Venture-Captain, Croatia & Slovenia
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Now that we started with season 3 and after (almost) finishing First Steps, I am wondering what would be the best order of scenarios to plan out? So far I heard propositions for using Bloodcove Disguise and City of Strangers but those are worth only 1XP each (which is only 4XP with their sequels included)) and I need the whole scenario path or at least up to a certain point (level 6-7).
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated :)
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Indianapolis Venture-Captain Mark G came up with this guide.
It's from January, but still a good reference.
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Indianapolis Venture-Captain Mark G came up with this guide.
It's from January, but still a good reference.
I'm going to be reworking it to include the First Steps stuff.
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Venture-Captain, Croatia & Slovenia
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Thank you all! :D
Blackros wont be a problem because I happen to work in an archaeological museum myself so I will want to use (and abuse) that ;)
The player pool is still very small where I live so on the first event we had 14 people (2 GMs), second 13 (3 GMs) but between these two events I see about 20something people interrested so far.
Hopefully the start of the academic year will offer more space, people and *fingers crossed* GMs
I will deffinitely look to these lists a lot :D
@ Mark: yay! excellent!
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I would point out to you that if your players like longer modules and story arcs, there are some options available to you that can make sense.
Alternate path with 4 longer story arcs.
PCs are at 1st level: First Steps 1, 2, 3 (3 XP)
PCs are at 2nd level: City of Strangers 1 and 2 in Kaer Maga (2 XP)
PCs (STILL at 2nd Lvl): God's Mouth Heresy in Kaer Maga (get 3 XP only at end of module)
PCs are at 3rd lvl: Feast of Ravenmoor,a little bit south of Kaer Maga (get 3 XP only at end of module)
PCs are 4th lvl: Ship from Korvosa to Absalom via the Throaty Mermaid (1 XP)
PCs are at now at 5th level and home in Absalom.
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Level 1: Intro series 1 - 3
Level 2: Mists of Mwangi, We Be Goblins, Voice in the Void
Level 3: Azlant Ridge 1-2, Frostfur Captives (play up)
level 4: Shades of Ice 1-3
Level 5: Murder on the Throaty Mermaid, Penumbral Accords, Echoes of the Overwatched
Level 6: Heresy of Man 1-3
Level 7: City of Strangers 1-2, Sewer Dragons of Absalom.
I have a home game and I carefully planned out the scenario path that my group is going to take, so I've read the reviews on all of the scenarios and taken into account many things. So I have the following comments.
Rescue at Azlant Ridge at level 3 is fairly hard (and long). Subtier 3-4 is also the subtier most likely to have PC deaths.
Shades of Ice at level 4 will be challenging but achievable. Shades of Ice 3 I'm skipping for my home game, because it's not very good. I'll wrap things up in Ice #2.
Murder on the Throaty Mermaid doesn't play well at subtier 4-5. Players will have too many abilities and spells to break the scenario, and most GMs can't handle it or foresee problems without railroading. I'd recommend subtier 1-2.
The Heresy of Man series are killer scenarios and I'm not sure (without reading them), if they're good for level 6 at subtier 5-6. Maybe level 7? The trouble with starting them at level 6 is that you'll still have some players lagging at level 5.
I'm not sure how City of Strangers plays at level 7, but the encounters are quite weak, I'd play it at level 3 in subtier 3-4 instead.
Sewer Dragons seems to play much better at subtier 3-4 compared to 6-7. I'm running it at level 4 for my group (with some people lagging at level 3).
Anyway, that's my feedback.
I'll post my own scenario path sometime, I'd also like comments from people who have played them. Sometimes a scenario plays much better at certain subtiers and while that information is sometimes available in reviews, it's not always.
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I'm going to be reworking it to include the First Steps stuff.
Updated the post and also added a spreadsheet.
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This was my planned scenario progression, for my home group. Input is welcome.
Scenario selection becomes very difficult at higher levels, because there aren't enough reviews to get a good general consensus for a scenario. Some scenarios don't even have a single review.
