Is there any reason a paladin can't be a Hellknight?


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I've read through both entries, and the faction entry. And I see no rules reason a Paladin can't be a hellknight. I even says under paladin code that a paladin can ally itself with a creature of any alignment when it comes to accomplishing a greater cause.

Which is this case would be the Lawful upholding of the world. He could be a paladin of Abadar, or Torag. And even be bidden to maintain law.

None of the Hellknights abilities are evil. And even the class itself is not intrinsically evil. It's a primarily neutral class and faction that bases itself off Hell, but that's just for a Law standpoint. A faction based off Axis wouldn't by essence be good. Just organized and lawful.

Thoughts?


My Paladin, in Council of Thieves, killed a Bone Devil single-handed. The occasion was witnessed by several Hellknights. I came very close to taking the Hellknight PrC.

In answer to your question: No, there is no reason that a Paladin couldn't become a Hellknight. Be aware, though, that a Hellknight never allows moral quandaries to interfere with his absolute application of the law. This may, at times, conflict with your code as a Paladin. Balancing the two may be very, very difficult at times.


They certainly can be, several of the NPCs listed in the Hellknight orders are LG and/or are paladins. Some of the things that happen among the Hellknights I imagine wouldn't sit well with a pally's code, but nothing forbids them. I myself am planning on running a Paladin of the Godclaw/Hellknight for a module my GM is gonna do, should be a hoot. :)


The Crusader wrote:

My Paladin, in Council of Thieves, killed a Bone Devil single-handed. The occasion was witnessed by several Hellknights. I came very close to taking the Hellknight PrC.

In answer to your question: No, there is no reason that a Paladin couldn't become a Hellknight. Be aware, though, that a Hellknight never allows moral quandaries to interfere with his absolute application of the law. This may, at times, conflict with your code as a Paladin. Balancing the two may be very, very difficult at times.

Unless it is completely within your God's will I would think. I allowed Paladins to do "questionable actions" since sometimes the God was not the same alignment. Such as Lawful neutral, or Neutral Good. From My understanding, I always assumed the rules for a Paladin's God was the same as a Cleric, since it never stats what specific type of God had to serve. So technically, his god could not be angry with him if he did exactly what his god would have, or wanted to do.

I know in pathfinder has a few Gods who are not Lawful good who have Paladins. I was never really clear on how it worked though. I don't think a lot of people are from all the posts I've seen :p .


Yes.

If a Paladin has to decide whether to be lawful or to be good he has to choose good.

When a Helknight has to decide whether to be lawful or to be good he has to choose lawful.

Liberty's Edge

Correct.There is nothing against a paladin becoming a Hellknight, but I seem to remember reading that eventually the requirements and regulations of enforcing the Law above all other aspects and seeing how people around them take advantage of the law for their own ends, 'wears down' the idealism and belief in the good nature of people, until such time that the paladin crosses the line from being good to being neutral.
Think Judge Dred - I am the Law

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Plus, the very act of 'taking on' a HELLknight mantle is basically glorifying Hell.

Paladins in Knightly Orders which also include LN Hellknights is one thing.

Paladins who ARE Hellknights is impossible. Conflicting standards, and they cannot work to the glory of Hell.

Paladins in orders with LE Hellknights are violating their code to not associate with Evil. Also impossible.

==Aelryinth


The Crusader wrote:

My Paladin, in Council of Thieves, killed a Bone Devil single-handed. The occasion was witnessed by several Hellknights. I came very close to taking the Hellknight PrC.

In answer to your question: No, there is no reason that a Paladin couldn't become a Hellknight. Be aware, though, that a Hellknight never allows moral quandaries to interfere with his absolute application of the law. This may, at times, conflict with your code as a Paladin. Balancing the two may be very, very difficult at times.

Just frequent atonements and self conditioning. Because a dedicated Paladin can truly uphold the codes of both orders, as long as he feels justified in what he is doing.

I feel.


Aelryinth wrote:

Plus, the very act of 'taking on' a HELLknight mantle is basically glorifying Hell.

Paladins in Knightly Orders which also include LN Hellknights is one thing.

Paladins who ARE Hellknights is impossible. Conflicting standards, and they cannot work to the glory of Hell.

