Nanomd |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
While it is stated that a cleric must be within one step along the evil/good and the chaotic/lawful axis as the deity they worship, I would like some clarification about paladins.
Yes, I am bringing this up again.
If I wanted to play a Paladin of Asmodeus, what is stopping me? Merely logic, or rules? Honestly, I have been flipping through the paladin section of my core book and can't find anything concerning their deities.
What if I wanted to play a Paladin of Asmodeus till 5th level and then go Hellknight for Smite Evil and Smite Chaos? That seems like a good combination to me. Kill everything chaotic evil. But again, is there anything really stopping me?
TheOrangeOne |
The rules for a paladin state your alignment must be lawful good. However, if your DM is willing then I don't see why there would be an issue with alignment. However to avoid all of this The Advanced Players Guide has the Anti-Paladin for those wonderful people who want to be an evil paladin.
If you do go Anti-paladin look in the Race Dhampir, good combination.
Nanomd |
The rules for a paladin state your alignment must be lawful good. However, if your DM is willing then I don't see why there would be an issue with alignment. However to avoid all of this The Advanced Players Guide has the Anti-Paladin for those wonderful people who want to be an evil paladin.
If you do go Anti-paladin look in the Race Dhampir, good combination.
I would go Anti-paladin if possible. however, the character would be for society play, and they are not legal... :(
Nanomd |
I wouldn't mind going Cavalier /Hellknight, as the cavalier could take the Order of the Lion and be all faithful to the Chelish Empire. However, the uselessness of the Cavalier's mount in most situations and the lack of that wonderful smite evil would put me down a bit. That is, of course, unless I went with a gnome / halfling character, but that just feels so... wrong.
Fighters don't really fit, I don't think, for the purpose of what I wanted to play it as. I was thinking of something with a high charisma, high strength, and average stats for the rest. Something with a hardy determination, good combat training, and a strong punch-you-in-the-face factor.
Quandary |
Paladins don´t have an actual direction connection to a Diety in terms of their powers, like Clerics do.
For them, a Diety isn´t really SO different than for a Fighter or Wizard.
They must be LG to maintain their powers though.
Revering an Evil diety would seem to eventually run in conflict with that.
(especially with Paladin Detect Evil at-will, you would be well aware that Asmodeus is very evil)
But it´s not much different than if you dedicated yourself to a non-Divine Evil person or organization.
Which would be equally non-kosher for a Paladin.
(you could have a Paladin with patriotic attitudes to Cheliax, but they would likely be directly opposed to the entire regime, e.g. French Resistance vs. Nazi Collaborator French Regime)
So unless you have a REALLY REALLY solid idea how you can serve and exemplify Cosmic Lawful Goodness by following Asmodeus, I´d say go for a LN Inquisitor type. I think they really have all you want, Judgement bonus damage and effects are really more broadly useful than Smite (it works vs. Good/Neutral opponents) and they definitely fill the ´determination´ requirement, and actually gain bonus Teamwork Feats so can be seen as MORE combat trained than Paladins (though they only have 3/4 BAB, their spells help make up for it, along with Judgement bonuses).
The COuncil of Thieves bit has been stated by Paizo to be misleadingly written. I don´t think it´s that confusing myself, basically it just says Asmodeus LIKES to draw Paladins into his sway, but this eventually always leads to said Paladins´ fall from Paladin-hood. It´s not really about some way to ´be a Paladin of Asmodeus for ever and ever´. People got confused becaused it used the phrase ´Paladin of Asmodeus´ or ´Serving Asmodeus´, forgetting that Dieties dont actually provide Paladins´ powers. Basically it suggests there could be a grey area, while the Paladin is still acting LG, but they have been tricked along a path that will eventually lead to their fall, and loss of Paladinhood.
Nanomd |
I would say that anybody trying to play a ¨Paladin of Asmodeus¨ in PFS should not be surprised if any GM rules they have broken their vows/ shifted Alignment, and subsuquently loose their powers until they return to LG and Atone. Doing so is just calling out to have your powers stripped.