Scenario Progression
1st
• Decline of Glory #0-25 (1-7)
• Murder Throaty #1-13 (easy, heavy roleplay) (1-5)
• The Citadel of Flame #1-39 (cheliax) (1-5)
2nd
• Darkest Vengeance, #1-47 (deadly) (1-5)
• The Frostfur Captives #3-01 (up)(1-5)
• We Be Goblins #X (1-2)
3rd
• Mists of Mwangi, #0-5 (up, too hard?)(1-5)
• Delirium’s Tangle, #1-45 (easy, up)(1-5)
• Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible, #1-33 (easy, up)(1-5)
4th
• Before the Dawn 1, #2-1 (1-7)
• Before the Dawn 2, #2-2 (deadly)(1-7)
• Sewer Dragons of Absalom, #3-02 (3-7)
5th
• Shades of Ice 1, #2-15 (1-5) (something else?)
• Shades of Ice 2, #2-17 (1-5) (something else?)
• Shadow’s Last Stand 1, #2-23 (1-7) (maybe city of strangers)
6th
• Shadow’s Last Stand 2, #2-24 (1-7)
• To Scale the Dragon, #0-16 (up to 8-9)(5-9)
• Rebel’s Ransom, #2-3 (hard) (5-9)
7th
• The Jester’s Fraud #1-56 (up to 8-9)(5-9)
• The Dalsine Affair, #2-21 (hard) (1-7)
• The Forgotten Furnace of Koor, #2-18 (7-11)
8th
• Hall of Drunken Heroes, #1-40 (up)(7-11)
• The Ghenett Manor Gauntlet, #3-03 (5-9)
• You Only Die Twice, #2-25 (5-9)
9th
• The Heresy of Man Part 1, #2-06 (hard)(5-9)
• The Heresy of Man Part 2, #2-07 (hard)(5-9)
• The Heresy of Man Part 3, #2-09 (hard)(5-9)
10th
• ?
• ?
• ?
11th
• Sarkorian Prophesy #2-08 (7-11)
• Wrath of the Accursed, #2-20 (7-11)
• The Mantis’ Prey, #2-26 (7-11)
12th
• Eyes of the Ten: Part 1
• Eyes of the Ten: Part 2
• Eyes of the Ten: Part 3
• Eyes of the Ten: Part 4
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This was my planned scenario progression, for my home group. Input is welcome.
I don't think you can play Frostfur 'up' at level 2. Same with Hall at 8th. I also personally find it distasteful to purposely schedule things to 'play up' at level 3. Play 1-7s instead at sub-tier 3-4. Play something else at 7th and move Koor to 10th.
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I don't think you can play Frostfur 'up' at level 2. Same with Hall at 8th. I also personally find it distasteful to purposely schedule things to 'play up' at level 3. Play 1-7s instead at sub-tier 3-4. Play something else at 7th and move Koor to 10th.
Sure you can play Frostfur up at level 2. I have 6 players, that's APL 3, which means they can choose to play down to subtier 1-2 or up to subtier 4-5. There's an example in the Organized Play Guide, it's legal.
All the scenarios at level 3 are tier 1-5, and they're easy ones at that. At level 3, the party will be APL 4. You find that "distasteful" and would rather they play down? lol. Honestly, I have this feeling Assault and Delirium will be far too easy (at level 3), and I might even have to swap out scenarios for something more challenging. Maybe the difference is in our players, I'm not forcing them to play up, they're asking for it (whenever it's legal).
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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This was my planned scenario progression, for my home group. Input is welcome.I don't think you can play Frostfur 'up' at level 2. Same with Hall at 8th. I also personally find it distasteful to purposely schedule things to 'play up' at level 3. Play 1-7s instead at sub-tier 3-4. Play something else at 7th and move Koor to 10th.
Besides, if you play Hall of Drunken Heroes "up," even with a group of six 8th level characters (actually making this an option), you'll kill them all. Run properly, it is easily one of the deadliest modules out there.
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Besides, if you play Hall of Drunken Heroes "up," even with a group of six 8th level characters (actually making this an option), you'll kill them all. Run properly, it is easily one of the deadliest modules out there.
OK, that's good feedback thanks. What level should they be in your opinion? 9, 10, or 11?
