This is on my to-do for this weekend, but since you started I will ask for a little input.
Rules for monsters with class are a little different in PF, and I think the simplicity of this is a good thing. Roughly you will pick a monster from a CR category and add X levels to it.
My question is, is there a particular CR or two that everyone wants to play?
I have my ideas, but want everyone to get the most out of it. Not everyone wants to play a grognard blue drake right :) Wow two weeks is all that is left?
*grin*
You may want to keep what you want to play to yourself for now, it is a competition for the Frost Queen's new champion after all :)
I would think CR 10-12 is likely right in the sweet spot. Are we treating these as PCs with monster races (thus limited to only levels in classes, CR=to monster CR + Class Levels -1), or are we monsters with class levels (thus allowing various template advancement options)?
I plan to keep it as simple as possible my first year, but hope I can make this a regular thing. Monsters with classes will be the route I go. Everyone will play a monster of the same CR level and add standard class levels to finish it out.
I will wait until tomorrow (Wednesday) for others to post a preference in monster CRs and post official stuff on Thursday.
And, just in case you were thirsty:
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I'd love to play a Solar...
Too much?
Fine then...I can accommodate.
Astral Deva is all I require.
No, I agree with Laughing Goblin.
10-12 is my sweet spot for pick-up games as well. You can usually take a little bit of a beating and have some cool class abilities by then.
Curiagh,
Apart from stating our level preferences, is there anything that we can do as the players to help you out?
QGJ
I'd love to play a Solar...
Too much?
Fine then...I can accommodate.
Astral Deva is all I require.
No, I agree with Laughing Goblin.
10-12 is my sweet spot for pick-up games as well. You can usually take a little bit of a beating and have some cool class abilities by then.
Curiagh,
Apart from stating our level preferences, is there anything that we can do as the players to help you out?
QGJ
Thanks Qui-Gon Jesse--spoken like a true superstar... err Jedi... err Solar Commander.... I appreciate the offer. I do have a few requests.
If you have a bestiary, please bring it.
If you do not, please let me know so I can make a couple of cheat sheets for you.
If you have a mini please bring it, but I have lots so it is not necessary. (I just like to see other's minis :)
If you have excitement, please bring it. O:)
I leave one week from tomorrow. After near misses on the first two, I am excited to actually make this PaizoKon. hope you are too.
I have the PDF. Which pages should I print out as cheat sheets?
Excitement! *checked*
Woot!
Your monster's entry page. Maybe the monster feats if you are using any.
Qui-gonn Jesse: yes it will help, but if it is inconvenient do not worry about it.
The troll looked at the severed pieces of corpses around him. None seemed like they were juvenating into the former kobolds, ogres, and.... He scratched his head, not sure what to even call that scaly thing.
"Corupa?" the troll asked looking at the runes etched into his blade.
"Yes," the dwarf answered. "Every graduate of Fin's Military Academy gets their name inscribed on their blade." With a squinty glare the smith added in his native tongue, "no matter how smelly and stupid they are."
The troll swung the massive blade in an arc of grace unbelievable for so much iron. His muscles pulled taught, making it look easy.
The little creature could not resist Corupa’s charge and flew to the ground. It’s blood beat him down though, the troll having impaled the creature even as it fell.
Corupa looked at the body below him with a sneer, “Fools don’t never ‘spects that from trollfolk.” He laughed and blew the ice from the tip of his finger.
"Corupa?" the troll asked looking at the runes etched into his blade.
"Yes," the dwarf answered. "Every graduate of Fin's Military Academy gets their name inscribed on their blade." With another squinty glare he added in his native tongue, "My Beard, yer a daft one. I already said that once!"
The troll stepped through the arch to the torchlight beyond. A multitude of forms stood in the shadows, each one eyeing the rest. He grinned and lifted his blade eager to collect some of those eyes for himself.
Winning matches will determine who your next victim *ahem* opponent will be in this slightly modified Swiss tournament.
The troll scratched his head, finally realizing he indeed understood the smith’s native tongue.
