Plethora of Tripping Dex-based Flowing Monk Questions!


Rules Questions


There are a lot of interesting interactions between the feats and abilities of a flowing monk that aren't entirely clear... I'm sure I'll come up with more ambiguities when I actually start playing this character, but here's a several rules questions that seem unclear, along with my interpretation of how they work. I've found a few short threads related to this topic, but nothing comprehensive. If anyone thinks my interpretation is wrong, please let me know!

1. Redirection - takes place before the attack occurs, correct? So I do not take damage from it. Do I get to see the "incoming" attack's roll or outcome first, or do I just get to know that I was about to be attacked and by who? I would think I just know who is attacking me.

2. More on Redirection - What can they do after getting tripped? Say they get redirection-tripped, and I have vicious stomp, with Unbalancing Counter they are now prone and maybe flat footed and sickened. Have they used their standard action yet? Does the attack "fizzle"? Do they have to continue with the attack they were making, or, if they hadn't taken any other actions yet, can they instead stand up and attack? I would probably go with the least penalizing here... which is that they didn't use their standard action and could potentially stand up and single-attack, if my trip did in fact take place "before" their attack.

3. Trip + Vicious Stomp + Flurry + Unbalancing Counter - If I trip in the middle of a flurry, vicious stomp gets resolved in the middle of a flurry, then I go back to finish my flurry where I left off, but now against a prone, and potentially flat footed opponent?

4. More on Vicious Stomp - based on the wording, I assume this takes place after they are prone. It's just a little weird because normally AOOs take place right before whatever provokes them, but here it's pretty clearly intended to be after (so +4 on the AOO).

5. Trip as attack of opportunity - Related to #2... say I do a trip as an AOO, but lets say they are in the middle of a 30' move. I trip, they use a move action to stand up. Is that the end of their turn, since they have used two move actions, or do they get the rest of their original movement? I know you can't attack in the middle of a move, but idk about a move action (stand up) in the "middle" of a move. I would assume their turn is over, unless I was tripping them on their very first 5' of movement, in which case no movement took place before the trip.

6. Unbalancing Counter + Vicious Stomp - It says "until the end of your next turn", which is very clear for an AOO that occurs outside of my turn, but what about an AOO in the middle of my turn, such as Vicious Stomp? RAW would make me think it really means next turn, but that just seems a little too powerful, so I'm wondering if there's any other precedent for exactly what "next turn" means in this situation. Would it instead only last until the end of my current turn?

7. Flurry on the Fly - I'm assuming there's nothing wrong with me deciding what I'm going to do (trip vs damage) as I go along, and that I don't have to "declare" ahead of time which attacks will be trips and which will be damage. So my plan right now is to keep trying to trip until I succeed, do my vicious stomp, then continue my flurry with unarmed damaging attacks.

8. Qinggong + Other archetypes - Not directly concerning flowing monk, but any reason you can't combine qinggong with other archetypes it "overlaps" with? As long as you don't pick up the qinggong abilities when that ability is being replaced by other archetypes.

9. powerattack (via qinggong) +trip flurry- is there any reason I can't activate power attack AFTER my first successful trip in a flurry, in order to avoid the cmb penalty on my flurry-trips? This would still, of course, hurt my AOO trips between turns. Power attack just says it has to be "before an attack roll", it doesn't actually say it has to be at the start of a full round attack. This seems legit by RAW, just seems to go against how I normally think of power attack, and feels weird :)

If anyone is curious, here's my rather stupid looking monk, as I really dumped a LOT of stats (3 7s!) to get this one-trick pony to work :) assuming no one here points out something critical that makes this non-functional...:

15 Point Buy - STR: 7 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 14 CHA: 7
Race: Vanara http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Vanara
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha

Favored Class points into HP.
Skill points in Perception and Acrobatics
Equipment: Kama, ***Amulet of Mighty Fists (Agile) ASAP***, enhancement bonuses on the kama eventually for better trips, damage bonuses on the amulet, magic fang and enlarge cast on me however I can get it. standard monk gear otherwise.

