Welcome!
The Hearthfinder Society consists of:
Calavas Orlosky (NG Half-Elf Sorcerer)
Lyle Brandt (NG Human Rogue)
Khalil Jabir (NG Human Fighter)
Alexei (NG Half-Elf Wizard)
Nimeon (LG Half-Elf Paladin)
Kalaya (CG Human Witch)
What needs to be decided and confirmed right now is:
Which alignment are you?
Are you sponsored or independent? If sponsored, suggest a sponsor, and affiliation.
If independent, your starting BP will be 15. You will have no entitlements.
If sponsored, either 20, 25 or 30, dependent on the identity of the sponsor. You will receive objectives from the sponsor that may be detrimental (such as "accumulate X BP for me" or "venture to area X and retrieve this item for us/me.")
Also: who fills the Ruler position? Which title would he or she hold? Mayor or Lord, or...?
Once this has been resolved, there is also a matter of how to run the Kingdom building. I suggest a separate thread for this. There is also the matter of how to run this in-character - I suggest that when the end of the month arrives, the technical crunch of kingdom building occurs.
You will also have to explore tiles and claim them, as per the rules. For the sake of the story, we will do "Month 0" in regards of Kingdom building, so you actually have a village to start with. For this special edition month, you have no build limits - so you can build as many buildings as your BP allows. For simplicity's sake, the BP you start with is what you have after claiming and preparing the city district.
Optional: do you want quests from the village? Not only in the sense of "I wish somebody could retrieve X from Y" but also "villagers request the construction of X".
Optional: I am considering also letting other villages grow and develop around in the Stolen Lands. Does this idea appeal?
Optional: Do you wish to make a second character that can fill leadership roles? The reason behind this is the guarantee of a backup in case of untimely death, and the removal of the need for NPCs to fill leadership roles (YMMV if this is good or bad).
I believe we have decided on either NG or LG as our alignment, with most leaning towards NG. If we wish to be slightly different from the other group, we may want to change this to LG. I'm okay either way.
When it comes to independent vs. sponsored, I think that the cost of owing someone some BP is more detrimental than just having an initially low BP. My vote is for independent.
A separate thread to run kingdom building isn't a bad idea, that way we can separate it from the story. Or alternatively, we could do so here in this thread.
Optional #1: Quests are fine. I don't think that's really so much a decision we should make, as one you should, DM. You can use quests as story hooks for us, and I think that's a great idea. Otherwise, I'll just go with the flow.
Optional #2: Sure, other villages are fine with me. I'm hoping our village and the other group's village end up as allies. Additional NPC villages can provide conflicts and such.
Optional #3: I can roll up another character if everyone wants to do so. I'll probably end up reusing a character I've used once before to make things simple.
I'm with Khalil on most of his points. I would like to see us LG but won't object if we're NG, as long as we're not any other alignment. Independent is the way to go imo.
I agree on the first two optionals, quests and other villages will make it seem a lot more organic, although that is a lot more work for Patcher so I do think that's totally up to you.
As for 3, I would like to use our characters for the roles but a backup might make sense as well.
I still need to pick a second trait, will do so tonight.
NG seems to the best fit for the group, but Alexei is defiantly inclined towards lawful.
Independent all the way. Our hearths are our own!
Since DM and Khalil seem inclined, I'm okay with kingdom building having a separate thread, as long as it doesn't separate the kingdom from the characters.
Optional 1: Yes. If we're running this village, its welfare should be the motivating factor in our actions.
Optional 2: Sure.
Optional 3: Not really. If people want to do it, or it would make things easier, sure, but not my first inclination.
We can go ahead and go LG. The more I think on creating another character, the less I like it. We can have NPCs fill the kingdom roles that are unaccounted for, and if our characters get stale (which shouldn't happen for a while anyway) we can always roll up new ones then. Also, I think I would actually prefer the Kingdom Building decisions to just be in this thread. It'll keep things closer to together, that way we don't have to go digging to find the thread.
Speaking of kingdom roles... I see my character as a Marshal, leader of the city guards. I could also fill the role of General if that fits better with the rest of the party, but I prefer Marshal.