Also, why should I run Koor at level 10? I need a reason.
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You find that "distasteful" and would rather they play down? lol.
I find it distasteful that you are planning on gaming the system to 'play up' in many cases. You could/should be making more tier appropriate choices rather than planning to help your players earn 2-3x more gold than they should be while complaining about things being too easy.
If, however, the APL was calculated for six players (thus having added +1) and this pushes a low-level table out of their subtier and into the level between two subtiers, the players should be strongly cautioned about playing up, as even a party of six players may not be able to handle situations and challenges that the higher subtier will present.
AKA - Don't use the +1 APL due to table size as an excuse to play up.
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I find it distasteful that you are planning on gaming the system to 'play up' in many cases. You could/should be making more tier appropriate choices rather than planning to help your players earn 2-3x more gold than they should be while complaining about things being too easy.
Well, it's legal, it happenned all the time at Gen Con, so deal with it. I'm still astonished that you thought it couldn't be done tbh.
PFS scenarios in most cases are far too easy. Please interpret this as meaning "Not fun for players seeking challenge".
Is it bad to play subtier 4-5 at level 3? Give me a break. I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but that's one of the silliest things I've heard, and very unexpected from a VC.
I think the most important factor is that my players have been asking me to increase the challenge. I don't GM to make you happy, I GM to make them happy. Despite increasing the difficulty by giving enemies better tactics (and sometimes better spell selection), it's still way too easy.
The Soulbound Doll casting levitate and 4x Scorching Ray as well as a level 5 fighter with 2x level 2 fighters and a cleric should pose a pretty significant challenge to a level 2 party.
Well, then you'd be wrong. I ran this two times for level 2 parties and they just trashed the doll.
Think about it for a second. Scorching Ray at that level does 4D6 damage, that's an average of 14 damage per round. That's assuming it hits (in both sessions, it missed).
Even if it hit, if you had 2 PCs (out of 6) soak up the damage using Wands of CLW, it would negate all of it's firepower. I guess your players just look up at the floating doll while it fires away without doing anything?
In addition, the doll is susceptible to anything that affects humanoids, which means almost everything. It's f-ed okay?
The 5th level figther and 2nd level cleric were no challenge at all, not for 6 PCs who just surround them. Two, maybe three rounds (because we had to draw weapons)?
I think you grossly underestimate good/smart players (let along min-max players which are another category altogether).
So you don't think PCs should play up (unless it's "unplanned", that makes it okay for some reason)? That's your opinion, noted. We just (completely, 100%) disagree.
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There is at least one other potential disaster in his schedule, but I'd rather see his group push the limits and TPK than help them exploit the system. (It's the Cheliax way).
Well that's not very nice. :)
I doubt it will happen. I'm an excellent judge regarding the relative strength of scenarios. I haven't read all the scenarios obviously, that's why I'm asking for input. Once I read a scenario, it's obvious if it's inappropriate. This is just a tentative schedule.
If they do TPK, at least they had fun doing it, instead of being bored to tears.
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I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but that's one of the silliest things I've heard, and very unexpected from a VC.
I'm sorry you find my opinion and use of the word distasteful so troublesome. Perhaps next time you should omit 'Input is welcome.'
The point is that the table size/APL +1 rule wasn't intended for 2nd level PCs to earn 1300 GP instead of 500 GP. It's an adjustment tool not a planning tool.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Besides, if you play Hall of Drunken Heroes "up," even with a group of six 8th level characters (actually making this an option), you'll kill them all. Run properly, it is easily one of the deadliest modules out there.OK, that's good feedback thanks. What level should they be in your opinion? 9, 10, or 11?
Also, why should I run Koor at level 10? I need a reason.
Erm, I'm going to stay out of the debate, but feel I should reply to your question:
At tier 10-11, the first one leads off combat with a DC 23 Weird ability. I've played once and GM'd twice; this one ability usually results in a 2/3 wipe out. It then proceeds to grapple opponents (+29 CMB) and hit them with 12d6 damage each round. Ultimately, this combat is a "dream", and after they all die as they're supposed to, they are expelled from the dream with half thier hit-points and the exhausted condition, but if you can't hold out for 10 rounds for the NPC who is with you to get some key information, the rest of the scenario is very difficult.
