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After a player mentioned all the things he would do should his current character die, I have considered killing him. Let me give some depth to the situation. We are playing in a custom campaign. The McGuffin is a god-dragon slaying gun spread throughout the world in pieces. Roughly 70% of our party is "pirates" and no one is a cleric or paladin. We are mostly neutral, with a little CG and one LE. There is currently a war with devilkind within the world and we recently escaped conscription. Now the player in question is playing a Vow of Poverty/Truth(Not exalted) monk Tortle(turtle people), and is one of the most annoying characters ever. He consistently tells enemy NPCs the entirety of our plans, insists on a complicated tier-based loot distribution methods, which includes giving it to random NPCs who happen to be nearby, and talks very, very, very, slowly, and in riddles. He has a habit of pissing off every friendly NPC and advocating doing anything that is not finding the McGuffin. After insulting my character's god and being racist to him, I have decided that I may allow him all he desires, by murdering his character in his sleep.
Any advice?
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Careful with your title. You mean to murder another Player Character.
Sounds like you may want to get the (secret) okay of the rest of the party before doing this. ... but with what you have described, that should not be difficult.
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I never considered it, until the conversation of his next character came to light. I am that LE character, and fight against the character's nature as to not kill him. The player usually hand waves his obnoxious behavior as staying true to the character. This too gives me desire to do it, as it is true to my character.
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Any advice?
Don't waste your time killing him. Simply leave him. Get the party up early one day and leave him there. If he somehow manages to find you, tell him he was fired with no severance pay, his services are no longer needed and he should find alternate employment.
If worst comes to worst stand him on an island somewhere and sail off. Your pirates so I assume you have a boat.
Seriously if he is not a friend of your characters in game the most logical thing to do is tell him to shove off.
If the player gets upset then stop the game and expain to him as calmly and maturely as possible why the character was not fitting into the group and why your characters decided to take that action. And remind him that the LE character could have simply killed him as he slept...
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If this were real life would you keep him in the party? RP kicking him out of the group. The fact that this is a game is no excuse to be annoying.
You can't RP being a jerk without expecting the consequences. That is metagaming of the worst kind.
I also suggest just leaving him out of the party, in party killings rarely end well.
Also if he is using PF's vow of poverty it wouldn't be all that hard to kill him if he doesn't want to leave, but try to send away his character first.
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I have tried to "accidentally" leave him behind, but failed. I am having a hard time coming up with a way to convince other characters of kicking him out. The other characters are "pirates" in the same way Jon Bon Jovi is a cowboy, and basically follow whoever is talking the loudest. I may convince them it's a great idea, but our turtle could immediately convince them of the opposite with little trouble.
A few options off the top of my head, assuming this guy is your friend? I basically see them splitting into in-game and out-of-game solutions:
-Talking to the player directly, out of game. Let him know he's annoying or that his character isn't working. This is the nice way.
(PS. What do the other PCs think of this guy?)
-Threaten the character, in game
-Frame the character for a crime and turn him in
-Make good on threat of violence without actually killing him (thus getting him to leave or chill-- whatever your goal is)
-"Frag" the character in combat by assuring his death without the blame or backlash
-Talk another PC into killing the guy for you
-Straight up murder the character, in game
-Straight up murder the player, out of game (no, not really.)
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Here are my Lawful Evil Suggestions.
After a player mentioned all the things he would do should his current character die, I have considered killing him.
Lets hope you are talking about his character,
Let me give some depth to the situation. We are playing in a custom campaign. The McGuffin is a god-dragon slaying gun spread throughout the world in pieces. Roughly 70% of our party is "pirates" and no one is a cleric or paladin. We are mostly neutral, with a little CG and one LE.
?? not that helpful
There is currently a war with devilkind within the world and we recently escaped conscription.
Get him conscripted.
Now the player in question is playing a Vow of Poverty/Truth(Not exalted) monk Tortle(turtle people)
Is this in any way relevant to your story?
He consistently tells enemy NPCs the entirety of our plans.
Those without tongues talk very little.
Insists on a complicated tier-based loot distribution methods.
Take what you want let him do whatever with whats left.
which includes giving it to random NPCs who happen to be nearby.
Take it back with extreme predudice
talks very, very, very, slowly, and in riddles.
Did I mention the tongue thing?
