My 2nd level paladin was in a tavern trying to get important information out of a drunken town guard. Another guard, also drunk, was in the tavern, and started hitting on my paladin. After she turned him down and turned back to the guard she was trying to get information out of, the boor put his hand on her shoulder and said "Come on, sugartits", at which point she whirled around and punched him in the face. I rolled a natural 20 on my attack roll and successfully confirmed the critical hit. I did 14 points of damage, which was more HP than the guard had, and so he went down. The guard I was questioning tried to grapple my paladin in response to this, and I knocked him out with my AOO, which scored a critical.
At this point the other three guards in the room rushed me. The first two missed with their attacks, and the third hit. I grabbed a chair and swung it, striking the guard who had just punched me hard enough to knock him unconscious. The chair broke, leaving me with a broken chair leg. The two remaining guards pulled out saps and swung them. Both missed, and I knocked another out with the chair leg, leaving one left. He decided to grapple me, and my AOO missed. He succeeded with the grapple, and I punched him on my next round while we were rolling around on the ground. He punched me on his next round, and I punched him again on my next round, knocking him out. Then I got up, dropped some gold pieces on the counter to compensate the bartender for the damage the fight caused, and walked out.
So far as I know, all the guards were 1st level warriors. Now, it was pretty badass that my paladin took out 5 guards singlehandedly, and the GM hasn't said or hinted that my paladin did anything wrong, but I'm wondering if I did. Specifically, punching that first guard without a warning, and then not yielding to the other guards. I'm lawful good, and the guards were the local law. Even if he was being a boor, was punching him right, or a violation of the code of conduct? What about fighting the other guards after they tried to capture me for taking out the first guard? Was that contrary to the code of conduct? All the damage done during the fight was non-lethal, so nobody got killed, but I still fought several representatives of the law.
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Had the other guards called for your surrender, and not outright atacked, then maybe. I don't see anything wrong or code of ethics breaking.
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Paladins uphold the ideas of Goodness, honor, and justice and as such must take those actions into thier own hands. If the guard was harrassing her then she has the right to defend herself, and obviously if thier buddies immediatly attacked instead of apologizing after seeing what happened then they were obviously corrupt.
You did the right thing by fight non-lethally and you cleaned up some corrupt guards, which i must remind you is a duty of Paladin's to weed out corruption from the law. So I must say that you're justified
The smart thing to do next is go to the constabulary andboth apologize to the head guard and also complain to him about the behaivior of his law enforcement, so that he may be able to get such slime out of the office and make an example of them.
Too bad you didn't have my Paladin with you, he would have scared the crud out of the guards and been able to help with the beating since he's a fist-fighting archetype I made.
Don't worry, no intelligent DM will fault you for defending your honor and integrity.
Idt so, but it is awesome nonetheless. Just go down to the guard office and report the situation. Maybe they will forgive you.
But in my opinion, a lawful good paladin only really neds to follow the tenants of her faith. The law of a town doesn't determine falling from grace in my opinion. Otherwise you walk into cheliax and someone says you have to have a holy symbol of asmodeus in your house and you say no, you fall from grace. You could tell them that you worship imodae but thats besides the point.
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Sounds like those guards were off duty. It also sounds like they were not trying to apprehend you but to beat you up. You showed them that the path of chaos leads to pain. I think your paladin did just fine.
Now if they were on duty and the other guards called upon you to submit for arrest...well that would be another story.
Also, a Phylactery of Faithfulness might pay off if you are worried about this stuff.
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Granted, what I'm about to say refers to modern laws in America, so it probably has little to do with the laws of the fictional location of your game. That said, many DMs use a legal code that is somewhat similar to the ones most players know and just point out the differences.
One: Being drunk in public often is illegal, even in a bar. Some people have been arrested for this in the U.S. and lost their driver's license, even when the bar was part of the hotel they were staying in.
Two: The boor touched you without permission. This is battery in all of the U.S.A. The statement "come on" could be considered a threat, since it does imply an "or else." That would be an assault.
So, that's three possible crimes this guard committed before considering any allegations of sexual harassment (which could also be a civil law matter, depending on the situation and jurisdiction).
Your response was a punch to the face, which most places would consider justified force to protect yourself and your property. The skill of the blow is just awesome and has no bearing on legalities.