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Curaigh, could I get your email, or have you email me (see spoiler)? I have some specific questions for you, and as they will reveal specifics of my character, and per your previous comments that would possibly be bad, I was hoping to take the questions offline.
Thanks!
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I'm always late to the party with these things and my scheduling process has been all kinds of botched, but I absolutely want to play this event if I can, now that I understand it better. The schedule says there are 7 people signed up, but the event can hold 10. Is there a way to call dibs on one of those spots? I have a character idea already, and will be putting it to paper over the next day or two. I can be reached by email at justify.the@means.org, but again I'd really, really like to play this, and bring it back up to an even number!
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Curaigh, could I get your email, or have you email me (see spoiler)? I have some specific questions for you, and as they will reveal specifics of my character, and per your previous comments that would possibly be bad, I was hoping to take the questions offline.
Actually, I think I can phrase them to be generic enough for board consumption(I'll use examples of monsters too high or low CR to avoid being too specific to a certain concept/build).
* Are we limited to the feats and skills are predetermined by the monster stat blocks in the Bestiary?
I.E. If I was to play a Lamia, would I HAVE to take Dodge, Great Fort, Iron Will, Mobility, & Spring Attack? Or could I select a number of feats, as outlined in the feats column of the "Statistics Summary" table in the Monster Creation section?
* What about alignment modifications? Are all Bugbears stuck being CE, or is there the possibility of the rare Bugbear Paladin?
* Many monster have natural attack forms (claw, claw, bite, rend, etc.). You mention a masterwork weapon as starting equipment, would this change at all if we decide to use our racial natural weapons instead?
* Are additional templates allowed? Could we have a half-celestial Aasimar that counts as a CR 2?What about advancement templates, like a Feindish Salamandar counting as a CR 7? You mention no dragons, if templates are allowed, would the half-dragon template fall into this category?
* You mention choosing a standard class, and adding those levels, does that mean that we should avoid multi-classing and prestige classes?
* I assume we are NOT supposed to add the additional stats as outlined in the Add Class Levels section (quoted below for reference). Could you confirm this?
Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities.
I think that should just about cover it. I'm really looking forward to this game, it should be a blast!!!
My general answer will be play what will be fun. First fun for you. Second fun for everyone (first round of March Madness is NOT fun imho :)
For the specifics.
Do we have to be medium sized or can we also be small or large? Would being any size other than medium make using the sword difficult?
Size is not an issue for the winner.
Curaigh, could I get your email, or have you email me (see spoiler)? I have some specific questions for you, and as they will reveal specifics of my character, and per your previous comments that would possibly be bad, I was hoping to take the questions offline.
Thanks!
** spoiler omitted **
scott a janke at gmail dot com. please put bestiary bash, paizocon or BB in the subject. Please know others may have the same question & I will likely post answers if I can remove spoilers. :)
I'm always late to the party with these things and my scheduling process has been all kinds of botched, but I absolutely want to play this event if I can, now that I understand it better. The schedule says there are 7 people signed up, but the event can hold 10....
Aye Benn Roe is first on the list (provided my keeping a list does not mess up Paizo staff.
my response in bold
Actually, I think I can phrase them to be generic enough for board consumption(I'll use examples of monsters too high or low CR to avoid being too specific to a certain concept/build).* Are we limited to the feats and skills are predetermined by the monster stat blocks in the Bestiary?
I.E. If I was to play a Lamia, would I HAVE to take Dodge, Great Fort, Iron Will, Mobility, & Spring Attack? Or could I select a number of feats, as outlined in the feats column of the "Statistics Summary" table in the Monster Creation section?
Good Question. I had thought to keep it simple and keep the monster's general stats, but if you want to trade one or two GENERAL feats for other GENERAL that is ok. In the above example you could swap iron will for wind stance, but not for elemental channel or awesome blow.
* What about alignment modifications? Are all Bugbears stuck being CE, or is there the possibility of the rare Bugbear Paladin?[/b] alignment is fluid. Or all potential Frost Knights have the alignment: frosty coldness.* Many monster have natural attack forms (claw, claw, bite, rend, etc.). You mention a masterwork weapon as starting equipment, would this change at all if we decide to use our racial natural weapons instead? you will still have a masterwork weapon, but may choose not to use it. In the past these monsters have brought ranged weapons so they could use their NA when it got to melee.
