Maxximilius |
So, recently I was looking at some movies and reading some books.
I rediscovered at numerous occasions a special type of character that I believe is as interesting as a character than it is memorable as a villain.
While there are archetypes putting emphasis on deception, lies and personality, none of them allowed you to fully play a mustachioed, magnificent bastard seducing or betraying heroes while looking more wealthy and distinguished than dangerous.
Who would suspect the middle-aged, well-clothed gentleman or lady with a cane, especially after (s)he gave you some useful tips ?
(Oh, and the sword cane was so bad and roleplay-punishing it made me cry.)
Since it replaces the Evasion class feature, the dandy is stackable with any other rogue archetype. The reasons for this are that being a gentleman doesn't really qualify as a carreer path and that, thematically, it is easy to find dandys with all kinds of specialties in popular culture :
- Alex from A Clockwork Orange is a dandy thug.
- Arsène Lupin is a dandy burglar chameleon.
- Capitaine Chevalle from Pirates of the Carribean is a dandy pirate.
- Bill Miner was a dandy bandit, by his maneers and courtesy.
- D'Artagnan, chevalier du Roi was a dandy swashbuckler.
- Etc.
Any comment is welcomed. I hope you will find the dandy to your taste ! :)
Dandy
Some rogues, whatever their specialty, are more than simple thieves. Either born in nobility or adopting the sophistication of the wealthy, dandies are magnificent rascals, whose appearance and maneers never fail to deceive. Charming ladies and gentlemen by nature, few people are more adept to shine in high society than a dandy, and their looks are an integral part of their arsenal – literally. Indeed, when times ask for blood to be spilled, dandys are able to make use of their attire at it's fullest ; and if a cane is only a last resort weapon for most people, it is a dandy's handy trick when it comes to surprise an opponent and fight with panache.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Dandys are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the rapier and the sword cane. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Class Skills
A dandy adds Knowledge (Nobility) and Knowledge (History) to her class skills.
Deceiving Elegance (Ex)
At 2nd level, a dandy may use any clothing glove as a sap, and any kind of cane sword she holds like a finessable weapon with the Trip and Disarm weapon properties. When used this way, the cane is either treated as an appropriately sized club when sheated, or a 19-20x2 piercing weapon when unsheated, and can't be wielded two-handed.
Moreover, whenever the dandy could deal a sneak attack, she may add half her number of sneak attack damage dices to her Combat Maneuver Bonus (minimum 1) for the purpose of the Trip, Disarm, Steal, and Dirty Trick combat maneuvers.
Tricky elegance can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor.
This ability replaces evasion.
Rogue Talents: The following rogue talents complement the dandy archetype: charmer, strong impression, underhanded, surprise attack, honeyed words, black market connections, convincing lies, and finesse rogue.
Advanced Talents: The following advanced rogue talents complement the dandy archetype: confounding blades, rumormonger, unwitting ally, and redirect attack.
Maxximilius |
Maxximilius,
As a big fan of dandy Rogues, I really like this succinct archetype. I've just one question: Is "Deceiving Elegance" the same as "Tricky Elegance"?
EJVW,
As a big fan of dandy rogues myself, but also way too much inattentive these days, I did two editing mistakes while writing this archetype that somehow made it past several reading checks.
The first is "dandies" is the fluff description, and the second is "Tricky Elegance" which was an ability working a bit differently - this ability has become "Deceiving Elegance" because it finally became a better name.
So, yes, it is just an editing mistake.
(Also, shucks for me, I think I forgot some more details :
- You may use a glove clothing accessory as a sap, but as written, the dandy loses Sap proficiency. The dandy should be proficient with her gloves used as saps. I can just imagine a level 8 dandy being offended and slapping a guy in the face with her glove, using the Sap Master feat tree and Underhanded talents. Clearly, a 10 Str dandy dealing 60 damage in one blow from a glove is a good way to express your profound dislike of someone's boorishness.
- I don't know if the dandy should treat her canes as double weapons for the purpose of enhancements. In either case, it should be written as to not leave any question unanswered about this topic.)
--------
5 Stone Games,
I am happy to see you find this little archetype interesting. Let me know if you have suggestions, or the opportunity to play it !
--------
Also, I forgot to mention Baron Humbert von Gikkingen, as an example of dandy detective/roof runner/spy/swashbuckler in Ghibli studios's "The Cat Returns" and "Whisper of the Heart".
Maxximilius |
They barely have enough money to buy a cane at first level.
Also, the bonus to CMs will just let them keep up with fighters
Rogues have a 140 GP average at first level, a sword cane is 45 GP. So, in average, 1/3 of their wealth going into a weapon with furtivity advantages at lower levels, that you will be able to use as real weapons later. Having one at first level doesn't really strike me as problematic, especially because being literally a dandy by your roleplay and background, do you really know GMs who would be big enough jerks to refuse you this accessory ?
Is "only keeping up with fighters" something a rogue has to be ashamed of ?
To my knowledge, there is no way to improve your CMB with a rogue other than hitting when the foe is denied his dexterity bonus or hindered. The dandy merely is able to get a nice little bonus on his maneuver whenever the enemy is already caught at a bad time, something the rogue is expert in. It's all about a balance between mixing honorable dueling and dirty fighting styles, like a true tricky dandy.
I only removed some weapon proficiencies and the Evasion class feature, so even if it wouldn't give me a problem to write "You win the game by looking great. This doesn't have any effect in game.", I have to make sure the archetype stays balanced. ;)
Right now, you get versatility with a weapon synergizing well with a betrayer/charmer style, some nifty options to surprise an enemy with style, and a bonus to maneuvers when doing so... I didn't have the opportunity to playtest it yet, but I feel like adding more to this would only be too much.
Maxximilius |
Err hmm. I thought they got less than that starting.
I would just give an unconditional bonus to those CMs.
It's hard enough to get sneak attack!
You mean, except with the Underhanded talent, Shatter Defenses feat, Feint action and feats, Betrayer feat, Hunter's Surprise talent, two easily concealables and drawed weapons as their best tricks including a light and a one-handed to make the best use of TWFing, all things the class is naturally awesome at thanks to high dexterity, unique class features and charisma ? :o)
I understand your concern, and the class could probably get the "half sneak attack number of dices as a bonus to CMB" whenever she does a maneuver instead of only when she is able to hit with a sneak attack.