Uhm, being the only Chaotic in the group will prove interresting, but then again, witches are always outcasts, even when they're accepted.
Independent is definitely the way to go.
I'm fine with quests, since the village welfare is the point, nd in terms of supporting roles maybe a couple people can take Leadership when the time comes.
I thought we'd already decided on NG, but I won't fight against LG if that's what everybody wants.
Yes, to independence, yes to quests and other villages, no to a second character. Since we only have a town, I guess our ruler would be titled Mayor. Not sure who should be the ruler, the one with the highest Charisma? I'd probably be the Spymaster, if they have one.
The only leadership role open in the very beginning is the Ruler role. You unlock other roles as you buy buildings.
I apologise for my poor efforts regarding the modified rules - the exams have got me rather frustrated and stressed.
No worries, DM. I understand how exams can be (just finished one myself and I still have a paper to write). I don't think anyone's in any rush.
Yeah no problem. If I remember right the leader is whomever has the higher Charisma. I have a 14 but Nimeon doesn't really think of himself as a leader, so I wouldn't be a good fit for that role.
Patcher, when you get a chance can you turn this into a campaign for ease of sorting?
Lyle, I thought we had decided on NG as well. NG does seem to fit better, since we have a CG witch and a LG paladin. I think that if we go NG (loose economy but gain stability) we can find roles for the extremes and more easily justify it from a role playing standpoint. It will also give us flexibility to deal with any NPC towns as we will either be within a step of the good towns and 1 or 2 from the neutrals.
I don't think there's any guideline about who is supposed to be the leader, though higher charisma is a real plus from a crunch standpoint.
Since Nimeon declines, I'll nominate Alexei for mayor. As a cleric of Abadar, his domains are Leadership and Trade, and the description in Faiths of Balance says followers of Abadar seek out leadership positions. If elected, I will do my best to play it well.
Indeed Patcher, I've got finals next week, and projects/papers due this week. We feel your pain.
I agree with with Nimeon's reasoning with the alignment for our town, and I have no objection to Alexi being our Mayor, or whatever title he wants to call himself.
Got your e-mail Patcher, were we supposed to decide on the initial layout for our town? or do we start with a basic framework and add on to it as we go along?
Oh, and good luck with your exams.
NG is fine, it just sounded for a second like we had more votes for LG. NG actually fits Khalil better anyway. And I'm okay with Alexei as well.
So, how do we all know each other? I think we should try and tie our stories together a little.
Sorry it took so long to post in here, work + exams has not been kind to me for the last couple of days. At least it will all be over tomorrow. Be strong, Patcher and Khalil, I'm with you guys!
Anyways, NG does sound like the best alignment for all involved, and while I'm a bit concerned about the limited resources of going independent, it's not enough of one to put up a fuss about; I'll don my browncoat and saddle up.
Calavas doesn't strike me as much of a leader, so no contest from me to Alexei stepping up. Will be aiming for Magister myself. On kingdom building, do you mean the end of the literal month, or in-game month?
Village quests and other villages popping up sounds cool to me. The former seems like a great way to make other NPCs in the town more than 'I go and buy a sword from Armorer A', as well as a good method of introducing plot hooks and such. The latter honestly gives even more reason to explore beyond the immediate area for me, and with both player villages being of similar alignment, it gives more opportunity for contrast. 'Greetings, fellow prospectors and explorers. I am Arodeus Valerios, hailing from the grand nation of Cheliax. You seem to have stumbled across the boundaries of our foundling colony; may I ask what business brings you to our door?' seems like a heck of a point of intrigue to stumble into.
Edit: Didn't sound Chelish enough ;)
Patcher, when you get a chance can you turn this into a campaign for ease of sorting?
Done.
I don't think there's any guideline about who is supposed to be the leader, though higher charisma is a real plus from a crunch standpoint.
This is correct. There are no official guidelines, but I ask for the sake of fluff that it at least makes sense and is consistent.
Calavas doesn't strike me as much of a leader, so no contest from me to Alexei stepping up. Will be aiming for Magister myself. On kingdom building, do you mean the end of the literal month, or in-game month?