Now, since the guard you were talking to at first was drunk, I'm assuming he was off duty. An off-duty officer usually has less authority than an officer on duty. He did not attempt an arrest, according to your story. That means he was an average citizen who attacked you without legal justification. That's also battery, and you responded in your own defense.
Now, the rest of it sounds like a good old-fashioned bar brawl that's common in action movies and RPGs. No weapons were used, you paid for any damages and you didn't take advantage of anyone.
Depending on the region, you might have broken a local law regarding actions toward law enforcement officers. Regardless, you did not break the paladin code as written. As others have pointed out, being lawful does not mean obeying all laws in all places. Devils are lawful, after all.
Your DM might introduce some other situations like this in the future to see if your character might lean more toward Chaos than Law and Order. You mentioned nothing about trying to defuse the situation once more guards because involved. This just might be something your DM uses to justify shifting your reputation from a diplomat (the high Charisma paladin assumption) to more of a Righteous Warrior type (you put down violations of Order with blows not words).
This sounds like a good roleplaying moment, but not something you should fall over. I find that situations like this often make players examine why their characters do things which leads to more fun roleplay in the future.
Think of it this way: what if the paladin was a guy, and some other woman had been the target of the guard's crap? Wouldn't people be commending you for your chivalry?
For hitting the first guard, yes. What I'm worried about is the other four. Though, judging by the responses I got here, I don't have too much to worry about if I handle the fallout correctly.
It was nonlethal damage. Nobody got killed.
I have the highest charisma score in the party, and have full ranks in diplomacy, so I have the best gather information rolls. Therefore, it made sense for me to go into the bar.
I needed answers from that specific guard (who was refusing to answer my questions) about something he had seen. The boorish guard hadn't seen it, so there was no point talking to him or any of the other guards in the establishment.
I would clarify this with your GM too. That way you know how they might adjudicate future alignment issues, and when you get in another bar-fight, you're better able to understand what is and isn't kosher in the GM's eyes when it comes to this.
I would clarify this with your GM too. That way you know how they might adjudicate future alignment issues, and when you get in another bar-fight, you're better able to understand what is and isn't kosher in the GM's eyes when it comes to this.
The GM hasn't accused me of violating the code of conduct. The issue is that I myself think I might have, and want to clarify whether I did for future reference.
Well, the only way to know 100% at that point would be to articulate what your paladin's code of conduct actually is.
This is of course setting and back-story dependent, and heck, fleshing out what your code actually is and then giving the heads up to the GM could help him or her generate some interesting choices for you and the party.
Belated reply, but kelsey, i think your pally is doing just fine; just stay true to thine Alignment :)
Think of it this way, Your Paladin may have turned the poor guard away from a dark path in life by knocking him out. Next time he thinks about getting drunk and feeling up some girl in the bar, He'll remember his broken nose, and thank you *nod*
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Think of it this way, Your Paladin may have turned the poor guard away from a dark path in life by knocking him out. Next time he thinks about getting drunk and feeling up some girl in the bar, He'll remember his broken nose, and thank you *nod*
Or he won't and his corruption will further justify the Paladin's actions. So either way, a win for the holy arse kicker!
Wow. Just wow.
I don't know about you, but when playing a paladin I try to view actions through a filter of "what is proportionate or?" A person propositioned your character. No harm in that and let's be honest - you were in a bar which is a classic pick-up joint. That same person touched your shoulder. Again, no harm. Unwanted physical contact yes, but not an act of violence. (Yes, context matters but as described I'm not getting the sense of a violation in progress.) Finally, the use of a gender pejorative. While very disrespectful and crass, insult does no harm. Sticks and stones, y'know?
So I'm to understand your paladin decided a reasonable and proportionate response to no harm, no harm, and a rude choice of words is physical assault?
Personally I'd go with dangerously unstable. Chaotic, definitely. She's unable to judge situational appropriateness for physical force. I can't judge on the Evil-Neutral-Good axis as I really can't tell what the motivation was at this stage. Teaching a guy a lesson? (Speak with respect or your head gets bashed in.)
Then things get significantly weirder. She's just assaulted a town guard. Four more guards ultimately try to restrain her. She doesn't understand that she needs to stand down and try to explain herself? Instead she kicks their behinds? What? This goes way beyond merely being non-lawful. This enters into some weird chip-on-the-shoulder demented anti-social raging psychotic off-their-meds dimension. At this stage there's zero possibility the intention is Good; you don't beat up a patrol because they're unhappy you just beat another one up - who incidentally could easily be dead as far as they know - for no visibly evident reason.
