Is an opponent tripped by using the 'Greater Trip' feat considered prone for the AoO?


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when someone provokes attacks of opportunity for being tripped by "greater trip" is he considered prone while doing so? or is he provoking them before being knocked down? haven´t found it anywhere yet.


Yes.

But when they get up, the AoO comes before the trip, so you hit them when they're down, but can't trip them because they're already down.


thank you for the instant answer!
what about while prone, does he threat the adjacent squares while on the floor? and can he crawl away performing an withdrawaction? and if so, could he get up afterwards in the same round ?


Quote:
what about while prone, does he threat the adjacent squares while on the floor?

-Yes. He's just at a -4 to attack them. He can still do so.

Quote:

and can he crawl away performing an withdrawaction?

and if so, could he get up afterwards in the same round ?

-Glad i looked this up, they changed it from 3.5

Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.

So yes, you can crawl 5 feet away as a move action.(being immune to trip because you're already prone) and then stand up.

Now, that makes it sound like crawling ignores the normal rules for attacks of opportunity where you only draw aoo from people who's threatened square you leave.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#actions-in-combat


Yes, he may still perform a withdrawl, it's just that his move speed is now effectively 5.


erik542 wrote:
Yes, he may still perform a withdrawl, it's just that his move speed is now effectively 5.

I don't think you can withdraw and crawl at the same time, its one or the other.


oh, the other thing again:

"Yes" they are considered prone, or "yes" the opponent is provoking them afore? i´d guess you meant the second, right?

another time thank you for answering to my questions!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
erik542 wrote:
Yes, he may still perform a withdrawl, it's just that his move speed is now effectively 5.
I don't think you can withdraw and crawl at the same time, its one or the other.

RAW, there's nothing that says so.


erik542 wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
erik542 wrote:
Yes, he may still perform a withdrawl, it's just that his move speed is now effectively 5.
I don't think you can withdraw and crawl at the same time, its one or the other.
RAW, there's nothing that says so.

By raw withdraw is a full round action*, not a movement type. Crawling is a move equivalent action. You cannot perform a move equivalent and full round action at the same time.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
By raw withdraw is a full round action*, not a movement type. Crawling is a move equivalent action. You cannot perform a move equivalent and full round action at the same time.

Slightly off-topic: I've never understood why withdrawing is specifically a full round action when 5-footing and using a standard action to move is the same thing. Sure, you only really lose a swift action, but still... What's the logic behind that distinction?


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
erik542 wrote:
RAW, there's nothing that says so.
By raw withdraw is a full round action*, not a movement type. Crawling is a move equivalent action. You cannot perform a move equivalent and full round action at the same time.

To expand on BNW´s point, crawling isn´t a MODIFICATION of your land speed, i.e. you can´t take any movement based actions (e.g. Withdraw, or Charge) just with a reduced speed, but is ´it´s own action´.

Also note the CORE Rogue Trick, Rogue Crawl, which explicitly adds the ability to ´take a 5-step while crawling´: ¨Rogue Crawl (Ex): While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.¨

...So I´d say that, yeah, ´RAW, there´s something that says so.´. 8-)

Notably, Flying creatures can´t be tripped. I´m NOT sure of the RAW for a creature with a Fly Speed, but who was standing at the time they were tripped. Are they immune to the Trip to begin with? Do they need to ´stand up´ before Flying? Or can they Fly normally (i.e. not Crawling) from Prone? If so, do they even need to MOVE to remove the Prone Condition, or can they automatically remove it (without provoking from standing up), at least if they pass a Hover Fly Check?


Foghammer wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
By raw withdraw is a full round action*, not a movement type. Crawling is a move equivalent action. You cannot perform a move equivalent and full round action at the same time.
Slightly off-topic: I've never understood why withdrawing is specifically a full round action when 5-footing and using a standard action to move is the same thing. Sure, you only really lose a swift action, but still... What's the logic behind that distinction?

Because with the withdraw action, you can move. You can't 5-foot if you move in a round.


With a 5 foot step you wind up 5 feet away. With a withdraw action you wind up 40 or 60 feet away.


To clarify, you can only 5´ step if you don´t otherwise move.
It doesn´t matter what types of actions you use to move, whether a Move Action (via your Move-Equivalent Action allotment or your Standard Action allotment) or even some wonky Swift Action movement ability. So that´s why Withdraw as Full-Round is useful :-)


Quandary wrote:

To clarify, you can only 5´ step if you don´t otherwise move.