The in-game month.
Got your e-mail Patcher, were we supposed to decide on the initial layout for our town? or do we start with a basic framework and add on to it as we go along?
For the sake of creating a summary, here is the process of Month Zero. We skip the Income and Event phase because you are only establishing your city this month.
Just before the campaign starts, we go through Month Zero, where you have no Hex. Without a Hex, you ignore phase 1 of the process, which is Upkeep. This leads us to the Improvement phase.
Step 1 - Select leadership. As the rules mention, this is the step in which you fill the vacant slot. Your only slot is Ruler at the moment. You unlock the other leadership slots by building certain buildings.
Step 2 - Claim hexes. This is where you claim the hex you'll be staying in. Since you've already decided where your village is, this step is completed.
Step 3 - Establish and Improve cities. You have already established your city. Since you are located in plains, this process takes no time, and you may construct buildings.
This is your city district sheet. What you do this step is spend your BP to build buildings. For this special month, you have no restrictions regarding the amount of buildings you can build - meaning you can build so long as your BP holds.
Essentially, you agree on what you wish to build.
If you want me to, I can fill it out the grid with buildings as you build cities - making it look like this.
However, be wary of your consumption. You will consume 2 BP at the beginning of the game (1 for hex, 1 for city), which grants unrest if you do not have the BP.
Step 4 - Build Roads. An automated process. There is no drawback to building roads apart from the BP cost. Every 4th tile with a road gives you +1 economy, and every 8th tile with a road gives you +1 stability. I do not have a reliable way to draw this on a map, so I recommend you simply decide to build roads in all tiles.
Step 5 - Open Space development. This step will not be possible during Month Zero as you cannot have open space development in the same tile as a city.
Step 6 - Edicts. Lastly, you can choose these. Be mindful of your consumption, however.
This is it for Month Zero.
Okay, so if we start with 15 BP and we take out 2 (1 for hex, 1 for city) that leaves us 13 BP.
So going over the rules you sent me I see what we can buy with what we have.
Claiming a hex for farmland is 1 BP and if I read it right you have to build a road through it so that's another BP, for a total cost of 2 BP, which would leave us with 11 BP. I would recommend that we turn 1 of the hexes adjacent to our town into farmland, because of consumption levels.
After that things aren't so clear, we could build a total of 3 Houses and have 2 BP left over.
We could build up to 11 Tenements, which only cost 1 BP each, but they boost Unrest by 2 per Tenement. On the plus side you can build a house over a Tenement for only 2 BP.
We could build a business such as a Baker, Butcher, Brewery, Mill, Fletcher, Tannery, Weaver, or Smith, for 6 BP each. Any one of these would increase our Economy and Stability by 1, I favor the Mill because we're close to a water source and you can build a Carpentry on that later.
Though off the top of my head I don't think there is a forest close to our town, and I'd have to check the map to see how far from the river we are. I know we're at least several hexes from the lake so a Mill might not be practical right now.
Or we could build a Dump to dispose of refuse which I believe gives you a +1 bonus to Loyalty, or a Village Commons which boosts Stability by 1 and either Economy or Loyalty by the same I can't remember which. Each would cost 4 BP.
Finally we have Edicts:
Taxes - since it's the first month there's not really anything to tax and the higher the tax, the higher your unrest, so I would recommend a starting tax of NONE which would give us a +1 to Loyalty.
Promotions - they cost BP and we don't have that much to spend, so again I would recommend None.
Festivals - If I remember right it raises your consumption level, not now, maybe later, NONE again.
So that's my take on the situation, what do the rest of you think?
I am considering letting you have the Income phase in Month Zero after all - otherwise, it will be a rough start.
Alrighty, Alexei is updated for the game. He is now cleric on 15 point buy. There a part of me that wants to make him a bard, those skills and bardic knowledge look very tempting as a ruler. Alas, we cannot be all things. Anyway, he should be good to go.
As for month zero, I say we build a Mill and road. That will consume 7BP, leaving us with 8. Next month, we will lose 2 for consumption + any from edicts and unfortunate events. Assuming we claim a hex, that'll be another -3, leaving us with 3 -edicts/events. The next month will consume 1 +whatever. So, four months minimum to get consumption under control.