Heck, I'm sorry to say it Kelsey, but depending on the specific details of the situation, I'd be suspecting I'm dealing with an Evil character who is gleefully enjoying having the vaguest of self-justification in beating the snot out of legitimate (male) authority, and their chauvinist pig co-worker.
So. She's Chaotic, and either Neutral or Evil.
You tell me what her code-of-conduct has to say.
Finally, the use of a gender pejorative.
Who the what now?
At worst it was slightly chaotic. Nonlethal was appropriate. If your Pally doesn't habitually do these kind of things it won't affect alignment at all.
If youre worried, in character. Perhaps it would not be inappropriate to check up on them. Or have you're pally consult a local priest.
Awesome story BTW.
Remember this: If you ever have to ask yourself "Should I have done that?" the answer is always no.
A more serious answer: no, you overreacted, but it's not something I would make you fall for, though I think you should apologize to the guards the next day. Even if they are representatives of the law, doesn't mean they are above being evil, or doing things like attacking a lady who knocked one of them out, because he was being a jerk.
Having a single bad reaction isn't indicative of alignment, there are plenty of heroes (in fact most heroes) who are lawful good, and if you take any of their actions separately, they would be considered evil.
I'd say human(oid), not a perfect paladin, you might want to work on your temper, because it can (and will) get you into trouble, and if you apologize, or attempt to make amends to the guards, I'm sure they will officially accept them, even if they don't individually, because you did just trash a bunch of guards.
My fault, totally misquoted there; but who told you that settlement's alignment was good, never mind lawful?
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I'm assuming none of the guards died right? Your attacks are non-lethal?
If so, I don't think you did anything wrong, your just defending yourself. Being a Paladin does not mean you shoulder every insult or indignity that comes your way.
A Paladin is a walking symbol of your Deity, a martial one at that, aka a sword to smite your Deity's foes. That entitles you to some respect!
After she turned him down and turned back to the guard she was trying to get information out of, the boor put his hand on her shoulder and said "Come on, sugartits"
Just to put it simply, going by the Pally code of conduct: that is NOT a legitimate authority...
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Wow. Just wow.
I don't know about you, but when playing a paladin I try to view actions through a filter of "what is proportionate or?" A person propositioned your character. No harm in that and let's be honest - you were in a bar which is a classic pick-up joint. That same person touched your shoulder. Again, no harm. Unwanted physical contact yes, but not an act of violence. (Yes, context matters but as described I'm not getting the sense of a violation in progress.) Finally, the use of a gender pejorative. While very disrespectful and crass, insult does no harm. Sticks and stones, y'know?
So I'm to understand your paladin decided a reasonable and proportionate response to no harm, no harm, and a rude choice of words is physical assault?
Personally I'd go with dangerously unstable. Chaotic, definitely. She's unable to judge situational appropriateness for physical force. I can't judge on the Evil-Neutral-Good axis as I really can't tell what the motivation was at this stage. Teaching a guy a lesson? (Speak with respect or your head gets bashed in.)
Then things get significantly weirder. She's just assaulted a town guard. Four more guards ultimately try to restrain her. She doesn't understand that she needs to stand down and try to explain herself? Instead she kicks their behinds? What? This goes way beyond merely being non-lawful. This enters into some weird chip-on-the-shoulder demented anti-social raging psychotic off-their-meds dimension. At this stage there's zero possibility the intention is Good; you don't beat up a patrol because they're unhappy you just beat another one up - who incidentally could easily be dead as far as they know - for no visibly evident reason.
Heck, I'm sorry to say it Kelsey, but depending on the specific details of the situation, I'd be suspecting I'm dealing with an Evil character who is gleefully enjoying having the vaguest of self-justification in beating the snot out of legitimate (male) authority, and their chauvinist...
You obviously never saw the backstory for this Paladin,if this is the same one described in that thread.It screams drama queen/troublemaker.
Now, the rest of it sounds like a good old-fashioned bar brawl that's common in action movies and RPGs. No weapons were used, you paid for any damages and you didn't take advantage of anyone.
Depending on the region, you might have broken a local law regarding actions toward law enforcement officers.