Paladins in orders with LE Hellknights are violating their code to not associate with Evil. Also impossible.

==Aelryinth

Well OP up there stated that there are NPC's shown in text to be LG Paladin/Hellknight. That would be Paizo stating they can be.


Aelryinth wrote:

Plus, the very act of 'taking on' a HELLknight mantle is basically glorifying Hell.

Paladins in Knightly Orders which also include LN Hellknights is one thing.

Paladins who ARE Hellknights is impossible. Conflicting standards, and they cannot work to the glory of Hell.

Paladins in orders with LE Hellknights are violating their code to not associate with Evil. Also impossible.

==Aelryinth

I'm not sure I agree, here. From everything I've read, the Hellknights, from their inception to present, don't really glorify Asmodeus or Hell. Rather, they venerate the absolute lawfulness and order that Hell represents, and seek to emulate it.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Yes.

If a Paladin has to decide whether to be lawful or to be good he has to choose good.

When a Helknight has to decide whether to be lawful or to be good he has to choose lawful.

Oh I never said it wouldn't be a conflicting concept, just a possible one. And from RAW yes it's possible. And would likely be one of the funnest characters. You choose Law over Good and you may have to seek attonement. You choose Good over Law and you may have to answer to your order.

I want to do this.

Grand Lodge

If I was running the game, I'd have to say no....sort of.

Like the others have said: the Hellknights number one rule is that you enforce the law at all times and nothing ever trumps what is written as law. Any good alignment paladin would suffer from that rule.

The only way I could see this working is if the paladin and their god were both a non good alignment. Reason being, any good alignment paladins will (even the LG ones) do everything in their power to right wrongs, even if it may go against local laws at times. I know, I know, I might get flamed for the that comment including LG. But if a LG paladin had the opportunity to save hundreds of lives by bashing down a wall(grand vandalism) so that they could escape a deadly fire, they will.
Hellknights would NEVER do that. That would be committing a crime by busting down that wall.
(non-good doesn't mean that hellknights are inherently bad people.)


Dale Wessel wrote:

If I was running the game, I'd have to say no....sort of.

Like the others have said: the Hellknights number one rule is that you enforce the law at all times and nothing ever trumps what is written as law. Any good alignment paladin would suffer from that rule.

The only way I could see this working is if the paladin and their god were both a non good alignment. Reason being, any good alignment paladins will (even the LG ones) do everything in their power to right wrongs, even if it may go against local laws at times. I know, I know, I might get flamed for the that comment including LG. But if a LG paladin had the opportunity to save hundreds of lives by bashing down a wall(grand vandalism) so that they could escape a deadly fire, they will.
Hellknights would NEVER do that. That would be committing a crime by busting down that wall.
(non-good doesn't mean that hellknights are inherently bad people.)

I'm not sure "vandalizing" a building that was actually in the process of burning to the ground, with hundreds of people inside about to die, would really violate the Hellknight's Code. On the other hand, the Paladin/Hellknight might catch a child who stole bread to feed his starving family. The Law might dictate that the offender lose his hand. Now what does the Paladin/Hellknight do?

Grand Lodge

The Crusader wrote:
On the other hand, the Paladin/Hellknight might catch a child who stole bread to feed his starving family. The Law might dictate that the offender lose his hand. Now what does the Paladin/Hellknight do?

Much better example. And that is why I would not allow any good alignment paladins to be hellknights.

Scarab Sages

It's pretty obvious. The child is a thief who will grow up to lead assassins guilds abd be the bane of all that is right and good. The paladin should arrest the miscreant. Then he should ensure that the family is provided for from his own funds.

Some people have no appreciation for law.


Dale Wessel wrote:
The Crusader wrote:
On the other hand, the Paladin/Hellknight might catch a child who stole bread to feed his starving family. The Law might dictate that the offender lose his hand. Now what does the Paladin/Hellknight do?
Much better example. And that is why I would not allow any good alignment paladins to be hellknights.

I'm not convinced that this is a reason to disallow them, though. Definitely you need to have a clear understanding between GM and Player about how strictly each Code must be observed. But, give your players a chance to find the creative solutions. These issues are not new, to RPG's or Literature.

Maybe the Paladin/Hellknight submits the child for punishment, but then brings him on as his squire or page, ensuring his family is well taken care of for the remainder of their days.