I just think the dandy doesn't really need it, since a typical dandy has enough intelligence, charisma and ways to use them to get around this difficulty. We'll see how the discussion turns and if more people share your feeling, as I trust the people here to point at any designing problem for the system. :)
EDIT : Btw, before someone asks => if you take Firearm proficiency with Pistol sword canes, you can indeed use them with Tricky Elegance.
Maxximilius |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rewritten as to delete editing typos, to add details, an option, and to avoid any confusion on some features.
As cheapy suggested, the bonus to CMB when using some thematic maneuvers is now constant.
The use of a cane's scabbard as a combat scabbard and the sword cane as a weapon with the disarm property makes Catch off-guard a nifty option...
Hope you'll like it enough to play one someday (I know I will) ! :)
Dandy
Some rogues, whatever their specialty, are more than simple thieves. Either born in nobility or adopting the sophistication of the wealthy, dandys are magnificent rascals, whose appearance and maneers never fail to deceive. Charming ladies and gentlemen by nature, few people are more adept to shine in high society than a dandy, and their looks are an integral part of their arsenal – literally. Indeed, when times ask for blood to be spilled, dandys are able to make use of their attire at it's fullest ; and if a cane is only a last resort weapon for most people, it is a dandy's handy trick when it comes to surprise an opponent and fight with panache.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Dandys are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the rapier and the sword cane. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Class Skills
A dandy adds Knowledge (Nobility) and Knowledge (History) to her class skills.
Deceiving Elegance (Ex)
At 2nd level, a dandy may use any clothing glove as a sap when held, or a gauntlet when worn. She is considered proficient with this specific accessory when used as a sap, and may conceal a glove even when observed. A dandy may magically enhance her clothing glove as a weapon.
Also, a dandy may treat any kind of sword cane she holds like a finessable weapon with the Trip and Disarm weapon properties. When used this way, the cane is either treated as an appropriately sized club when sheated, or a 19-20x2 piercing weapon when unsheated, and can't be wielded two-handed. A cane sword used this way isn't considered a double weapon for the purpose of enhancing it, but any specific enhancement on the cane must meet the normal prerequisites or cease to function (for example, a keen or vorpal sword cane loses these properties when used as a club). When the blade is unsheated, the scabbard can be used as a combat scabbard but doesn't retain any magical property unless it is enhanced separately as a weapon (in which case these properties only work when the scabbard is used separately).
Finally, the dandy may add half her number of sneak attack damage dices to her Combat Maneuver Bonus (minimum 1) for the purpose of the Trip, Disarm, Steal, and Dirty Trick combat maneuvers.
Deceiving elegance can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor.
This ability replaces evasion.
Rogue Talents: The following rogue talents complement the dandy archetype: charmer, strong impression, underhanded, surprise attack, honeyed words, black market connections, convincing lies, and finesse rogue.
Advanced Talents: The following advanced rogue talents complement the dandy archetype: confounding blades, rumormonger, unwitting ally, and redirect attack.
Suggested feat trees : Betrayer, Greater/TWFing Feint, Weapon Finesse, Crane Style, Firearm Proficiency (Pistol sword cane), Shatter Defenses, Sap Master, Catch Off Guard.
Suggested equipment : +x Agile weapon, Dueling weapon, Murderer's Blackcloth, Hat of Disguise, Circlet of Persuasion.
Maxximilius |
Ok guys, playtested one of these during last game. By myself as a friendly NPC, and by the DM as a magnificent sonovabich.
Even though I felt like there were too much options at first, it is actually... pretty efficient and "versatile", since a dandy has often several options and weapons to attack depending on what you need : catch someone off-guard, draw fast enough, deal non-lethal, attempt a maneuver... even more than a fighter.
Here is the build we used. It contains the Rake and Bandit archetypes for fluff and synergy, but you already understood that they are by no means obligatory, and that said build is only an example of a typical Dandy/Rake/Bandit.
He's a bit weak on HP, but nothing you couldn't deal with by reducing Strength and Intelligence for Constitution, spending all predilection class bonuses on HP, taking Toughness, buying a Ioun stone... which isn't done here for a better "average evil NPC" feeling.
Fressange Brulem
LE Rogue (Rake, Dandy, Bandit) level 10
10
24 (18+2 level+4 Belt)
12
13
10
16 (14+2 Headband)
HP: 9d8+22 = average 58
Init: +7
Fort = 3+1+1 = 5
Ref = 7+7+1 = 15
Will = 3+0+1 = 4
AC = 10 + 6(Armor) + 1(Deflection) + 1(Nat) + 7(Dex)
= 25/19/18
BAB : +7/+2
Att : +14/+9
CMB : +7
- On Disarm with sword cane : 7 + 7(Dex) + 1(Magic) + 2(Luck/dueling) + 2(Disarm.prop.) + 2(Dandy) = +21
- On Trip/Dirty Trick : 7 + 7(Dex) + 1(Magic) + 2(Luck/dueling) + 2(Dandy) = +19
- On Steal : 7 + 2(Dandy) : +9
CMD : 10 + 7 = 17
- Against Disarm/Trip/Dirty Trick : 17 + 2(Luck/Dueling) = 19
Feint : +4 Bonus to check (+2 Luck/Dueling, +2 Dandy)
Att. Sword Cane : 14 + 1(Mag) = +15
Dam. Sword Cane : 7(Agile) + 1(Mag) = +8
Sword Cane +1, agile, dueling : +15/+10 ; 1d6+8 (19-20x2)
Combat Scabbard, MWK (As improvised weapon) : +15/+10 ; 1d6 (20x2)
Gauntlet/Sap (nonlethal) : +15/+10 ; 1d6 (20x2)
- With Betrayer :
1) Successful Diplomacy check => As an immediate action, draw and attack once with a weapon.
2) Surprise round started, may attack once as a standard action.
3) All enemies are flat-footed against the rogue during surprise round, thanks to Surprise Attack.
- With Underhanded :
Max sneak attack damage on the surprise round, 3/day.