It doesn´t matter what types of actions you use to move, whether a Move Action (via your Move-Equivalent Action allotment or your Standard Action allotment) or even some wonky Swift Action movement ability. So that´s why Withdraw as Full-Round is useful :-)

Hey! i have my own translator. Sweet :)


Make moving while prone the same speed as climbing while prone and make an acrobatics check to stand or move without provoking. Not sure if this is actually a rule but it sounds fair to me.


Foghammer wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
By raw withdraw is a full round action*, not a movement type. Crawling is a move equivalent action. You cannot perform a move equivalent and full round action at the same time.
Slightly off-topic: I've never understood why withdrawing is specifically a full round action when 5-footing and using a standard action to move is the same thing. Sure, you only really lose a swift action, but still... What's the logic behind that distinction?

If you use a 5 foot step you are not allowed to your move action to move.


Trista1986 wrote:
Make moving while prone the same speed as climbing while prone and make an acrobatics check to stand or move without provoking. Not sure if this is actually a rule but it sounds fair to me.

Does the tripper think it is fair that he took feats to get you down, and you can just walk away?


to clarify the headline and the answer from BigNorseWolf:

kortzen wrote:


when someone provokes attacks of opportunity for being tripped by "greater trip" is he considered prone while doing so? or is he provoking them before being knocked down? haven´t found it anywhere yet.]
BigNorseWolf wrote:
yes.

so "yes." they are considered prone?

or

"yes." the opponent is provoking before beeing knocked prone? :P


wraithstrike wrote:
Trista1986 wrote:
Make moving while prone the same speed as climbing while prone and make an acrobatics check to stand or move without provoking. Not sure if this is actually a rule but it sounds fair to me.
Does the tripper think it is fair that he took feats to get you down, and you can just walk away?

You can't just walk away if you read what I wrote. Make an acrobatics check to stand up or move. Would be no different than starting from your feet. Ever seen a gymnast? Does the acrobat who put a lot of ranks in acrobatics think its fair that he gets hit 3 times when he fumbles a skill once?

1st Acro Check for tumbling
2nd Acro check for not falling prone when getting hit
3rd Acro check for getting up

1st AOO from failed tumble
2nd attack Next round fighter takes advantage of downed rogue
3rd Rogue stands up and gets AOO again

If you allow an acrobatics check at each point then the rogue might still get hit and not be flanking but will also not be totally screwed.


i guess it is a matter of the rules. one can always change things via houserules to make them fit the own preferations. but i am interested in what is most probably the official perspective.

crawling 5 feet is a move action. not a 5'shift but a complete moveaction.
withdraw is a fullroundaction which allows moving up to two times your speed.
moving two times would cost you your standardaction and your moveaction normally.
so kind of a fullround equivalent. same for crawling 5 feet and get up, which would consume both too.
could 'withdraw' be considered two movements with the special property of withdraw the first 5' without provoking?
i mean movement-actions that are doing nothing but moving (crawling/getting up from prone).


please don´t forget the initial question, while we are discussing about sth. else now :)


kortzen wrote:

please don´t forget the initial question, while we are discussing about sth. else now :)

crawling 5 feet is a move action. not a 5'shift but a complete moveaction.
withdraw is a fullroundaction which allows moving up to two times your speed.
moving two times would cost you your standardaction and your moveaction normally.
so kind of a fullround equivalent. same for crawling 5 feet and get up, which would consume both too.
could 'withdraw' be considered two movements with the special property of withdraw the first 5' without provoking?
i mean movement-actions that are doing nothing but moving (crawling/getting up from prone).

Yes and moving thru or out of a threatened square provokes so unless you withdrew from combat in which case you couldn't take a separate action to stand as Withdraw is a Full round action you would provoke.

To answer your original question he would be prone when your first AOO is rolled as the feat describes him provoking as part of being prone. Whenever you successfully trip a target meaning he would have to be prone for him to provoke.


Talynonyx wrote:
Foghammer wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
By raw withdraw is a full round action*, not a movement type. Crawling is a move equivalent action. You cannot perform a move equivalent and full round action at the same time.
Slightly off-topic: I've never understood why withdrawing is specifically a full round action when 5-footing and using a standard action to move is the same thing. Sure, you only really lose a swift action, but still... What's the logic behind that distinction?
Because with the withdraw action, you can move. You can't 5-foot if you move in a round.

