Has anyone improved Kingmaker kingdom building?


Kingmaker


My Kingmaker group is not enjoying the kingdom building very much. Has anyone developed better rules for this? We'd gladly pay a few dollars for a play-tested PDF alternative that is more fun.

Without providing spoilers, the basic problem is that:

(a) Realistic growth starting with a castle and how a moderately dense city develops around it produces linear growth
(b) Meta-gaming shows that an endless spread of city districts, each nearly empty except for a magic item shop and one or two other buildings, produces exponential growth.

The players in my group do not mind a little min-maxing to make our characters exceptional people so long as it fits a somewhat-realistic character concept. But the provided kingdom building rules encourage completely tossing out any semblance of realism about what a "kingdom" looks like.

We do not want to be CEOs of a corporation of chain stores selling magic items. We want to rule a kingdom!

We fear that if we make a kingdom that grows linearly (almost never using the selling of magic items for build points) it will be far too weak for what the campaign demands in the future. We do not want to make extra work for our GM by avoiding what is expected of us.

Any ideas?


I'd start with a simple rule that you have to fill in ALL squares in a city district before you can make a new city district. I never considered anything else as a player and I wouldn't allow anything else as a GM.

Besides while you could theoretically do that to get tons of BPs, there is still an absolute cap on how many hex, buildings, etc. that you can get per month. What's the point of getting tons of BPs if you don't have anything to use tons of BPs on.


Rename production of magic items to trade routes/caravans, taxes, loans and other sources of income you prefer. Don't let them know what types of items you roll up since they "don't exist," and perhaps instead of rolling use a percentage to determine whether they get BP or not (if the item would be worth more or less than 4k gp).

As the Admiral said don't allow new districts within a city to have effect (in terms of selling of items...collecting taxes) before filling the existing one(s) completely with buildings.

Done.


An idea I just had thanks to your thread is for my campaign using the Kingmaker Kingdom Building but has Rifts as the base setting might apply here. Since there aren't a lot of magic items in Rifts but plenty of things like factories that are similar I'm simply going to have them produce a set number of BPs each month.

I thought a ratio of minor = 1/4, medium = 1/2 and major = 1 would be good. Then just a) limit the number of examples of each type of buidling they can build per district/city and b) possible add a few BPs worth of production to other building types.

And maybe have some of those buildings that add to the gold value of the city give a small multiplier onto the BPs produced by that district.


davidvs wrote:
We fear that if we make a kingdom that grows linearly (almost never using the selling of magic items for build points) it will be far too weak for what the campaign demands in the future. We do not want to make extra work for our GM by avoiding what is expected of us.

So this fear is not justified?

Later in the campaign what supposed to be a medium-sized threat for a supposedly large kingdom will not totally levels our actually small kingdom?

(No spoilers please.)

Part of our concern is that two of the melee PCs are half-orcs. They become older quickly: middle age at 30 years, old at 45 years. So the easy GM solution to unoptimized kingdom building (more years of nothing exciting happening in between books for extra kingdom growth time) would be quite damaging to these PCs.


IMO you shouldn't forcefully unoptimized it, but rather find other flavor reasons to explain the expansion.

One can also cut the population down to as low as 50-100 per hex/block so it won't be a huge population boom.

If you purposefully under-develop, then later parts may need to be adjusted too.


About the "simple rule that you have to fill in ALL squares in a city district before you can make a new city district", is that a new city district in the same city only, or does that mean you have to fill out the district before you can found a new city elsewhere? I agree, a bunch of cities/districts with only a magic item shop is cheesey and should be discouraged (with a Ban Hammer if needed). But what if they want to found new cities around discovered ruins or for new allies, etc...


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I created a modified ruleset for kingdom building. I've eliminated the magic item economy (i.e. no buildings produce magic items, and there is no longer a process of generating and selling magic items to generate BPs for the kingdom).

Note that I haven't started my campaign quite yet, so these revised rules are untested.