My only point with the example was that it would (and should) be difficult.

*Edit: Bah! Ninja'd by Matthew Trent (sort of).

Liberty's Edge

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Quote:
Some people have no appreciation for law.

If my paladin encounters hellknights dragging slaves back to Cheliax, they're gonna get wailed on until they're dead.

My paladin respects legitimate authority; and tyrannies aren't legitimate.

(All you so-called paladins who can't figure this out should stop masquerading and multiclass into cavalier:order-of-the-lion at next level-up.)

Grand Lodge

The Crusader wrote:


My only point with the example was that it would (and should) be difficult.

I guess Im just a bit more rigid when dealing with these hard to tackle subjects.


I would certainly argue that it's possible, but difficult, for the paladin in question.

I would imagine that paladins would be regarded as something of a 'divine inspiration' by many hellknights (especially the younger, more idealistic ones). No one can deny that the skills of a paladin would be useful. So the Hellknights themselves probably wouldn't complain about a few paladins in their ranks.

Of course, some sense would likely be required. If I were a ranking hellknight officer, I would encourage paladins into the order but be cautious in handing out assignments to them. For example, I would certainly send them out to arrest an evil cult or a band of brigands, but I wouldn't send them out to escort a caravan selling slaves back to Cheliax.

From what I can tell, some orders are better for paladins than others. Order of the Godclaw looks very promising, but Order of the Pyre... probably not.

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The post from the devs indicated that there are paladins in the orders that have Hellknights. It did NOT indicate there are paladin Hellknights (the PrC). It doesn't matter about emulating law...they are emulating the Law of Hell. It's right there in the PrC name. It's in the higher level abilities.

If it was a true Lawful PrC, they'd venerate Abadar and the Eternal City Axiom, and be Axiomknights, not HELLknights.

So, no, no Paladin Hellknights. Yes, Paladin's possible in orders to which non-Evil Hellknights belong, attempting to set them on the proper road.

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Pretty sure JJ has said that there is no problem with Paladins becoming Hellknights. Don't have the source off the top of my head but I know I've read it.

I don't see the conflict either. The emulation of Hell comes from the emulation of the strict adherence to the law, not Hell itself. For instance, I can admire my dire enemy's skill with a blade or supreme magical power without becoming my enemy. In fact, if you read up on the Piazo info about Hellknights, it states that they actually DON'T like Hell at all. Hence all the killing of it's servants to enter the order.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mike Schneider wrote:
Quote:
Some people have no appreciation for law.

If my paladin encounters hellknights dragging slaves back to Cheliax, they're gonna get wailed on until they're dead.

My paladin respects legitimate authority; and tyrannies aren't legitimate.

(All you so-called paladins who can't figure this out should stop masquerading and multiclass into cavalier:order-of-the-lion at next level-up.)

Hitler won power as a result of a legitimate, democratic election.


Slavery would quickly become a "do i be lawful or good" conundrums. The law says that the halfling is an escaped slave, should be hauled back and branded/whiped/flayed/have a foot cut off or whatever. Good says that the halfling has an inherent/god given right to be free.


Aelryinth wrote:

Plus, the very act of 'taking on' a HELLknight mantle is basically glorifying Hell.

Paladins in Knightly Orders which also include LN Hellknights is one thing.

Paladins who ARE Hellknights is impossible. Conflicting standards, and they cannot work to the glory of Hell.

Paladins in orders with LE Hellknights are violating their code to not associate with Evil. Also impossible.

==Aelryinth

This is incorrect. Hell knights do not work for hell. They do not all worship the big A or seek to spread evil. The Hellknights took Ideas from a few places. The Orderly Legions of Hell and those of the Jistka Imperium are strongest influence. They are Not evil orders, they use intimidation and fear along with unbiased Law.

Some hellknight Leaders ARE paladins. Paladins can not be part of some orders but their are many orders of Hell knights. I do not have the book Handy for which Lictors are paladins. Now it is a hard line and I would guess most Paladins fall or leave the order.