The second combat features an advanced shadow demon (incorporeal, DR/10 cold iron or good; immune to to cold, electricity, and poison; resist acid 10, fire 10 - that adds up to a lot of ability to resist being killed quickly). 2 claws +14, 4d6 damage each, 1 bite +14, 2d8 plus 2d6 damage gives it reasonable melee capabilities, plus it's in a library, so it can move in and out of bookshelves, keeping it from being hit regularly. Also, it gates in a second (admittedly normal), and has a succubus on its side who gates in babau.
The third combat features a Hezrou. Nothing to serious, I suppose (beyond normal demon bad-a$$ery), but considering the prior combat a lot of resources could be tapped. And if the Succubus got away, she shows up to help, coming from behind.
Again, if the GM knows what he's doing, it's a very difficult module.
I've played, but not read, Koor, so I cannot answer that question.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I agree with you, Mark, but ...
1) If Jason's PFS campaign remains a home campaign, then any distortion to PFS as a whole is contained. If it makes them happy, why not? (In particular, the reporting system doesn't track which sub-tier a group plays at, so it's invisible to anybody else, as long as they don't go to a convention with their super-equipped PCs.)
2) Scenarios that are intended to be survivable with four poorly-matched PCs are going to be less of a challenge for six PCs designed to be a continuing party. Jason's going to have to increase the challenge somehow. If an increase in sub-tier wasn't intended as a planning tool, he'll need something else.
3) The additional gold just goes into making the PCs better and better equipped, so they'll get less and less challenge as the campaign goes on. (Jason, perhaps the best choice would be to give the players the play-up option for encounters, but not for rewards.)
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I'm sorry you find my opinion and use of the word distasteful so troublesome. Perhaps next time you should omit 'Input is welcome.'
I think I was looking for input along the lines of what Drogon made. I was looking for input that would increase the enjoyment or experience the players would get. Not "you shouldn't be playing up to subtier 4-5 at level 3", which is total rubbish.
Maybe I should have been more specific and said 'Constructive input welcome'. My bad.
I don't find your opinion troublesome, although I don't like how you express it, I just find it completely inappropriate and contrary to my circumstance and personal experience with PFS. Your points would be a lot more valid if I didn't have veterans of the RPGA (with previous 20th level characters) in my home group. Does that make sense?
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I agree with you, Mark, but ...
1) If Jason's PFS campaign remains a home campaign, then any distortion to PFS as a whole is contained. If it makes them happy, why not? (In particular, the reporting system doesn't track which sub-tier a group plays at, so it's invisible to anybody else, as long as they don't go to a convention with their super-equipped PCs.)
That's pretty much the case, most of them have no desire to play at conventions, even local conventions.
Having said that, I feel like my play experiences are completely different from yours. You say it's a distortion of PFS, yet at Gen Con almost every table I saw played up (or at least had 2-3 PCs playing up). As a matter of fact, whenever it was legal, everyone played up, I've never seen one group play down. And it happened a lot more than in my home game. So is Gen Con bad now?
I see it the same in my home game. If my players want to take the risk of dying or TPK (and it's a serious risk), that's their choice. I'm not a GM that pulls punches. If they want the easy path, they can just collect their XP and gold and call it a day. It's about risk / reward. Maybe sieylianna is right, maybe they will TPK, but at least it was their choice.
2) Scenarios that are intended to be survivable with four poorly-matched PCs are going to be less of a challenge for six PCs designed to be a continuing party. Jason's going to have to increase the challenge somehow. If an increase in sub-tier wasn't intended as a planning tool, he'll need something else.
Yes. I refuse to add mooks or change the stats of the enemies. I have no problem with changing tactics and spell selections. When that's not enough I have to do something. I don't see playing up to subtier 4-5 from level 3 as a bad thing.
3) The additional gold just goes into making the PCs better and better equipped, so they'll get less and less challenge as the campaign goes on. (Jason, perhaps the best choice would be to give the players the play-up option for encounters, but not for rewards.)
