PFS #41 - The Devil We Know Part III: Crypt of Fools [Spoilers]


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Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm going to be running #41 this coming Wednesday, and it looks as if a few players may have fallen into a trap. They have played #29 and #30, but the PCs they used are now 8th level and therefore ineligible to play the next two parts in this series. They have a lower-level PC, but since a player can only play a scenario once, that PC is ineligible to play #41 and #48 (Rules of the Swift).

Now that we know that "The Devil We Know" series is all Tier 1-7, I would recommend that a sentence be added to Parts I and II warning GMs of this.

BrOp


Yeah, this is a foreseen problem but unfortunately one we couldn't fix. Beginning with the next season, all linked non-Tier 12 arcs will occur either in the same month or in concurrent months to lesson the possibility of this happening.

For now, those folks who are above the tier, if they so choose, can play down and finish the story. This isn't what we always want to see, but the Play Play Play rule necessitates that if this is a story they *want* to finish, we shouldn't stop them from finishing it. Just keep in mind the rewards will be slightly less than what they should get for their level. (At 8th level, though, the difference isn't too bad.)

The Exchange 5/5

Just to clarify your answer Josh, a player who has completed PFS#29 and #30 with Character A can not play PFS#41 with Character B? They must use Character A even if the character is out of tier, and cannot bring in a new character? I realize that you can't foresee every wrinkle in the release schedule. However, I am reading into this a lot and I expect that you'll set me straight *real quick*.


You cannot play parts 3 or 4 of the Devil We Know series with any character that has not completed parts 1 and 2. :-)

Parts 1 & 2 can be played in any order but 3 and 4 must be played concurrently and must be played after 1 & 2. So you could, in effect, with the same character, play this series as either 1/2/3/4 or 2/1/3/4.

This is something new to the Society and is the harbinger for more linked "must be played in order" scenarios in the future.

The Exchange 5/5

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

You cannot play parts 3 or 4 of the Devil We Know series with any character that has not completed parts 1 and 2. :-)

Parts 1 & 2 can be played in any order but 3 and 4 must be played concurrently and must be played after 1 & 2. So you could, in effect, with the same character, play this series as either 1/2/3/4 or 2/1/3/4.

This is something new to the Society and is the harbinger for more linked "must be played in order" scenarios in the future.

LOL, I think you have kicked over a hornet's nest Josh. What about players who played #29 with one PC and #30 with a different one? And all the poor sots who died in #29 at GenCon, then made new characters for #30? I'm not upset, I'm just thinking about the headache you've set yourself up for ;)


Meh.

The "Play Play Play" rule trumps all rules. Do what you need to do to keep your local players happy and playing. That's what matters the most.

For the future series', we'll be much, much more clear about how/when they can be played and by whom.

The Exchange 5/5

Superb! Is there anything that "Play Play Play" can't solve?!


Shall we attempt to apply "Play Play Play" to the challenges of a manned mission to Mars?

The Exchange 5/5

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Shall we attempt to apply "Play Play Play" to the challenges of a manned mission to Mars?

As long as NASA is cool with a TAK (total astronaut kill), LOL...


Doug Doug wrote:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Shall we attempt to apply "Play Play Play" to the challenges of a manned mission to Mars?
As long as NASA is cool with a TAK (total astronaut kill), LOL...

That's only if I write the scenario.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Thanks for the update, Josh. I'll post on Thursday how things went.

Dark Archive 1/5

Branding Opportunity wrote:
I'll post on Thursday how things went.

Happy Norman Rockwell's birthday to you.

I saw the players scheduled for the table; we will trounce you in each of your well prepared encounters Alex.

The Exchange 5/5

Josh, can you add a [SPOILERS] tag to this thread? It started out with a question that potential players need to get clarification on. If the GMs are going to share spoiler info I wouldn't want a player wandering down here by mistake.

We played this last night. The GM who ran it received the scenario on Monday and did his best to be prepared to run it, but time dragged out and he ended up calling the game. I hate when that happens, but lucky for me my character died so it wasn't like I missed out.

We played Tier 3-4 with six players. Four of us were 1st level, one 2nd and one 3rd. Our APL was 2.5 and we chose to play up. We've played down in similar circumstances and had no fun cakewalking the encounters. The reason my 1st level PC died was a crit from a heavy flail, so it wasn't like the fights were overpowering or anything. I usually play support characters so when I play a combat role I tend to go all out. It was karma, 'cause I was beating up gnomes earlier in the game.