Special Rules:

Spoiler:

* No more than one building of a type can be placed in the same district, unless that building notes "mult/district".
* A district should be largely filled before starting a new district. (I haven't assigned a percentage rule here yet. If there is a good reason something should be a separate district, I'll probably allow it. If there is a wide band of empty space in an existing district next to the new district border, I probably will NOT.)
* Economy grows faster than in the original rules (so do Stability and Loyalty, but not as fast as Economy). Rolls vs. the Control DC may become meaningless - but my understanding is that this was often the case for groups using the original rules.
* I added a new kingdom statistic, “Prestige.” This is offered only by a few building types, and the players will NEVER roll their Prestige vs. the kingdom control DC. Instead, the accumulation of kingdom prestige is intended to be a measure of how impressive the PC’s cities/kingdom might appear to their neighbors. (I expect to have certain events grant Prestige bonuses, and to create rules on the fly for how this is used in play.)

Interpreting the Statistics:
Spoiler:

* The buildings are listed within their discount groups. Buildings are indented below the building that offers them a discount. For example, in the Arena Group, an Arena in the city halves the cost of a Garrison or Theater; in turn, a Theater in the city halves the cost of a Brothel, Park, or Tavern.
* Most buildings are discounted by one other building. Some are not discounted (there are no discounts for Residential Group buildings nor for the topmost building in each group). Note that within the Parliament Group, the Noble Villa cost is halved by having either a Castle or Palace - obviously, these discounts don't stack.

The format is:
Building Name: cost in BP (blocks if <> 1); +# gp Base Value; Economy; Stability; Loyalty; Prestige; Unrest; Defense Modifier; limitations and army implications and special rules; prerequisites (e.g. 1H)
1H = must be adjacent to 1 House
2H = must be adjacent to 2 Houses
0H = can’t be adjacent to a House


Commentary:
Spoiler:

* I've substantially modified stats for many buildings.
* I have a formula for pricing new buildings, in case the players come up with ideas for additional building types.
* There are buildings with identical stats - this is intentional.
* All three kingdom stats are potentially easier to increase, but especially Economy. My assumption based on feedback from people here on the Paizo boards is that most kingdoms only fail their rolls on a 1 after a certain point, anyway.
* The Slave Pen (under Residential Group) is not really intended to see play in the Kingmaker campaign - a kingdom that allows slavery is far too likely to be wiped out by its neighbors in the River Kingdoms.

Residential Group (no discounts)
Spoiler:

House: 3 BP; Unrest -1; mult/district
Tenement: 1 BP; Unrest +2; mult/district; can replace w/House for 2 BP
Workhouse: 4 BP; Sta +1; Unrest +2; mult/district
Slave Pen: 20 BP (1x2); Econ +3; Unrest +4; 0H; mult/district; All buildings cost 20% less round down (stacks)

Foreign Trade Group
Spoiler:

2 Roads to foreign lands
==> Bazaar: 24 BP; +1000gp; Econ +5; Sta +1; 1H
==> Brewery: 6 BP; Loy +1; Sta +1
==> Herbalist: 10 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Pawn Shop: 4 BP; +100gp; Econ +1; Unrest +1; 1H

Arena Group
Spoiler:

Arena: 40 BP (2x2); Econ +4; Sta +4; Prestige +4; max 1/city; Grants any untested reserve army in city for full month a free Tactic; Stacks w/War College; halves cons. for Festival edicts
==> Garrison: 28 BP (1x2); Loy +2; Sta +4; Unrest -2; DefMod +2; Recruit ANY size army; Maintain Huge army
==> City Wall: 10 BP (0 blocks); Unrest -2; DefMod +4
==> Granary: 10 BP; Loy +1; Sta +1; cumul. +1 to Stability vs. food shortage/farm loss
==> Jail: 14 BP; Loy +2; Sta +2; Unrest -2; adj. Precinct
==> Theater: 24 BP (1x2); Econ +4; Sta +4; Unrest +1
==> Brothel: 6 BP; Econ +1; Loy +2; Unrest +1; 1H
==> Park: 4 BP; Loy +1; Unrest -1
==> Tavern: 10 BP; +500gp; Econ +1; Loy +1; 1H

Cathedral Group
Spoiler:

Cathedral: 58 BP (2x2); Econ +6; Loy +6; Prestige +5; Unrest -4; max 1/city; halves cons. for Promotion edicts
==> Temple: 32 BP (1x2); Econ +2; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +2; Unrest -2
==> Graveyard: 4 BP; Loy +1
==> Monastery: 20 BP (1x2); Econ +2; Loy +2; Prestige +2; adj. Shrine or Temple; Recruit Medium divine army
==> Chapter House: 6 BP; Loy +1; Sta +1
==> Hospice: 18 BP; Econ +1; Loy +2; Sta +2; Unrest -1; Recruit and Maintain a Small divine army
==> Monument: 10 BP; Loy +3; Prestige +1; Unrest -1
==> Shrine: 8 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Unrest -1

Exchange Group
Spoiler:

Exchange: 60 BP (1x2); +2500gp; Econ +8; Sta +2; Prestige +5; adj. 2 warehouse; max 1/city
==> Foundry: 30 BP (1x2); +1500gp; Econ +4; Sta +2; Prestige +3; prereq iron resource in kingdom; adj. water border or Water Tower
==> Armory: 8 BP; Unrest -2; DefMod +2; adj. Barracks, Castle, Garrison, or Keep; One army -1 BP maint. cost
==> Smith: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Water Tower: 8 BP; Loy +2; Unrest -1
==> Bathhouse: 4 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Unrest +1; 1H
==> Glassworks: 32 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +6; Prestige +3; adj. water border or Water Tower
==> Greenhouses: 14 BP (1x2); Econ +1; Loy +1; Sta +1; adj. Greenhouse, Water Tower, or water border; mult/district; cumul. +2 to Stability vs. food shortage/farm loss
==> Mill: 12* BP; +500gp; Econ +2; Sta +1; 1H *if not in river hex, req. +1 block and +4 BP for Mill Pond
==> Baker: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Stockyard: 20 BP (1x2); +500gp; Econ +3; Sta +2; Unrest +1; 0H
==> Butcher: 6 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; 1H
==> Kitchen: 8 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Unrest -1; 1H
==> Restaurant: 6 BP; +200gp; Econ +1; 1H
==> Tannery: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 0H
==> Weaver: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H

Sawmill Group
Spoiler:

Sawmill: 32 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +2; Prestige +1; 0H; adj. water border; All buildings in city -1 BP cost
==> Carpenter: 6 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H

Parliament Group
Spoiler:

Parliament: 70 BP (2x2); Econ +3; Loy +6; Sta +6; Prestige +8; max 1/kingdom
==> Castle: 60 BP (2x2); Econ +2; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +5; Unrest -4; DefMod +8; max 1/city; Maintain Large army
==> Keep: 26 BP; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +1; Unrest -2; DefMod +4; Maintain Medium army
==> Town Hall: 16 BP (1x2); Econ +1; Loy +1; Sta +1; Unrest -2
==> Barracks: 6 BP; Unrest -1; DefMod +2; Recruit and Maintain Medium army
==> Dump: 4 BP; Loy +1; Sta +1; 0H
==> Ministry: 14 BP (1x2); Sta +3; mult/district; circumstance bonus for events related to its jurisdiction
==> Watchtower: 12 BP; Sta +2; Unrest -1; DefMod +2; Maintain Small army
==> Embassy: 20 BP (1x2); Econ +2; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +1; adj. to Town Hall, Castle, Parliament, or Embassy; must be in Capital City; max one/friendly foreign power; mult/district
==> Mint: 100 BP (1x2); +5000gp; Econ +10; Loy +10; Sta +10; Prestige +10; Unrest +5; adj. Castle or Garrison or both Precinct and Watchtower; max 1/kingdom
==> Palace: 48 BP (2x2); Econ +2; Loy +4; Sta +4; Prestige +5
==> Menagerie: 30 BP; Econ +2; Loy +2; Sta +2; Prestige +5; Unrest -1; adj. Mansion or Palace
==> Castle OR Palace
==> Noble Villa: 24 BP (1x2); +500gp; Econ +2; Loy +1; Sta +1; Prestige +2; mult/district
==> Exotic Craftsman: 10 BP; Econ +2; Sta +1; 1H
==> Luxury Store: 28 BP; +2000gp; Econ +6; Prestige +1; 1H
==> Mansion: 8 BP; Econ +1; Sta +1; mult/district