Archetype:
Flowing
Sacred Mountain (gl rp'ing this w/ flowing...)
Qinggong-Power Attack (1 ki, free action) instead of Purity of Body, use as soon as I get a trip off during my flurry)
Probably take truth, and maybe silent vow

Level 1 Feats:
Weapon Finesse-allows dex for trip CMB when replacing kama weapon attack
Improved Trip
Trait-Bullied - +1 on my trip and stomp AOO attacks
Trait-Boarded in Shackles - +1 Fort save, doing Serpent's Skull

L3 - Combat Reflexes
L5 - Vicious Stomp
L6 - Dodge
L7,9,11 - Crane Style Series
L10 - Improved Reposition
Haven't planned anything past this point... might not even get past level 5 with this guy...

As explained in my questions, the basic plan would be to use AOO's to trip and the start of my flurry to trip, and kick the crap out of anything on the ground... damage will be SUPER terrible until I get agile neck, but should be pretty nice after that. Being enlarged won't hurt or help my trip cmb, so I'll probably do that for reach+damage.

Normally when I come across a build who's mechanics are as ambiguous as this, I'd just do something else instead (I'm looking at you, Beast-bonded witch...) but this idea seems pretty fun, so hopefully it makes sense the way I've read it.


Are there any RP reasons for all of these choices or are they mutable for the sake of the trick?


Jen the GM wrote:
Are there any RP reasons for all of these choices or are they mutable for the sake of the trick?

I realize that I've got a lot going on w/ the archetypes, and I may or may nor end up dropping the stuff other than Flowing Monk, but that's not really relevant to the questions. All of these issues come up even for a straightforward dex-based flowing monk w/ vicious stomp who aoo's a lot, trips stuff, kicks the crap out of it while its on the ground, which I wouldn't consider a particularly complicated build.


I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I was just wondering if you were set on certain elements of the build or whether they were mutable to make it work.


What is there to "make work"? With the way I've interpreted the rules, everything works as intended. But then that's why I'm posting :) to see if anyone has a problem with my interpretation.


oneplus999 wrote:
I'm posting to see if anyone has a problem with my interpretation.

It only matters if your GM has a problem with your interpretation.

Grand Lodge

Are you looking to defend your interpretation?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Are you looking to defend your interpretation?

Yes, I'm wondering if anyone has a problem with how I've interpreted it. I'm playing with a new DM, who has enough work on his hands, so I don't want to accidentally take advantage of his inexperience by incorrectly interpreting these rules in my own favor. With no responses, I'm assuming either no one has a problem with it, or no one cares enough, either way I'm stuck w/ my own interpretation :)

An added benefit is that, when I looked for flowing monk interpretations, I didn't find any comprehensive threads. It's possible someone else will come across this in a few months and at least get one other person's interpretation (mine).

Another strange thing I'll add to the list, as I've now had my first session with this character: reflex based sicken vs undead. You'd think undead would be immune to sicken, but as far as I can tell, they aren't. Most sicken effects are going to be fort saves, which means undead are immune by default, but flowing monk is probably fairly unique in that they have a reflex-based sicken effect. Vs undead, there's not actually anything in the undead traits that would suggest they are immune to it:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Unde ad


oneplus999 wrote:
If anyone thinks my interpretation is wrong, please let me know!

^


Dumb Paladin wrote:
oneplus999 wrote:
I'm posting to see if anyone has a problem with my interpretation.
It only matters if your GM has a problem with your interpretation.

Whups didn't see this comment first time. See above. First-time DM and we play with 6 players, so I can't really expect him to go over my character in detail.


Redirection (Ex)

oneplus999 wrote:
1. Redirection - takes place before the attack occurs, correct? So I do not take damage from it. Do I get to see the "incoming" attack's roll or outcome first, or do I just get to know that I was about to be attacked and by who? I would think I just know who is attacking me.

You take damage from it if it hits you.

If you use the Redirection combat maneuver, and you move the opponent to where they can't hit you, then their attack is wasted. If you move them, but they still threaten, then their attack continues.

If you trip them, they continue the attack, only at a penalty for being prone.

All you know is the opponent is about to attack you. If you act, you act, if not, the attack continues. Regardless of whether your DM rolls behind the screen, you should decide if you are using the ability before he rolls.

oneplus999 wrote:
2. More on Redirection - What can they do after getting tripped? Say they get redirection-tripped, and I have vicious stomp, with Unbalancing Counter they are now prone and maybe flat footed and sickened. Have they used their standard action yet? Does the attack "fizzle"? Do they have to continue with the attack they were making, or, if they hadn't taken any other actions yet, can they instead stand up and attack? I would probably go with the least penalizing here... which is that they didn't use their standard action and could potentially stand up and single-attack, if my trip did in fact take place "before" their attack.