Exemple of use :
1) Betrayer feat, with gloves as a sap for attack as immediate action during surprise round (Sap master, 1d6+10d6+20 = 1d6+80)
2) Draw sword, use it as a standard action during surprise round (1d6+8+5d6 = 1d6+38).
- With Catch Off-Guard :
1) Use the dueling sword cane to disarm the enemy.
2) Use combat scabbard to make enemy flat-footed and deal sneak attacks.
Class features :
- Bravado’s Blade
- Sneak Attack = 5d6 (Sap master : 10d6+20 on nonlethal damage)
- Rake's Smile (+3 to bluff and diplomacy)
- Ambush
- Fearsome Strike
- Improved Evasion
Talents :
2. Finesse Rogue
4. Underhanded
6. Surprise Attack
6. (Predilection class bonus) Offensive Defense (+1 dodge to AC for each sneak attack die rolled... +20 AC with Sap Master someone ?)
8. Convincing lies
10. Improved Evasion (fun fact, you don't NEED Evasion for this talent, and you get Evasion in the package...)
Feats :
H. Quick Draw
1. Persuasive
2R. Weapon Finesse
3. Sap Adept
5. Betrayer
7. Sap Master
9. Catch off-guard
62 000
+4 Dexterity belt (16 000)
+2 Charisma headband (4000)
42 000
+1 Agile* Dueling* Sword Cane (*Pathfinder Society Field Guide)
23 500
+3 Mithral Parade Armor (+2 to intimidation and diplomacy against country-born people)
12 400
Masterwork Leather Gloves
12 000
+1 Protection ring
+1 Natural armor amulet
10 000
Hat of disguise
8 200
Circlet of Persuasion
3 700
+1 Cloak of resistance
2 700
Potions (Invisibility, shield of faith...)
(Think about investing in Merciful sword cane or combat scabbard later, or instead of "Agile", for good effect on sneak attacks...)
Potential damage on one round, two sneak attacks at best BAB with Underhanded talent :
=> Nonlethal 1d6+80 + lethal 1d6+38. Nothing impossible without being a dandy, but pretty good nonetheless and easier to deal at higher levels.
High nova potential, average durability without a good Constitution, good debuff options.
Also, as a fun detail, note that a halfling, or even a goblin is just awesomesauce on this kind of character. I don't think your players will see it comin' from the petty child-sized, mannered humanoid.
Thanael |
I love the idea of a dandy archetype. The execution is promising so far. Making it stackable with all other archetypes is brilliant. I see great potential for several new mini archetypes of this kind: changing only class skills, weapon and armour proficiencies and perhaps 1 other class ability, and being combinable with most other archetpyes.
Gentleman/dandy, craven/assassin (add garotte, bladeboot proficiency, remove diplomacy or something...), rural (remove knowledge dungeoneering, add ride, survival and knowledge nature skills, remove hand crossbow and rapier, add scythe, handaxe) come to mind for the rogue.
But this might work for other classes as well. Feel some skills are missing? Make a mini archetype. Planar and oriental come to mind immediately..
In this case the removal of evasion fits quite well (a gentleman walks but never runs!), as does the removal of handcrossbow and shortbow and of course the addition of the sword cane. I would remove knowledge dungeoneering though.
But what I don't get is the glove ability. Slapping someone in the face with an elegant glove and having that person keel over unconscious, just breaks my suspension of disbelief. And how is a simple clothing glove able to do lethal damage if worn? A gauntlet is made of metal at least. He can buy a lined gauntlet/brass knuckles if he wants, but as I would consider it quite ungentlemanly, i would definately drop that part of the ability.
Maxximilius |
Thanks for the review and opinion, I'm glad you liked the concept and overall execution !
At first, adding proficiency in bladeboot was envisaged, but since the archetype already gives nifty options, I removed it.
Some would argue it wouldn't make sense to go so far for a dandy, but it's still a rogue at core. And when I read again the swashbuckler when I was searching for potential synergy or useless redundancy in archetypes class features, I was remembered that they gain proficiency in one martial weapon, so specific proficiencies like bladeboot where left off - you will need to use a talent or to be a swashbuckler to fight in this style.
You may also include the following line in the dandy's weapon proficiency : "In a setting where firearms are commonplace or everywhere, a dandy also gains proficiency in the pistol sword cane."
Mini-archetypes may indeed work for some classes, but don't forget there are also traits to give class skills. Unless you give up a specific class feature for a thematic other (d8 sneak attack for the assassin ?), it would be interesting to do an universal Background Archetype rule which allows you to replace up to three class skills and martial weapon proficiencies with three thematic others (or one exotic weapon for the proficiencies), for example.
Concerning the glove ability, the problem I saw was that you could simply sacrifice the fluff for efficiency, just by using a real weapon. Slapping someone in the face with a glove all the while dealing a nice-to-really-good amount of damage stroke me as funny and stylish, showing you can have both the cool and the useful. Dealing lethal damage with a glove used as a gauntlet is meant to represent ye olde boxing-like moves a dandy could naturally have when it comes to deal with a foe - don't forget they still provoke if they don't have Improved Unarmed Strike, and that they have a lot more ways to attack which are more useful than this one with the sword cane alone.
I admit that dealing damage with the glove as a gauntlet or a sap, as useful as it could be with the Underhanded and Sap Master tree, may be "too much" from a suspension of disbelief point of view (I remain convinced that from a balance and fluff one, there is no problem)... maybe make it a debuff, like giving the enemy the Shaken or Sickened condition when slaped with the glove ?
VM mercenario |
But what I don't get is the glove ability. Slapping someone in the face with an elegant glove and having that person keel over unconscious, just breaks my suspension of disbelief. And how is a simple clothing glove able to do lethal damage if worn? A gauntlet is made of metal at least. He can buy a lined gauntlet/brass knuckles if he wants, but as I would consider it quite ungentlemanly, i would definately drop that part of the ability.
I challenge you to a duel! *SLAP* Oh, my, he fainted. I guess he could handle fighting like a gentleman...
I admit that dealing damage with the glove as a gauntlet or a sap, as useful as it could be with the Underhanded and Sap Master tree, may be "too much" from a suspension of disbelief point of view (I remain convinced that from a balance and fluff one, there is no problem)... maybe make it a debuff, like giving the enemy the Shaken or Sickened condition when slaped with the glove ?