* Are additional templates allowed? Could we have a half-celestial Aasimar that counts as a CR 2?What about advancement templates, like a Feindish Salamandar counting as a CR 7? You mention no dragons, if templates are allowed, would the half-dragon template fall into this category?For the sake of simplicity (first time under PF) templates will be too complicated to adjudicate. (see how i say no without using the 'n' word *grin*
* You mention choosing a standard class, and adding those levels, does that mean that we should avoid multi-classing and prestige classes?
Again for the sake of simplicity, I would avoid multi-classing. In future incarnations I will probably require 1 level of a certain class (cleric with the cold domain for example). It is unlikely PC pre-requisites will be met early enough to risk one level of switching. Also these will be a couple of short matches so you will likely not get a chance to use all those neat tricks you think you will gain.
* I assume we are NOT supposed to add the additional stats as outlined in the Add Class Levels section (quoted below for reference). Could you...
ok reply truncated there. You are correct. We will make the two changes to abilities as outlined above. The changes you reference are trying to make balance in a campaign, and we are only talking about a few (resetting) encounters.
If I wasn't attending the AP seminar, I'd be interested in this. Everyone have fun!
Stop by and check us out. :)
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Aye Benn Roe is first on the list (provided my keeping a list does not mess up Paizo staff.
Awesome! I appreciate it, and I'm excited. I've got at least four different ideas I'm toying around with. I had many of the same questions already posted above, but additionally:
1) Hit points will be rolled at the event, but everything else should be laid out and prepared in advance, right?
2) How do we handle monster skills? It's usually not too difficult to work in reverse and figure out where each monster's skill ranks went? Should we leave them there, or can we move them around? I know this is similar to the earlier question about feats, but I feel like the same logic isn't applicable.
3) Normal multi-classing rules for saving throws apply, right? So, if our monster choice normally has a +6 Will save, adding one level of wizard makes it a +8, right? We don't have to use prestige class saving throw progressions, right?
4) Creatures with "poison use" whose stat-blocks include poison come equipped as such, right? Or would such poison need to be purchased, making it essentially off limits?
5) I guess I'm not 100% clear on the mechanics of this event. Are we actually fighting each other in a tournament, or are we competing against each other in challenges to find the sword? Either way, if our character has 1/day type powers, it's assumed that each round is a new day, right? I know you said spells reset, etc., but presumably 1/day powers are usable again too? What about powers with frequencies more rare than 1/day? I don't know for sure that any of the available monsters have any such powers, but I know a lot of genies, etc., have 1/week or 1/year powers, so I'm sure it's possible.
6) There's at least one creature, and I guess I might as well state explicitly that it's the drow noble, who is in the right range for our CR choices as per its stats in the Bestiary, but who has no racial hit dice of its own. This creates a weird complication. If we choose that creature, are we bound to use its three levels of cleric, plus our normal seven class levels (meaning the possibility of playing a 10th-level cleric has just opened up), or should we ignore those levels and just use the monster stats with seven levels (meaning a comparatively weak character), or are such creatures simply off limits for this event?
Thanks again!
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Aye Benn Roe is first on the list (provided my keeping a list does not mess up Paizo staff.Awesome! I appreciate it, and I'm excited. I've got at least four different ideas I'm toying around with. I had many of the same questions already posted above, but additionally:
3) Normal multi-classing rules for saving throws apply, right? So, if our monster choice normally has a +6 Will save, adding one level of wizard makes it a +8, right? We don't have to use prestige class saving throw progressions, right?
6) There's at least one creature, and I guess I might as well state explicitly that it's the drow noble, who is in the right range for our CR choices as per its stats in the Bestiary, but who has no racial hit dice of its own. This creates a weird complication. If we choose that creature, are we bound...
We were asked to avoid multi-classing. Sad but true.