He has a habit of pissing off every friendly NPC and advocating doing anything that is not finding the McGuffin. After insulting my character's god
We keep coming back to the tounge thing
being racist to him
Return the favor x5
I have decided that I may allow him all he desires, by murdering his character in his sleep.
If you decide to kill, do it in style and make sure he is awake and knows exactly why you are doing it. Do not cheapen the experience for either of you.
Any advice?
Talk to your DM if it really is going to be a problem.
If the DM does nothing it may be time to find a new group with a better DM
Is this a game where the the game runs on PC time or do the bad guys move their plans forward no matter what you do.
As an example if the PC's randomly go off on a too many sidequest could they return to find their lack of actions have put the world in a very bad position?
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That's another problem, he is a friend, of a friend. I really do not know how to bring this idea up to him. As I said, he has really hand waved his in character behavior. He is an "actor"(that is what he does for a living) and he is merely acting out the part. It is also painfully obvious that his character pisses off my character. I have considered murdering his character in his sleep with a garrote, and telling the others he died during the night. I wish the frame up job suggestion would work, but we are all criminals right now. This is really the first game in which I have considered doing something like this.
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snapshot pretty much summed it up
also, if he's acting out his part act out yours. if your two characters are at odds rp call him out on it. if he refuses it sounds like you'd have party support on your side and you can show him what's what
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Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
Just wait for the right time in combat to "make a really bad decision" and leave him hanging somehow. It will eventually happen. Make sure you're ready when it does.
If you're a spellcaster,.....put the center of the fireball wrong.
If you're a melee type, leave him soloing something too tough while you try to "set up a flank" or something.
If you're a cleric,.....roll the healing dice too low or pick too low of a spell to do much good,.....something'll come up. THAT is what that saying from the Godfather means.
And be ready to play it off to the rest of the group.
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Is this a game where the the game runs on PC time or do the bad guys move their plans forward no matter what you do.
As an example if the PC's randomly go off on a too many sidequest could they return to find their lack of actions have put the world in a very bad position?
Bad guys are currently frantically searching for the McGuffin(after being informed by said character) and we are on a clock to beat them to it. I am trying to save the world, and I am the evil one.
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-Talking to the player directly, out of game. Let him know he's annoying or that his character isn't working. This is the nice way.
(PS. What do the other PCs think of this guy?)
-Threaten the character, in game
-Make good on threat of violence without actually killing him (thus getting him to leave or chill-- whatever your goal is)
Ditto. The best way really is to talk to him Ooc and get him to stop or at least be more considerate of you. However, most people who RP jerks are jerks outside of RP, so talking may not be an option. Especially if he knows he is being annoying, which as the "complicated tier-based loot distribution" shows may be the case.
If you can't make progress OoC and you still feel like playing in this game, you really will need the other PCs' support to axe another member of the party. Otherwise you may change from a PC to a recurring antagonist. Since you are all pirates, I recommend a scroll of Hideous Laughter and then pushing him off the side of a ship. Tortles have a swim speed, but they don't have the ability to breathe underwater. Especially not when they're laughing uncontrollably.
Of course, if it really is that annoying, you can always leave the game. Leaving a group sends a powerful message, and most people will rethink their ways (at least a little) if it happens enough. Make your reason for leaving clear in a polite and not overly spiteful or pissy way, then leave and don't come back until another player says that your problem player has changed his ways.
Please don't actually kill the player IRL. If you do, please don't implicate us as encouraging you. O_O
I would ask him riddles about things he's insecure about. While he's being hanged upside down with his hands cut off.
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Quietly tell the GM that what you're about to do isn't in character, then ask the player if one should stick to their character as close as possible. If he says yes, then tell him to roll a perception check. Since he will undoubtedly fail, tell him to make a DC xx Fortitude save. When he fails, tell him his character is dead.
If he asks why, say that you have tormented, annoyed, pissed off, and frustrated a Lawful EVIL character, and that any one of those things his character did would have ended in his death.
This is a Roleplay GAME not an audition for broadway. Sticking true to a character in Pathfinder can be annoying and piss off friends, it doesn't earn you a job in the next play.
Bad guys are currently frantically searching for the McGuffin(after being informed by said character) and we are on a clock to beat them to it. I am trying to save the world, and I am the evil one.
1: You never really explained why the world is in danger.
