Grick |
I'm tempted to allow it to work in my game, but don't have a lot of experience with VS. Is there a reason why it would be bad?
How official do you want?
James Jacobs allows it in his games (from postings before the errata) and there was at least one adventure with an NPC using it. Later, the errata made it not work.
I think if someone wants to spring vital strike with their medium longsword or whatever, fine. If someone is cheesing out a T-rex or Gargantumonk or something with 90 dice, slap it down.
Usagi Yojimbo |
Usagi Yojimbo wrote:
I'm tempted to allow it to work in my game, but don't have a lot of experience with VS. Is there a reason why it would be bad?
How official do you want?
I'm curious about the reasoning behind it. I know that mechanically they don't work together because one is a full action, but why was that decision made?
Is it overpowered? Just not the flavor they were looking for? It was Tuesday? :)
0gre |
Grick wrote:Usagi Yojimbo wrote:
I'm tempted to allow it to work in my game, but don't have a lot of experience with VS. Is there a reason why it would be bad?
How official do you want?
I'm curious about the reasoning behind it. I know that mechanically they don't work together because one is a full action, but why was that decision made?
Is it overpowered? Just not the flavor they were looking for? It was Tuesday? :)
There has been a gob of discussion on it and the developers have popped in and talked about it a few times. Brush up on your search-fu.
Erik Freund RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 |
Vital Strike is supposed to mimic the potency of a Full Attack in a single attack roll. (Kindof)
Spring Attack is a replacement for Full Attack. It only deals the damage of a single attack, but the extra movement is (in theory) supposed to be "worth" those extra attacks you're giving up.
Would you consider it balanced to be able to do a Full Attack in the midst of a Spring Attack? It's powerful, yes. Is it "two feats worth" of powerful? That's essentially what you're asking.
I say it's fine.
thepuregamer |
Usagi Yojimbo wrote:
I'm tempted to allow it to work in my game, but don't have a lot of experience with VS. Is there a reason why it would be bad?
How official do you want?
James Jacobs allows it in his games (from postings before the errata) and there was at least one adventure with an NPC using it. Later, the errata made it not work.
I think if someone wants to spring vital strike with their medium longsword or whatever, fine. If someone is cheesing out a T-rex or Gargantumonk or something with 90 dice, slap it down.
Even with the gargantumonk it is not so big a deal. A monk would be giving up attacking his first round to drink a potion or use a wand of strong jaw. And unless he is also permanently enlarged. I do not see how he is going to be breaking much of any game by giving up his 1st round or 2 to buff up. The spells that give monks ridiculous unarmed strike damage all last minutes.
So, in closing, there really is no balance issue from allowing a person to use vital strike during a spring attack or on a 1 attack charge.
I personally think that vital strike should work when you make 1 attack in a round(like overhand chop).
Name Violation |
The reason it doesn't officially work is that Vital Strike is a standard action, while charging and Spring Attack are technically full-round actions. Balance-wise, I don't expect you'll have any problems if you allow it.
lol, quoting someone with the same avatar
the only "real" reason not to allow it is because of a fighter archetype that specifically gains that ability in place of another class ability.
so if you allow it, just give that one fighter archtype a good replacement
meatrace |
Also I allow vital striking on Charges, which mimics the old Powerful Charge feat.
I wish they'd clean up the language on vital strike. It's really confusing. Just say like "If you make a standard attack you deal additional dice damage equal to the damage dice of the weapon dealing the attack. As with all additional damage dice, these are not multiplied on a critical hit."
BigNorseWolf |
Also I allow vital striking on Charges, which mimics the old Powerful Charge feat.
I wish they'd clean up the language on vital strike. It's really confusing. Just say like "If you make a standard attack you deal additional dice damage equal to the damage dice of the weapon dealing the attack. As with all additional damage dice, these are not multiplied on a critical hit."
The problem with the ruling is, i think, their reliance on the not defined "attack action" , which could very easily be interpreted as either a standard action, or in place of an attack. I have NO idea why they didn't just go with a standard action.
meatrace |
meatrace wrote:The problem with the ruling is, i think, their reliance on the not defined "attack action" , which could very easily be interpreted as either a standard action, or in place of an attack. I have NO idea why they didn't just go with a standard action.Also I allow vital striking on Charges, which mimics the old Powerful Charge feat.
I wish they'd clean up the language on vital strike. It's really confusing. Just say like "If you make a standard attack you deal additional dice damage equal to the damage dice of the weapon dealing the attack. As with all additional damage dice, these are not multiplied on a critical hit."
My confusion didn't lie in standard attack, which I'm pretty clear on even if it isn't defined satisfactorily. It's all the other stuff "do twice the amount of damage. but don't add weapon bonuses. or extra dice. or strength. also it can't crit." like...say what you mean, son!