Nah, it's good already. I like to think the dandy rogue sneaks a couple of coins inside the glove when he removes it to use as a sap, and the glove has small metal plaques on the knucles, inside of course soit doesn't ruin the image.
Maxximilius |
Maybe the best of both worlds ? Half damage on the slap, and a condition, like Shaken/Sickened/a nerfed Confusion effect ?
Or a line which says you can't knock an enemy unconscious with a slap from a glove used as a sap, reducing it to a maximum of Disabled at best so the "one-hit humiliation KO" image isn't possible ? I may be inclined to go this route for balance and fluff. Putting you enemy on it's knees is more "realistic" than outright knocking them out, even with a glove full of coins, and reducing them to a maximum of one attack assures you some security afterward so you don't get mauled. If you wish to KO them outright, there is always an advanced talent at higher levels...
Right now, you can't really OHKO someone if you don't have good skills, or the right combination of feats, traits, a good number of levels, and some luck. Lots of ressources for a limited use/per day.
And even then, you can only be this lethal against low HP enemies : average fighter HP at level 10, with 16 Con, toughness and class predilection bonus on HP would be minimum 69, average 99,5 and maximum 150. Another rogue would probably have class features to be immune against the flat-footed condition, same for a barbarian.
Still, I can understand how it could be frustrating to be downed by a glove slapping... see the combo posted previously to deal two sneaks with full damage on surprise round. And this combo would be way more deadly with a merciful sword cane instead of Agile.
On the other hand, the rogue probably fears your counter-attack way more than you fear his initial slapping, which brings me back again to the "Disabled is the maximum effect you can deal" rule...
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
Also, a dandy may treat any kind of sword cane she holds like a finessable weapon with the Trip and Disarm weapon properties. When used this way, the cane is either treated as an appropriately sized club when sheated, or a 19-20x2 piercing weapon when unsheated, and can't be wielded two-handed.
So, my assumption is the sheathed sword cane, and the unsheathed sword blade get Trip and Disarm, but the combat scabbard does not, correct?
Maxximilius |
I don't remember which little fixes I could have written since October 2011, but there it is for the last version available. :)
The dandy rogue may have been updated since then. To answer your question, yes : the sword cane possesses the Trip and Disarm properties, but the scabbard itself used as a separate weapon once the blade is unsheated does not, as it is then treated as a combat scabbard.
It may be cool and flavorful to allow the dandy rogue to lose the scabbard only and retain the sword if he is disarmed, or miserably fails a disarm check.
Please also note that Paizo errata-ed the Trip, Disarm and Sunder combat maneuvers : you don't need the Trip and Disarm weapon properties anymore to apply your weapon's bonuses to attack to your combat maneuvers made with your weapon. Trip only allows you to let your weapon fall to not be tripped back on a fail ; Disarm does the same but provides you with a +2 to your Disarm roll. Same thing for Agile Maneuvers that isn't required, if you have the Weapon Finesse feat, you may use your Dex instead of Str for any Trip/Disarm/Sunder attack roll.
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
Thanks for the update. I'm currently introducing a new character (level 7) to an existing group so I decided to play a hobgoblin dandy raised by a noble family from a neighboring kingdom. Raised in the sheltered world of nobility, he has little understanding of the peasantry or why they choose to live the way they do. The roleplaying aspect of this character is a blast, especially because his racial heritage is anything but that of a gentleman.
I'm working on getting the mechanics of the character built to ensure he is a boon to the party (beyond just a greater sense of style and decorum).
Maxximilius |
If you are starting at level 7, you'll have a nice amount of talents and feats to support your concept, whether it is with roleplay or combat efficiency. Don't forget the build suggestions :
Rogue Talents: The following rogue talents complement the dandy archetype: charmer, strong impression, underhanded, surprise attack, honeyed words, black market connections, convincing lies, and finesse rogue.
Advanced Talents: The following advanced rogue talents complement the dandy archetype: confounding blades, rumormonger, unwitting ally, and redirect attack.
Suggested feat trees: Betrayer, Greater/TWFing Feint, Weapon Finesse, Crane Style, Firearm Proficiency (Pistol sword cane), Shatter Defenses, Sap Master, Catch Off Guard.
Suggested equipment: Agile weapon, Dueling weapon, Murderer's Blackcloth, Hat of Disguise, Circlet of Persuasion.
I'm particularly fond of the Betrayer + Sap Master feat trees with the Underhanded and Deft Palm rogue talents. 2 x maximum sneak attack damage plus a bonus per dice... twice in the surprise round ? Yes please.
Limited per day, deals non-lethal damage and requires you to succeed at a diplomacy check, but :
- Use a Merciful glove as a gauntlet, a sap or a Merciful sword cane, draw and attack with it as an immediate action after diplomacy check. Potential sneak attack if the enemy is flat-footed.
- Succeeding at your initiative roll ? Draw your sword from it's scabbard as a free action or a concealed weapon from Deft Palm and attack once more the poor fella with your standard action. Bonus points if this is another nonlethal bludegoning weapon.
Note that Underhanded could not work with Sap Master/Sap Adept, since the first makes you roll no dice while the second gives a bonus when rolling sneak attack. In any way, read carefully the rules for concealment, surprise rounds, etc.
With one attack with a merciful cane sword in the surprise round (or sap), you are aiming for a base 1d6+(8d6+16) nonlethal on your first attack (+1d6 if merciful cane sword) ; and 1d6+24 underhanded damage on your standard action attack with the same unsheated weapon (or another 1d6+8d6+16 if you use a deft palm-concealed sap).
Or even, fight bare-handed like a gentleman, unarmed strikes are nonlethal... ;)
I'd like to see some simple feedback on how the class played out if you can when you've got time. Hope you'll enjoy playing the dandy !
Kevin Andrew Murphy Contributor |
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
I like a lot of the flavor, but would be more inclined to just making the sword cane better across the board. I already house rule that all stick-like object of appropriate heft count as clubs anyway, and having a glove filled with lead shot or gold coins is a classic way of making a sap too.