2: Why you care. " is this world really worth saving?"3: Why you all don't just pool your money and buy another "god-dragon slaying gun" that isn't broken?
4: What you are getting out of "saving the world"?
5: What makes you think you are evil?
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If I do kill him, I wish to do it quietly and with little question from other characters. The less connection I have to it, the preferable. As a side note, I do not even know if the player would be hurt by my actions. He seems more concerned about being the center of attention than anything else. I can feel murdering him working out, but I am new to this kind of thing.
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Bad guys are currently frantically searching for the McGuffin(after being informed by said character) and we are on a clock to beat them to it. I am trying to save the world, and I am the evil one.1: You never really explained why the world is in danger.
2: Why you care. " is this world really worth saving?"
3: Why you all don't just pool your money and buy another "god-dragon slaying gun" that isn't broken?
4: What you are getting out of "saving the world"?
5: What makes you think you are evil?
Sounds to me like a God-Dragon is threatening the world. He's in the world, so if the world is destroyed, he's destroyed to. Artifacts typically can't be bought, and need to be acquired. What is he getting? His life. Evil people want to live.
Seems a lot of people, in movies, cartoons, comics, etc. forget that Evil people live on the Earth so Evil people would not realistically destroy the Earth, while still living on it.
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Bad guys are currently frantically searching for the McGuffin(after being informed by said character) and we are on a clock to beat them to it. I am trying to save the world, and I am the evil one.1: You never really explained why the world is in danger.
2: Why you care. " is this world really worth saving?"
3: Why you all don't just pool your money and buy another "god-dragon slaying gun" that isn't broken?
4: What you are getting out of "saving the world"?
5: What makes you think you are evil?
1) The mentioned war with devilkind.
2) My character likes living.3) There is only one.
4) Staying alive, and owning a godslaying gun.
5) My goals are selfish, and I have already had to kill good NPCs the character in question pissed off to the point of wanting to kill/arrest us.
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Sheep and a thespian, with a studiously neutral DM, eh? I'm afraid the latter is your actual antagonist. A DM paying close attention would see the trouble brewing and introduce a plot hook to get the thespian moving in the right direction. A DM more focused on telling his story at the expense of player choice would railroad you all in a direction you desire. Instead, he's letting the players make the call.
In that case, I'd start publicly investigating the price of selling a Turtle humanoid into slavery. Haggle over prices, make side deals on equipment, try to find a "gentle master" for his own good. Don't actually sell him, just be window shopping. Make sure to be overheard by the player of the turtle. Goad him into an action that will have the DM and the players on your side.
You will WIN this fight, yes? Because I assume you'd tell us if you actually needed the surprise round to win this fight.
Alternatively, just turn to the player the next time he antagonizes you and ask him, "So, have you thought about why I shouldn't kill you right now?" Have a civilized conversation, as if you're not in the least bit angry. Watch a little Downton Abbey to get the right spirit of the thing.
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Seems a lot of people, in movies, cartoons, comics, etc. forget that Evil people live on the Earth so Evil people would not realistically destroy the Earth, while still living on it.
My favorite quote from Loki (thor comics) after Surtur demanded to know why he betrayed him to side with asgard in the end.
"It became obvious to me as time went on that your true goal was not the toppling of Asgard which i could readily agree to, but the total destruction of everything! Why aspire to be lord of all i survey when all that i can see is a burned out cinder? Nay i say."
Bad guys are currently frantically searching for the McGuffin(after being informed by said character) and we are on a clock to beat them to it. I am trying to save the world, and I am the evil one.1: You never really explained why the world is in danger.
2: Why you care. " is this world really worth saving?"
3: Why you all don't just pool your money and buy another "god-dragon slaying gun" that isn't broken?
4: What you are getting out of "saving the world"?
5: What makes you think you are evil?
1) The mentioned war with devil-kind.
What does the god-dragon have to do with a war with devil-kind? Will killing it stop the war or just make winning a possibility?
2) My character likes living.
Be on the winning side. That may not be the one you are currently on.
3) There is only one.
Are you sure? or is that just what you were told. Never hurts to check.
4) Staying alive, and owning a godslaying gun.
"owning a godslaying gun." [Smiles] Now that's a payoff.
5) My goals are selfish, and I have already had to kill good NPCs the character in question pissed off to the point of wanting to kill/arrest us.