It should be worded so it's "whenever you make only a single attack on your turn" so that it works with charge/spring attack.
Usagi Yojimbo |
Usagi Yojimbo wrote:There has been a gob of discussion on it and the developers have popped in and talked about it a few times. Brush up on your search-fu.Grick wrote:How official do you want?
I'm curious about the reasoning behind it. I know that mechanically they don't work together because one is a full action, but why was that decision made?
I've seen the gobs of discussion and I've seen James comment that he wasn't involved in the rules discussion on it, I haven't seen anything from the Paizonians saying "this is why that decision was made".
If that has happened, could you tell me the thread name, so I can find it?
Jason Bulmahn Director of Game Design |
3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
When I built the Vital Strike feat chain, it was designed specifically to speak to the need for martial characters to be able to take a move action and still do a reasonable amount of damage in a single turn. The decision was made to limit this chain to make it a character decision point, as opposed to just making it part of a larger "must have" feat stack to make "The Baddest Fighter on the Block".
In hindsight, it might be a bit to restrictive, but RAW that is the way it currently functions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Gloom |
When I built the Vital Strike feat chain, it was designed specifically to speak to the need for martial characters to be able to take a move action and still do a reasonable amount of damage in a single turn. The decision was made to limit this chain to make it a character decision point, as opposed to just making it part of a larger "must have" feat stack to make "The Baddest Fighter on the Block".
In hindsight, it might be a bit to restrictive, but RAW that is the way it currently functions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
What's your opinion that some people have come forward to suggest..
1) Vital Strike is usable whenever you make a single attack in a round.
2) Vital Strike automatically unlocks it's improved variants at various milestones (the suggestion was through BAB)
My opinion on it, is that it should work with a charge or with a spring attack, and using it as suggested in the first suggestion works well. As far as the second suggestion.. I reworded vital strike to simply do extra damage dice equal to weapon damage for each attack beyond the first that they have. Again, does not multiply in crit etc.
thepuregamer |
When I built the Vital Strike feat chain, it was designed specifically to speak to the need for martial characters to be able to take a move action and still do a reasonable amount of damage in a single turn. The decision was made to limit this chain to make it a character decision point, as opposed to just making it part of a larger "must have" feat stack to make "The Baddest Fighter on the Block".
In hindsight, it might be a bit to restrictive, but RAW that is the way it currently functions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I can understand your apprehension of creating abilities that are so strong that they are no longer options but requirements for playing a class.
I believe this is why monk's were banned from getting improved natural attack as well. It would be a must take feat.
But I am not entirely sure that spring attack is a feat tree that all melee characters wish to venture down. It requires 13 dex and 3 feats. If you allow spring attack to work with vital strike, now characters are spending up to 6 feats. I believe that it would be a better option at this point than it currently is, but I do not think every fighter would take it.
Usagi Yojimbo |
When I built the Vital Strike feat chain, it was designed specifically to speak to the need for martial characters to be able to take a move action and still do a reasonable amount of damage in a single turn. The decision was made to limit this chain to make it a character decision point, as opposed to just making it part of a larger "must have" feat stack to make "The Baddest Fighter on the Block".
In hindsight, it might be a bit to restrictive, but RAW that is the way it currently functions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ah-ha!
Thanks for
A) Responding within three hours of the question being posted (wow) and,
B) Having a good reason that I hadn't thought of.
Yay Paizo! :)
Tom S 820 |
Here is how I fixed it in my game.
It works on any spell that is Single attack roll and has no secondary save. So no Disintegrate but, Scorching Ray can do 8d6 on attack roll if you do not shoot the second ray. Ie Scorching Ray Caster level 7 min and BAB +6 one shot with 8D6 Damage or two for 4D6 and 4D6. It gives them a chance to break through some energy resistance.
It dose not work on any natural attack that dose not give it own secondary attack. Ie Bite +10/ +5
(Wich I think are none)
It dose work with a charge, spring attack, ride- by, fly-by.
Lance and Brace weapons now do double weapon dice damage on they special triggers(2w+BFM). Not 2w+2BFN.
Spited Charge Work the same like it was Vital Strike one extra Dice . 3W+BFN. Not 3w+3BFN.
(Big Fat Number)
The way I look it monster get pounce PC do not. So that evens the playing field.
Spell caster can do it not that far in the chain to really mater that much.
Best or worst case lance is W base + W Charge + W Spirited Charge+ W Vital Strike 1+ W Vital Strike 2+ W Vital Strike 3.
Total 6W+BFN or 7W+2BFN on critical hit.