My GM already house ruled that the sword in a sword cane is equivalent to a rapier hence an 18-20/2x stat and I treat it as a club when closed.
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
With one attack with a merciful cane sword in the surprise round (or sap), you are aiming for a base 1d6+(8d6+16) nonlethal on your first attack (+1d6 if merciful cane sword) ; and 1d6+24 underhanded damage on your standard action attack with the same unsheated weapon (or another 1d6+8d6+16 if you use a deft palm-concealed sap).
Or even, fight bare-handed like a gentleman, unarmed strikes are nonlethal... ;)
Initially I was thinking of the sequence (at level 7):
1) Draw sword from cane as a free action (Quick Draw)
2) Disarm opponent with sword attack.
3) Smack them with the scabbard for 10d6+12 :: 1d6(weapon) + 8d6(Sap Master) + 1d6(Merciful) +12(Sap Adept)
I thought there was a feat or something that allowed me to treat people in the surprise round as flat-footed, but I'm not finding it.
Also, since being disarmed doesn't grant a flat-footed state I don't know what real value there is in me disarming first (other than them not being able to attack back.)
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
Well, the Dandy does make the sword cane better and can use the scabbard as the weapon ; and his "improvised" weapons aren't treated as such, can be made magic and are easier to conceal, so it actually gets candy over classic tricks. :)
BTW... The whole idea of enchanting improvised weapons is really reaking havoc with Hero Lab. This build is definately gonna take a lot of notes to keep track of.
Maxximilius |
Initially I was thinking of the sequence (at level 7):
1) Draw sword from cane as a free action (Quick Draw)
2) Disarm opponent with sword attack.
3) Smack them with the scabbard for 10d6+12 :: 1d6(weapon) + 8d6(Sap Master) + 1d6(Merciful) +12(Sap Adept)I thought there was a feat or something that allowed me to treat people in the surprise round as flat-footed, but I'm not finding it.
Enemies that aren't able to act during a surprise round because they didn't perceive you are treated as flat-footed until they act in the next round. :)
The feat you are searching for is actually the Surprise Attack talent, it treats enemies that have not yet acted during the fight a flat-footed.This means that with the Betrayer feat :
1. No combat yet : Immediate action draw + attack, surprise round begins if the enemy treats you as a friendly creature.
2. Surprise round : Move or standard action. Both if you are a Bandit. You may attack once, enemy is still flat-footed. Full sneak damage on Underhanded talent.
3. Combat really begins : Roll initiative. If enemy didn't act yet, he is still flat-footed. Enjoy your full attack sneak orgy.
1. No combat yet : enemy perceives you as a foe, he is not flat-footed against this betrayer attack.
2. Combat begins, roll initiative. If Surprise Attack talent and you win initiative, enemy is flat-footed.
Without the feat :
1. No combat yet : Enemy didn't see you or don't see you as a menace.
2. Surprise round : Move or standard action. Both if you are a Bandit. You may attack once, enemy is still flat-footed. Full sneak damage on Underhanded talent.
3. Combat really begins : Roll initiative. If enemy didn't act yet, he is still flat-footed. Enjoy your full attack sneak orgy.
1. No combat yet : enemy perceives you as a foe, he is not flat-footed.
2. Combat begins : Roll initiative. If Surprise Attack talent and you win initiative, enemy is flat-footed.
Also, since being disarmed doesn't grant a flat-footed state I don't know what real value there is in me disarming first (other than them not being able to attack back.)
You may want to disarm the target on your first round of fight, not during the betrayer attack or surprise round, except if you don't get the Underhanded talent. So you slap hard the guy with Sap Master, draw the sword as a free action and disarm it before the battle even really begins !
Maxximilius |
Maxximilius wrote:Well, the Dandy does make the sword cane better and can use the scabbard as the weapon ; and his "improvised" weapons aren't treated as such, can be made magic and are easier to conceal, so it actually gets candy over classic tricks. :)BTW... The whole idea of enchanting improvised weapons is really reaking havoc with Hero Lab. This build is definately gonna take a lot of notes to keep track of.
Simply treat any "improvised" weapon as the weapon it replaces. So the glove for example is just a sap/gauntlet that you can conceal with a stealth check opposed to enemy's perception. It means that a single weapon is similar to others, but that doesn't count against your WBL obviously since this is a class feature.
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
Enemies that aren't able to act during a surprise round because they didn't perceive you are treated as flat-footed until they act in the next round. :)
The feat you are searching for is actually the Surprise Attack talent, it treats enemies that have not yet acted during the fight a flat-footed.
This means that with the Betrayer feat :1. No combat yet : Immediate action draw + attack, surprise round begins if the enemy treats you as a friendly creature.
2. Surprise round : Move or standard action. Both if you are a Bandit. You may attack once, enemy is still flat-footed. Full sneak damage on Underhanded talent.
3. Combat really begins : Roll initiative. If enemy didn't act yet, he is still flat-footed. Enjoy your full attack sneak orgy.1. No combat yet : enemy perceives you as a foe, he is not flat-footed against this betrayer attack.
2. Combat begins, roll initiative. If Surprise Attack talent and you win initiative, enemy is flat-footed.Without the feat :
1. No combat yet : Enemy didn't see you or don't see you as a menace.
2. Surprise round : Move or standard action. Both if you are a Bandit. You may attack once, enemy is still flat-footed. Full sneak damage on Underhanded talent.
3. Combat really begins : Roll initiative. If enemy didn't act yet, he is still flat-footed. Enjoy your full attack sneak orgy.1. No combat yet : enemy perceives you as a foe, he is not flat-footed.
2. Combat begins : Roll initiative. If Surprise Attack talent and you win initiative, enemy is flat-footed.
Thanks, for the breakdown. I just have to figure out how to keep my contribution up once normal combat begins. W/O the 2WP tree i'm afraid I'll have an issue hitting with the scabbard since it's not finesse-friendly (neither is the glove for that matter). So once the initial impressive flair is done, I'm back to my +0 STR mod for the offhand and the minuses for dual wielding. Maybe dropping the scabbard and quick drawing a dagger for the offhand would be workable.