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DarkHomer420 wrote:
I myself am planning on running a Paladin of the Godclaw/Hellknight for a module my GM is gonna do, should be a hoot. :)

I'm playing one of these right now and its awwwweeesome. Here's my Godclaw Code of Conduct, which is based around the codes of the various aspects in the Faiths of... books. He also has the Oath against Savagery and is from Lastwall, so some of these may not apply to others.

» I am the Claw of the Gods. I am their talons. I am their tool. I am the hand that can break or bend; build or rend.
» I will learn the weight of my armor. Without my discipline to wear it, it is worthless—my strength is not in my armor, but in my gods. If I lose my armor, I have lost a tool. If I betray my gods, I have died.
» I will have faith in the Order. I will channel its strength through my body. I will shine in its legion, and I will not tarnish its glory through base actions. I am righteous through obedience.
» Corruption in court and church is the greatest corruption of civilization. Without confidence in justice and piety, citizens cannot believe in their countries, and civilization begins to disappear. I will root out corruption wherever I find it, and if a system is fundamentally flawed, I will work to aid citizens by reforming or replacing it.
» When savagery and heresy threaten, I am the first to the wall, and the last to fall.
» I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies of the Order, and contempt for the rest.
» I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
» I will guard the honor of my Order, both in thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
» I will not be taken prisoner by my free will. I will not surrender those under my command.
» The wilds are a plague. Under my will they come to spirituality. If they will not come willingly before the law, where they can protest for justice in the courts, they will come under the power of my sword.
» I will suffer death before dishonor. My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
» I am at all times truthful and forthright, but my allegiance is to my Order. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others.
» Against my Order's enemies I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them, and I will scatter their hordes. Yet even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in away that brings honor to my Order

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Yes.

If a Paladin has to decide whether to be lawful or to be good he has to choose good.

When a Helknight has to decide whether to be lawful or to be good he has to choose lawful.

If faced with this choice: the paladin MUST choose BOTH or face consequences.

The moral quandary facing ALL paladins is, sometimes you are confrontrd with impossible choices. A Hellknight is just going to be placed in this situation more frequently.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Of course if you want to make it more complicated, WHOSE laws does the Hellknight need to respect? The law of the land they are from? The land they are in? Their (if any) God's laws? Their own, personal code?

Now those questions would make for a very fun Paladin/ Hellknight to play ;-)

8edit: Spelling


Gorbacz wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:

[

My paladin respects legitimate authority; and tyrannies aren't legitimate.

Hitler won power as a result of a legitimate, democratic election.

See and there is the rub, a paladin who attacks evil men for no reason other then he dislikes them is not being a paladin. Slavery is legal and for most people ( which might be the paladin as well) it is not looked at as evil, not good but not evil. It is just the way things are done, some nations and peoples are starting to change but most do not in fact spend much time thinking about it.

A man who bets his slaves because he can is wicked to the paladin, one who treats them decent and fairly is not. Paladins work inside the borders of most nations (95% of which use slaves) and they work in the borders of cheilx. That nation is also legitimate. If a slave escapes into another nation that has slaves and has good relations with cheilx then it is lawful to collect that slave and take him back. Maybe not good but not evil either.

It is a fine line but "He has a slave attack him!" is not Lawful and is not a paladin. Now he can try to hide the slave or help him escape but just attacking random folk is is not a good action , much less lawful. Also keep in mind Hellknights do not take kindly to folks bending the rules, they might drag the slave back, but place the master in chains as well if he is abusing his slaves more then the law allows.

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mrofmist wrote:
Is there any reason a paladin can't be a Hellknight?

No.

There is the potential for challenges within the various orders' hierarchies, but there's nothing that forbids paladins from being Hellknights (and challenges like that are part of the appeal of playing a paladin in my opinion). In fact, you'll note the first place I ever mentioned Hellknights was in the paladin section of the Rise of the Runelords player's guide.

If you haven't already, you should see the two articles covering Hellknight orders and Hellknight citadels in Pathfinder #27 and #28 (respectively). Therein you'll not only find mention of Hellknight paladins, but you'll also find notes on the Order of the Pike and the Order of the Scar, both of which might be predisposed to paladin members.

Remember, Hellknights are not about evil, they're about absolute law and model their vision of merciless discipline and order after the greatest example of military order in the multiverse: the legions of Hell. In fact, every Hellkinght must face and defeat a devil in battle to advance - after all, if a solider has faced and bested a denizen of Hell, what horror can the mortal world hold for him?


