Negative Energy Affinity & Channel (FAQ Request Thread)


Rules Questions

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Ok,
The purpose of this thread is to give a single place for everyone to FAQ this, since it keeps coming up.

Situation :

A creature (such as Dhampir) has Negative Energy Affinity.

Negative Energy Affinity wrote:


Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature alive, but reacts to positive and negative energy as if it were undead—positive energy harms it, negative energy heals it.

It's fairly straight forward what happens if you cast cure or inflict on it (the former damages, while the later heals). In other words, the normal effects of positive/negative energy are reversed.

The issue comes up with Channel.

There are four situations with channeling.

Target type (Living vs Undead).
Purpose (harm vs heal).

So, here's the issue. The NEA creature is still alive (this is explicitly called out in the power). So one of the two following situations occurs :

A) The creature, being alive, can only be a valid channel target when the channel target's Living Creatures. Thus, if you channel to heal living (using positive energy) the NEA creature is a valid target. And, from the other side, if you channel to harm living (using negative energy) the NEA creature is also a valid target. In this situation, the NEA kicks in and reverses the intent of the channel (the channel to heal harms, and the channel to harm heals). In this situation, if the channel is targeting undead (which the creature is not), they are unaffected, the same as any non NEA creature.

B) The creature, having NEA, reacts to channels as if it were playing for team Undead. That is, it can't be targeted by channels that target living creatures, only channels that target Undead creatures. Thus, a channel to harm undead (positive energy) affects the NEA creature by harming him. And conversely, a channel to heal undead (negative energy) heals him. In this situation, no channel targeting living creatures affects him.

C) The creature, having NEA, is treated as both alive and undead at all times. This means that any positive energy channel harms, regardless of target. Conversely, any negative energy channel heals, regardless of target.

Now, there are ramifications to each.

A) An NEA player character (such as dhampir) becomes a liability if the team includes a cleric or paladin, who can channel to heal allies, because they will be harmed.

B) An NEA character cannot be harmed by their allies channels to heal with positive energy, and they can also heal themselves and their undead minions (if they have any) with negative energy channels. It also means the creature must show up as Undead to detect undead and other such abilities, since they are targetable as undead.

C) This returns just this subset of characters to the beta version of channel, which was considered too powerful originally, and would lower the CR of any creature with NEA.

Please FAQ the OP so we can get an FAQ clarification of this rule.


As a note, I started off on the position (A). However, after rereading and having discussions on the boards, I've moved to position (B). The plain reading of NEA only talks about changing how the person reacts to positive/negative energy, not how channel targeting works, nor does it say they are treated as undead for anything other than how they react to positive and negative energy. That seems to me to rule out A, as that would require reading a lot of un-stated changes into the channeling targeting rules (which would affect spells like detect undead as well).

Scarab Sages

James Jacobs (Creative Director) 24 seconds ago FLAG | LIST | REPLY

+
Black Lotus wrote:
SO HOW does damphar and negtive energy thingy work?

The dhampir is treated as if it were undead as regards channeled energy. If you're healing living creatures, it doesn't get healed. If you're healing undead, it gets healed. If you're hurting undead, it gets hurt. If your hurting living creatures, it doesn't get hurt.


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Except that James has said his answers are not FAQ or official, only how he would run it. Which means that we are still not having an official response. Unless his stance has changed and his answers are now official cannon (which would be odd since about half his answers run counter to the FAQs).

Per Sean, Jason and James, official answers on the rules come from Jason/Sean with input from all the Devs.

This is not a slam at James, it's only pointing out that he himself has said he is not an official response on rules questions. If James's answer is the official response, then the ability needs to be errata'd to say that, as currently, it doesn't say that at all, it says quite the opposite in fact.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'm very interested in the answer to this. I understood it to be (B), and deliberately chose to make my RPG Superstar item (Cloak of Energy Reversal) function like (A) instead, thinking it would be simpler. Apparently, though, my intended simplicity did not come across. :P

Liberty's Edge

Very clear exposition. FAQed.

There has been any consensus on how healing from the paladin Lay On Hands work for NEA character?


Nothing in the FAQ, although Sean did post that it is the intention of the Dev's that LoH's is Positive Energy, so it would harm a dhampir if used on them. I don't have the quote at hand, but searching his posts for Paladin should find it fairly easily.