As I understand, the challenge level increases substantially at higher levels. I doubt they'll be playing up once they get to level 5 (if so it will be small shift), unless it's a season 0 scenario (which I might eliminate, depends on how good the story is or whether it's been updated to PFS).
At low levels, I don't know why I'd put them at increased risk (of dying and TPK) without also increasing their reward. It really is a risk you know, it sucks to die (and start over) at level 3. The extra gold at low levels won't affect the outcomes of any high level scenario, where the amount of gold they gain will be substantially more.
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I doubt it will happen. I'm an excellent judge regarding the relative strength of scenarios. I haven't read all the scenarios obviously, that's why I'm asking for input. Once I read a scenario, it's obvious if it's inappropriate. This is just a tentative schedule.
The particular module that I have in mind is situational. Things could be fine. Things could be very unpleasant. We had average luck and at one point, my oracle was the only functioning character with about 20 hit points. She ended up provoking repeatedly because the prospect of receiving a full attack was unthinkable. She was missed a couple of times or it would have been all over.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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3) The additional gold just goes into making the PCs better and better equipped, so they'll get less and less challenge as the campaign goes on. (Jason, perhaps the best
As I understand, the challenge level increases substantially at higher levels. I doubt they'll be playing up once they get to level 5 (if so it will be small shift), unless it's a season 0 scenario (which I might eliminate, depends on how good the story is or whether it's been updated to PFS).
I don't think that's quite true. There are a handful of modules in the 5-9 or 7-11 range that have a reputation as dangerous, but it's not generally true. (Dalsine Affair, at Tier 1-7, is probably one of the deadliest scenarios.)
If your campaign is playing up for some of second level and much of third, each character is likely to have an additional 4000 - 6000 gp to buy stuff by the time he or she hits 4th level. So, they'll be able to play in the 3-4 subtier of Tier 3-7 or Tier 1-7 adventures, but between being a larger party, well-coordinated (as organized play goes) and over-equipped, they'll find the 3-4 subtier dull. And they'll be able to play up to the 6-7 subtier, because the APL will be 4 + 1 = 5. And they'll be getting an extra 1500 gp per adventure. So, when they're 5th or 6th level, they'll be even more over-equipped, and still large, and even better-coordinated.
And I observe that you're sending the party into the modules that are supposed to be dangerous at their greatest possible strength. (Actually, you have them encountering the Heresy of Man at 9th level. With the large table, they'll be APL 10.) They'll walk all over it. Send them into Heresy of Man at, say 6th level (playing up), to bring the dangers home.
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And they'll be getting an extra 1500 gp per adventure. So, when they're 5th or 6th level, they'll be even more over-equipped, and still large, and even better-coordinated.
That's a good point, unfortunately the reason they're playing up is not only for additional challenge, but it's also because I wanted to tell those stories and they just happenned to be in the tier 1-5 range.
Also, notice that if I reverse the level 3 and level 4 scenarios, the group is playing in the correct subtier. Either way, the group makes the same amount of gold, although it makes some people happier if they play the correct tier.
In that case, level 3 would provide a good challenge (and I might even kill a PC. Especially ninjas, lol. That's not a good thing btw) and level 4 would be very unsatisfying.
3rd
• Before the Dawn 1, #2-1 (1-7)
• Before the Dawn 2, #2-2 (deadly)(1-7)
• Sewer Dragons of Absalom, #3-02 (3-7)
4th
• Mists of Mwangi, #0-5 (up)(1-5)
• Delirium’s Tangle, #1-45 (easy, up)(1-5)
• Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible, #1-33 (easy, up)(1-5)
(Actually, you have them encountering the Heresy of Man at 9th level. With the large table, they'll be APL 10.) They'll walk all over it. Send them into Heresy of Man at, say 6th level (playing up), to bring the dangers home.
Well, as much as I want to challenge the group, I don't want to pointlessly spill their guts everywhere.
Heresy has a bad reputation for chewing PCs up and spitting them out. I was even thinking they should play down that series. I have no problem with the group playing down, if the story is good. It's all about the story really, that and providing some kind of challenge. I have no personal experience with it, and unfortunately upper level scenarios don't have enough reviews, it's really difficult to get an accurate depiction of a scenario with 3 or less reviews.