The Drow Noble is a CR 3 creature so you would only be adding seven class levels to it as per the rules that were stated in the spoilers of Curaigh's post on Friday, 02:48.
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We were asked to avoid multi-classing. Sad but true.
No, I'm sorry. You misunderstood what I was asking. I know we can't multi-class with classes, but we're necessarily multi-classing because we're each combining one class and one monstrous race, complete with its own Hit Dice and the benefits therein. We're still combining two sets of saving throw progressions, so I was curious if we should be expected to convert class saving throw progressions to the prestige equivalent, or if just we add progressions together (between our single class and our race) a'la multi-classing.
The Drow Noble is a CR 3 creature so you would only be adding seven class levels to it as per the rules that were stated in the spoilers of Curaigh's post on Friday, 02:48.
But the CR 3 drow noble has three levels of cleric already built into its stats. Surely, a drow noble without those levels isn't a CR 3 monster, is it? That's why I'm asking for clarification. I understand the rules, but this case has not been covered by them.
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No, I'm sorry. You misunderstood what I was asking. I know we can't multi-class with classes, but we're necessarily multi-classing because we're each combining one class and one monstrous race, complete with its own Hit Dice and the benefits therein. We're still combining two sets of saving throw progressions, so I was curious if we should be expected to convert class saving throw progressions to the prestige equivalent, or if just we add progressions together (between our single class and our race) a'la multi-classing.
I can't speak for Curaigh, but the RAW are pretty clear that a monster's hit dice grant a specific BAB and save progression based on the creature's type. If that monster were to then acquire character levels, the BAB and save progression of any of those class levels would be added to the BAB and save progression from it's racial hit dice.
The Drow Noble is a CR 3 creature so you would only be adding seven class levels to it as per the rules that were stated in the spoilers of Curaigh's post on Friday, 02:48.But the CR 3 drow noble has three levels of cleric already built into its stats. Surely, a drow noble without those levels isn't a CR 3 monster, is it? That's why I'm asking for clarification. I understand the rules, but this case has not been covered by them.
Again, up to the GM, but I completely disagree that the Drow Noble is a CR3 creature. It's a CR 1 creature, just like an Aasimar, Teifling, Dwarf or Human. It's just an example of a very common class build in Drow culture. A CR3 version is presented, but I don't think you could argue that it's a CR3 creature any more then you could argue Humans are CR2 because Human guards with 2 levels of Fighter are a common example of Human's throughout the world.
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I can't speak for Curaigh, but the RAW are pretty clear that a monster's hit dice grant a specific BAB and save progression based on the creature's type. If that monster were to then acquire character levels, the BAB and save progression of any of those class levels would be added to the BAB and save progression from it's racial hit dice.
I know those are the rules as written! (: That's why I'm asking about this. Paizo gave prestige classes brand new save progressions because multi-classing naturally leads to crazy-good saving throws for no explainable reason. The intent of those new progressions was to actually progress the saves of the base class, rather than accelerate them. Class levels on monsters isn't something that happens terribly often in the character creation world (at least not as far as the rules will admit), so I wondered if there was any sort of modification to the rules for this particular event that brought the base classes in line with prestige classes in terms of modifying the rules for intent. I assume there isn't, but I wanted to be sure. It's a rules loophole that allows for stacking saves, and it's a loophole that Paizo attacked specifically with the new prestige class progressions, though they never addressed it in its other applications (multi-classing with base classes or adding levels to monsters). Just wondered if there were any weird rules for this event.
Again, up to the GM, but I completely disagree that the Drow Noble is a CR3 creature. It's a CR 1 creature, just like an Aasimar, Teifling, Dwarf or Human. It's just an example of a very common class build in Drow culture. A CR3 version is presented, but I don't think you could argue that it's a CR3 creature any more then you could argue Humans are CR2 because Human guards with 2 levels of Fighter are a common example of Human's throughout the world.
I totally agree! That's why I wanted to get a clear ruling from the GM. The bestiary lists the drow noble as CR 3 in its entry and in the "Monsters by CR" table in the back, so technically it applies, but it doesn't seem like it should be allowed for this and certainly isn't clear how to use it if it is allowed for this.