To begin with,

Spoiler:
I liked this one. It gets the Doug Doug seal of Approval. The maps were complicated but really detailed and I look forward to drawing them out. The plot was simple but the pathway through the scenario was very colorful. I really appreciated the mad painter and the way the clues were handled.

The first combat was appropriate. We took the cleric alive, tied her up and then forgot about her in our rush to go find the landmarks once we figured out what our objective was. We never found out what she knew. Now here's my gripe about the scenario: the player handouts need to be on their own page in the PDF. It's silly to expect the GM to mangle the scenario by cutting off half the pages, and it's wasteful to print out extras. Also, how are the players supposed to make sense of the handouts? Maybe our GM didn't run the scenario quite right, but it isn't reasonable to expect the players were going to figure out that the shapes on the handouts were city landmarks. Now if we were given a map of the city, we might make the connection. I plan on doing this for the players when uncleden runs his gameday on the 14th of this month.

Aside from this snafu I think the handouts and the mechanic behind them were clever and appropriate. I liked the musical one, but although we had a bard in that party he had no instrument. No big deal, we just hired a steet performer to do the job. The next fight was with the derro and their mite slaves. The fight ate up a lot of time, but it was exciting. There were a lot of PCs (and weapons) dropping, but we triumphed. The GM skipped the otyugh optional encounter (but I love this monster being included) and we faced the cult thugs next. It was another tough fight with my rogue getting the aforementioned braining. The climactic fight at the end was summed up by the GM due to the late hour, but I look forward to giving my players the full treatment in a week's time.

I will share more thoughts on this scenario after I give it a read-through and run some players through it.

The Exchange 5/5

And another thing...

Spoiler:

This isn't so much a spoiler as a bunch of whining, but here goes:

I was writing my review of this scenario and I was trying to think about how it was different from Parts 1 and 2 insofar as why they had to be played first. Then I remembered, oh yeah, Dalirio Teppish was raised as a ghoul. I think the problem with this series is that the villains are forgettable. Why do we really care about Dalirio, his brother or the Cult of Nature's Cataclysm? They are really like underdogs, struggling to get something going with a bunch of rejects from the Taldan establishment. They can't even afford good equipment. They sit around basements and sewers and their only companions are rats, mites and other vermin. Then the Pathfinder Society comes in like a bully at the beach and kicks over their sandcastle. It's not really sporting. I guess my point is, it would be more motivational if the PCs actually had a reason to dislike Teppish and his cultists. Eric Mona had asked last month about memorable villains. The villains in The Devil We Know aren't very memorable, and that is a disappointment.

Also, I am not sure where the disfavor for Swift Prison comes in because we got through that part so quickly. But looking at the penalty it seems entirely too light. What's wrong with putting some fear into the PCs? If they are so blatant to go into a prison and misbehave, they should get a warning then the hammer should come down. I'd have been happier with a -10 to any charisma-based check with the prison guards. Even better would have been a banishment, forcing the player to find some alternate means of entering the prison in the follow-up scenario.

Take this criticism for what it's worth. I complain because I have high expectations and I want to see this campaign to meet its potential. I also realize that it is much easier to tear down than to build. This was not a bad scenario, I look forward to running my players through it. I just think it has room for improvement.


Thanks Doug Doug for the feedback. Any feedback (good or bad) is appreciated, and I try to learn from it.

Spoiler:
a map of Cassomir is included to help with the symbols and the bard did not need an instrument, he could of hummed the tune, in fact anyone could have....

Thanks again Doug Doug, especially for being passionate about the Pathfinder Society and putting the time and dedication towards running events.
Larcifer (Larry)


Doug Doug wrote:
Josh, can you add a ** spoiler omitted **...

Added the spoiler tag.

About your handouts v. maps concern...

Spoiler:
The scenarios specifically says, "Clever PCs might connect the symbols to three locations in Cassomir by looking at a map of the city." Which was my way of suggesting to the GM that he give the players a handout of the map of Old Cassomir that's in the scenario. Otherwise, how did you triangulate the locations to find the door to the Crypt without a map?

The Exchange 5/5

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Doug Doug wrote:
Josh, can you add a ** spoiler omitted **...

Added the spoiler tag.

About your handouts v. maps concern...