What does everyone think?
@Patcher. The income and event phases should still both happen, I think.
@Lyle Mills aren't just for wood, they are also for grain. Also, we don't have to pay consumption for this month. Consumption is paid at the very beginning, at which point we haven't built or established anything yet, so no consumption.
Reading online it seems the best way to pay for edicts, promotions, and festivals is always with farms. Anything that costs BP or consumption we should always use consumption and pay for it with farms.
Initially I'd like to see us plant several farms so that we have a food base to grow on. Initially I don't think loyalty will be too much of an issue, I think we'd want to concentrate on economy and stability, but I need to reread the guide to be sure. I know making sure we don't advance too far too fast is the way to go.
Do we have a map of the area for this thread? I can't find the old one.
I haven't had time to cut out a smaller area for either group yet.
I concur with Nimeon. Because we have such a low starting BP, it might be a good idea to get our consumption under control right away while working on economical buildings. To me, that means start with a few farms and try for some businesses (like the Mill). Alexei can apply his bonus to economy, which will hopefully bring us some extra BP during the income phases.
We'll have lower economy than stability to start with because we are neutral instead of lawful, so it would be a good idea to boost it as soon as possible I think.
Wow, I didn't realize the other village was that close, I thought it was on the other side of the forest by Whitelake. We night run into them sooner than we thought.
So I was reviewing the kingdom building rules, and I noticed something rather interesting. Each farm you own reduces your Consumption by 2, so if we have two farms are Consumption will be reduced by 4. I definitely think that would be worth 4 BP, I also think building a Mill is a good idea, particularly with our location.
They are indeed close. Of course, exploring a hex will take one or two days, ca., and you are very limited in how many hexes you can claim and buildings you can make early on. Even if you meet each other, that doesn't mean you'll be competing for tiles early on.
Okay, just making sure I'm reading everything correctly.
Month Zero, we claim the Fairweather hex, build a road and a mill, then begin exploring local hexes for farmland, spending 8 BP? I agree with Nimeon on building a good base of farms as quickly as is reasonable; the consumption buffer would at least give us more room for error.
For expansion, I vote we go south. There appear to be roads, or at least the remains of such in that direction, which could save us BP on construction.
I concur. We need the base of farmland right away. I say we initially claim the four plains hexes right next to us. Gives us a nice base to expand from, and provides buffer from anything coming at our capital.
@Patcher what are your thoughts on water hexes? The two hexes to our right are almost entirely water, and I was curious.
I don't see the roads you're talking about, I was going to suggest that we follow the river that runs through Fairweather.
We already control 1 hex that has a river running through it, and according to the rules if we have 3 more river hexes, for a total of 4, it boosts are Economy by 1.
Also if we have 8 hexes that have roads in them, it gives us a +1 to our Stability. So if we follow the river and build a road through those 3 hexes and we have 5 more with roads through them we have an easy 1 time bonus to Economy and Stability.
After that I think it would be good to go to the Narlwoods so we can get wood for building materials, I also think being connected to a forest reduces your Consumption by 1. The only problem is how to get there, If we go the short route through the Narlmarshes it's only 3 hexes to the forest.
But I think it takes about 4 days to explore each swamp hex, and 8 BP to build a road through each swamp hex. So going the short route would take us 2 weeks and cost us at least 24 BP.
In the short term it would probably make better sense to go around the lake, we have to explore 8 grassland hexes which I think only takes about a day per hex and build a road through each. Which would cost 8 BP, we'd probably also have to establish a camp in a forest hex which cost at least 6 BP, I think.
Not sure of my math, and we may not have enough BP next month to make it happen, so this is all speculation at this point. Going south might be more practical after all.
2 questions, first are the dark green hexes that aren't forest or mountains, hill country? Sounds obvious when I put it like that, but I like to be sure about these things.
And two, has everyone thought about what office they might like to hold? I know Alexi, is going to be our Ruler, Calavas has said he wants to be our Magister, Khalil I think said he wants to be a Marshal, I myself am thinking of being either a Spymaster or a Warden.