Understandable... Looks like Cavalier it is then. I thought about Inquisitor, but that BAB progression just doesn't work for me, as I want the character to get to Hellknight as quickly as possible... Thanks though greatly for advice and the clarifications!
Karui Kage |
Religion for a Paladin in PFS makes no difference. Calistria, Asmodeus, whatever. So long as the Paladin himself does not stop acting Lawful or Good, I would expect a GM to allow them to play without removing their powers (at least in a public store or con game). Home games might be different.
If I saw a GM at PaizoCon or GenCon try to boot out a player / remove their powers just because of a name on their sheet, I'd try to talk them down. If the player was *acting* like the evil god they worshiped, that's one thing. Otherwise, just let the play continue. Really, it's no different then having a silly name (Captain Snuffles).
Magicdealer |
Nah, the real problem comes in when you have to accomplish faction missions for Cheliax.
Let's see...Paladin code of conduct... lawful good...respect legitimate authority, act with honor, help those in need, punish those who harm or threaten innocents...
Nothing says you can't be a paladin of Asmodeous. Just make it clear that you are supporting the lawful side of Asmodeous, and trying to incite change from within to make it good. Could be fun.
After all, you have to commit an *act*. When you come to the table, you already have your abilities and your faith. There isn't an *act* that happens there. It's not an action, since that action happened when you started following Asmodeous.
Or, in other words, if the dm complains about it too much or arbitrarily attempts to make your abilities go away, you're free to withdraw from the session or go all rules-lawyery until you get your way or are asked to leave :p
Best option? Try to run with dm's you know are ok with your choice.
LazarX |
While it is stated that a cleric must be within one step along the evil/good and the chaotic/lawful axis as the deity they worship, I would like some clarification about paladins.
Yes, I am bringing this up again.
If I wanted to play a Paladin of Asmodeus, what is stopping me?
Your Alignment. The same part of the Paladin rules that say YOU CAN NOT ASSOCIATE WITH EVIL. If you can't take on an evil cohort, you most certainly can't follow an evil god. Is it that hard to realise?
This topic has been discussed to death even the Paizo Gods have ruled on it... what more do you want?
Your home game... do whatever you want.. PFS, however is very clear on the subject.
LazarX |
Nah, the real problem comes in when you have to accomplish faction missions for Cheliax.
Let's see...Paladin code of conduct... lawful good...respect legitimate authority, act with honor, help those in need, punish those who harm or threaten innocents...
Nothing says you can't be a paladin of Asmodeous. Just make it clear that you are supporting the lawful side of Asmodeous, and trying to incite change from within to make it good. Could be fun.
When you are a Paladin devoted to a diety, you're following the god itself, the organisation around it is secondary. You can try to monkey around the Church of Asmodeous as much as you like but the god itself is evil with the big capital E. His evilness is NOT separate from his lawfulness but conjoined with it like the two snakes of Mercury's scepter.
LazarX |
Haven't found it yet, but if you check the Paizo Blog there's an old post by him which states that an archetypical Chelliaxian Paladin is a diehard worshiper of Aroden who refuses to give up on the idea that the slain diety will return some day.
The Wraith |
LazarX wrote:Can you post a link to the ruling?Dragonborn3 wrote:I've heard there is a section in the Council of Thieves adventure path about playing a Paladin of Asmodeus.Yes... and it's been ruled a MISPRINT. PFS however does not allow such a creature to exist.
THIS is the original discussion where Paladins of Asmodeus were discussed in PFS.
And THIS is the answer James Jacobs made back then.
(You can alse read another clarification from James Jacobs HERE, btw)
Hope this would help ;)
Magicdealer |
When you are a Paladin devoted to a diety, you're following the god itself, the organisation around it is secondary. You can try to monkey around the Church of Asmodeous as much as you like but the god itself is evil with the big capital E. His evilness is NOT separate from his lawfulness but conjoined with it like the two snakes of Mercury's scepter.
Interesting... can you tell me what page that appears on in the CRB?
About the closest thing I can find is some flavor text, which also allows for serving a god in an attempt to bring that god to the light.