** spoiler omitted **

The GM handed us the three clues and we tried to make sense of them. We stacked them atop each other and looked at them through a light. The GM said there wasn't a way in-character that we might ever figure it out. Then he gave us the page with the map on it, that also conveniently has a legend on it indicating the location of the Crypt of Fools. Sort of takes the challenge out of it. Yes, the GM can lift an image of the map out of the PDF without the legend on it, but that takes an additional printing step that some GMs won't think to do. There were probably some directions our GM missed in the scenario, I am not sure if the map of the city was supposed to be acquired at the Hall of Wonders (any relation to the Galley of Wonders?) or if there was a knowledge (local) check to be made.


It's more like, you've spent a significant amount of time in the city and would know the city's landmarks. Giving the map to the players isn't a handout, so much as a "here's what Old Cassomir looks like."

As for the legend ... he could've blacked it out or cut it off. The map tags, in and of themselves, aren't that helpful without the legend.

I can see your point, though, and putting a tagless map in there would've been a good idea and is something for me to consider going forward.

Sczarni 4/5

Doug Doug wrote:
Yes, the GM can lift an image of the map out of the PDF without the legend on it, but that takes an additional printing step that some GMs won't think to do.

The first thing I thought of when I read the senario was

Spoiler:
Oh look, they actually thought of a way for me to use the map of cassomir from the cities of Golarion map folio as more than just wall decoration... I like it! and I pulled out the map before I ran it, and had it nearby. I had Garber looking over their shoulder mention off-handedly one of the easier clue locations, and they went to scouring the map.
The Exchange 5/5

Cpt_kirstov wrote:
Doug Doug wrote:
Yes, the GM can lift an image of the map out of the PDF without the legend on it, but that takes an additional printing step that some GMs won't think to do.
The first thing I thought of when I read the senario was ** spoiler omitted **

Oh yEaH, I own that too! Perfect, thanks for pointing that out Cap!


That sounded like a cool in game moment Cpt kirstov, please let me know how the rest of the session went!
@Doug Doug any relation to the Hall and Gallery of Wonders was coincidence from my point of view, I had already turned in my final text of the adventure before I read James regarding his gallery, I actually went doh! If Josh has plans for any relationship between the 2 that is unknown to me....


There are no plans. It's just coincidental design.

The Exchange 5/5

Josh, any feelings on my gripe about the handouts getting their own page? They don't need to be that big and it will save a GM from chopping up their hardcopy. I don't mind it, but I also don't do a lot of printing at home like other GMs.

Sczarni 4/5

Larcifer wrote:

That sounded like a cool in game moment Cpt kirstov, please let me know how the rest of the session went!

@Doug Doug any relation to the Hall and Gallery of Wonders was coincidence from my point of view, I had already turned in my final text of the adventure before I read James regarding his gallery, I actually went doh! If Josh has plans for any relationship between the 2 that is unknown to me....

Sure

Spoiler:
the fighter played by an 8 year old go in the crab... it actually made him do LESS damage than normal, which was nice. The cleric didn't get off any spells, because of the monk's move speed. (I made the mistake of her 'cheering' the brutes on, so the monk ran straight through the mist until he found the ladder) Both groups I've run through it went with the musical opening first, and once they figured that out it the other two were much easier to understand (although they tried to push the wall instead of damage it). The gnome actually told them that the claws still worked (the fighter would have walked through the thugs like butter otherwise, and I knew he'd get in.) Again the monk acting as the flash took out the last guy too quickly, and the thugs/skeletons couldn't hit the AC30 fighter and monk, and the barbarian took out 1/3 of the optional encounter while it was flatfooted with a well places crit. The second group fared a lot worse for wear - getting injured more than once and having the fighter get knocked unconscious once, and feared in the final battle.

Doug Doug wrote:
Josh, any feelings on my gripe about the handouts getting their own page? They don't need to be that big and it will save a GM from chopping up their hardcopy. I don't mind it, but I also don't do a lot of printing at home like other GMs.

I'm chewing on it, yeah. Just like I'm chewing on the idea of putting all of the stat blocks in the back by tier and just referencing them by page in the scenario itself.

Both are radical changes to the way we publish adventures, so I need to think on it a bunch more.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

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Moving the stat blocks to the back, listed by tier would save me a lot of work. I just ran Voice in the Void, and each tier had radically different stats for some encounters. Cut-and-paste worked to put the stats on seperate sheets (by tier) thanks to Office, but I run a LOT of PFS adventures and that equates to a lot of work per scenario.