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I would love to see positive/negative energy crap gone. A big plus from me to 4th edition for ridding of that and introducing radiant and necrotic damage types instead and turning healing into healing.

Why I have the feeling that I posted that before? *shrug*
FAQed

Sovereign Court

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Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature alive, but reacts to positive and negative energy as if it were undead—positive energy harms it, negative energy heals it.

It seems pretty cut and dried that B is the correct answer.

Aka, yes the NEA (or Oracle of Bones, or any other 'reversi' character) count as alive in all ways except when subject to channeling, when he's considered undead instead.

So... When channeling, the creature counts as undead. So with positive energy, a heal simply ignores the Dhampir. (a dhampir cleric can channel positive energy for a heal and doesn't even need to exclude himself, he'll just be ignored by the effect) A harm undead channel harms him, even though he's living. With negative energy, an undead heal heals him. With a living nuke, he's ignored.

I'm more than familiar with the paladin LOH/NEA thread.. I'm the 'muchkin/rules laywer/or worse' who started it.

Even I'm not saying LOH can heal undead (or dhampirs) anymore, in light of the admission that while RAW it might work, the RAI was that it did not (and that the rules could be written a ton more watertight).

The LOH and NEA thread is here.

The Dev's perspective (and a NEA/Healing sister thread) can be found here.

I find that the question that still is unresolved and FAQ-worthy is whether heals that don't say they're positive energy besides LOH are ALSO considered positive energy. Can a dhampir heal via goodberries? Monk Wholeness of Body? Celestial Sorcerer bloodline ability? etc, etc, etc.


Except that the power doesn't say that. It says he reacts to the energy as if undead, not that he counts as undead. Reacting to power means 'when the power hits me' not 'when the cleric decides whether or not to channel vs living or undead' and thus the reason for this thread.

Sovereign Court

Well, I do love a good semantics discussion.

There IS a road to go down by bringing up the concept of a timing error between the cleric deciding how to target his channel, and the NEA/Reversi character receiving the hit. But IMO that road doesn't go very far.

Namely, because inferring that there IS any delay or sequential nature to the two has no basis elsewhere in the magic rules (or even in the entire game engine, that I'm recalling)

So if no other effect in the entire game of pathfinder first acquires a target, then resolves the effect, why would channel energy?


What does timing have to do with it?

Channel is very explicit, you can only target living or undead targets, not both.

A NEA is not undead, it's living. That's explicitly stated. So how are you going to target something that's alive with a channel that only affects undead. The NEA does not say the NEA creature is undead, or even is treated as undead, it only says they react as if undead. That is a big difference within the rules.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm looking forward to seeing what the official ruling is on this one.

Sovereign Court

Well if we agree that NEA/Reversi 'reacts as if undead', under what justification would they NOT react as if undead?

Are you saying that because the rule says they are living, and react as if undead, it means that the two clauses combine to cancel each other out?

If so, you can look at that wording and look at the fallout. That means they're unaffected by any channel that doesn't affect both living and undead. Which means, none. And gameplay wise, you think that's really what they mean?

Because you can just as easily decide to comprehend the language another way (reasoning B you mentioned) and not only is it less 'stretchy', much more sensible game-play wise.

Which would you think is more of what was intended? :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

They react as undead to only positive and negative energy. Anything else treats them as living.

Sovereign Court

Upon further thought, I'll reiterate my view another way.

If a cleric channels positive energy to harm undead, he's not excplicitly targeting each undead NPC in his aoe. He's just doing the aoe and all undead inside it are hit.

NAE/Reversi's are living characters, but inside the aoe and 'reacting as if undead', thus taking damage. They were never excplicitly targetted, so the question of whether they are alive is moot.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Again, they do not react to channeling as undead, only positive/negative energy.

If there wasn't a metagame division between who gets affected by channeling, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Anyone in the area of effect would react, not just one or the other.


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That´s why Channel must go back as it was on Beta!

No targeting issues!

*Teleports away*


mdt wrote:
Except that the power doesn't say that. It says he reacts to the energy as if undead, not that he counts as undead. Reacting to power means 'when the power hits me' not 'when the cleric decides whether or not to channel vs living or undead' and thus the reason for this thread.