You also can't take a 5 foot step in combination with any other type of grid movement. A move action like drawing a sword yes but not another move action


Trista1986 wrote:


To answer your original question he would be prone when your first AOO is rolled as the feat describes him provoking as part of being prone. Whenever you successfully trip a target meaning he would have to be prone for him to provoke.
i´m not sure about that.
Quote:
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

that doesn´t say anything concerning the prone condition. doesn´t say clearly if the aoo comes before or after the knockdown. but it would serve me well, since i´m using great trip with my charakter.


kortzen wrote:
Trista1986 wrote:


To answer your original question he would be prone when your first AOO is rolled as the feat describes him provoking as part of being prone. Whenever you successfully trip a target meaning he would have to be prone for him to provoke.
i´m not sure about that.
Quote:
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.
that doesn´t say anything concerning the prone condition. doesn´t say clearly if the aoo comes before or after the knockdown. but it would serve me well, since i´m using great trip with my charakter.

No it doesn't say prone but you do have to successfully trip him. If he's not prone then you did not successfully trip him now did you and thus no you will not get your AOO. I just want to point out that I believe the guy tripped would only provoke to the tripper not everyone else until he tried to stand up. I'm pretty sure thats how that one works.


Trista1986 wrote:


No it doesn't say prone but you do have to successfully trip him. If he's not prone then you did not successfully trip him now did you and thus no you will not get your AOO. I just want to point out that I believe the guy tripped would only provoke to the tripper not everyone else until he tried to stand up. I'm pretty sure thats how that one works.

sometimes, the AoO sets in just before the accident that provokes it is happening.

this may sound strange but it seems to be the common-consens.
for example provoking for standing up from prone sets the AoO before someone gets up.
this is why you can not trip him again for getting up. there is little doubt about that ;)
so i can imagine that the AoO in this case sets in before the opponent provokes it from anybody (that he does provoke from anybody was discussed several times before in other threads too)

but how is it in this case? does it set in before the opponent is prone?
any else oppinions on that?


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Since it's been made very clear that the AoO for standing up from prone happens while they are still prone, it only makes sense to me that the AoO for a successful greater trip happens while they are still standing. Just like the AoO for movement happens while the target is still in the square leaving which provoked the attack.


Cult of Vorg wrote:
Since it's been made very clear that the AoO for standing up from prone happens while they are still prone, it only makes sense to me that the AoO for a successful greater trip happens while they are still standing. Just like the AoO for movement happens while the target is still in the square leaving which provoked the attack.

i can see your point and agree with it. other voices?


Cult of Vorg wrote:
Since it's been made very clear that the AoO for standing up from prone happens while they are still prone, it only makes sense to me that the AoO for a successful greater trip happens while they are still standing. Just like the AoO for movement happens while the target is still in the square leaving which provoked the attack.

If they are still standing then you have not tripped them and thus do not provoke as by standards of the greater trip feat.

You can make free attacks against foes that you knockdown. It may seem that you are making the AOO after the trip and you are but it is not the trip attemt that give you an AOO. If that was so you he would provoke just by you swinging at him. You are not succesful in your trip attack until he hits the ground "AKA PRONE" and thus immediately you get an AOO


I think the question here is whether or not the attack of opportunity comes from your opponent hitting the ground and being disoriented or if it is from his loss of balance when he begins falling? When you try to trip a person, you have really succeeded as soon as you have put them far enough off balance that they can no longer recover, it has very little to do with them actually hitting the ground specifically.

I used to play both the attack on a successful trip and the one for standing backwards, but once it was clarified that you are still prone for the AOO while standing I realized that the one for the successful trip needed to follow suit in order to be balanced.


Greater Trip says it causes AoO's on successful trip, not when opponent is knocked down or prone, so AoO happens on the way down, just like every other AoO interrupts the action rather than being in response to it. You succeed on your trip attempt and then that causes opponent to go prone.

Grand Lodge

Trista1986 wrote:
Make moving while prone the same speed as climbing while prone and make an acrobatics check to stand or move without provoking. Not sure if this is actually a rule but it sounds fair to me.

Yep, it is a rule. (I added the bold)

PRD wrote:


In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.

Original question: Yes (IMO) the target is prone but I can see where a DM would rule that the attack happens "on the way down". In our game we also run that only the attacker gets the AoO. That is also the way I have seen it handled in PFS (Prone for the AoO and only the tripper gets the AoO).