The Exchange 5/5

My group played this one last night.. first off... Kick a** mod!!!! We had a range of players from a lvl 1 played by a 5 year old to level 7s so we adjusted somewhat with the level of the mod.

For the maps, my gm pulled the maps out of the pdf and put them into a work doc, the legend and all the descriptive information disappered from the maps and the map clues. He did put arrows on the map clues so we'd have some sort of idea what we were doing.

Cannot wait for the future mods in this series.


There's one more in April and then the series is done.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

So I ran this adventure ... when was it, last week? Geez, time is starting to collapse for me.
Here are some of my thoughts:

Spoiler:
First of all, let me say that the adventure was fun to run. I played it at the middle tier with a full count of players (six), and even though the combats were pretty much a pushover, I think the players had fun with the not-combat sections. Let me go through the mod in order.
I played Hestia as an incompetent who was loosing it a little. After all, she keeps on having trouble with the same group of villains and they keep on popping up time and again, despite her efforts. I paraphrased the actual dialog, although I did play up the “This ends now! For a third time we battle Groetus-worshiping dogs and there will not be a fourth!” line and it actually got a laugh! Congrats to Larry Wilhelm for writing something actually funny in an RPG-related publication without resorting to inside jokes from Monty Python, Star Trek, or Star Wars!
The players did wonder what they were doing in Cassomir again, though. After all, there is nothing that brings them there this time, and the troubles in the city don't exactly have Pathfinder Society written all over them (no ancient relics, etc). Perhaps another GM might add something about how Pathfinders seem to have taken point on the whole "derro abductions" plot, and perhaps how the city now sees this as their responsibility. After all, Pathfinders are not do-gooders in general (well, except for those Panglossian Andorans), so why are they helping out a second-rate Taldan city?
The Swift Prison episode was fun, especially playing the crazed painter and having the players run about describing the statue. Luckily I had some Chelaxians in the group (actually 4) so there were plenty of people interested in buying the art for later.
The Hall of Wonders encounter was fun and I used the Obscuring Mist spell for all it was worth. The only reason the combat lasted more than two rounds is because I had Tashelia Ismacco hanging out in the Mist for most of the combat using her channel negative energy ability. This kept the ranged combatants and spellcasters from being able to target her, and hindered the melee fighters from closing easily. Other than the Obscuring Mist, her spells were really no hindrance to the PCs and the warriors were too weak to provide a real bulwark against attackers. I don't care what the Pathfinder RPG says, a CR 3 Cleric and 3 CR 1/3 warriors do not a CR 4 encounter make. Once you start combining different CR opponents who are more then two CR steps apart (and Tashelia and the thugs are 4 steps apart) the math
In general, this is something that is often overlooked in PFS scenarios. There have been a number of very entertaining non-combat encounters and puzzles in the game (#41 had quite a few), but the combat encounters generally fall short because they do not take general D&D player tactics into account.
Rule #1: If you are facing enemy spellcasters you NEED major blockers that can keep the PCs from closing for at least 2-3 rounds, otherwise they will not get their spells off. If they can't get their spells off, why bother putting them into an adventure? This is especially true now that we are using the Pathfinder rules, as Concentration checks for casting defensively are no joke now. The blockers don't necessarily have to be creatures or NPCs, they can also be difficult terrain or other obstacles, as was the case in this encounter. Anyways, back to my summary.
The section with the maps was fun for the players. As I have a subscription, I have the "Cities of Golarion" Map Folio, and they used it effectively. Nothing like props to liven up a RPG.
Act IV: The encounter with the derro was over very quickly and thanks to a well-placed area-effect spell the swarm was not a big threat either.

More to come! Must leave Starbucks now.

1/5

I just started prepping this myself, actually adapting it to the "Stat blocks at the end" format Josh was suggesting so I could print them out and use them in my own unique way, and I ran across a problem with the city map and using that to triangulate the location of the Crypt.

...it kind of labels the crypt openly on the map.

Is there another map of Cassomir I can use somewhere, or would any other maps not have the proper location on it?

EDIT: Never Mind, came up with the solution thanks to a more careful reading of the thread.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5

This is an excellent adventure. Vivid settings. Great roleplaying opportunities. Interesting puzzles. Challenging tactical combats.

I have just run it and I picked up the hint on this forum about printing out the map of the city and the player handouts. This is essential otherwise the puzzles just don't work. You must rip the unlabelled map from the PDF and print it out big for the players.