Sorry to quote myself, but I reread your original post. I had assumed these final guards were also drunk at the bar, but I don't actually see that anywhere in the post. If they were there just to keep order, ensure the peace and safety of the establishment and in general make sure fights don't break out, then a paladin would not normally attack them. As I said before, I just assumed this was some drunken melee, i.e., the standard fantasy barroom brawl.
If you also beat up the people whose job it was to keep the peace and make sure riots don't break out, then that's not typical paladin behavior at all. That alone probably wouldn't usually make someone fall, but it would be a first step on that path. It also would bring dishonor to the character's organization and to herself. Most paladins avoid situations that cause such things.
All that said, there are plenty of people who would start to doubt or not trust a paladin that responded to crudeness with violence. The main reason is because people assume that a paladin is diplomatic and fights "EVIL" like demons and undead. A paladin is a physical symbol of their god on the mortal plane.
What's this post from bigkilla ... (goes off to read thread).
*blinks*
Um, wow. There's no way any DM I know would let you play that character as a LG paladin. Maybe one of the variants, but not LG. If you and your DM are cool with it, then it doesn't really matter what the rest of us say. But it sounds like the idea of pushing boundaries with your paladin no longer really appeals to you like it once did.
Blue Star said it pretty well: Things that prick your conscience do so because you are questioning yourself. The real measure of a character is what happens next.
PS: On the subject of the drunken boor touching the paladin, yes, most people shrug off such incidents in their day-to-day life. But that doesn't mean the action is legal. Simple battery in the USA (again, just grabbing a modern context that many of us can relate to or understand) basically occurs when someone "Makes intentional contact of an insulting or provoking nature with the person of another; or Cause intentional harm to another."
That basic language, or something like it, is on the books in most of the states. Just chasing someone in what could be considered a threatening manner (which can simply be being an larger male running after a physically smaller woman) is simple assault. We don't always file charges about such things because they can be difficult to prove in court, but don't do them in front of a police officer unless you want to take a trip downtown.
The way I view paladin's code of conduct is if they a) worship a deity, then as long as their actions mirror the precepts of that deity, they are adhering to their "laws of their conduct," or if b) they do not worship a specific deity, they must write a short list of precepts they follow and as long as their actions mirror those they are adhering to these "laws of conduct."
The "lawful" requirement is merely IMO a requirement that they have a written (or at least well summarized) list of codes that they follow, not a requirement to bend to the will of the local government. And while this does, in my play group, tend to lead to some rather "chaotic" paladins, that is not necessarily a bad thing.
All that said, what your character did is, at the very least, a chaotic act. However, as has previously noted, one chaotic action does not a chaotic character make.
If you as a player are unsure of the appropriateness of your character's actions, take this time to evaluate your character's code of conduct, both in and out of character. If it still falls outside these boundaries take the time in character to make amends and try in the future to avoid similar actions.
In either case, I would still consider making an apology, either to the Captain of the Guard/Watch or to the guardsmen/watchmen themselves. This will help to diffuse the situation and garner good will (or at the very least mitigate bad will).
I would make the decision as to who to make the apology to based entirely on your characters code of conduct, though. If your character feels that they did little or no wrong and that the blame was at least equally if not more upon the shoulders of the footmen, make the apology to the Captain. Otherwise take the effort to make the apology to the individual guardsmen and make reparations as necessary, possibly paying for any medical treatment and loss of pay from suspension from duty, etc.
Not typical paladin behaviour, might seem a bit of an overreaction but paladin characters are allowed a little breathing space within their code, as a GM I would question the player if these sort of things came up regularly. It would be perfectly acceptable if the paladin in question is violently opposed to sexism, think a little Red Sonja here.
The proper thing to do was prolly warn the guard that you are going to punch him in the face if he doesnt unhand your shoulder and bugger off, the rest of it is simply a barbrawl dealing non-lethal damage, a common adventurer past time.
Might have paid for the guards tab as well in addition to the damages, not that you didnt pay enough, to smooth things over a bit. All in all sounds like everyone had fun.
Remember this: If you ever have to ask yourself "Should I have done that?" the answer is always no.
A more serious answer: no, you overreacted, but it's not something I would make you fall for, though I think you should apologize to the guards the next day. Even if they are representatives of the law, doesn't mean they are above being evil, or doing things like attacking a lady who knocked one of them out, because he was being a jerk.