I just think it would give us an idea of what buildings it would prioritize. Make that 3 questions can a PC hold more than one office? I believe in the rules it says that every office that isn't held by a PC has to be held by a NPC. I'm just wondering if it's only 1 PC per office.
Actually, now that I think about it if the A and B teams merged their two villages and lands together, we could pool our resources and each one of us could hold an office, we could adventure apart and get together once a month to fulfill our offices.
That might be the most efficient way to go about it, of course it's all speculation at this point, neither village even knows the other one exists and even if they did that doesn't mean they would automatically decide to join together.
Or that such a merger would be without problems, for 1 thing I think each village has their own Ruler, which means 1 would have to step aside for the other.
Yeah, that probably wouldn't go over too well, I'm probably getting ahead of myself, let's take it one step at a time and see where it goes.
So, North or South, what do you guys think?
Or that such a merger would be without problems, for 1 thing I think each village has their own Ruler, which means 1 would have to step aside for the other.
Unless there is a marriage involved!
Actually, is it too late to move our initial hex claim? We may be better off closer to Whitelake on the other side of the Narlwoods (unless there was a reason for not being there that I forgot, too dangerous?). We are kind of backed up against swamps here, and swamps, if I recall (no access to rules at the moment), are difficult to deal with.
What do you all think?
I've no objections if Patcher doesn't. That gets us farther from the other group as well. As long as we keep a river and some grasslands around us our plan can stay the same and we'll be just as well off.
If you wish to move your location, go ahead - though I recommend you go far to the east if you do, rather than close to the middle lake. Simply for the sake of security. Closer to the mountains, potentially.
Marriage. Marriage is what brings us together, today. ^_^
I picked the site mostly on metagame knowledge. The lake should make it easy to transport wood from the forest and give us a trade link from Brevoy to Andoran. Hopefully, it will allow easy access to both House Lebeda and House Vaylen.
If I remember, Patcher said the area around Whitelake was the heart of Celtara, and had effectively been turned into high level ruins/dungeons. I say keep away from the Big Bads for a while. It is a nice area though. If the party wants to change locations, that's cool, but I'd rather stay where we are.
@Lyle: We can only claim/develop one hex a month, initially. I'm hoping that Patcher will let us use boats/pier to connect with the forest. The dark green hexes are hills. Following the river might not be a bad idea.
@Lyle My bad, I was looking at the wrong village.
So if further to the east is preferable, maybe we should border Lake Kobold's Claw? Perhaps at the 'heel' of the claw, near the river outlet?
I think being further to the east, near the mountains, would be preferable to by a swamp, personally. By the Kobold's Claw is fine with me. But in the end I'm happy to support whatever everyone else wants to do.
I can't get the map to upload right now, I'll try again tomorrow. But from what I remember I wouldn't have a problem with our town being located at the Kobold's Claw.
Ok, it's tomorrow and it looks like my memory is correct. I concur with Calavas's suggestion, we should place our village in the bottom half of the hex, where the Kobold's Claw lake outlet's to a river.
That way as Nimeon said, we can put the plan we had in action. So after we claim the Fairweather hex, we can explore the river hexes next to us, with an eye towards claiming them and turning them into farmland.
Sound good?
O.K., had a chance to review the rules (again), if I'm reading the map right at the new location, we will be in hill country.
Looking at Table 1-1, on page 3 of the Book of the River Nations, that means it will take us 2 days to explore each Hill hex and 3 days to explore each Mountain hex. That's assuming our lowest movement rate is 30 ft., it would also take 3 days to explore each Swamp hex.
And on page 14, it states that it will cost 4 BP, to turn each Hill hex into Farms, instead of the 2 BP it will cost in Grassland hexes.
But since Table 2-1 on page 7, shows that for a Kingdom our size we can only claim 1 hex a month (thanks for bringing that to my attention Alexi), I personally don't see how we'd be worse off moving to the Kobold Lake site.
P.S. I printed out the rulebook for Kingdom Building, does it show?