My players are a sharp bunch and the puzzle was a good challenge for them. Not too easy. Not too hard.

Interestingly they took the adventure out of order. They asked so many smart questions at the briefing that they went to the Engineers Guild first. That's fine. They picked up the storyline again, after that, at the Swift Prison.

My Qadiran player excelled himself by planting the fake ship plans, not in the Engineers Guild but in the Admiralty Building and conned the rest of the players into helping him.

Two fights with limited visibility drove my players nuts but they were interesting tactical combats. The "Gnome repository of clues" VERY nearly died. It took a little fudging to keep her breathing.

Down under Cassomir only one character had Darkvision vs. the Derro's Darkness and that was a Summoner's Eidolon. So the party were in a bit trouble here and the Darkness makes it a tough fight for low to middle parties.

Now comes the BUT. We played for four and a half hours. It was quality play and we did the best bit of the adventure. But by then we had only just got beyond the Fountain. The players were focussed and weren't messing around. They were motoring. But midnight was approaching and most players had long journeys home. There was no hope of finishing. I had to wrap it up cinematically. Dropping the optional encounter wouldn't have made any difference. It was great quality but a LONG adventure. That may be a liability at conventions, even allowing for 5 hour slots.

With a bit of warning about the length of play I think I might have played softball in the fights to get them through faster but it's a shame not to challenge players to their achievable limits.

But I say again.. play this...it's a great adventure!

4/5

I made a city map without the numbers. Would it be OK if I posted it?


Technically, no. I'll see if I can't get the same thing done and added to the PDF when I have a moment to do so.

4/5

I read the adventure carefully but when running it some table time was spent trying to figure out where the stairs from B3 to B4 was. It would have been nice to have a direction element on the map that shows where the stars connect.

btw I liked the adventure. Very much a feeling of playing THE GAME.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Holy necro, Batman!

I'm running this scenario next week and figured to check in about all the details.

Has anyone drawn all the three paintings? I figure it'd be a lot more interesting to spot all the details from a picture than from a description.


I have not heard of anyone doing so, but if you do so please post the results! Let me know how this one goes. Your feedback is helpful!

2/5 *

I think Steel_wind printed out all of the maps and he said 'Devil 3' was one of the best scenarios he's ever GMed. And he attributes a lot of it to the maps.

I'm sure he'll post his thoughts sometime.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

Deussu wrote:

Holy necro, Batman!

I'm running this scenario next week and figured to check in about all the details.

Has anyone drawn all the three paintings? I figure it'd be a lot more interesting to spot all the details from a picture than from a description.

No, not the paintings. Describe them as best you can - it will work.

Use Some Pdf Image Extractor to rip out the maps from the .pdf and print them.

I would advise you to print out the city map using legal size paper on the 2x2 poster print option. Look under preferences for your printer, and check the drop down dialog box.

For your images, scale the extracted image at 300 dpi (not 72) and scale the image to 1"=1" in GIMP (for battlemaps). Print it out using the "print as poster" option and trim and tape to assemble your maps.

The maps and handouts were a GREAT addition to this scenario and my players loved it. One of the best PFS scenarios there is when you go the extra step.


Awww blushes, that's really nice to hear. I hope someone does something with the paintings, For My Forbidden furnace of forgotten koor someone made a prop and it was cool to see.
Happy Gaming!
Larry Wilhelm

Liberty's Edge 3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Larcifer wrote:

Awww blushes, that's really nice to hear. I hope someone does something with the paintings, For My Forbidden furnace of forgotten koor someone made a prop and it was cool to see.

Happy Gaming!
Larry Wilhelm

Seriously - Crypt of Fools was easily my favorite PFS mod to date. Good puzzles are very difficult to pull off, but with all the printed handouts and the map, the players were totally into it. The only other puzzle based PFS scenario that comes close is Rebel's Ransom, but that one has a decidedly "tournament" feel to the nature of its puzzles and gameplay. Great for Gencon (where it was first released) but sub-optimal for in-store play as part of an ongoing PFS campaign. In contrast,Crypt of Fools felt far more National Treasure during play and my players loved that vibe. The puzzle was part of the story -- and that greatly enhanced how the puzzle was perceived by the players. Well done.

The Crazed Painter was a great NPC too. Some GMs prefer goblins, while others prefer kobolds. I like those squeaky voiced and charmingly dumb NPC encounters too, but give me an outright nutjob to roleplay? I'm happy.