That 6D8+BFN for most mounted guys for cost of 6 feats plus they can not pull this trick off till Level 16 or 17 due when they can get the feat.
shallowsoul |
When I built the Vital Strike feat chain, it was designed specifically to speak to the need for martial characters to be able to take a move action and still do a reasonable amount of damage in a single turn. The decision was made to limit this chain to make it a character decision point, as opposed to just making it part of a larger "must have" feat stack to make "The Baddest Fighter on the Block".
In hindsight, it might be a bit to restrictive, but RAW that is the way it currently functions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
AKA Spring Attack + Vital Strike.
StreamOfTheSky |
When I built the Vital Strike feat chain, it was designed specifically to speak to the need for martial characters to be able to take a move action and still do a reasonable amount of damage in a single turn. The decision was made to limit this chain to make it a character decision point, as opposed to just making it part of a larger "must have" feat stack to make "The Baddest Fighter on the Block".
In hindsight, it might be a bit to restrictive, but RAW that is the way it currently functions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I understand what it was intended to be, but the result has been far from that. It does not work with Spring Attack, and it works best on a creature with a big honkin' weapon than it does with a skilled light skirmisher, as I imagine you envisioned it. A while ago I came up with what I think would work better. Given more time, I would probably just let Spring Attack work with any standard action, rather than making a special exception for Vital Strike, and place BAB caps on the VS feats.
So, changes would be:
Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: You can take a move action and use a standard action at any point during the move, without provoking any attacks of opportunity from any target(s) if your standard action is an attack action. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action to make a single attack at your highest base attack bonus, it deals additional damage equal to your Base Attack Bonus, up to +10. This extra damage, unlike most non random damage bonuses, is not multiplied on a critical hit or in any other circumstance (such as against a charge with a brace weapon), but is merely added to the total.
Special: A monster with this feat can only gain bonus damage up to its CR, if its CR is lower than its BAB, to a maximum of +10 damage.
Improved Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +11, Vital Strike.
Benefit: When you use the attack action to make a single attack at your highest base attack bonus, it deals additional damage equal to twice your Base Attack Bonus, up to +30 at BAB +15. This extra damage, unlike most non random damage bonuses, is not multiplied on a critical hit or in any other circumstance (such as against a charge with a brace weapon), but is merely added to the total.
Special: A monster with this feat can only gain bonus damage up to 2x its CR, if its CR is lower than its BAB, to a maximum of +30 damage.
Greater Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +16, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike.
Benefit: When you use the attack action to make a single attack, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage equal to three times your Base Attack Bonus, up to +60 at BAB +20. This extra damage, unlike most non random damage bonuses, is not multiplied on a critical hit or in any other circumstance (such as against a charge with a brace weapon), but is merely added to the total.
Special: A monster with this feat can only gain bonus damage up to 3x its CR, if its CR is lower than its BAB, to a maximum of +60 damage.
The special line is to try and prevent game balance issues with monsters with lots of HD for their CR.
Stynkk |
AKA Spring Attack + Vital Strike.
This thread is dead, please make your own.
Just move and use vital strike. Using spring attack only offers one thing, the ability to negate movement AoOs. Not being able to use it with spring attack is fine.
For the record, almost every combat feat works better with a big honkin weapon...
shallowsoul |
shallowsoul wrote:AKA Spring Attack + Vital Strike.This thread is dead, please make your own.
Just move and use vital strike. Using spring attack only offers one thing, the ability to negate movement AoOs. Not being able to use it with spring attack is fine.
For the record, almost every combat feat works better with a big honkin weapon...
I already did and I was directed to this one.
Now what?
Pinky's Brain |
For the record, almost every combat feat works better with a big honkin weapon...
For a dead thread you are sure eager to get your own lick in :)
Few combat feats directly improve dependent on weapon size ... good old power attack adds as much damage for a tiny creature with a two handed sword as a gargantuan one.
Really whichever way you look at it, Vital Strike is a failure ...
Pathfinder really needs an Unearthed Arcana type book to fix stuff like this semi-officially ... we shouldn't have to wait for 2.0 ...
Stynkk |
Few combat feats directly improve dependent on weapon size ... good old power attack adds as much damage for a tiny creature with a two handed sword as a gargantuan one.
I was repsonding to Shallow Soul's new posts.
Well, that is one way of looking at things, but the gargantuan sword is already dealing a much higher base damage, so adding even more damage to that would create a much higher amount of damage that with the tiny one. It is a proportional effect, but adding damage to an already large amount is better (damage total wise) than adding damage to a small amount.
By your reckoning VS should also be perfectly symmetrical, it doubles damage dice across the board, just the same for a tiny weapon vs a gargantuan weapon. Your statement about VS lies in the same place that mine does, certain weapon/weapon sizes just deal more damage and become more effective.
Cleave is more powerful with a giant weapon than it is with a dagger, it's just numbers.