Sounds great. River hexes will be slightly trickier with roads, with the increased need for bridges, but the bonus to economy seems worth it. May I further suggest a southwestern eye for expansion; it keeps us away from the borders of Brevoy, and both Whitelake and Candlemere look tempting for future townships.
Sounds like a plan, by my count it will take us 4 months in game time to claim 4 hexes. In that time we should be able to explore most of the lower valley.
So, I'd recommend after we explore the hexes next to our town, that we intend to claim. We head up over the mountains, toward the Brevoy Border, head along the border towards the back of the map, work are way down and going up and down the map, head for the Old Narlwoods.
By the time we get there, at 100 xp per hex, not including any random encounters, we should be at least 3rd or 4th lvl., maybe even 5th. And we'd also have a good idea of what's in our backyard.
At least that's what I think, how bout you guys?
I think that's a good start. We may find, as we play, that certain areas will interest us more than others. Rumors of something, or a quest. So it's a good start, but we'll probably end up adjusting what we do as we play. A lot can happen in 4 months in game!
Not to mention, whatever the DM chooses to throw at us.
So, we've got a group, a location for our town, an alignment for our community, a ruler, a plan of action and a stated direction to begin exploring in.
I could be wrong, but I think we're ready to start adventuring. All Patcher needs to do is update the map and give us the go ahead.
Unless, someone can think of something else we need to do?
Quick question Lyle, is there anything saying we need to turn the hexes next to our village into farmland first? Hills are slightly less efficient than plains, but if we're surrounded by hills is there anything saying we can't have our farms down on the plains?
I think (but I haven't looked to confirm yet) that you have to claim hexes directly adjacent to a hex you already own. So it might take us a few months to even claim a plain hex in the first place. Unless we move a little closer to one to begin with.
Correct. You have to claim hexes adjacent to you.
Well so much for that plan. Either way I think farming is the way to go. Sounds like we have a consensus and are ready to get this kingdom started?
I'm good to go.
Everything looks good to me. Let's break some ground!
Amen. Let's get the gameplay thread up.
Ready, willing, and able!
All right. Last step before we begin.
Month Zero!
Step 0 - Choose your alignment!
Neutral Good: +2 Loyalty, +2 Stability
Step 1 - Choose your leadership!
It seems Alexei is your leader? Which role does his Charisma bonus affect?
Step 2 - Claim your hex!
The bottom of Kobold's Claw, right?
Step 3 - Create city and build buildings!
Which buildings are you building?
Step 4 & 5 - Roads! And Open Space!
Not eligible during Month 0.
Step 6 - Edicts!
Do you have any edicts?
Step 1 - Well, I can't speak for Alexi, but since we don't have a bonus to Economy, because of our alignment I assume that's where he would be putting his Charisma bonus. But again it's his call.
Step 2 - I think we all agreed that the bottom of Kobold's Claw, would be the first hex we claimed. At least I haven't heard anyone say we wouldn't.
Step 3 - Last I heard we'd all agreed to build a Mill, it was the primary reason we chose a hex with a lake and a river.
Step 6 - Not that I know of, not this month anyhow, but I don't speak for everyone.
Step 1 Alexei will focus on economy for +2
Step 2 Correct.
Step 3 Mill -6BP
Step 4 Road -2BP
Step 5 Establish city hex.
Step 6 Light taxation: +1 economy/-1 Loyalty, Token promtion: +1 Stabilty/-1BP, No Festivals: -1 Loyalty.
People seemed like they wanted the bonus for econ, which is fine. I'm a bit worried about our stability though.
I say we have some taxation, as we need all the econ help we can get. Token promotion because I really don't like stability penalties. No festivals because Loyalty isn't that important at the moment and it costs money.
Remember everyone. Farms will now cost us 4BP, which combined with claiming, roads, and probably bridges takes us to 6/7 BP per farm hex. It's not too late to return to the plains! (And my river! 4BP per farm hex... What kind of despot can't even choose his own home base. I'll never get into the Evil Overlord Society at this rate.)
Overall, this should give us a total bonus of
Stabilty: +4
Economy: +4
Loyalty: +0
Against a DC of 11
And a treasury of 7BP after mill and road.