If you trip them, cause them to provoke, and then hit them, yes, he would be flat-footed. He can do anything he can normally do, except make attacks of opportunity or apply his Dex bonus to AC.

I would say the opponent has already committed to an attack, so he finishes his attack from prone. I would allow him to drop his attack and lose the action if he needed to for some reason. If it was the first attack of a full attack or otherwise a standard action attack, he could still get his move action.

oneplus999 wrote:
3. Trip + Vicious Stomp + Flurry + Unbalancing Counter - If I trip in the middle of a flurry, vicious stomp gets resolved in the middle of a flurry, then I go back to finish my flurry where I left off, but now against a prone, and potentially flat footed opponent?

Yep.

oneplus999 wrote:
4. More on Vicious Stomp - based on the wording, I assume this takes place after they are prone. It's just a little weird because normally AOOs take place right before whatever provokes them, but here it's pretty clearly intended to be after (so +4 on the AOO).

Vicious Stomp (Combat): "Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike."

It doesn't specify. I would probably run it the same was as Greater Trip and, even though it's triggered by a trip, it would still interrupt the action that caused it. In other words, it's caused by the act of him falling, not him being on the ground.

oneplus999 wrote:
5. Trip as attack of opportunity - Related to #2... say I do a trip as an AOO, but lets say they are in the middle of a 30' move. I trip, they use a move action to stand up. Is that the end of their turn, since they have used two move actions, or do they get the rest of their original movement?

I think they would lose the rest of their movement for that action.

oneplus999 wrote:
6. Unbalancing Counter + Vicious Stomp - It says "until the end of your next turn", which is very clear for an AOO that occurs outside of my turn, but what about an AOO in the middle of my turn, such as Vicious Stomp? RAW would make me think it really means next turn, but that just seems a little too powerful, so I'm wondering if there's any other precedent for exactly what "next turn" means in this situation. Would it instead only last until the end of my current turn?

Next turn is fairly explicit. Why would it mean "this turn" ?

oneplus999 wrote:
7. Flurry on the Fly - I'm assuming there's nothing wrong with me deciding what I'm going to do (trip vs damage) as I go along, and that I don't have to "declare" ahead of time which attacks will be trips and which will be damage. So my plan right now is to keep trying to trip until I succeed, do my vicious stomp, then continue my flurry with unarmed damaging attacks.

You decide before you make the attack.

oneplus999 wrote:
8. Qinggong + Other archetypes - Not directly concerning flowing monk, but any reason you can't combine qinggong with other archetypes it "overlaps" with? As long as you don't pick up the qinggong abilities when that ability is being replaced by other archetypes.

You can take multiple archetypes as long as they don't both replace the same ability. Since Qinggong can replace everything, you may want to clear it with your DM first.

oneplus999 wrote:
9. powerattack (via qinggong) +trip flurry- is there any reason I can't activate power attack AFTER my first successful trip in a flurry, in order to avoid the cmb penalty on my flurry-trips?

You choose to use Power Attack before an attack roll. It doesn't have to be the first attack roll of your turn. You can even turn it on specifically for an AoO.


Thanks! Glad to finally have another's thoughts here.

For #8 about Qinggong, I would only be using it to replace the original monk abilities that I haven't already replaced with another archetype. So Wholeness of Body would be the first one I have available, since Slowfall and High Jump are already replaced by me also doing Sacred Mountain.

I think #1 does make more sense the way you say it, that they would still get to do their attack. The fact that it's at -4 for being prone will still be a big help in avoiding attacks.

#4 Vicious stomp I know they didn't specify, and based on the normal "aoo's take place before action provoking them", RAW could definitely be argued that it's against their standing AC, but RAI is so very clearly that they are on the ground, so I'd probably still argue that it's at -4 AC.
Vicious Stomp
The flavor text even says "You take advantage of the moment to brutally kick an enemy when he is down."

#6 As for the "flat footed until the end of your next turn" bit, like I said it's pretty clearly written, it's just that it seems so powerful! It will mean I'm that much more likely to get a trip next turn, which will mean another two AOOs, both of which will take another reflex save not to stay flat footed, and if he tries to get away from me to avoid a flurry, I get a third AOO to trip him again. If it ends up being too crazy we'll just have to houserule it differently.

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