University Group
Spoiler:

University: 90 BP (2x2); +2000gp; Econ +16; Loy +4; Prestige +8; max 1/city
==> Academy: 52 BP (1x2); Econ +8; Loy +2; Prestige +5
==> Courthouse: 20 BP (1x2); Loy +2; Sta +3; Unrest -1
==> Precinct: 8 BP; Sta +2; Unrest -1; 1H
==> Prison: 30 BP (1x2); Loy +3; Sta +6; Unrest -2
==> Town Square: 8 BP (1x2); Loy +2; Unrest -1; adj. Town Hall; may have 2 adj. in same district (2x2)
==> Mage Guild: 46 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +8; Loy +2; Prestige +4; max 1/city; Recruit Medium arcane army
==> Alchemist: 12 BP; +1000gp; Econ +2; 1H
==> Caster's Tower: 30 BP; Econ +8; Loy +1; Prestige +1
==> Scriptorium: 10 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Library: 6 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1
==> School: 8 BP; Loy +2; Unrest -2; 1H
==> Magic Shop: 68 BP; +2000gp; Econ +20; Prestige +2; 2H
==> Museum: 26 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +4; Loy +4; adj. Academy, University or Museum; mult/district
==> War College: 60 BP (2x2); Econ +1; Loy +5; Sta +5; Prestige +8; prereq 100+ hexes; max 1/kingdom; All armies at recruitment gain one tactic; Stacks with Arena

Waterfront Group
Spoiler:

Waterfront: 90 BP (2x2); +4000gp; Econ +24; Prestige +8; adj. water border; max 1/city; ½ Loyalty cost for Tax edicts
==> Guildhall: 34 BP (1x2); +1000gp; Econ +6; Loy +2; Prestige +1; 1H
==> Piers: 16 BP; +500gp; Econ +3; Sta +1; adj. water border; mult/district
==> Warehouse: 8 BP (1x2); +100gp; Econ +2; mult/district
==> Stable: 10 BP; +500gp; Econ +1; Loy +1; 1H
==> Tradesman: 10 BP; +500gp; Econ +1; Sta +1; 1H
==> Market: 48 BP (1x2); +2000gp; Econ +10; Sta +2; Prestige +3; 2H
==> Black Market: 50 BP; +2000gp; Econ +12; Sta +1; Prestige +2; Unrest +1; 2H; mult/city may spur Gang War
==> Gambling Parlor: 4 BP; Econ +1; Loy +1; Unrest +1; 1H
==> Clothier: 6 BP; +200gp; Econ +1; 1H
==> Inn: 14 BP; +500gp; Econ +2; Loy +1; 1H
==> Shop: 8 BP; +250gp; Econ +2; 1H
==> Shipyard: 64 BP (2x2); +3000gp; Econ +6; Loy +2; Sta +4; Prestige +5; adj. water border; max 1/city; Can build ships for moving armies, but only on connected waterways.


Valandil Ancalime wrote:
About the "simple rule that you have to fill in ALL squares in a city district before you can make a new city district", is that a new city district in the same city only, or does that mean you have to fill out the district before you can found a new city elsewhere? I agree, a bunch of cities/districts with only a magic item shop is cheesey and should be discouraged (with a Ban Hammer if needed). But what if they want to found new cities around discovered ruins or for new allies, etc...

I'd certainly make it within the same city. As you pointed out the other way to run it would be way too limiting.

There is also the RP element to consider here. The rules as written can only cover so many situations, RP brings in the rest of the fun. I might be inclined to let them try and once they have 30 or so magic shops going my response to a new one would go:

"Well there aren't any more spell casters willing to settle here. Also the ones that are here are complaining that they feel overworked, under appreciated and do NOT like the way you take most of the profit they would get for selling the few items they struggled so hard to make. So the mages are forming a guild and refusing to give you wany money. To top it off there is a rebellion brewing among the peasants since they have to mail away for things like clothes, farming equipment, horse shoes. Of course they'd be more of a threat if it wasn't for the disease running rampant, after all it's not like there are any shrines, herbalists or other healers to keep it in check."