That just makes you human not evil
if he is a tortle and not a ninja he doesn't deserve to live that class was invented for one thing and one thing only 90's pop references. and playing a teenage ninja tortle.
also you could make him break a bunch of his vows? put diamonds in his pocket,
write the word "black" in red ink and ask him what color it is no matter what he says he is wrong.
If it helps, my character is unarmed fighter lizardfolk with a charismatic personality and a southern gentleman air. I have managed to clean up quite few messes of his with either diplomacy, or murder.
I want to steal that so badly!!!!!!! why your honor I may just be a simple country lizard .....
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If it helps, my character is unarmed fighter lizardfolk with a charismatic personality and a southern gentleman air. I have managed to clean up quite few messes of his with either diplomacy, or murder.I want to steal that so badly!!!!!!! why your honor I may just be a simple country lizard .....
You have my go ahead. I am honored to be copied in any way.
If it helps, my character is unarmed fighter lizardfolk with a charismatic personality and a southern gentleman air. I have managed to clean up quite few messes of his with either diplomacy, or murder.
My apologies I seem to have derailed the original question.
Lets not turn this into another philosophy debate on evil.It seems your character is more a 'knife in the dark' character, go with it, if not diplomacy on to option two.
I've had on the occasion the difficulty of being actively encouraged to kill my party members as well. First and foremost resist it as best you can by metagaming by appealing to the dm, the spirit of the setting, and the other pcs. Now after you've tried everything else, or you really really want to, kill him.
I highly highly recommend chatting with both the pc and the dm first. Ask the pc to tone it down a bit and explain that his acting is placing a heavy burden on your character. Should he refuse appeal to the dm. Should the dm stay decidedly neutral ask him about how he feels about pcs murdering other pcs. If he is adamantly against it then you have a whole different problem. If he stays neutral then consider killing him. Before doing so consider the odds of getting caught by the rest of the party and the cost of resurrection. In more than one party I've played in we had a rule that if a pc died as a direct result of another players actions then the murderer had to pay resurrection costs or suffer summary execution. Plan accordingly and make sure that you're ready to roll some great bluff checks for when the sun comes up the following day.
As a side plan its perfectly okay to hire someone in the next town to kill him and after they do so kill them in turn while "defending" the party.
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Actually, the assassin idea sounds good. I think it is going to be hard though with the jumping island to island, village to village. I figured his bumbling through diplomatic blunders would have him killed by now, but his only asset seems to be the occasional great luck. This is one of the many reasons why I have considered assassinating him myself.
It seems the group is not taking the plot seriously and that is what is annoying you also. The GM needs to start showing consequences for not taking the bad guys seriously.
I am thinking the other players know/believe the GM won't really allow them to fail.
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The GM has been hinting at the consequences of ignoring the massive God/Dragon lead devil army, but a number of our characters are quick to forget. I play with most of the same crew in a Star Wars Saga game, so I know they know players die, it happens. There are at least two players who I believe have no social contact outside of tabletop games, but they are easygoing. They may not know how to react.
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Just stab a dagger into the character's chest, hold him as he die and when the other players ask why...
break down, break down and cry in front of them.
Tell them you don't mean it, but you have to... you just have too..
(Please act this all out. Show the player he's not the only actor at the table.)
If I do kill him, I wish to do it quietly and with little question from other characters. The less connection I have to it, the preferable. As a side note, I do not even know if the player would be hurt by my actions. He seems more concerned about being the center of attention than anything else. I can feel murdering him working out, but I am new to this kind of thing.
Then, in my opinion, you shouldn't do it.
Things like this can upset people. Conflict between PCs is something that needs to be talked through in advance. It might work out fine, but why take the risk? It might end up splitting the group as well.
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Just stab a dagger into the character's chest, hold him as he die and when the other players ask why...
break down, break down and cry in front of them.
Tell them you don't mean it, but you have to... you just have too..
(Please act this all out. Show the player he's not the only actor at the table.)
Hah, of course I could always take him out to a field with a rabbit to pet. All joking aside, I will keep the acting portion of your suggestion in mind. I may find a way to make his excuses, my excuses, his weapons, my weapons.
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I see what you are saying Steve, but my meaning is that I believe he does not actually care if his character dies. That he only cares that he is in the game, and in the spotlight.
You mean like how Gandalf the Grey was in the "spotlight" as he stand on that stone bridge? Facing off the balrog? Alone?