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Stuff

Wesley just smote this thread with his Smite Chaos! Its super effective!

Contributor

Varthanna wrote:
I'm playing one of these right now and its awwwweeesome. Here's my Godclaw Code of Conduct, which is based around the codes of the various aspects in the Faiths of... books. He also has the Oath against Savagery and is from Lastwall, so some of these may not apply to others.

Thaaaaaat's frickin' aaaaaaaawsome!

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and exactly how does that stand with a Paladin's Code to stand against Evil, when the very name HELLKNIGHT glorifies the power of Hell?

You're basically saying the most disciplined armies of LG aren't a sufficient example to do the job, HELL is the thing to emulate.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Being a member of a Hellknight order is certainly possible, as is being the Head of one, its the Order of the Nail, not the Hellknight Order of the Nail.

But being a Paladin/Hellknight (class levels)? Nopers. Not unless you're suddenly going to call them Lawknights and remove Hell from the equation. Then they're killing devils just to put down things that corrupt the law.

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

and exactly how does that stand with a Paladin's Code to stand against Evil, when the very name HELLKNIGHT glorifies the power of Hell?

You're basically saying the most disciplined armies of LG aren't a sufficient example to do the job, HELL is the thing to emulate.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Being a member of a Hellknight order is certainly possible, as is being the Head of one, its the Order of the Nail, not the Hellknight Order of the Nail.

But being a Paladin/Hellknight (class levels)? Nopers. Not unless you're suddenly going to call them Lawknights and remove Hell from the equation. Then they're killing devils just to put down things that corrupt the law.

==Aelryinth

You're getting stuck on the name and you need to move past that as the Hellknights are much more than just a name. Just like Conan is more than just a Barbarian and 1984 actually has very little to do with that year.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Kieviel wrote:
Pretty sure JJ has said that there is no problem with Paladins becoming Hellknights. Don't have the source off the top of my head but I know I've read it.

He has.

Paladins can be Hellknights.

Pathfinder #27 and #28 have extensive articles about Hellknights, and details on how paladins can be in that organization are included.

The short version: There are many different Hellknight orders. Most are lawful neutral, but some are lawful good and some are lawful evil.

The "classic" Hellknight paladin would be kind of like Judge Dredd—a no-nonsense "I AM THE LAW" protector of said law who focuses more on the opposition of chaos than he does on the opposition of evil.

Anyway... Hellknights don't all exist to glorify hell. In fact, very few of them actually would say "Hell is something I approve of." Their main role is to protect the law of the land—but they're not actually members of the land's government. Think of them as mercenary law-keepers, I guess.


Aelryinth wrote:

and exactly how does that stand with a Paladin's Code to stand against Evil, when the very name HELLKNIGHT glorifies the power of Hell?

You're basically saying the most disciplined armies of LG aren't a sufficient example to do the job, HELL is the thing to emulate.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Being a member of a Hellknight order is certainly possible, as is being the Head of one, its the Order of the Nail, not the Hellknight Order of the Nail.

But being a Paladin/Hellknight (class levels)? Nopers. Not unless you're suddenly going to call them Lawknights and remove Hell from the equation. Then they're killing devils just to put down things that corrupt the law.

==Aelryinth

I really don't understand you. TWO of the devs in this thread are saying that they CAN be Hellknights and you're still saying that the can't?

And really, what difference does it make if you're just calling yourself a Hellknight and being a member of the organization (and doing stuff that hellknights would do) and taking levels in Hellknight (and doing stuff the hellknights would do)?

It's just a name for crying out loud.

Contributor

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Just a bit of Hellknight trivia to throw out there for context:

The Hellknights formed as a response to the White Plague, a series of murders by the cult of Sifkesh that plagued the Chelish city of Westcrown in 4573. Taking the law into his own hands after the death of his family, retried soldier Daidian Ruel renounced his lifelong worship of Aroden and, with a number of companions in arms, hunted down and punished numerous cultists. Ruel's group gained a measure of celebrity and following among the city's populace, to the extent that when Ruel was arrested for his vigilantism his men forcibly freed him from prison. Ruel willingly returned to Westcrown after his abduction from prison and explained his deeds to King Gaspodar (remembered as his "Merciless" speech). Gaspodar was so impressed that he knighted Ruel and tasked him to create a new order of knights dedicated to hunting down all who would confound the efforts of civilized men. Yet, when the bishop of Westcrown came to consecrate the new order, Ruel passionately rejected the church's blessing. Thus, the furious Aroden worshipers came to call the new knightly order "Hellknights."