"When the power hits me." I like that. So when the power to heal living creatures hits the Dhampir, he reacts like he's undead and it does not affect him. When the power to harm undead hits the Dhampir he reacts like he's undead and takes damage.

The cleric doesn't "target" Channel Energy, he merely selects how he's channeling, bursts, and the relevant creatures are affected.

There's no room for misinterpretation, there's only one way it could work, and everyone already knows which way that is, so there's no need for a FAQ.

Also, NEA says nothing about detecting as undead when observed with Detect Undead. I don't know where you even get that.

Edit: Channeling uses positive or negative energy. It says right there in the description. How one could miss that is beyond me.


Quantum Steve wrote:


The cleric doesn't "target" Channel Energy, he merely selects how he's channeling, bursts, and the relevant creatures are affected.

That's the issue Steve. He selects that he's affecting undead. A dhampir is not undead, it's alive. The NEA says it's alive, but reacts to the energy as if undead. So he's not a valid target for channeling to affect undead (either healing or harming), he's only a valid target for channeling to affect living.

See why an FAQ is needed? Everyone on this thread is absolutely convinced there interpretation is correct, and there's no way anyone could read it the other way. Which means it needs an FAQ entry.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Quantum Steve wrote:
"When the power hits me." I like that. So when the power to heal living creatures hits the Dhampir, he reacts like he's undead and it does not affect him. When the power to harm undead hits the Dhampir he reacts like he's undead and takes damage.

The power to harm undead never hits the dhampir, because NEA doesn't change the creature type.

Sovereign Court

You're having one of the same issues I had.

There IS NO targetting with channel. The positive (or negative) energy is just emitted.. the only 'targetting' is the choice of whether the energy is going to affect living or undead.

The fact that the NEA/Reversi is alive is really, truly moot. As far as positive/negative energy goes, if they're in the AOE of a channel, they take it as undead.

EDIT:
Targetting and channeling: Really, the ONLY targetting that's going on is the reverse of what you're thinking... the Selective Channel feat! THAT targets.. by way of shielding X number of characters from the all-encompassing emanation of positive/negative energy ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

And a NEA is not an undead, and not affected by channels selected for undead.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Quantum Steve wrote:
There's no room for misinterpretation, there's only one way it could work, and everyone already knows which way that is, so there's no need for a FAQ.

I'm afraid this doesn't inspire much confidence in your reading ability, and by extension your ability to accurately gauge the clarity of a given rule. The fact that you're even posting in this thread proves that there are differing interpretations.


I don't understand how it can be moot whether something is alive or undead when the power specifically says it only affects one or the other, not both. Unless you're saying that Dhampir's are following (C), and they get affected by energy no matter how it's emitted. I find nothing in the rules to support that stance.

Sovereign Court

Well, at least some posters are hell-bent on insisting that the rules are hopelessy unclear.

I find it ironic as I'm sure there have been threads where others thought the same of me! :D

If you'll never be convinced until a FAQ comes, good luck to ya. Seriously. I've been there.

But in the meantime, be prepared for most GMs to accede with the already stated opinion (even if it is technically only a forum post(s)) of the Paizo staff.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

mdt wrote:
I don't understand how it can be moot whether something is alive or undead when the power specifically says it only affects one or the other, not both. Unless you're saying that Dhampir's are following (C), and they get affected by energy no matter how it's emitted. I find nothing in the rules to support that stance.

Basically, it comes down to whether or not a given reader knows the difference between how X is affected by Y and whether X is affected by Y, when it's not spelled out using either of those two particular words.

Grand Lodge

Well, This may be a bit off, But If you look at the Half-orc/elf they count as both human and elf/orc. taking that into account I'd say they count as both alive and undead. Channel positive energy around them and they get whacked.


CrankyRWMage wrote:
Well, This may be a bit off, But If you look at the Half-orc/elf they count as both human and elf/orc. taking that into account I'd say they count as both alive and undead. Channel positive energy around them and they get whacked.

If that's the intent, then the NEA needs to be errata'd to make it specific, since that's an exception to the general rule that Channel can only target something alive or something dead, and not both at the same time.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

CrankyRWMage wrote:
Well, This may be a bit off, But If you look at the Half-orc/elf they count as both human and elf/orc. taking that into account I'd say they count as both alive and undead. Channel positive energy around them and they get whacked.

Because "counts as both X and Y" and "acts like X" obviously mean the same thing.