Having a single bad reaction isn't indicative of alignment, there are plenty of heroes (in fact most heroes) who are lawful good, and if you take any of their actions separately, they would be considered evil.
I'd say human(oid), not a perfect paladin, you might want to work on your temper, because it can (and will) get you into trouble, and if you apologize, or attempt to make amends to the guards, I'm sure they will officially accept them, even if they don't individually, because you did just trash a bunch of guards.
I'd say blue star hit it on the nose. if you have to ask with a paladin "should i have done this" or "was this against my alignment" then it's a good start that SOMETHING went awry. eather you broke your code or at the least your character isn't be true to himself/herself.
should you lose your powers? no. but the question you should be asking is "as a paladin how could i have handled this differently?". well you should try to uphold the law and goodness in general. in the case of a crooked law you should try to at least uphold what is good.
In this case a better response would have been an intimidate check to try to put him in his place. or simple roleplay it out . such as " As a paladin of X i find your attitude, behavior, and code of conduct offensive. kindly remove your hands from my body and ask X for forgiveness. If you repent now i will be done with it at leave it in X's hands when your final judgement comes, and i might refrain from informing your superiors of your actions this day." Firm eye on GM. If you wish GM i can make an intimidate check but i have spoken my peace regardless..
You obviously never saw the backstory for this Paladin,if this is the same one described in that thread.It screams drama queen/troublemaker.
As always, the following in my humble opinion.
If it's the same character, I'm kind of bummed out. That young lady wouldn't be beating people up for using a boorish epithet. She'd verbally rip the poor guard to shreds, emasculating him to the point of tears.
I would see that lady responding with a rejoinder along the lines of "let me explain - pencil-shnorkie - why I'm not interested in a tumble with you. Aside from that I'm not immune to diseases - yet - your wife has me positively exhausted by repeated flumpleumple. Incidentally, the think about your shnorkie being small? My source is reliable. No go away and drown in your own vomit so I don't have to at the mere thought of flumpleumple with you."
Sanitized for Paizo's boards and of course the specifics would be up to the player.
What I'm saying is that the request-for-input sound like a confident smart-aleck who would provide the guard plenty of rope to hang himself. Not take the first punch. Getting the guy to seal his own fate is VERY paladin. Getting the town guards to defend her against him is very quirky paladin.
This character nugget can be really cool (I've seen it done) if not just a thug.
Sexy paladin
I haven't used that character yet. I will, but I'm saving her up for something special. The paladin I'm playing right now is much more conventional.
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I talked to the GM, and he pointed out that because the first guard grabbed me and said something in a tone indicative of a sexual threat, my actions were justified, and because the other four guards were drunk in a bar and never even asked her to stand down before attacking, that was justified as well, as she had no way to know of they were planning on arresting her or doing something far worse (Which I never even thought of. I assumed they intended an arrest, but the GM is hinting their thoughts on what to do with her were very different.).
I think you were OK in knocking out the first guard, but should have surrendered to the second. The first was acting on his own motive, outside of the aegis of law and is thus bereft of its protection.
That fine legal point is however, above guard number 2's paygrade. You are technically assaulting an officer of the law and it is cop number 2's lawful duty to arrest you for that. Even now a cop tackling you is technically performing an arrest even without a verbal declaration. In a medievalish setting beating you on the head with a club until you stop moving is probably considered standard operating procedure for an arrest.
You handled yourself just fine. You responded with appropriate force to an insult to your dignity; you would have been justified in inflicting injury or even demanding a duel, but you chose to be merciful. You might consider having words with their superiors about their conduct-- if only in hopes of improving their behavior in the future.
My opinion:
1) Your response to the drunken boor was a poor choice for a paladin. Not so much for the level of response, but for the fact that you lost your self-discipline. It sounds like there's no way your character could have really perceived him as a legitimate threat.
2) The fight with the other guards, while awesome to visualize, was even more lack of self-control.
IMO, this is a perfect situation in which to seek atonement. This wouldn't create an alignment shift - that notion is silly. You are (human?) after all.
Think of it in the same manner as the military would expect an officer to conduct him or herself. Just because the other guys were in the wrong, a wrong on your part doesn't make a right. You're expected to hold yourself to a higher standard, and set an example.
My position assumes that the guards were non-evil, and that the authority of the town/city was non-evil. If this situation were to take place in festering cesspit of a city, then I would say that your character could rightly assume the guards to be a real threat.