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:
When you are a Paladin devoted to a diety, you're following the god itself, the organisation around it is secondary. You can try to monkey around the Church of Asmodeous as much as you like but the god itself is evil with the big capital E. His evilness is NOT separate from his lawfulness but conjoined with it like the two snakes of Mercury's scepter.Interesting... can you tell me what page that appears on in the CRB?
About the closest thing I can find is some flavor text, which also allows for serving a god in an attempt to bring that god to the light.
You don't join a god's religion in the same way some women marry their men to "reform" them. You either embrace Asmodeus in his Lawful Evil ways, or you embrace the opposition who seeks to bring him down.
It's not nearly the same as to say trying to reform a corrupted church of a good god. (i.e. the Chuch of Torm in whatever city he died in. the church itself was corrupted)
Caineach |
LazarX assumes that everyone in the game world knows absolutely what alignment every diety is and that there is no dispute about the gods. Not everyone plays with these assumptions. Personally, I do not run pathfinder society games, but I would allow a Paladin of Asmodeus. I would encourage you not to play one in pathfinder society games though, because not everyone thinks it is ok.
I like the idea that Asmodeus would encourage and promote Paladins. He is the deciever. If the god of deception cannot convince someone that their reputation is just a misunderstanding, why is he the god of deception? As for why he would want a Paladin, the answer is simple. They make him look good.
Paladins of Asmodeus are doomed people, but I see no reason you should not be able to play one.
seekerofshadowlight |
Quandary wrote:I BELIVE that you don´t actually have to worship Asmodeus at all to be a Hellknight...Yes but if you don't profess to be a worshipper of the Big A, your application is going to the bottom of the slow pile.
Not at all, the hellknights do not fallow a god or a devil. They fallow Order and emulate hell for that order. The godclaw worship a few gods and Paladins and clerics are among the Hellknights, even the top ranks of some orders. And those clerics do not all worship the big A, not at all. And none of those paladins worship him. So to say you must worship the big A to be a hellknight is simple untrue.
The big A may be the king of hell but he is not the pardon or master of the hellknights. He is just one more god, of man they drawl inspiration from.
Now as for paladins and the big A or any evil god. Well there is no need for the one step rule. You must be Lawful and Good and you must stick by the paladin code.
You can not worship a god and not fallow his teachings. You do not get to pick one small part of his teachings and worship him, while ignoring everything he is and what he stands for.
Every time you spread that gods name, every time you help spread and build his faith and every act you do in his names spreads evil.
As a paladin you can not knowingly aid or spread evil and you can't worship a god whose teachings are at odds with your aliment and your code. It really is that simple.
seekerofshadowlight |
LazarX assumes that everyone in the game world knows absolutely what alignment every diety is and that there is no dispute about the gods.
He is one of the big 20, it takes a DC10 knowledge check{which everyone can do} to know his basic stuff. Such as being the Ruler of Hell and him being master of lies and tricks, he is known to be a devil and evil. Even folks in the most backwater villages know of the big 20.
Clerics in pathfinder can talk to their gods, the gods directly overseee the faith. In a world where the churches can talk to the god they worship, were the gods really do send messengers, were the established faith was built on the gods very teachings. There is no room for splinter factions or major disputes that give rise to different teachings of the same faith as they simply send down a herald to fix the issue.
Magicdealer |
You don't join a god's religion in the same way some women marry their men to "reform" them. You either embrace Asmodeus in his Lawful Evil ways, or you embrace the opposition who seeks to bring him down.It's not nearly the same as to say trying to reform a corrupted church of a good god. (i.e. the Chuch of Torm in whatever city he died in. the church itself was corrupted)
Should I take that to mean that, no, you don't have a quote from the RULE BOOK about that concept? Which would then mean that it's NOT a RULE.
Sure, imply that in home games all you want. I've got no problem with campaign-specific rules. One dm I played with outlawed bards entirely. But, please, I am asking for the specific citation for the appearance of that rule in the CRB.
If it's not there, then it's not there. If it is, I would like to see it.