Logiacl consequences for their actions can be SO much more satisfying than a ban hammer.


Cintra Bristol wrote:

I created a modified ruleset for kingdom building. I've eliminated the magic item economy (i.e. no buildings produce magic items, and there is no longer a process of generating and selling magic items to generate BPs for the kingdom).

Note that I haven't started my campaign quite yet, so these revised rules are untested.

I like a lot of these and will probably steal some. Definately much better organized than the paizo ones. Alphabetical is frequently not the best method of organization.

However slave pens need a MAJOR edit. First off is that 20% discount for the district or the entire city? Regardless of which it is you need to either make it non-stackable or drop it down. I'd suggest both actually. As it is starting with my second city I'd use 2.5 of my squares to build 5 slave pens. That leaves me with 6.5 squares to build FREEE buildings. That's not counting of course the +15 economy. And by that time I can build houses and other buildings in my first city to cut that unrest to 0. Let's see the first one is 20, second is 16, third is 12, fourth is 8 and last is 4, which comes to a grand total of 60BPs....I can get back 70 free BPs by dropping a Parliament there.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The Admiral Jose Monkamuck wrote:
I like a lot of these and will probably steal some. Definately much better organized than the paizo ones. Alphabetical is frequently not the best method of organization.

Thanks!

The Admiral Jose Monkamuck wrote:
However slave pens need a MAJOR edit. First off is that 20% discount for the district or the entire city? Regardless of which it is you need to either make it non-stackable or drop it down. I'd suggest both actually. As it is starting with my second city I'd use 2.5 of my squares to build 5 slave pens. That leaves me with 6.5 squares to build FREEE buildings. That's not counting of course the +15 economy. And by that time I can build houses and other buildings in my first city to cut that unrest to 0. Let's see the first one is 20, second is 16, third is 12, fourth is 8 and last is 4, which comes to a grand total of 60BPs....I can get back 70 free BPs by dropping a Parliament there.

Oops - I abbreviated everything to post it, and I needed to be clearer there. Slave Pens get more text in the long version of my rules.

The discount doesn't stack with other Slave Pens, it stacks with discounts from other buildings. So if you want to build an Herbalist (10BP) and you have two trade roads to foreign lands (which halves cost of Herbalist) AND Slave Pens, the final cost of Slave Pens in the same city is (10 BP halved = 5, then -20% =) 4BP.

The discount applies to the whole city, but I have a note that in order to get the discount from Slave Pens, you have to have at least one Slave Pens in your city per District in that city. Build too many districts without expanding the slave pens area, and no more discount.

Then, I have a note that utilizing Slave Pens adds a number of new Kingdom Events to the list, all bad - Slave Revolt, Andoran Raid, etc., and also increases likelihood/DCs of some exisitng events such as Plague. Some penalties would be cumulative; build a lot of slave pens to keep up with your number of districts, and these events could become truly significant.

I should also note - in the Kingmaker campaign, I consider Slave Pens to be a trap. Since this campaign is set in the northern reaches of the River Kingdoms, where slavery is not acceptable, if the PCs were to institute slavery, they'd probably get wiped out by an alliance of their southern neighbors. I included it because I thought of using these rules in another region entirely - but for Kingmaker, if I thought my players would react to it with anything other than a laugh as they say "Slave Pens? In the River Kingdoms?!? No #@$%ing way!" then I'd certainly cut it from the list.


Makes much more sense that way.


davidvs wrote:

My Kingmaker group is not enjoying the kingdom building very much. Has anyone developed better rules for this? We'd gladly pay a few dollars for a play-tested PDF alternative that is more fun.

Without providing spoilers, the basic problem is that:

(a) Realistic growth starting with a castle and how a moderately dense city develops around it produces linear growth
(b) Meta-gaming shows that an endless spread of city districts, each nearly empty except for a magic item shop and one or two other buildings, produces exponential growth.