/sarcasm

Grand Lodge

more like is Y and acts like X. "Acts like" and "counts as" then become the issue.


I don't see the confusion.

Negative energy heals undead and positive energy harms undead. That's how it works. Those NEA react as undead so negative energy heals them and positive harms them. Pretty straight forward.

Now channel positive energy can be directed at living or undead. So if targets undead those with NEA are not undead so no effect. If it targets living those with NEA are harmed by this as they are living but react as though they were undead, see above. For Channel Negative Energy the reverse is true, hitting living targets with negative energy harms them but the living target with NEA is healed.

Where is the confusion?


voska66 wrote:


Where is the confusion?

The confusion is over whether the NEA causes them to be treated like Undead for purposes of channel targeting. Again, not my theory (anymore) but it's not an unreasonable interpretation given how many people subscribe to it. I would just like an FAQ to confirm which way it should work so I know whether I'm houseruling or not (I like to make sure my players know my houserules up front if I can).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
voska66 wrote:
Where is the confusion?

There isn't any, just a lot of not-confused-at-all people who know they are right and disagree with each other. :)


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unopened wrote:
That´s why Channel must go back as it was on Beta!

That's what I did, and I'm glad of it every time something like this comes up.


mdt wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


The cleric doesn't "target" Channel Energy, he merely selects how he's channeling, bursts, and the relevant creatures are affected.

That's the issue Steve. He selects that he's affecting undead. A dhampir is not undead, it's alive. The NEA says it's alive, but reacts to the energy as if undead. So he's not a valid target for channeling to affect undead (either healing or harming), he's only a valid target for channeling to affect living.

See why an FAQ is needed? Everyone on this thread is absolutely convinced there interpretation is correct, and there's no way anyone could read it the other way. Which means it needs an FAQ entry.

See, there's that word "target" again. Stop using it, it doesn't belong. Channel Energy doesn't target anything, it justs affects all the creatures of the appropriate type in its area of effect.

So, if you Channel Energy to affect living creatures, in order to be affected, a creature must pass a test: "Is the creature living?" If yes, then effect, if no, then no effect. Is a Dhampir living, yes, BUT! it reacts to positive and negative energy (which Channel Energy is) as if it were undead. So it gets affected.

I can see where you're coming from, I think. You're saying that since a Dhampir is alive, the burst won't even check to see if the Dhampir is alive or not. Although, maybe that's not what you're saying at all seeing as it doesn't make any sense.

If possible, could you link me to a thread where this is discussed? With people defending their interpretations, not just arguing that they're confused.

Jiggy wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
There's no room for misinterpretation, there's only one way it could work, and everyone already knows which way that is, so there's no need for a FAQ.

I'm afraid this doesn't inspire much confidence in your reading ability, and by extension your ability to accurately gauge the clarity of a given rule. The fact that you're even posting in this thread proves that there are differing interpretations.

Heh. All this thread proves is two things.

One is that there are people (myself included) who don't really care what they argue about, and will argue with anyone about anything.

The other is that there are people (myself not included) who want the Devs to create an intricate FAQ expounding the one true way to play Pathfinder.

I sometimes get a little heated when it comes to members of the latter groups, because I feel that FAQing every minutia of the game infringes on my duty as a GM to interpret the rules as I see fit for my table (or tables if I happen to be organizing a group event).


Well if we go we JJ's method of interpretation, at least that means the Dhampir is not a group liability unless you are fighting undead.


Quantum Steve wrote:


So, if you Channel Energy to affect living creatures, in order to be affected, a creature must pass a test: "Is the creature living?" If yes, then effect, if no, then no effect. Is a Dhampir living, yes, BUT! it reacts to positive and negative energy (which Channel Energy is) as if it were undead. So it gets affected.

This is the issue here, honestly.

Channel Energy says you have to choose whether to affect living targets, or undead targets. You can't channel to affect both. Doesn't matter what type of energy you're choosing to channel, you have to make that choice when you are choose to channel.

Cleric : I channel energy to harm undead.

Is the dhampir undead? No? He's not affected.

Cleric : I channel energy to heal living.

Is the dhampir living? Yes? He's affected.

Now that we know when he's affected, what is the result of the affect? The Dhampir reverses the normal effect, so he's harmed by positive, and harmed by negative. It's not the channel Affect that's reversed, it's the energy effect that's reversed.

it works the same way the other way around.