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:
You don't join a god's religion in the same way some women marry their men to "reform" them. You either embrace Asmodeus in his Lawful Evil ways, or you embrace the opposition who seeks to bring him down.It's not nearly the same as to say trying to reform a corrupted church of a good god. (i.e. the Chuch of Torm in whatever city he died in. the church itself was corrupted)
Should I take that to mean that, no, you don't have a quote from the RULE BOOK about that concept? Which would then mean that it's NOT a RULE.
Sure, imply that in home games all you want. I've got no problem with campaign-specific rules. One dm I played with outlawed bards entirely. But, please, I am asking for the specific citation for the appearance of that rule in the CRB.
If it's not there, then it's not there. If it is, I would like to see it.
Now we reach the ultimate height of absurdity. That one would argue that an evil god, not just any ordinary evil god, but one of the BIG Evils would sponsor paladins. BECAUSE THERE IS NO WRITTEN RULE THAT SAYS HE CAN NOT. No there is no rule, because no one with half a lick of literary or story sense would imagine there would be need for one!
One of the cornerstones of D+D, the reason that there IS an alignment system is the postulation that Law, Chaos, Good , Evil, are not subjective, arbitrary, whimsical values but absolutes. And that gods who embody those absolutes MUST by thier nature adhere to them more strictly than Paladins do lawful good. To do otherwise would be to act against thier nature and dilute the force of thier very being.
If we were talking about Amber, a White Wolf Storyeller game, or even Arcanis where the Gods have no alignment, this would not be an issue. We are however talking about D+D/Pathfinder and that makes all the difference.
Magicdealer |
Now we reach the ultimate height of absurdity. That one would argue that an evil god, not just any ordinary evil god, but one of the BIG Evils would sponsor paladins. BECAUSE THERE IS NO WRITTEN RULE THAT SAYS HE CAN NOT. No there is no rule, because no one with half a lick of literary or story sense would imagine there would be need for one!One of the cornerstones of D+D, the reason that there IS an alignment system is the postulation that Law, Chaos, Good , Evil, are not subjective, arbitrary, whimsical values but absolutes. And that gods who embody those absolutes MUST by thier nature adhere to them more strictly than Paladins do lawful good. To do otherwise would be to act against thier nature and dilute the force of thier very being.
If we were talking about Amber, a White Wolf Storyeller game, or even Arcanis where the Gods have no alignment, this would not be an issue. We are however talking about D+D/Pathfinder and that makes all the difference.
Yup, it's the height of absurdity to think that a paladin would respect, say, a lawful god that he was taught to worship as a child, and joined the ranks with the hopes of shifting the organization away from evil. Because no one tries to work from within the system for change...
Wait... no, that's actually a pretty interesting character concept. :p
And, actually, d&d can be either an objective or subjective morality game. It completely depends on the dm. As various posts about, oh, whether animate dead makes you evil or not make clear.
Also, I think you must have missed this in the chapter on alignment because:
"Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity-it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character.
So I don't see why one would keep trying to use it to restrict characters, instead of allowing it to add an interesting dimension to one. Especially when the rules don't back it up.
seekerofshadowlight |
Dude, a paladin must be both lawful and good. When you are devote to a god you fallow that gods teachings, which are at odds with good.
As for working from within..you fall. You chose to break your code, which prohibits you from helping evil.
Everyone knows the god is evil
Everyone knows he is a devil
Everyone knows he is the god of lies
Everyone knows he rules Hell
You are knowingly helping an evil faith and helping to spread it knowing those who join are damned to hell. You are spreading evil and actively helping evil.
The code outright forbids a paladin from doing what you are talking about. His AL stops him from being a devote follower of an evil good as his moral system is at odds with the faith.
You can't worship evil and be good, and you can't help spread evil and be a paladin.
Trainwreck |
From the CRB:
"...these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil."
"...paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities the serve."
So you're really going to argue that Asmodeus is a virtuous deity?
The OP clearly isn't looking to explore some character concept of changing Asmodeus' mind by serving him. He is just trying to put a character build together that has certain powers, and he's trying to get around a restriction of the class that he doesn't like.
As to Magicdealer's argument that you could "respect" Asmodeus' lawful aspect, while trying to change his evil aspect from within... it seems to me that you could certainly play a character that has this motivation, but that character would not be trying to embody the teachings of Asmodeus. That character would be (fruitlessly) trying to change Asmodeus.