Cult of Vorg wrote:
Greater Trip says it causes AoO's on successful trip, not when opponent is knocked down or prone, so AoO happens on the way down just like every other AoO. You succeed on your trip attempt and then that causes opponent to go prone.

The point is you do not have a successful trip until they are prone. There are no rules for being off balance and if so why aren't I be able to substitue acrobatics for my CMD as that is now a balance check.

Tripped conditions states that you are prone after a successful trip attack.

The brief description says after you knockdown you can make free attacks So can you be knocked down before you are tripped. The answer is no. The act of getting knocked down AKA tripped is what causes the AOO.

Oh and if you are off balance then wouldn't you be denied dex? Wow with that as a rule you will be getting into more trouble thatn just being prone.


Crispy3ed wrote:
Trista1986 wrote:
Make moving while prone the same speed as climbing while prone and make an acrobatics check to stand or move without provoking. Not sure if this is actually a rule but it sounds fair to me.

Yep, it is a rule. (I added the bold)

PRD wrote:


In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.

Original question: Yes (IMO) the target is prone but I can see where a DM would rule that the attack happens "on the way down". In our game we also run that only the attacker gets the AoO. That is also the way I have seen it handled in PFS (Prone for the AoO and only the tripper gets the AoO).

Ya I still get 3.5 and pathfinder mixed since they are fairly similar. Tumble makes you think you have to tumble while acrobatics makes you think fancy movement.


No, it's very simple. Nothing in the Greater Trip feat mentions knockdown or prone. The act succeeding the CMB on a trip attempt with this feat causes the target to provoke AoOs. AoO's always interrupt the action, so therefore they are resolved while target is still standing, otherwise you're having the AoO wait for the action to resolve, which doesn't happen with any other AoO without specific wording exception. There's no rules saying that tripping or being tripped takes away dex bonus to ac or creates a new "off balance" condition, so why add those?

When you move from a threatened square, you provoke AoO that hits you in the original square, not the destination. When you AoO a spell, it interrupts the spell, not after the spell is completed. When you AoO someone standing up from prone, it hits while they're still prone. So, when you AoO someone from being greater tripped, it hits while they're still standing.

Trista1986 wrote:
Cult of Vorg wrote:
Greater Trip says it causes AoO's on successful trip, not when opponent is knocked down or prone, so AoO happens on the way down just like every other AoO. You succeed on your trip attempt and then that causes opponent to go prone.

The point is you do not have a successful trip until they are prone. There are no rules for being off balance and if so why aren't I be able to substitue acrobatics for my CMD as that is now a balance check.

Tripped conditions states that you are prone after a successful trip attack.

The brief description says after you knockdown you can make free attacks So can you be knocked down before you are tripped. The answer is no. The act of getting knocked down AKA tripped is what causes the AOO.

Oh and if you are off balance then wouldn't you be denied dex? Wow with that as a rule you will be getting into more trouble thatn just being prone.


Crispy3ed wrote:

Yep, it is a rule. (I added the bold)

PRD wrote:


In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.

very usefull hint ! thanks.

Cult of Vorg wrote:


When you move from a threatened square, you provoke AoO that hits you in the original square, not the destination. When you AoO a spell, it interrupts the spell, not after the spell is completed. When you AoO someone standing up from prone, it hits while they're still prone. So, when you AoO someone from being greater tripped, it hits while they're still standing.

until now we have 2:2 votes and one not exactly clear one from NorseWolf. :)

anybodys oppinions or votes on the prone discussion?


Quandary wrote:

To clarify, you can only 5´ step if you don´t otherwise move.

It doesn´t matter what types of actions you use to move, whether a Move Action (via your Move-Equivalent Action allotment or your Standard Action allotment) or even some wonky Swift Action movement ability. So that´s why Withdraw as Full-Round is useful :-)

I know what the mechanics are, I was interested in the logic behind it. Why distinguish a full round action from something that normally takes a move and a standard? What could one do with a swift action that could break the game?

EDIT: On-topic, I see it like this... The fighter uses his polearm to trip some mook. As the mook's legs are coming out from under him, he is considered prone, just not on the ground. He effectively has no way of defending himself as he is in a quasi-freefall state. The fighter curls the trip attack back around and over the mook for his AoO, and drives him to the ground.