You may want to disarm the target on your first round of fight, not during the betrayer attack or surprise round, except if you don't get the Underhanded talent. So you slap hard the guy with Sap Master, draw the sword as a free action and disarm it before the battle even really begins !
Catch-Off Guard would also allow me to slap them with the scabbard for sneak damage once they were disarmed, right?
Maxximilius |
Thanks, for the breakdown. I just have to figure out how to keep my contribution up once normal combat begins. W/O the 2WP tree i'm afraid I'll have an issue hitting with the scabbard since it's not finesse-friendly (neither is the glove for that matter). So once the initial impressive flair is done, I'm back to my +0 STR mod for the offhand and the minuses for dual wielding. Maybe dropping the scabbard and quick drawing a dagger for the offhand would be workable....
Mmh... I oversaw the scabbard/finesse issue.
Gauntlet and sap are unarmed/light weapons, so finessable by nature !Here is the official revision :
Deceiving Elegance (Ex)At 2nd level, a dandy may use any clothing glove as a sap when held, or a gauntlet when worn. She is considered proficient with this specific accessory when used as a sap, and may conceal a glove even when worn and observed. A dandy may magically enhance her clothing glove as a weapon.
Also, a dandy may treat any kind of sword cane (or sword umbrella) she holds like a finessable weapon with the Trip and Disarm weapon properties. When used this way, the cane is either treated as an appropriately sized light mace when sheathed, or a 19-20x2 piercing weapon when unsheathed, and can't be wielded two-handed. A sword cane used this way isn't considered as a double weapon for the purpose of enhancing it, but any specific enhancement on the cane must meet the normal prerequisites or cease to function (for example, a keen or vorpal sword cane loses these properties when used as a light mace).
When the blade is unsheathed, the scabbard can be used and magically enhanced as an improvised light shield, in which case any magical properties on the scabbard only work when it is used separately.Finally, the dandy may add half her number of sneak attack damage dice to her CMB rolls (minimum 1) for the purposes of the Trip, Disarm, Steal, and Dirty Trick combat maneuvers.
Deceiving elegance can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor.
This ability replaces evasion.
You may not be proficient with real shields, but this is moot as you will probably get a nice masterwork shiny scabbard for your pimp cane around level 2/3 that will have no armor penalty... and thus, no attack penalty.
All available weapons are now finesseable. Get yourself an agile, dueling swordcane for damage and maneuvers. Enhance your scabbard shield to strike hard on the surprise round and then remain relevant in fight. You sure will not shatter the earth on each hit, but the initial shock + some rogue talents + well-placed combat maneuvers will make you the group's dandy mascot !Maxximilius |
Catch-Off Guard would also allow me to slap them with the scabbard for sneak damage once they were disarmed, right?
Ah, duh. Well, that was no oversight from the beginning then, I indeed intended the scabbard to be used this way. Again, it's been half a year since I last read it.
I'll correct this.
EDIT: Done.
God, seeing today how much cool things you can do with this guy both in roleplay and combat possibilities, I forgot how much I want to play one someday ! 8D
This is pretty much the perfect slimy, oppulent BBEG that you will meet at the worst time in the worst place ; or the character that no one will take seriously at first, but everyone will admire as soon as s++# gets real and he takes name while telling puns about money and peasants during the fight.
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
Before you replied I had decided to talk to the GM about treating the sword cane (when sheathed) and the "scabbard" (when unsheathed) as an improvised hanbo. It's a staff less than a yard long and is often carved to look like a walking stick. It's 1d6 same as a combat scabbard or club and it's light so it is automatically finessable.
Maxximilius |
Before you replied I had decided to talk to the GM about treating the sword cane (when sheathed) and the "scabbard" (when unsheathed) as an improvised hanbo. It's a staff less than a yard long and is often carved to look like a walking stick. It's 1d6 same as a combat scabbard or club and it's light so it is automatically finessable.
Indeed. Making it a light shield may have been too much... I figured that most rogues could just wield a buckler in addition to their normal attire without breaking the style, while getting the same effect. So, I could as well make it fit with the crunch from the beginning.
I also looked as the klar and tonfa, but they only provide a bonus when fighting defensively. Not something you'd want on a TWFing 2/3 BAB class, except with Crane Style.The Hanbo should do the trick, and stick more to the intent behind the original design. If the rogue wants more AC, he can try sticking a buckler with the risk to be spotted as more than a simply dandy, take talents, or the TWdefense feat. So, I'll correct this.
Maxximilius |
Little precision : while sheathed, the hanbo/walking stick will not be treated as improvised.
It will be treated as improvised only when it is wielded as the scabbard itself, and thus as a separate weapon on it's own.
In any case, having the improvised property is only useful when the enemy has been disarmed beforehand - which should logically be easier with the unsheathed sword itself, and attacking with a secondary weapon inflicts no penalty if it doesn't provide you with additional attacks this round. So, it's more a fluff and logic thing, not a nerf.
Maxximilius |
Definitely needs the line "weapons sized for a creature your size or smaller" somewhere in there. I know my players would love to use a gargantuan sword cane that's finesse-able.
I really like it!
Unneeded.
For a dandy, a medium sized sword cane is either a light hanbo/walking stick (finesseable by nature), or a one-handed piercing 19-20x2 finesseable weapon.A large sword cane would be a one-handed hanbo - hence becoming non-finesseable ; or a two-handed finesseable weapon... that cannot be wielded in two hands ! And I doubt you'd want the associated -2 penalty to attack with a 2/3 BAB.
But now that you talk about it, a Titan Mauler Dandy with a large sword cane could actually work. :D
"Dear dinosaur, prepare to die !"
EDIT : Also, glad you like it, obviously !
I'm looking forward for the feedback !
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
First session was tonight. Lots of good RP opportunities. Other than almost causing a bar room brawl in a low brow inn because I pulled out a chest of fine spirits when I saw the swill they were serving we only had one combat.
Sword and cane worked well, but I realized Sap Master may be limited in utility since it specifically calls out opponents having to be flat-footed, which means so far I haven't been able to use it. Sap Adept only calls out using non-lethal with a bludgeoning weapon so it still fires with the cane on a sneak attack, but not so for Sap Master.