Great RP opportunity, IMO.
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I disagree with a lot of posters. A paladin, if they are accepted in the realm due to their god/goddess, is almost like a Federal Marshall in the wild west. They had a LOT of authority, even over local police.
The fact that these city guards were drunk, and assaulted a woman in a bar was dumb enough, and not something that should be allowed in a city guard. The fact that they did this to a paladin was pure stupidity.
The only thing I think the Paladin in question did wrong was not tying the idiots up, putting them on a wagon, and hauling their butts to the local judiciary and putting them up on charges of assault and battery.
Remember, Paladin's are very much like Knights. They usually enjoy the right of both High and Low justice in most places where their gods hold sway. Technically, a Paladin in a land where her god is recognized can legitimately hold trial on, and pass sentence on, anyone they feel is breaking the law.
I AM THE LAAWWWRRR!!!
You have just been judged.
mdt, I think you're taking a slightly different view of pallies than I am. I can see your view, but I'm looking at them like they're jedi.
mmmm... Paladin with a lightsaber...
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I disagree with a lot of posters. A paladin, if they are accepted in the realm due to their god/goddess, is almost like a Federal Marshall in the wild west. They had a LOT of authority, even over local police.
The fact that these city guards were drunk, and assaulted a woman in a bar was dumb enough, and not something that should be allowed in a city guard. The fact that they did this to a paladin was pure stupidity.
The only thing I think the Paladin in question did wrong was not tying the idiots up, putting them on a wagon, and hauling their butts to the local judiciary and putting them up on charges of assault and battery.
Remember, Paladin's are very much like Knights. They usually enjoy the right of both High and Low justice in most places where their gods hold sway. Technically, a Paladin in a land where her god is recognized can legitimately hold trial on, and pass sentence on, anyone they feel is breaking the law.
I agree with most of what you said.BUT.A Paladin should be above such petty engagements as this. The Paladin should not take offence to a silly drunken person no more than they should take offence to rat crawling across the floor.So the guy made a crude remark and touched the Paladins shoulder, the Paladin should have swatted/brushed the guys hand off of her shoulder and went about her business showing that she was above the foolishness of the drunks in the bar.
The actions of the paladin in question is something I would see a Barbarian or other uncivilized person doing, she acted as bad or worse than the drunks in question.Now that being said it is nothing g that would involve losing a Paladin hood or even needing atonement for, unless this type of reaction is commonplace for the Paladin, then maybe a change of classes would be required as the person is not Paladin material.
I agree with most of what you said.BUT.A Paladin should be above such petty engagements as this. The Paladin should not take offence to a silly drunken person no more than they should take offence to rat crawling across the floor.So the guy made a crude remark and touched the Paladins shoulder, the Paladin should have swatted/brushed the guys hand off of her shoulder and went about her business showing that she was above the foolishness of the drunks in the bar.The actions of the paladin in question is something I would see a Barbarian or other uncivilized person doing, she acted as bad or worse than the drunks in question.
Shoulder?
*goes back and rereads OP*
OH! I thought he grabbed her breasts!
Ok, maybe the initial punching out was a little overpowered a response for a Pally.
I AM THE LAAWWWRRR!!!
You have just been judged.
mdt, I think you're taking a slightly different view of pallies than I am. I can see your view, but I'm looking at them like they're jedi.
mmmm... Paladin with a lightsaber...
I don't know that I'd go that far. Jedi had a lot of restrictions that weren't about being 'good', they were about not letting their own power go out of control. But close. I just feel Pally's are a lot more concerned with rules than Jedi are. Jedi have a strong personal code, but they really don't care about breaking laws if they feel what they are doing is right. I always thought Jedi were CG, not LG.
did anybody read her last post.....
Yes, but that info is irrelevant, since it's "after the fact" info. That's the GM putting a player at ease.
There was nothing mentioned in the original story, about the pally being afraid of being raped. Had that been mentioned, then I would bet that nobody would question her actions.
The way the story was presented, was like some harmless, but obnoxious drunks making a pass at her, and were met with facecrunch, followed by a can being opened when their buddies stepped up to defend them.
Personally, I think the pally's horse should have to seek atonement, since any good divine mount worth their salt, would have bitten the one guard in the arse, thus preventing all the ensuing shenanigans.