You do see the difference between embodying a god's teachings and changing those teachings, right?
If anything, you could play this misguided character as a divine spellcaster who doesn't worship a specific god, but rather worships the concept of lawful goodness. Then, this character might actually be trying to get Asmodeus and his follows to accept those concepts. I think I remember reading somewhere that clerics can do this, but paladins have to serve an actual god, so that might limit your class choices when making this character.
wraithstrike |
The paladin in CoT IIRC did not know he was worshipping Asmodeus, but you can't willing serve an evil god as a paladin, and while it is a good story to have someone unwilling follow the bad guy we writers take liberties with rules, and willing doing something falls into a different light than when you don't know any better.
In short:If the paladin is convinced that he is following some good entity the story may work, but if he knows Asmodeus is the one trying to guide him he will rebuke(refuse to cooperate) him immediately.
seekerofshadowlight |
As to Magicdealer's argument that you could "respect" Asmodeus' lawful aspect, while trying to change his evil aspect from within... it seems to me that you could certainly play a character that has this motivation, but that character would not be trying to embody the teachings of Asmodeus. That character would be (fruitlessly) trying to change Asmodeus.You do see the difference between embodying a god's teachings and changing those teachings, right?
They are one and the same. He is Evil with the big E. He is king of lies, lord of all devils and ruler of Hell. The paladins code outright forbids him from worshiping such a god.
If anything, you could play this misguided character as a divine spellcaster who doesn't worship a specific god, but rather worships the concept of lawful goodness.
Nope In golarion clerics may not worship concepts. They must worship a god. You can't just worship the lawful side of things. You fallow a gods teachings or you do not.
TwilightKnight |
Nope In golarion clerics may not worship concepts. They must worship a god. You can't just worship the lawful side of things. You fallow a gods teachings or you do not.
I see nothing in Golarion lore restricting a cleric from following concepts rather than actual deities. However, this restriction does exist in society organized play.
seekerofshadowlight |
Its been stated a few times by James that you must have a god and thing in print to the counter was a mistake that slipped by. The 3.5 book does everything but say in bold letters you must have a god{it points out paladins do not have to have one} But they never say it, just hint at it heavily and I guess they thought it was clear enough.We have been told this will be more clear in the new book.
TwilightKnight |
Its been stated a few times by James that you must have a god and thing in print to the counter was a mistake that slipped by.
Sorry, I never saw this before. Does anyone know where this is?
paladins do not have to have one
But it just feels wrong that a paladin would not declare their allegiance to a deity (or philosophy). Somehow, it diminishes the paladin's "aura."
Zephyr_42 |
I was under the impression that paladins got their divine power directly from their god. How would an evil god be able to grant a paladin the ability to heal, or cast holy spells? Even if a paladin thought the god he was worshiping was good would that god be able to grant the paladin their powers? I don't think so and I think that would be a pretty big giveaway that you are worshiping an evil deity.
seekerofshadowlight |
Sorry, I never saw this before. Does anyone know where this is?
I have some of them saved on my head drive.lets see what I can find. It was on the topic of worshiping more then one god, but covers that clerics have to pick a god.
lordzack wrote:Why should every priest be devoted to one god? It makes no sense to me. Why can't a cleric pray to all the deities in the pantheon, calling upon whichever makes sense for whatever spell they're casting at the moment?Because that's how we define the role of the cleric class. A servant of a single specific deity who gains magical powers in return for his/her servitude.
As I mention in my previous post, characters who generally recieve magical powers for pantheistic worship do exist in Golarion: oracles (or arguably druids or even paladins or rangers). They're not clerics, though.
Same as for arcane spellcasters who don't learn spells and study them with spellbooks; those guys aren't wizards, and part of being a wizard is your spellbook.
Of course, feel free to change things how you want in your game. In Golarion, though, the official way clerics work is one deity.
Note that the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebok is NOT a "Golarion-only" book. But we do retain the flavor of "clerics worship a deity" for the same reason we retain the flavor of "wizards use spellbooks" or "barbarians have rage powers." It's all part of what defines the class as what it is.