You can read all about the history of the Hellknights in Pathfinder #28.


Quote:

If faced with this choice: the paladin MUST choose BOTH or face consequences.

The moral quandary facing ALL paladins is, sometimes you are confrontrd with impossible choices. A Hellknight is just going to be placed in this situation more frequently

A paladin can loose class abilities for a single act of evil. They only loose class abilities for chaotic acts if they commit enough of them/one severe enough to actually change their alignment.


Kieviel wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

and exactly how does that stand with a Paladin's Code to stand against Evil, when the very name HELLKNIGHT glorifies the power of Hell?

You're basically saying the most disciplined armies of LG aren't a sufficient example to do the job, HELL is the thing to emulate.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Being a member of a Hellknight order is certainly possible, as is being the Head of one, its the Order of the Nail, not the Hellknight Order of the Nail.

But being a Paladin/Hellknight (class levels)? Nopers. Not unless you're suddenly going to call them Lawknights and remove Hell from the equation. Then they're killing devils just to put down things that corrupt the law.

==Aelryinth

You're getting stuck on the name and you need to move past that as the Hellknights are much more than just a name. Just like Conan is more than just a Barbarian and 1984 actually has very little to do with that year.

Agreed. A cavalier order of the dragon doesn't glorify dragons, it's a name, a representation. Nothing more. A hell knight is someoen who has faced down and defeated in single combat a being that has lived for thousands of years doing nothing but fighting. It's not glorification it's a name signifying that he's one bad mofo and to mess with him si to face a guy who faced down thousands of years of combat experience in the most brutal, strict, and devastating military force in the known planes and won.

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I find the idea of a Paladin, the exemplar of LG, following a code birthed by the example of HELL and calling themselves a "Hellknight" to be utterly antithetical to the idea of a Paladin.

Calling themselves a Lawknight? Sure. Axiomknight? Sure. Judgeknight? Sure. But a Knight of Hell?

Excuse me? Paladin?

There's a lot to a name. If you think that people aren't going to look at the fact a Paladin is a Hellknight and associate that with "huh, looks Like Hell's the place to be", ya need to go back to mass marketing.

So, yeah, I've got real problems with Paladins taking the PrC. Not so much the Orders, you can hand-wave the Orders ("Only fools think we are an organization of Hellknights") as simply orders of KNIGHTS.

Judge Dredd is about the law. Hellknights, not quite the same thing. If you wanted true LN, should've left LE out of the center of the picture.

===Aelryinth

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Aelryinth wrote:


You're basically saying the most disciplined armies of LG aren't a sufficient example to do the job, HELL is the thing to emulate.

But being a Paladin/Hellknight (class levels)? Nopers. Not unless you're suddenly going to call them Lawknights and remove Hell from the equation. Then they're killing devils just to put down things that corrupt the law.

It’s all about context. See my post above.

If you don’t want paladin members of the Hellknights in your game, but all means exclude them. That is not the stance we’ve taken in our published works, but to each his own.

Personally, I would expect a deity granting paladinship to award her champions power based on the acts of that individual, not based on what membership cards he carries in his wallet.


Quote:
I find the idea of a Paladin, the exemplar of LG, following a code birthed by the example of HELL and calling themselves a "Hellknight" to be utterly antithetical to the idea of a Paladin.

They're not based on hell, they're based on rejecting the church. Since paladins don't have to have a patron deity, why is this a problem?

There's a topic about how people changed Golarion. Feel free to express your thoughts/changes there. But as it is, in the 'true' Golarion, Paladins can be Hellknights.