If you would be good enough to send me your e-mail address to pathfindernews@gmail.com Larry, that would be great. My Harrow Deck predicts an interview in your future. :)

And as for the conclusion of the Devil We Know - what's up with the Bell of Obedience? Don't you think people have been left hanging for long enough? I'd be greatly interested in seeing a PFS arc that picked up on that plot thread and centered upon a search for the Bell of Obedience. It's not just a bell, it's a relic. It has frikkin' bones in it! That's creepy and it's awesome! Never mind how valuable it is -- how dangerous would it be in the wrong hands? Who would want to buy it and for what nefarious purpose?

I gots to know!


Ha! E mail sent. I actually did propose to the powers that were another mini arc at the next tier level for Cassomir and that bell, I'll leave the details out for now. Have you played the Forbidden furnace of forgotten Koor, it has some puzzles in it? I'd love to hear what you think. Its funny you mention National Treasure as in my original proposal, it had PCs finding goggles of minute seeing and the clues were much smaller. Josh actually commented it felt too much like national treasure with the magical glasses so we took them out. Cool to hear your comments!

Sovereign Court 4/5

I ran this last night and it resulted in the first ever TPK in Finland. The group consisted of only four characters (Tier 1-2):


  • A human cleric 1 (Kyra, pregen)
  • A human ranger 1
  • A human wizard 1
  • A human barbarian 1

So the group was the lowest possible level, but it was balanced. The ranger was an archery-type, which wasn't ideal in this scenario.

All went well, the puzzles were nice, the first encounter at the Hall of Wonders was a cakewalk. Similarly, everyone tried to push the wall at Quickfall Abbey, not deal damage to it. If I am to run this scenario another time I will describe the lone figure to smash the door, not "push down". Alternatively make pushing work.

The encounter against the derro and two mites was a laugh, cleared that one easily. Due to time limits I skipped the optional encounter and continued to the next, against the three cultists. Again, a laugh, a cakewalk. The barbarian made a mistake here by using almost all of his rage, leaving only 1 round to the last encounter.

And, well, the last encounter was the deadly one. I don't think everything was taken into account when building this particular fight. A ghoul itself is a very deadly foe due to it paralyzation. I'm currently looking through all CR rules to determine the real challenge rating since, honestly, I don't think Dalirio Teppish is a mere CR 2 enemy especially with desecrate empowering him and his minions. The whole encounter, as I see it, is a CR 4 (edit: read below). Remember, that with the said spell on Dalirio is a ridiculous offensive attacked, with +6 to each attack and 1d6+4 damage per hit... in addition each hit has a chance to paralyze.

Anyway, the encounter started with the skeletons moving forward. They didn't possess a real threat, yet they were in the way and allowed Dalirio to cast his cause fear on Kyra the Cleric, who failed her save and ran away. After that, Dalirio just calmly dropped one PC after another, one each turn. If his damage wouldn't be sufficient, paralyzation would get them.

This is one of those rare cases I think it would have been sufficient to have just Dalirio there with the desecrate stone or Dalirio and the skeletons. A DC 17 to resist a negative channel is immense, at least for low-level characters.

Nevertheless, the scenario was good. It remains to be seen if the encounter is really too harsh or did the group just have a lot of bad luck.

Edit: Wait a second, just noticed one thing in PRD:

PRD:
Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.

A ghoul has CR 1, and adding one cleric level gives it ½ CR, while the next gives 1 CR more, resulting in CR 2½. Now there have been some discussion about rounding up or down in this case, but as Kelsiko mentions, round up to avoid abuse. So Dalirio is CR 3, the skeleton sum to CR 1, and the desecrate gives another +1 CR. You may disagree, but I consider the last encounter a CR 5.

Grand Lodge 3/5

Deussu wrote:
A ghoul has CR 1, and adding one cleric level gives it ½ CR, while the next gives 1 CR more, resulting in CR 2½. Now there have been some discussion about rounding up or down in this case, but as Kelsiko mentions, round up to avoid abuse. So Dalirio is CR 3, the skeleton sum to CR 1, and the desecrate gives another +1 CR. You may disagree, but I consider the last encounter a CR 5.

This is definitely a tough fight for the party you described, but I disagree with your math.

The section you spoilered says "Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR...". So 2 cleric levels is a +1 to CR.