And another
seekerofshadowlight wrote:It would be a setting thing. In Golarion the CS does not cover this , but there is one instance and that is the order of the Godclaw, They worship a some called heretical teaching that combines Asmodeus Abadar, Iomedae,
Irori, and Torag. They have the domains of Glory, Law, Protection, Strength, and War. Their favored weapon is the morningstar.This is the one and only example I know of, although many push for the four philosophy from the CS, but only one of those has more then one god,and one has no gods.And in any case those do not seem to grant domains or have clerics who are not clerics of a god.
You still need to pick a deity in Golarion in order to be able to pick your domains. Even if you're a member of the order of, say, the Godclaw. Note that there's more than clerics in that order.
And here
Here's a handy way to look at it from a strict rules perspective.
If something lists "granted domains," a cleric can worship it. We generally list granted domains only for deities; I'm not aware of having done so for things like philosophies.
Other divine classes either don't gain domains or get to pick from a set list of domains, and those classes CAN worship things like philosophies or pantheons or whatever.
seekerofshadowlight wrote:paladins do not have to have oneBut it just feels wrong that a paladin would not declare their allegiance to a deity (or philosophy). Somehow, it diminishes the paladin's "aura."
yeah I do not agree with that either, but paladins do not need to have a god in golarion. Many do and if they do they have to choose a god that works with their Al and the code.
They have to be one step. It does not say that, but all the gods in golarion who have paladins are LG,LN or NG. And it makes sense as you can not fallow a god and not live by his teachings and outlook, That is mere lipservice, which most gods gain from everyone.
but to worship that god as your god you need to be, well a follower of his faith. A paladin could respect say a CG god, but if he really worshiped that god he would be at odds with being LG and his code. As what a LG person finds acceptable and what a CG person finds acceptable are not anywhere near the same ballpark.
Magicdealer |
You can't spread evil, but you could certainly focus on the lawful aspect of a religion and spread law.
Everything quoted about "virtuous deities" ad hoc is flavor text. Flavor text is not equal to game mechanics.
Even so.
From the very bottom of that section:
"paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
As far as virtue specifically, many of the definitions of virtue would fit a lawful evil god including and not limited to a good or admirable property (law), effective force, conformity of ones life to moral and ethical principles *which can include both good and bad morals, ect.*
Mechanically speaking, when can a paladin lose their religious powers? "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses..."
Three items can result in loss of power.
1. Ceasing to be lawful good.
2. Failing to respect legitimate authority, failing to act with honor, failing to help those in need, or failing to punish those who arm or threaten innocents.
3. Willfully committing an evil act.
Since we can have non-evil clerics worshiping evil deities, we know that merely worshiping an evil deity is NOT committing an evil act. Being lawful provides the church with legitimate authority, and provides legal grounds to declare people guilty of crimes. Thus, if the church sends the paladin against someone, that person is by definition not an innocent.
Plenty of examples of evil, yet honorable enemies. There is nothing there that is violated by worshiping an evil deity :/
If a paladin is sent on a mission by his god or his church, and since both have legal and divine legitimate authority, then his missions don't inherently target innocents.
It is entirely possible that the church might order him to commit an evil act of some sort, but it is by no means a certainty. And there is no rule there that says he loses his powers by respectfully reporting that he cannot complete such a mission since it would violate his vows to his God and his church.
All the arguments seem to mostly stem from *I don't like the idea of Paladins for evil gods*. Which is fine, if we're in the opinions thread. This is the rules forum though. Flavor text does not define rules. The rules do not support the concept of a paladin serving a lawful evil god as impossible.
The rules for losing one's powers as a paladin have been outlined above, and it is clearly possible to stay within the bounds of those limitations while serving in an organization that is, perhaps, not as good as one would like.
Interesting note too. The rules don't even allow for a God to revoke the powers given to a Paladin unless the paladin violates one of the three rules above. No "pissed God off" clause :p
Caineach |
Caineach wrote:LazarX assumes that everyone in the game world knows absolutely what alignment every diety is and that there is no dispute about the gods.