Cleric : I channel energy to heal undead.

Is the dhampir undead? No? He's not affected.

Cleric : I channel energy to harm living.

Is the dhampir living? Yes? He's affected.


The way I read it, not that one more person makes a difference, is that here are two types of channel-blasts:

1)Undead-Affecting

2)Living-Affecting.

Since the dhampir is reacts to positive energy "as if it were undead,"
only the first type (Undead-Affecting) would affect them, right?

NOTE: I am not at any point claiming that a dhampir is ACTUALLY undead, only that channeled energy affects them as if they were.


@shiiktan

See above. Nobody is arguing that positive energy heals a dhampir. The question is the difference between what affects him with the channel, and what effect the affect has on him. It's the effect of the energy that is reversed, not whether an undead channel affects him (it doesn't, he's not undead).


I think you missed what I was saying. Maybe it comes from playing MTG a lot and arguing over targeting vs. area effects, but nowhere in the channel energy entry does it say that the channeling cleric "targets" undead or living.

He just releases either a "wave of soothing positive energy" that can heal the living, or a "wave of punishing light" that damages the undead.

Since the dhampir reacts to the energy as if he was undead, shouldn't the "punishing" wave be the one that affects him?

EDIT: The entry does mention "creatures targeted" - but since it is a "positive/negative energy" effect, I think the dhampir gets dropped in the undead camp for the purposes of the AoE.


I think some people need to read the channel ability a bit closer, as people keep saying the Cleric doesn't target living or undead.

PRD wrote:


Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric casts spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).

Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channeled energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect. A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.

I'm not sure how people can say a cleric doesn't choose to target living or undead targets when he channels. It's right there in the power.


@shiiktan

So, you think that NEA means the dhampir get's bucketed into the 'undead' camp for channels?

Then if I have a spell like disrupt undead, which says it can only target undead, can I target a dhampir? He is not undead (he is humanoid (dhampir), and does not have the undead subtype). That seems like quite a stretch, that NEA applies 'undead' as a subtype.

If that was the intent, wouldn't the NEA specifically say 'gains the undead subtype, even though it remains alive'? If the intent was that NEA means you get hit by everything that specifically targets undead, wouldn't the dev's have added something like that?


Disrupt Undead says:

You direct a ray of "positive energy". You must make a ranged touch attack to hit, and if the ray hits an undead creature, it deals 1d6 points of damage to it.

Nothing in the text indicates that it couldn't be aimed at a living dhampir. He would, however react to it as if he was undead, since it is a positive energy effect.


since disrupt undead fires a ray of positive energy that is harmful to undead creatures I would think that it would indeed affect a creature with NEA, even though it does not have the undead type.


For the purposes of any "positive/negative energy" effect, the dhampir essentially DOES gain the Undead subtype, although detect undead, which does not employ positive energy, still would not register him.


Ok, Disrupt is a bad example. How about Detect Undead?


As I stated above, since Detect Undead makes no mention of positive energy, it treats the dhampir as a living creature.

(Also, if this post sounds snarky, I apologize. Perhaps my post about Detect hadn't popped yet.)


shiiktan wrote:

As I stated above, since Detect Undead makes no mention of positive energy, it treats the dhampir as a living creature.

(Also, if this post sounds snarky, I apologize. Perhaps my post about Detect hadn't popped yet.)

It had not.

Again though, you are reading more into the power than is stated. All NEA says is that when a vampire is effected by positive/negative, they react as if undead. It doesn't say they can be targeted as if undead.

Here's nother one, BANE. Bane (Undead). A bane weapon against undead doesn't affect a dhampir, because he doesn't have the Undead subtype. A channel vs undead doesn't affect the dhampir, because again, he's not undead. He's alive. Any positive/negative affect that does affect the dhampir is treated as if he were undead. So if you channel to heal living, you damage a dhampir. If you channel to harm living, you heal a dhampir.


Posting the massive block is unnecessary - but as long as we're quoting rules, nowhere in the entire Undead entry you just posted (and I triple-checked this time) does it mention positive energy harming them.

It's a common sense thing, the NEA entry says it reacts "to positive and negative energy" as if it was undead. It's not undead for other purposes.

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