One question, if a target is tripped is it considered flat-footed or is that strictly for surprise round.
Maxximilius |
First session was tonight. Lots of good RP opportunities. Other than almost causing a bar room brawl in a low brow inn because I pulled out a chest of fine spirits when I saw the swill they were serving we only had one combat.
Sword and cane worked well, but I realized Sap Master may be limited in utility since it specifically calls out opponents having to be flat-footed, which means so far I haven't been able to use it. Sap Adept only calls out using non-lethal with a bludgeoning weapon so it still fires with the cane on a sneak attack, but not so for Sap Master.
One question, if a target is tripped is it considered flat-footed or is that strictly for surprise round.
Awesome, thanks for the feedback !
The enemy is only treated as flat-footed in the following situations :
- He does not see you coming and you start the combat with a surprise round : he is flat-footed as long as he hasn't acted yet in this combat.
- He sees you coming, but you act first and possess the Surprise Attack rogue talent, so he is flat-footed against your first round of attacks.
- On a successful Feint.
- You have the Catch Off guard feat and attack an unarmed character with an improvised weapon, or weapon with the "improvised" property (like your hanbo scabbard).
- Shatter Defenses feat. Works awesomely well with a Thug/Dandy rogue.
- Scout rogue's charge.
- Additional feats or class features I can't think of right now.
On a slightly different topic, if what you wish for is to get a better, constant average damage, you may be interested in Cheapy's replacement to Sneak Attack that we refined in The Secrets of Tactical Archetypes II. It allows to deal additional damage everytime an enemy is afflicted by a detrimental condition.
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
Thanks for the input. I've got a few questions.
The enemy is only treated as flat-footed in the following situations :
- He does not see you coming and you start the combat with a surprise round : he is flat-footed as long as he hasn't acted yet in this combat.
This is the obviously the ideal situation as it requires less from the rogue's build to qualify, very situational though.
- He sees you coming, but you act first and possess the Surprise Attack rogue talent, so he is flat-footed against your first round of attacks.
During the surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to a rogue with this ability, even if they have already acted.
Actually, I don't think I have to act first here if I have Surprise Attacks, right? It's still a surprise round only option though, but at least it's an automatic qualifier for that round.
- On a successful Feint.
If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Feint says the target loses their DEX bonus, but it doesn't state they are considered flat-footed. So I don't believe this would qualify.
- You have the Catch Off guard feat and attack an unarmed character with an improvised weapon, or weapon with the "improvised" property (like your hanbo scabbard).
Yep. While this didn't work for me last night (target has natural attacks), it should be easy enough to disarm with the sword and then catch them off guard with the hanbo/scabbard.
- Shatter Defenses feat. Works awesomely well with a Thug/Dandy rogue.
- Scout rogue's charge.
I looked at a Thug/Scout Dandy after reading this, but realized you would really benefit from Shatter Defenses for the Thug and Spring Attack for the Scout, but you could never have enough feats to do it. Between the two the scout would appeal more to me (thugs ARE rather brutish after all, and brutish = low brow)
Also, if I'm reading the descriptions correctly, a level 8 Thug rogue with Enforcer and Sap Master, would then make the target shaken for 1d6+10d6+20+1 rounds (non-lethal damage) or frightened for 1? While the 1 round of frightened would be nice, I'm not sure it would be worth losing Rake for it, plus Shatter Defenses would work with Enforcer regardless if the rogue was a thug or not.
With Enforcer, slapping someone for 12d6+20 (1d6 for weapon, 10d6 for Sap Master, 1d6 for Merciful enchant and +20 for Sap Adept) would do a ton of non-lethal and shaken them up for the rest of the fight (assuming they were still conscious from the hit).
Which brings this all back full circle about how to get Sap Master to hit more often. Even without Sap Master you would still be hitting for 7d6+10 non-lethal/shaken rounds in the situation above if the target wasn't flat footed.
Too bad shaken opponents can still get AoO, otherwise a scout could move in, knock them senseless and dance around them each round, moving 10 feet and attacking them as if they were flat-footed without risk of AoOs. Looks like Spring attack would still help here.
On a slightly different topic, if what you wish for is to get a better, constant average damage, you may be interested in Cheapy's replacement to Sneak Attack that we refined in The Secrets of Tactical Archetypes II. It allows to deal additional damage everytime an enemy is afflicted by a detrimental condition.
I'm not too concerned about "better, constant average damage" vs "high burst damage", I was just trying to determine if Sap Master is too situational to take up a feat slot.
Maxximilius |
This is the obviously the ideal situation as it requires less from the rogue's build to qualify, very situational though.
Not so situational as long as you deal with humanoids in a story where social interactions are a big part ; which is also where you will find the most dandies.
Actually, I don't think I have to act first here if I have Surprise Attacks, right? It's still a surprise round only option though, but at least it's an automatic qualifier for that round.
Ah, yes, indeed, my bad. See, even I have some issues with the rules, so I'd suggest you write yourself a breakdown on your sheet as to avoid any bookkeeping during the game. Surprise round only, but at least this allows a character to take flat-footed someone who saw him coming, even during the surprise round.
Feint says the target loses their DEX bonus, but it doesn't state they are considered flat-footed. So I don't believe this would qualify.
Damn ! Probably a Pathfinder beta leftover, as in 2008/2009 it used to make you flat-footed, and I remember the confusion it caused at the time.
Yep. While this didn't work for me last night (target has natural attacks), it should be easy enough to disarm with the sword and then catch them off guard with the hanbo/scabbard.
That's probably your best option outside of sneaking on a guy. Beware of natural attacks and Improved Unarmed Strike though ; otherwise you're cool.
Between the two the scout would appeal more to me (thugs ARE rather brutish after all, and brutish = low brow)
Say this to Alex :p
Also, if I'm reading the descriptions correctly, a level 8 Thug rogue with Enforcer and Sap Master, would then make the target shaken for 1d6+10d6+20+1 rounds (non-lethal damage) or frightened for 1? While the 1 round of frightened would be nice, I'm not sure it would be worth losing Rake for it, plus Shatter Defenses would work with Enforcer regardless if the rogue was a thug or not.