He is one of the big 20, it takes a DC10 knowledge check{which everyone can do} to know his basic stuff. Such as being the Ruler of Hell and him being master of lies and tricks, he is known to be a devil and evil. Even folks in the most backwater villages know of the big 20.
Clerics in pathfinder can talk to their gods, the gods directly overseee the faith. In a world where the churches can talk to the god they worship, were the gods really do send messengers, were the established faith was built on the gods very teachings. There is no room for splinter factions or major disputes that give rise to different teachings of the same faith as they simply send down a herald to fix the issue.
Of course, no god of deception and lies would want to send out false truths about themselves through decieved followers. Yes, clerics can commune with their god. That does not mean their god wont tell 2 different followers different things, or that they have to interpret it the same way, or that the god's answers have to be clear. Gods do not necessarily want their words interpretted only one way by their followers. Half truths are the way gods, especially LE gods, opperate.
Edit:
How do the humans know that he is ruler of hell? All they have of him are stories, that may or may not be true. Mortals do not understand the workings of the outer planes, with only a few exceptions. How does he know that Iomede is not the true deciever, convincing everyone of her goodness while restricting people's freedoms. Acting as a bastion of light while slowly bringing oppression. Followers of Asmodeus are free to do what they want, but his church has been corrupted by those who would bring harm on others. Many of the upper level clerics are not clerics of Asmodeus at all, but are given power by the true deciever, Iomede, who has all but destroyed her opponent's reputation.
Raise someone with these beliefs, and suddently they will go forth proclaiming Asmodeus's good name. He will fight oppression of the Asmodeus faith and reduce stigmas against it. You can then send people in to convert them into true worship, and unbeknownst to the Paladin he is actually spreading the "lies" that he is trying to fight.
seekerofshadowlight |
You can't spread evil, but you could certainly focus on the lawful aspect of a religion and spread law.
No, you can not. You must be Lawful and Good not LN. You spread his name and his faith, that is aiding evil. You are helping him to gain faithful and a foothold on peoples souls, damning them to hell, that is aiding evil. Your code forbids the aiding of evil.Every deed you do in his name spreads evil.
His moral code is so far outside of Good you simply can not even take part in his holy rites and stay good.
Everything quoted about "virtuous deities" ad hoc is flavor text. Flavor text is not equal to game mechanics.
We are not talking about flavor text but the code. The Code must be obeyed, it can not be ignored. You must stay lawful and good. You keep ignoring the Good part. paladins are Not LN, they do not uphold the law at all costs.
Since we can have non-evil clerics worshiping evil deities, we know that merely worshiping an evil deity is NOT committing an evil act. Being lawful provides the church with legitimate authority, and provides legal grounds to declare people guilty of crimes. Thus, if the church sends the paladin against someone, that person is by definition not an innocent.
But they are not good, you can not be good and worship evil. The moral code you fallow as an evil worshiper puts you out of the realm of good. They also do not have a code forbidding the aid of evil. There is a huge difference between bringing in a lawbreaker who committed a real crime and bringing in someone who the church decided needs to be soulbound to hell.
Paladins are not judge dread.
What it comes down to is you are wanting a LN paladin, you can not be a follower of a god and then not use his teachings.
Asmodeus is Not The god of law. That is a game mechanic domain he grants, law is not his portfolio. He is the god of tyranny, slavery, pride, and contracts. Not Law, he embodies tyranny,pride and slavery, order by force, might makes right, not justice not just laws.
If tyranny that is what your paladin looks to as just laws then he is not a paladin.
How do the humans know that he is ruler of hell? All they have of him are stories, that may or may not be true. Mortals do not understand the workings of the outer planes, with only a few exceptions
How do we know what heaven and hell is? People know what the after life is in vague terms, they know you are judged at death, they know what happens to people who have no faith in gods.
They like us do not know what goes on once we die, but unlike us gods do talk with clerics, they do in fact know. The common folks do not know details but they know.
He is one of the big 20, he has been around before the age of darkness, he has been weaved into the tells of creation and is known in every country. He is known to have bound the rough beast, he is known to be the ruler of hell and lord of tyranny.