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I know those are the rules as written! (: That's why I'm asking about this. Paizo gave prestige classes brand new save progressions because multi-classing naturally leads to crazy-good saving throws for no explainable reason. The intent of those new progressions was to actually progress the saves of the base class, rather than accelerate them. Class levels on monsters isn't something that happens terribly often in the character creation world (at least not as far as the rules will admit), so I wondered if there was any sort of modification to the rules for this particular event that brought the base classes in line with prestige classes in terms of modifying the rules for intent. I assume there isn't, but I wanted to be sure. It's a rules loophole that allows for stacking saves, and it's a loophole that Paizo attacked specifically with the new prestige class progressions, though they never addressed it in its other applications (multi-classing with base classes or adding levels to monsters). Just wondered if there were any weird rules for this event.
I believe the new PrC save progression was less about preventing high save stacking, and more about limiting the appeal of PrCs. Under the previous 3.5 rules, prestige classes were not only the norm for most characters, but not having one actually put your character behind the power curve. Pathfinder rules seem to instead provide PrCs as a way to acquire more character options at the cost of overall character power (often providing limited progression in two classes rather then direct progression in one). Part of that change in philosophy seems to be reducing the save progressions of PrCs to make staying in the core classes more appealing.
Aye Benn Roe is first on the list (provided my keeping a list does not mess up Paizo staff.Awesome! I appreciate it, and I'm excited. I've got at least four different ideas I'm toying around with. I had many of the same questions already posted above, but additionally:
1) Hit points will be rolled at the event, but everything else should be laid out and prepared in advance, right? we will have some time to square away the details. The more you have prepared the more we will have to play, but not everyone is reading the board so any step ahead is... well a step ahead... :)
2) How do we handle monster skills? ...for simplicity take the skills right from the monster, then add as the class. If you want to move a few things around OK, but skills ranked above a 10 level character could be unbalanced.
3) Normal multi-classing rules for saving throws apply, right? So, if our monster choice normally has a +6 Will save, adding one level of wizard makes it a +8, right? We don't have to use prestige class saving throw progressions, right?right, simply stack the two. I was unaware of the PrC change, but you can choose a class to cover a perceived weakness in saves, or go for the uber save. (once had a rogue mage who loved to drop fireballs centered on himself :)
4) Creatures with "poison use" whose stat-blocks include poison come equipped as such, right? Or would such poison need to be purchased, making it essentially off limits?In the past I have restricted poison, but not this time. If it is part of a natural attack, having it is OK. If not natural I will need to take a closer look at the specifics.
5) I guess I'm not 100% clear on the mechanics of this event. Are we actually fighting each other in a tournament, this one and it's assumed that each round is a new day, right? right I know you said spells reset, etc., but presumably 1/day powers are usable again too? What about powers with frequencies more rare than 1/day? hopefully, the CR choice removed those. If not please remember this should be as fun for your opponent as it is for you. :)
6) There's at least one creature, and I guess I might as well state explicitly that it's the drow noble, ...
again response truncated: drow noble will be at a disadvantage as you would not add anything the monster stats do not already include, including those cleric levels, which as BR pointed out is a CR 1 with class levels.
If all else fails, choose the side of fun (which means balanced) for all those involved. :)
Safe travels all. See you in a few.
One last question (I think), but we're still adding a point to an ability score every four class levels, right?
Aye, but that will not apply for a CR 7 critter. :)
It should, right? We get 5 to 7 class levels, right? So theoretically everybody should get a single stat bump with their fourth class level. I'm not building these wrong, am I? You said CR 3 to 5 monster with 5 to 7 class levels for a total CR 10/10th-level character.
Aye, my bad. I was thinking level 7, not CR 7 and meant 'only' instead of 'not'.
Yes, at level 4, which everyone will get in classes, increases an ability.
I am afk until I get back from the PaizoCon, looking forward to seeing everyone!
So how did it go? I loved reading the concept about this game...