I'm not touching this feat with a 10-foot pole, and I suggest you do the same. The only way I could see it as balanced would be if it required an immediate action to activate on a successful sneak attack against an opponent denied it's dexterity bonus or on a critical hit, with a Will saving throw to avoid, and a duration in rounds based on the -base- weapon damage dice (1d6 rounds for a rapier, for instance). And even then, it has a great potential to make people suffer a lot with Shatter Defenses.
I'm not too concerned about "better, constant average damage" vs "high burst damage", I was just trying to determine if Sap Master is too situational to take up a feat slot.
Depends on what you wish for your character. If you intend your character to use the Betrayer feat tree, it definitely is worth it as the feat pretty much allows you to attack twice in a surprise round. But you will have a high burst damage curve with nonlethal damage, and may feel like you are lacking a bit once the battle really begins, even if you have lots of candies with combat maneuvers and synergizing items/talents/feats like Catch Off-Guard and a Dueling weapon (magic property from Paizo's Pathfinder Society Field Guide).
But I believe even TWFing and constant damage can be done as well, you just have class features that tend to point hitting hard during the surprise round and be an agile duelist afterhand, something not all rogues are able to do.Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
I did take TWF, which greatly improved my abilities to hit once the fight was on. I was just detailing out some combat flows and had come up with:
(Note: Flaws were allowed so I have two extra feats to play with)
As a Level 8 Rogue:
1) Move 10' to enter melee with target.
2) Make a full attack with cane and sword against a flat-footed opponent (1st attack only) (Skirmisher)
3) Deal 1d6+10d6+1d6+20 non-lethal damage (Sap Adept/Sap Master)
4) Gain +10 Dodge bonus to AC (Offensive Defense)
5) Successfully intimidate and target is shaken for 1d6+10d6+1d6+20 rounds(Enforcer)
6) Attack target with remaining two sword attacks.
At Level 9 I can continue as above or:
1) Move 10' and make an attack (Spring Attack)
2) Make a single attack with cane against a flat-footed opponent (Skirmisher)
3) Deal 1d6+10d6+1d6+20 non-lethal damage (Sap Adept/Sap Master)
4) Gain +10 Dodge bonus to AC (Offensive Defense)
5) Successfully intimidate and target is shaken for 1d6+10d6+1d6+20 rounds(Enforcer)
6) Move back out of melee combat range (Spring Attack)
With the added +10 Dodge AC I could stay in melee and full attack single targets, or use Spring Attack to bounce from target to target braining them and shaking them up.
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III wrote:Also, if I'm reading the descriptions correctly, a level 8 Thug rogue with Enforcer and Sap Master, would then make the target shaken for 1d6+10d6+20+1 rounds (non-lethal damage) or frightened for 1? While the 1 round of frightened would be nice, I'm not sure it would be worth losing Rake for it, plus Shatter Defenses would work with Enforcer regardless if the rogue was a thug or not.I'm not touching this feat with a 10-foot pole, and I suggest you do the same. The only way I could see it as balanced would be if it required an immediate action to activate on a successful sneak attack against an opponent denied it's dexterity bonus or on a critical hit, with a Will saving throw to avoid, and a duration in rounds based on the -base- weapon damage dice (1d6 rounds for a rapier, for instance). And even then, it has a great potential to make people suffer a lot with Shatter Defenses.
This would of course not only grasp the 10-foot pole with both hands, but it would swing it over your head and have you yelling, "Bring it on!", but it would definitely be fun.
...I'd suggest you write yourself a breakdown on your sheet as to avoid any bookkeeping during the game
As for keeping track of my combat options and such I'm going to actually make a flow chart, similar to the Grappling one.
Maxximilius |
With the added +10 Dodge AC I could stay in melee and full attack single targets, or use Spring Attack to bounce from target to target braining them and shaking them up.
I honestly don't suggest taking the Spring Attack feat. It requires a full-round action to activate, and you can't by RAW take a full-round action to activate a surprise round, so this feat just allows hit and run tactics for low damage each round, negating you the use of any other capacity. And I'm not even accounting for the fact you are going the TWfing route, an intensive feat tree that doesn't synergize with your other, highly intensive feat tree. You'd better just drop one of them, and spend the feats on additional rogue talents or maneuver feats.
As a DM though I would gladly allow the Spring Attack surprise round if you are a reasonable player, especially because the rogue needs any help it can get and even then this would hardly be the most optimized option. You may also want to check this feat.
Note that you don't -need- TWFing to attack with two different weapons. As long as you only use your base attacks given from high BAB, you can alternate with weapons you wield (so at level 8, if hasted, your +6/+1 BAB becomes +7/+7/+2, which you could use to disarm (+7), trip (+7) with your cane sword, then finish with a walking stick strike (+2), not counting eventual attacks of opportunity from your maneuvers).
Beaumont Blakeney Dillicapp III |
Yeah I was questioning the value of three feats to get Spring Attack. As for TWF I wasn't going to take the whole tree, just the root TWF skill so my +hit wouldn't suck so bad.
With TWF: +11/+6 and +11 offhand
W/O TWF: +9/+4 and +5 offhand
Taking the -6 to the offhand attack with the cane portion strikes me as too big a loss not to take TWF. However, if I did go farther and take ITWF it would give me another off-hand at +6.
As a Level 8 Rogue:
1) Move 10' to enter melee with target.
2) Make a full attack with cane and sword against a flat-footed opponent (1st attack only) (Skirmisher)
3) Deal 1d6+10d6+1d6+20 non-lethal damage (Sap Adept/Sap Master)
4) Gain +10 Dodge bonus to AC (Offensive Defense)
5) Successfully intimidate and target is shaken for 1d6+10d6+1d6+20 rounds(Enforcer)
6) Attack target with remaining cane attack (+6) and two sword attacks (+11/+6).
On the following round I could take a 5ft step back, sacrifice a -2AC from the +10 I just got in Step 4 and use Lunge to strike him with all attacks from 10' away.
As a DM though I would gladly allow the Spring Attack surprise round if you are a reasonable player, especially because the rogue needs any help it can get and even then this would hardly be the most optimized option. You may also want to check this feat.
This still suffers from the same lack of synergy with TWF though it is much easier to get to than Spring Attack.