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

Just a bit of Hellknight trivia to throw out there for context:

The Hellknights formed as a response to the White Plague, a series of murders by the cult of Sifkesh that plagued the Chelish city of Westcrown in 4573. Taking the law into his own hands after the death of his family, retried soldier Daidian Ruel renounced his lifelong worship of Aroden and, with a number of companions in arms, hunted down and punished numerous cultists. Ruel's group gained a measure of celebrity and following among the city's populace, to the extent that when Ruel was arrested for his vigilantism his men forcibly freed him from prison. Ruel willingly returned to Westcrown after his abduction from prison and explained his deeds to King Gaspodar (remembered as his "Merciless" speech). Gaspodar was so impressed that he knighted Ruel and tasked him to create a new order of knights dedicated to hunting down all who would confound the efforts of civilized men. Yet, when the bishop of Westcrown came to consecrate the new order, Ruel passionately rejected the church's blessing. Thus, the furious Aroden worshipers came to call the new knightly order "Hellknights."

You can read all about the history of the Hellknights in Pathfinder #28.

History is fun!


Also as I pointed out up thread, the Hellknights structure and titles all came from the long dead Jistka Imperium. Not the legions of hell.

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The cavaliers of the Order of the nail don't venerate nails, so cavaliers not venerating Dragons is not the point. It's what the point represents. Cavaliers of the dragon are in pursuit of Wealth, Power, and Glory, Get out of my way you peasant you. That's what the Dragon represents.

The history of the Order is only important if the average man might know the history. Everyone else just hears "Hellknight" and that does NOT convey a LN image.

Hellknights by their name broadcast an ideal...knights in service to Hell, Knights of Hell, NOT Knights slaying Hell, which is a completely different topic, and would result in them being called Hellslayers instead of Hellknights...

Does not the change in NAME alone convey a completely different image?

Knights of the Gate can summon Devils.
Knights of the God Claw include Asmodeus as one of the powers whose philosophy they venerate.
Knights of the Tracker can summon a Hell Hound.
Knights of the Wrack can cause pain at will.

Their high level armor is called Infernal Armor, not Axiomatic armor.
They gain a bonus dealing with Non-Good Lawful outsiders. Care to explain why this doesn't include LG, unless LG outsiders have a reason for it?
They can grant a weapon the Unholy Quality.

All of the above falls under the association rules for paladins.
They are affiliating themselves with a name and a tag that is associated with Lawful Evil.
Hellknights employ powers that are definitely evil in nature.
Associating with people that further the cause of evil is not allowed by a paladin code. Being one of those people means you are not a paladin!
No Cha bonus with LG means that LG outsiders do NOT share the view that Hellknights are nice people and we should be chums.

I literally cannot see a justification for a Paladin5/Hellknight X. I can see an Order of Knights with NO Hellknights, who dress the same, but are LN/LG only.

But Asmodeus is chortling away in Hell with a nice fuzzy feeling having Paladins calling themselves Hellknights, and showing all the dupes that Hell is the way to get things done.

meh.

The official stance can be what ya like, but I still see absolutely no justification for the two.

And it's even funnier when you look at the origin of the order and its basically about taking the law into your own hands, i.e. vigilantism, which is a Chaotic Act.

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

I find the idea of a Paladin, the exemplar of LG, following a code birthed by the example of HELL and calling themselves a "Hellknight" to be utterly antithetical to the idea of a Paladin.

Calling themselves a Lawknight? Sure. Axiomknight? Sure. Judgeknight? Sure. But a Knight of Hell?

Excuse me? Paladin?

There's a lot to a name. If you think that people aren't going to look at the fact a Paladin is a Hellknight and associate that with "huh, looks Like Hell's the place to be", ya need to go back to mass marketing.

So, yeah, I've got real problems with Paladins taking the PrC. Not so much the Orders, you can hand-wave the Orders ("Only fools think we are an organization of Hellknights") as simply orders of KNIGHTS.

Judge Dredd is about the law. Hellknights, not quite the same thing. If you wanted true LN, should've left LE out of the center of the picture.

===Aelryinth

Why? Lawful Evil can enforce laws just as well as a Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral character. LE probably won't go out of it's way to enforce justice per say but law? Hell yeah ;-)


Aelrynth wrote:

The history of the Order is only important if the average man might know the history.

Everyone else just hears "Hellknight" and that does NOT convey a LN image.

This seems to be your hang-up. YOU imagine that everbody can`t help but think `knights of hell` when they hear the name.