The big 20 in Golarion are as well known as Christianity is in America. people may not know the bible or have ever read it, but they know who god, Jesus, the devil are. They know what demons and angles are.
He is far to well known to hide. And why would he hide? His is one of the big 20, he is a major god, he has a powerful nation that worships him he is spoken of and known though out the lands, He is not some minor devil tricking mortals.
He is Asmodeus, king of hell, major god with more power and worshippers then people can comprehend.He has no need to hide who is is or what he is.
Caineach |
How do we know what heaven and hell is? People know what the after life is in vague terms, they know you are judged at death, they know what happens to people who have no faith in gods.
They like us do not know what goes on once we die, but unlike us gods do talk with clerics, they do in fact know. The common folks do not know details but they know.
He is one of the big 20, he has been around before the age of darkness, he has been weaved into the tells of creation and is known in every country. He is known to have bound the rough beast, he is known to be the ruler of hell and lord of tyranny.
The big 20 in Golarion are as well known as Christianity is in America. people may not know the bible or have ever read it, but they know who god, Jesus, the devil are. They know what demons and angles are.
He is far to well known to hide. And why would he hide? His is one of the big 20, he is a major god, he has a powerful nation that worships him he is spoken of and known though out the lands, He is not some minor devil tricking mortals.
He is Asmodeus, king of hell, major god with more power and worshippers then people can comprehend.He has no need to hide who is is or what he is.
And how do they know? Because someone else said so. Why should you believe that person, and not the god talking dirrectly to you himself? He doesn't need to be evil to be lord of hell (and he is damn good at convincing you of this seeing how he is the GOD OF LIES). Its common in fantasy tropes for the lord of hell to want to reform the place or be keeping it in check.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
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Clerics have to worship a specific deity, and their alignment must be within 1 step of that deity.
Paladins do not have this restriction. They can worship whoever they want. But they DO have to stay lawful good, which means if they worship a deity other than lawful good, lawful neutral (focusing on the law part of things), or neutral good (focusing on the good part of things), they'll either loose their paladinhood by drifting away from lawful good because of one of two reasons:
1) By honoring their deity and worshiping it in a way that deity requires, they'll be committing non good AND non lawful acts, or:
2) By ignoring their deity's teachings and not really worshiping it in the way that deity requires, they're basically blaspheming or being heretics and that's decidedly un-lawful behavior, which means their alignment drifts toward chaotic and they lose their paladinhood.
Therefore, a paladin of Asmodeus won't stay a worshiper of Asmodeus for long at all if he wants to keep his paladin powers, or he won't stay a paladin long if he wants to keep on worshiping Asmodeus.
Zephyr_42 |
I don't think a paladin who worships an evil god can be good but he can think he is good. I think a paladin who has twisted enough logic to think that Asmodeus is a worthy god for a good character to worship would have some pretty twisted ideas about what "good" is. For example a paladin can look at crime rates in a city and see that most crime happens in the slums. next they can come up with the idea that to get rid of crime get rid of the slums! A good paladin might do this by seeking an audience with the ruler of the city to increase the amount of guards patrolling the slums, or try to set up soup kitchens or some other way to increase the standard of living and thus reduce crime. A paladin who worships Asmodeus on the other hand would have extremely twisted logic and think, "people who commit crimes live in slums, if we get rid of the slums and the people living in them we will reduce crime." the allegedly good paladin could than set fire to the slums and kill everyone who tries to escape, it's all for the greater good right?
I do think that this character would be a really interesting character to play or have as an npc, but he would not be a paladin. He could think he is one and he could think he is doing everything for the greater good but he would commit evil acts and thus he would be evil. This is a great ant-paladin, he has fallen but doesn't even realize it his crusade for good ends up helping evil.
That was a bit of a tangent but what I am trying to say is that paladins are a class built around following their god and their beliefs. The paladin should know the teachings of a god and what that god stands for before they start worshiping. If a paladin thinks a god of tyranny and slavery is worthy of worship than they should not be good.
edit: ninja'd twice D: and one of them was James. so you can safely ignore my post now.