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I see what you are saying Steve, but my meaning is that I believe he does not actually care if his character dies. That he only cares that he is in the game, and in the spotlight.You mean like how Gandalf the Grey was in the "spotlight" as he stand on that stone bridge? Facing off the balrog? Alone?
No one really kills Gandalf, they just inconvenience him.
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I never considered it, until the conversation of his next character came to light. I am that LE character, and fight against the character's nature as to not kill him. The player usually hand waves his obnoxious behavior as staying true to the character. This too gives me desire to do it, as it is true to my character.
And this is precisely why you should not do it. It won't solve anything. Because it is not the character who is obnoxious. It is the player.
He gives away loot, divides it up against your wishes, tries to run the plot off the rails, etc. All classic antics of a disruptive player. He's going to act this way no matter what he plays.
That said, you have little sympathy from me. In my experience, players running evil characters have most of the same bad habits as disruptive players, all the way down to using the "just playing my alignment" excuse. The fact you are here looking fir justification for killing his character is pretty damning.
I wouldn't want to play with either of you.
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If it helps, my character is unarmed fighter lizardfolk with a charismatic personality and a southern gentleman air.
"You Sirh have offended my honour. Ah demand a duel." *Sound of lizard gauntlet hitting turtle monk.*
If he accepts, murder him to death.
If he declines never listen to him again:
"Why did the road cross the chicken..."
"Silence useless coward."
Also, why are you guys letting someone with a vow of poverty figure out the loot distribution? Everyone I know who has a hobo do their finances is a hobo.
Lastly, coming from much older editions and styles, sure go ahead and kill his character. But make sure you are ready to take at least one other PC out as establishing the pecking order of a party is never quick and easy. Also expect to have to do it often, leveling up or new characters joining etc.
1. What exactly do your LE character beliefs entail?
2. If devils are trying to take over the planet I doubt they will destroy everyone. Devil's don't work like that. If your character realizes that his current companions are unwilling or unable to handle the threat then maybe it is time for you to start playing for the winning team. I would make sure that only the GM knows about this though.
It seems that the other player might be doing this already, why else distract you from the Macguffin. Even if that is not the case it is a good in-character argument that you believed it to be true so you made sure to have an out if that were the case.
Are you sure the problem is your fellow player?
If I understand correctly he is constantly annoying everyone around him and puting the party success in danger, so this character (and possibly player, too) should be the hate-object of all. Well, then get rid of him and tell him to leave the party. This can be supported by talking about Off-Game (nice, of course).
As he seems to be new to your group (it is his first character) and maybe also new to roleplaying in general talking about group harmony could be very helpful. Since this guy puts a lot of efforts in characterplay which in itself is a good thing and often neglected for efficiency reasons maybe all he needs is good advice.
The best thing to do would be a player & gm meeting at the local pub or something (neutral zone) and a discussion about your (ie: all of you) preferred game-/characterplay. Could be interesting to know if your fellow players are fine with your character, too?
If, on the other hand, your gm and group are ok by his character-actions leave the group because your style of play differs currently too much - later rejoin should always be an option.
Never, ever do kill a fellow player, this can only lead to trouble and very probably might break the group altogether. Also I find threats and other ingame not-niceties rather irritating (as player), because it forces the group to side with one or the other and result in a breakup .
Ingame I see a problem in murdering as your character is LE, which in itself is not an excuse in killing annoying people (See also: CE), in fact that is the way a lawful character certainly won't choose. More the like in tipping of the local authorities and give him fair warning in advance so he can (barely) flee for good [couldn' resist]; or would if your warning were only be in time, but alas!, mail delivery is not as it used to be...
But all depends very much on your exact group situation and as it is sometimes difficult to see things unbiased the best idea is a group sit-in to sort things out and to get the right picture of how your fellow players (plus gm) respond to your uneasiness.
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I am not looking for justification, I am looking for resolution. I have played evil characters in the past without pissing off a single player. This is why I have been given the okay time after time by GMs when I do choose to play evil characters. Evil does not equal jerk, you do not need to be evil to be a jerk. I like the idea of murdering the character, but would like to do it in a way in which my fellow players are cool with. Any advice to get players/characters to be cool with this is appreciated as well. If there is no way that is possible, then I am still open to other suggestions.