Instead of imagining things that would make what Paizo says is true not be true, I suggest imagining ways it COULD be true.

The story of Daidian Ruel seems EXACTLY the type of story `the common man` would tend to know.
ESPECIALLY when it pretty much fore-shadows the death/disappearance of Aroden.

When the lawful order isn`t up to the task, having to take things into your own hands is something MOST Paladins probably engage in at one point or another ANYWAYS (apart from Hellknight Paladins). Maybe that`s somewhat Chaotic, although if the purported law of the land isn`t up to the task, calling upon a higher law seems accepted Paladin behavior (again). Regardless, there`s a reason Paladin`s don`t lose their powers from Chaotic behavior.

I`m sure you know how persuasive you were by citing the most Evil orders, as opposed to the ones known to have Paladins amongst them and cited up-thread as the most likely Orders of Paladins Hellknights. I mean, because there is a Church of Asmodeus should Paladins never be members of Churches?

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Why? Because Paladins aren't going to look to Hell as a model for doing ANYTHING?

Heavens, no. We'll venerate the King Of Hell. He's a nice chap, bit of a shame about the tyranny and damning souls and all, but he sure can do a nice turn on that legal language stuff now, can't he? Let's go add Unholy to our Holy Swords and bring up a Hell Hound so we can track down those escaped serfs and kill some NG freedom fighters trying to help them escape! We aren't doing Hell's work at all, running around in our Infernal Armor with a Bearded Devil along to give us advice!

And if we decide to not stoop to such things and the guy next to us does it for us, well, that's perfectly fine, we'll ignore all those pesky rules about associating with people working Evil stuff and be about enforcing the Law!

Yessir. (and for your future reference, it's 'per se'. Not a slam!)

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

The cavaliers of the Order of the nail don't venerate nails, so cavaliers not venerating Dragons is not the point. It's what the point represents. Cavaliers of the dragon are in pursuit of Wealth, Power, and Glory, Get out of my way you peasant you. That's what the Dragon represents.

In the same way Hellknights represent Law, discipline, and power?


James Jacobs wrote:
Kieviel wrote:
Pretty sure JJ has said that there is no problem with Paladins becoming Hellknights. Don't have the source off the top of my head but I know I've read it.

He has.

Paladins can be Hellknights.

Pathfinder #27 and #28 have extensive articles about Hellknights, and details on how paladins can be in that organization are included.

The short version: There are many different Hellknight orders. Most are lawful neutral, but some are lawful good and some are lawful evil.

The "classic" Hellknight paladin would be kind of like Judge Dredd—a no-nonsense "I AM THE LAW" protector of said law who focuses more on the opposition of chaos than he does on the opposition of evil.

Anyway... Hellknights don't all exist to glorify hell. In fact, very few of them actually would say "Hell is something I approve of." Their main role is to protect the law of the land—but they're not actually members of the land's government. Think of them as mercenary law-keepers, I guess.

Thank you very much, you are my hero man. Though I swear you spend more time on these forums then off them :) Not that that's a bad thing.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Quandary wrote:
Aelrynth wrote:
The history of the Order is only important if the average man might know the history. Everyone else just hears "Hellknight" and that does NOT convey a LN image.

The story of Daidian Ruel seems EXACTLY the type of story `the common man` would tend to know. ESPECIALLY when it pretty much fore-shadows the death/disappearance of Aroden.

This seems to be your hang-up. You imagine that everbody can`t help but think `knights of hell` when they hear the name.
Since there are high level Paladins who are also Hell Knights, apparently there is no Cosmic Alignment contradiction happening.
Instead of imagining why what Paizo says is true couldn`t possibly be, I suggest imagining ways it COULD be true.

it's a handwave.

They're basically saying 'it works because we say it works', instead of looking at the impossibility of it working.

Let me rephrase what you are saying. YOU imagine that NOBODY hears "Knights of Hell" when they hear the name. A paladin isn't worried about the fraction that might know the history. He's worried about the majority that do not, and would discount the noble origins based on all the Evil crap the Hellknights have been getting into. It's obviously fallen, they USE the name, instead of having it laid upon them and growing out of it.

mechanically and by the paladin code, the association rules alone render this impossible.

But, handwave. Meh.

==Aelryinth

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