That's me injecting "realism" or "common sense" to a game built on dice rolls and magic. It only makes sense to me that the trip and subsequent AoO imply that the target is at a disadvantage. The timing isn't something I question either. You trip first. The effects of most things in game are instantaneous. You trip him, he's prone. No one would question the fact that the target is prone for the next attacker in initiative, despite the fact that all events in a round happen "simultaneously."

Further EDIT: I forgot a point, one about AoO interrupting what triggered them... Yes... However the feat says that you have to successfully trip the opponent first, meaning that they are prone. Otherwise, interrupting your own turn would create an event where Combat Reflexes could easily be exploited by making a trip attempt that triggers AoO and interrupts, you attack, trip attempt again triggers, you attack, trip attempt, interrupt, etc. That is, IF you follow that timing rule without questioning or adjudicating. I rule in favor of "trip first, attack prone enemy second."


Hmm. Haven't seen the potential for air juggling on the trip before. Looks to me like that is RAW, unless there's a rule about not being able to AoO off of an AoO, or an errata making an exception on Greater Trip's AoO timing. I'm sure someone has an answer to this, since that sort of juggle was the reason for interpretting the stand-up AoO as happening while still prone.

"only makes sense to me that the trip and subsequent AoO imply that the target is at a disadvantage."
They are at a disadvantage, that's represented by provoking an AoO, no need to further penalize them.

All this stuff is why I hate the AoO system. It's nice to give all combatants a stake in the combat round outside of their action, but it's so gamey, since the in-game justifications for them lead to further complications like the early prone penalty. I mean, Grtr Bull Rush causes AoOs, shouldn't that guy count as prone or grappled as he's out of control flying or sliding away?


Foghammer wrote:
I rule in favor of "trip first, attack prone enemy second."

okay. now its 3:2 plus one unclear from NorseWolf. some more?


kortzen wrote:
Foghammer wrote:
I rule in favor of "trip first, attack prone enemy second."
okay. now its 3:2 plus one unclear from NorseWolf. some more?

Wow this thread got derailed hardcore.

Ok, so in this post Jason Buhlman clarifies that "You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally."

This implies that when you take an AoO triggered by some action, it happens before the action is resolves and its effect takes place. Therefore, as it is the act of tripping that provokes and AoO with greater trip, the creature would not be prone when the AoO happens, since the creature is not yet prone.

You can think of it like this: When you AoO a creature getting up, it's still prone when you hit it. When you AoO a creature falling down, it's still standing when you hit it.


Got it, the same action cannot provoke more than one AoO, so just like a person running through 4 threatened squares only provokes once not three times, succumbing to a trip will only provoke one attack no matter how many trip attempts contributed to that succumbing.

For instance, 4 people with greater trip all using readied actions to simultaneously succeed on one target will only each get 1 AoO against the target, not 4 each. Similarly, using an AoO from a trip to trip will cause no change in status so will not provoke another.


Cult of Vorg wrote:

Got it, the same action cannot provoke more than one AoO, so just like a person running through 4 threatened squares only provokes once not three times, succumbing to a trip will only provoke one attack no matter how many trip attempts contributed to that succumbing.

For instance, 4 people with greater trip all using readied actions to simultaneously succeed on one target will only each get 1 AoO against the target, not 4 each. Similarly, using an AoO from a trip to trip will cause no change in status so will not provoke another.

Not what I meant at all. It make zero sense to me that you would interrupt yourself though. YOU are not the one that provokes the attack, the one falling on his rump is.

Imagine how absolutely STUPID it would look for someone to initiate a trip, stop, hit the guy he's tripping, and THEN put him on the ground. My issue with the timing is that if you interrupt yourself, you take your AoO, then you go to trip him... wait, when he's tripped it provokes. Do I have combat reflexes? If yes, I have more AoO per round. I take another one because I'm initiating a trip.

RAW doesn't have a rule for this because it's unprecedented. I've never seen or heard of an instance where one interrupts their own trip attempt. It really needs clarification. Normally, I'm for RAW, but if this was translated into a command chain for a PC game, the game would crash because of the logic malfunction. It would infinitely loop, looking for an AoO (maybe not, if you had a way for it to calculate remaining AoOs each round, allowing it to skip the AoO step once the value reached 0 but I'm sure you can see my point).

Sure, what I'm saying requires a feat whose existence in the scenario is hypothetical and questionable, but point to something in RAW that says it couldn't be done? Combat reflexes (dex 14) and greater trip, according to what some of you are saying, would allow you to make three attacks before the guy falls over, simply because you interrupt yourself before you can ever get the trip attack in. If your timing is airtight, I have a new favorite fighter build.