The players in my group do not mind a little min-maxing to make our characters exceptional people so long as it fits a somewhat-realistic character concept. But the provided kingdom building rules encourage completely tossing out any semblance of realism about what a "kingdom" looks like.

We do not want to be CEOs of a corporation of chain stores selling magic items. We want to rule a kingdom!

We fear that if we make a kingdom that grows linearly (almost never using the selling of magic items for build points) it will be far too weak for what the campaign demands in the future. We do not want to make extra work for our GM by avoiding what is expected of us.

Any ideas?

I didn't modify kingdom building. Fortunately I had players that enjoyed the aesthetic part of kingdom building as well as the mechanical portion. They built realistic cities solely for the sake of building realistic cities. They felt like thus was their kingdom and they wanted to make it a great one. Maybe as a DM you should look at your players and ask: Do you really want a kingdom of magic shops and city grids? This is your legacy. Make one worthy of celebrating.

If you really want to make it a mechanic, you could incorporate a simple mechanic like:

1. Quarter filled city grid. Can sell one minor item a phase.

2. Half-filled city grid. Can sell one medium item a phase.

3. Three-quarter filled city grid. Can sell one major item a phase.

You want to keep the kingdom building rules simple. But at the same time layer in some pseudo-realism. I think the above rule might accomplish something of what you want, while not making things overly complicated.

Kingdom building is a ton of paperwork. My players have 14 city districts. Two major armies. And 106 hexes. I have a full notebook and quite a few pages of notebook paper dedicated to the kingdom. I'm lucky one player enjoys that aspect of the game and has made it easier on me. Don't make things too complicated for yourself. It will drive you crazy.

I modified the Mass Combat Rules to make army building a little more dependent on size and incorporated features you would expect into a D&D type army.


On the subject of minmaxing, and illogical build decisions(filling the entire city with magic shoppes), I tend to have my players roll loyalty checks when they do something strange, or doesn't listen to their people.

I'd tell them the councillor approach them and raise the concerns of the people. They'd have to make a loyalty check to avoid the unrest, and it'd be continuous until they solved the situation(by stop building magic shoppes, or until they beat down on it, which would lead to troubles later no doubt).

Loyalty checks are pretty far and few between so I try to squeeze them in whenever. Claiming their gold mine and failing a loyalty check caused a gold rush to the region as rumours got out, and they had to quell the excitement to get rid of the unrest.

Scarab Sages

I made a number of changes in a thread here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/kingmaker/archives/kingmakerHouseRulesByNethys

I had the same thoughts about magic items and districts that you (the OP) did, and made some simple house rules to alleviate the problem.

First, I changed how much items being sold each month are worth. I still go by the DCs in the book and the limit of one item per district, but I changed how much BP they generate. I use an excel sheet to track the market value in GP of each item sold, and once it hits 4000 GP, I award the kingdom 1 BP. This does result in a lot less BP early on (as most Minor items are worth only a fraction of 1 BP instead of 2), but later it balances out as Major items are brought in.

Second, I only allowed PCs to build a new district if they couldn't possibly fit the building they wanted in a previous district. Even then, buildings that could still fit in old districts must be built there if they can fit.

Those two are covered in my House Rules thread. There is another minor rule I didn't list, that of diminishing returns. Building another structure that already exists in the same district provides only half the bonuses, and any buildings past the second don't provide additional impact. This encourages the PCs to diversify each district, without spamming dumps or graveyards.

Having started Book 5, I can attest that these rules seem to work quite well. We've progressed 6-7 years already with their kingdom currently at size 144. Things were a bit shaky here and there early on as they expanded a bit too fast for their good, but they recovered (and a bit of excitement is good!)


I have a related question regarding selling Magic Items, I haven't quite understood how that works.

The magic item slots building produces are items that the buildings generate for the city itself, correct? And if I understood correctly, you can attempt to make the city sell these items for a substantial profit and earn a large BP increase?

The things I'm a bit weary about is that you keep generating items every upkeep phase, and that does sound very tedious. Or do you only do this if the current slot is unoccupied? Rerolling items every phase, especially if you're going through a longer period could be very tedious.