So you think Heresy plays better at subtier 5-6 than 8-9?
Thanks.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Well, when they're 6th level, with the size of the group, they'll be playing at 7th level, and can play up...
In all seriousness, having run the Heresy scenarios at cons, I can offer this advice: there are a few very strong advantages your group has.
1) Time. No, seriously. "Heresy I" is tough to complete in a time-sensitive environment. So is "Heresy III"; my table at Origins got about half-way through it. Your team members aren't going to have to take a half hour introducing their characters, and ...
2) ... they can all know how each of them can rely on his or her allies. What do they do when they're faced with common difficulties? They already know. If the party notices at level 4 that the PCs don't have, say, someone good at dealing with swarms or traps, that can be remedied by level 6.
Even without having an oversized table, even without having tons of extra gear, your home game environment offers tremendous advantages over a group of strangers plopping down at a noisy convention, knowing only that their characters are all about the same level. (And, hey, two of those guys have "stunt characters" who are fun to play but just goofy.)
Those guys are going to enjoy themselves through "Heresy of Man", but they are handicapped in ways your players aren't. And those handicaps might just kill them; that's why the series has a reputation for being deadly. Smart people working with a well-balanced team should take that as a warning, but not a harbinger of doom.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Heresy has a bad reputation for chewing PCs up and spitting them out. I was even thinking they should play down that series. I have no problem with the group playing down, if the story is good. It's all about the story really, that and providing some kind of challenge. I have no personal experience with it, and unfortunately upper level scenarios don't have enough reviews, it's really difficult to get an accurate depiction of a scenario with 3 or less reviews.
So you think Heresy plays better at subtier 5-6 than 8-9?
The Heresy of Man series got an overhaul after a rash of early complaints. If I recall the conversations correctly, Josh Frost was attempting to push this series as the "newer, more difficult" PFS. He left Paizo in the midst of these being released/developed, and a few things slipped through the cracks. When it was discovered just how dangerous some of the encounters were, they were powered down and re-released.
If you're getting the current PDF version of these, the series isn't nearly what it was, in terms of the "deadly" factor. Most of those bad reviews don't reflect them as they currently stand. There were a lot of people who were pissed off at being killed by an un-winnable encounter, and they were very vocal. It was those encounters that got retooled.
By the way, this is another example of experienced GMs making the difference. The encounters in this series make excellent use of terrain, and if a GM takes advantage of it, the challenges are significantly more extreme than if the terrain is ignored, which will essentially cede the combat to the PCs.
This has been a fascinating read due to the variety in though process. :)
We played PFS for the first time early last year at a con. When we came home we started up our own regularly scheduled PFS game for local gamers.
When deciding in what order we should run the scenarios I never even thought twice. The answer seemed so obvious that I never even thought to ask the question...
We started with 1, continued on to 2, moved on to 3... continue patern until all scenarios have been played.
Obviously we skip retired modules, and If we come to a point where we need to run something lower tier, we set the adventure aside and play it as soon as we are of the proper level.... Why would anyone not want to experience all the modules in the intended order?
Obviously we skip retired modules, and If we come to a point where we need to run something lower tier, we set the adventure aside and play it as soon as we are of the proper level.... Why would anyone not want to experience all the modules in the intended order?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I found some of the modules to be duds (either in terms of encounters or in terms of plot). Assuming there are plenty of non-dud modules out there, why would I treat my players to a sub-par gaming experience?
Obviously we skip retired modules, and If we come to a point where we need to run something lower tier, we set the adventure aside and play it as soon as we are of the proper level.... Why would anyone not want to experience all the modules in the intended order?I can't speak for anyone else, but I found some of the modules to be duds (either in terms of encounters or in terms of plot). Assuming there are plenty of non-dud modules out there, why would I treat my players to a sub-par gaming experience?
*Shrug* Guess we figure we can't really judge a module till we've played it. The gamers I know have WIDELY varying tastes in modules and one mans trash is another mans treasure. Add in taking multiple stranger's words for it and things get even more muddy as to what to play and what to skip.