Foghammer wrote:
Cult of Vorg wrote:

Got it, the same action cannot provoke more than one AoO, so just like a person running through 4 threatened squares only provokes once not three times, succumbing to a trip will only provoke one attack no matter how many trip attempts contributed to that succumbing.

For instance, 4 people with greater trip all using readied actions to simultaneously succeed on one target will only each get 1 AoO against the target, not 4 each. Similarly, using an AoO from a trip to trip will cause no change in status so will not provoke another.

Not what I meant at all. It make zero sense to me that you would interrupt yourself though. YOU are not the one that provokes the attack, the one falling on his rump is.

Imagine how absolutely STUPID it would look for someone to initiate a trip, stop, hit the guy he's tripping, and THEN put him on the ground. My issue with the timing is that if you interrupt yourself, you take your AoO, then you go to trip him... wait, when he's tripped it provokes. Do I have combat reflexes? If yes, I have more AoO per round. I take another one because I'm initiating a trip.

RAW doesn't have a rule for this because it's unprecedented. I've never seen or heard of an instance where one interrupts their own trip attempt. It really needs clarification. Normally, I'm for RAW, but if this was translated into a command chain for a PC game, the game would crash because of the logic malfunction. It would infinitely loop, looking for an AoO (maybe not, if you had a way for it to calculate remaining AoOs each round, allowing it to skip the AoO step once the value reached 0 but I'm sure you can see my point).

Sure, what I'm saying requires a feat whose existence in the scenario is hypothetical and questionable, but point to something in RAW that says it couldn't be done? Combat reflexes (dex 14) and greater trip, according to what some of you are saying, would allow you to make three attacks before the guy falls over, simply because you interrupt yourself before you...

Personally I don't see anything stupid about hooking a guisarme behind someone's leg and pulling out from under him and then whacking at him while he's trying to regain his balance and flailing his arms before falling. Combat isn't static and a lot of things can happen in the chaos.


Quote:
Since it's been made very clear that the AoO for standing up from prone happens while they are still prone, it only makes sense to me that the AoO for a successful greater trip happens while they are still standing. Just like the AoO for movement happens while the target is still in the square leaving which provoked the attack.

The AoO is triggered AFTER the successful trip attack. After the successful trip attack they are prone, so you get the bonus. There is 0 time between the successful attack and the AoO for them to still be standing.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
The AoO is triggered AFTER the successful trip attack. After the successful trip attack they are prone, so you get the bonus. There is 0 time between the successful attack and the AoO for them to still be standing.

huh? where? The feat says "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity." Nothing indicates that it happens afterwards.


Foghammer wrote:

Imagine how absolutely STUPID it would look for someone to initiate a trip, stop, hit the guy he's tripping, and THEN put him on the ground. My issue with the timing is that if you interrupt yourself, you take your AoO, then you go to trip him... wait, when he's tripped it provokes. Do I have combat reflexes? If yes, I have more AoO per round. I take another one because I'm initiating a trip.

take it this way: you succesfully trip someone, that provokes an AoO which takes place directly between the succesfull attemp and the prone condition. but you are already succesfully tripped and thus can not be tripped again to get another AoO.


vip00 wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
The AoO is triggered AFTER the successful trip attack. After the successful trip attack they are prone, so you get the bonus. There is 0 time between the successful attack and the AoO for them to still be standing.
huh? where? The feat says "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity." Nothing indicates that it happens afterwards.

It has to be a successful trip. A successful trip leaves your opponent prone. One must SUCCESSFULLY trip the opponent to receive the AoO. Therefore your timing issue is solved.


Foghammer wrote:
It has to be a successful trip. A successful trip leaves your opponent prone. One must SUCCESSFULLY trip the opponent to receive the AoO. Therefore your timing issue is solved.

I think you're having trouble with the way turn based combat abstracts time. Everything happens simultaneously. All the feat says is that your trip check needs to be successful, that does not mean the opponent is already on the ground at that time. It simply assures your success.


Successful greater trip -> provoke/resolve AoOs -> prone.
AoOs used to trip again have no further effect because trip attempt is already successful. No prone bonus to attacks because target is not prone yet.
Similarly, attempt to stand from prone -> provoke/resolve AoOs -> standing.

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