CR of an encounter in Pathfinder is determined by adding the XP values of all the creatures in the encounter. So this one is: Dalirio (CR2) + 2 x Skeleton (CR 1/3)= 600+(2x135)=770=CR 3. Which would be how they came up with the number in the scenario. I agree, however, that the desecrate should be considered, making it CR 4.

So I think you were right the first time, but CR 4 is still Epic for an APL 1 party.

In general, I find much of this series extremely challenging for 1st-level characters. One bad dice roll (like the cleric failing a Will save) can quickly snowball. I definitely avoid running them for an all brand-new party.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Hmm, when someone says "1 for every 2 class levels added", to me it's the same as ½/lvl.

If done in a step-by-step method, you start out with a ghoul (CR 1), add one level of cleric to it (+½ CR). So now it's a ghoul cleric 1. It has levels added equal to the original monster's CR, 1. Thus the sequent class levels given to the monster should count as +1 CR, eventually summing up as CR 2½. How you wish to round that is another issue.

CR 2½ would probably equal to 700 XP, and each skeleton gives that 135 XP, a total of 970 XP, about CR 3½. Add in desecrate and it goes to 4½. Unfortunately the encounter tables can't fathom halves.

Regardless of whether the math was correct or not, this brings another point all authors should double-check; monsters with class levels. In this particular case a ghoul itself is a very deadly enemy; a ghoul cleric 1 would have probably been sufficient.

There are just so many ways to twist the CR system. How about an advanced ghoul with one cleric level? CR 2½, yet all the stats of that monster are around 20. Or pump the ghoul with just warrior levels, they always count as non-key. A ghoul warrior 8 is CR 5.


Deussu wrote:
There are just so many ways to twist the CR system. How about an advanced ghoul with one cleric level? CR 2½, yet all the stats of that monster are around 20. Or pump the ghoul with just warrior levels, they always count as non-key. A ghoul warrior 8 is CR 5.

Which is funny, because an elf warrior 8 would be CR 6!

At any rate, creatures with save-or-die attacks are risky, especially at low levels; I dislike using them, as a GM.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

Deussu wrote:


The encounter against the derro and two mites was a laugh, cleared that one easily.

Only if they get the initiative on the Derro and kill him before he has a chance to act. Otherwise, this is a deadly encounter, especially for PCs as Tier 1-2. A derro can cast darkness at will!

I'm pretty sure that you need to re-read the way the darkness spell operates and interacts with normal and magical light on pages 263-264. We address this issue on the Deck of Many Things in Episode 009 of the Podcast. Without a Dwarf or Half-orc in the party, a group of 1st level humans are pretty much screwed fighting a Derro at tier 1-2. This encounter happens underground where the ambient light level is "complete darkness". That's very, very bad for the PCs.

There is nothing easy about fighting a Derro in complete darkness where the PCs have a crappy AC, are effectively blind and denied a dex bonus to their AC. Meanwhile, the Derro has total concealment and because it has darkvision, it suffers none of these same effects. It is, in fact, a total pain in the ass. Given that the Derro has sneak attack by default and the players are denied their dex bonus in the dark, this is a TPK waiting to happen at Tier 1-2.

It is so deadly that I would recommned to GMs not to give the Derro sneak attack (as it is supposed to have). If you do and the Derro casts darkness immediately and whenever he needs to thereafter - it's pretty much a TPK without a LOT of luck at that point.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Actually the scenario doesn't state what kind of tactics the derro is about to use. I didn't make it use darkness first, and after that it had no actions. Daze, death.

But you're right, that encounter could be done very nasty with darkness as well.

Silver Crusade 5/5

This may be a silly question....I ran into a small problem while running this module last monday.

Spoiler:

When I remembered playing it the GM handed us a map to puzzle over and we were able to triangulate the location of the crypt of fools after figuring out the clues.

I printed out the map from the PDF and handed it to the Players. One of them said oh look there is the crypt of fools at #5 on the map. Puzzled I looked at the map, and sure enough there was the #5....The map I remember being given by the GM when i played the scenario had no location for the crypt of fools. It had no #5. the other locations were numbered, but not the crypt of fools.

Have i missed something? Is there a player's map in the scenario without the crypt of fools marked?

Thanks

The Exchange 5/5

Your GM either copied the map out of the scenario PDF and printed it or used a copy out of the City Map Folio. When you copy a map out of any PFS scenario, the map legend (encounter areas) does not come with it when it's lifted.

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