The other thing is that city magic items seems pretty easy to sell. Ok, the DC was 30-40 if I don't remember wrong, but it still sounds pretty crazy if they can attempt this every round. What's peoples general opinions on this?

Also, are the PCs able to buy these items from the city with adventure money? Does the city gain a BP boost if they do? And can the PCs sell the magic sword of awesomeness +5 they found to the city for BP, does this work the same as trying to sell an item they already have?


Gentleman wrote:

I have a related question regarding selling Magic Items, I haven't quite understood how that works.

The magic item slots building produces are items that the buildings generate for the city itself, correct? And if I understood correctly, you can attempt to make the city sell these items for a substantial profit and earn a large BP increase?

Yes

Gentleman wrote:
The things I'm a bit weary about is that you keep generating items every upkeep phase, and that does sound very tedious. Or do you only do this if the current slot is unoccupied? Rerolling items every phase, especially if you're going through a longer period could be very tedious.

Only reroll if the slot is empty. That can happen by either the PCs buying the item or it being sold during the economy phase.

Gentleman wrote:
The other thing is that city magic items seems pretty easy to sell. Ok, the DC was 30-40 if I don't remember wrong, but it still sounds pretty crazy if they can attempt this every round. What's peoples general opinions on this?

Honestly it's kind of weird...but I'm guessing it represents taxs on the item sold, since they sell for quite a lot. DC is decently high but not impossible. I think there might be better ways to do it, but that's what they've handed us so far.

Gentleman wrote:
Also, are the PCs able to buy these items from the city with adventure money? Does the city gain a BP boost if they do? And can the PCs sell the magic sword of awesomeness +5 they found to the city for BP, does this work the same as trying to sell an item they already have?

yes they can buy them, but the city doesn't get any BPs. I guess power balance reasons are why, but its hard to understand from an in character perspective. The PCs can most certainly donate both items and money to add BPs. The rules are specifically discussed in the same section that selling an items is. Every X amount of gold you donate is worth 1 BP (don't have the materials with me so I can't say what X is).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

X = 4,000 gp.


davidvs wrote:
davidvs wrote:
We fear that if we make a kingdom that grows linearly (almost never using the selling of magic items for build points) it will be far too weak for what the campaign demands in the future. We do not want to make extra work for our GM by avoiding what is expected of us.

So this fear is not justified?

Later in the campaign what supposed to be a medium-sized threat for a supposedly large kingdom will not totally levels our actually small kingdom?

(No spoilers please.)

Part of our concern is that two of the melee PCs are half-orcs. They become older quickly: middle age at 30 years, old at 45 years. So the easy GM solution to unoptimized kingdom building (more years of nothing exciting happening in between books for extra kingdom growth time) would be quite damaging to these PCs.

I think, based on the experience of my group (three plus years in game time and currently finishing the third module with a kingdom size of 28), that you won't have a problem. My group has been building logically, both because they are blessedly opposed to cheesiness of all sorts and because I haven't revealed the kingdom building rules to them. Just take your best bets on what needs to be built next, and you'll be fine. If your kingdom is struggling, ask your GM if you can hire a planning adviser, or start consulations with prominent citizens. This will give him the opportunity to give you some guidance when needed.

Kingdom building does kind of start slow, but it really picks up once you get to a certain size. Even with short-lived half-orcs, I don't think aging will really become an issue, assuming they started pretty young. And, of course the penalties the fighter types get can be offset by magic at higher levels, and are balanced by actual increase to the mental stats.


I tossed the entire 'sell magic items for BP' portion of the rules and replaced it with nothing (at first, later I expanded the role of Mines and special resources for flavour reasons), and it made for a much better kingdom. It meant the PCs could only afford standing armies at the cost of crippling their kingdom expansion (which is what I wanted), which led them to have a only single, small professional army until they actually went to war. As the war dragged on, it rapidly emptied their treasury and led to a nail-bitingly tense race between military victory and economic defeat. I even had a couple of PCs planning to liquidate their personal property for cash to convert to BPs to keep their armies in the field another week or two.

In other words, eliminating the 'sell magic items for BPs' rule led to a much better game for both myself and my players.

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