I call Capstone Fallacy on this whole test, before it begins. The Pathfinder fighter is a commoner who gets at-will meteor swarms at 20th level. So what? He's helpless from 11th to 19th.
Pit a 17th level fighter against an ancient green dragon (CR 17), and I'll be a lot more interested to see the results.
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Sorry, it was like 4:30 AM and I went to bed before seeing this thread. I improved him a little and fixed the ranged attack math (where on Earth did I get 4 attacks at highest attack bonus? I blame 4 AM). His average damage per round within one range increment is now 255.875. Here's FighterMan again:
FighterMan
Male Human Fighter 20
Alignment: N
Str: 24 (+7) [5 points, +6 enhance., +4 inherent]
Dex: 34 (+12) [10 points, +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance.]
Con: 20 (+5) [5 points, +2 enhance., +4 inherent]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Cha: 9 (-1) [-1 points]
Class and Racial abilities:
Bravery +5
Armor Training 4
Weapon Training (bows +4, light blades +3, heavy blades +2, polearms +1)
Armor Mastery
Weapon Mastery (longbow)
Hit Dice: 20d10+120
Hit Points: 234
AC: 32 (+14 Armor, +7 Dexterity, +1 haste) [Touch 18, Flat-footed 25]
Init: +18 (+12 Dex, +4 Feat, +1 Competence, +1 Luck)
Speed: 60ft
Saves:
Fortitude +24 [+12 base, +5 Con, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Reflex +25 [+6 base, +12 Dex, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Will +20 [+6 base, +5 Wis, +2 Feat, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck], +5 vs fear, 1/day re-roll failed save
BAB: +20
Ranged Atk: +38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23 (1d8+2d6+33 / x4; average 44.5)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +12 Dex, +2 Greater Weapon Focus, +4 Weapon Training, +5 Enhancement, +2 Competence, +1 haste, -2 Rapid Fire, -6 Deadly Aim)
(Damage Breakdown: 4.5 average of 1d8, +7 average damage of 2d6, +7 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +4 Greater Weapon Specialization, +4 Weapon Training, +12 Deadly Aim, +1 Competence)
(Damage Per Round: 1 attack @ 95% chance to hit for 89 average damage, 2 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 44.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 90% chance to hit for 44.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 65% chance to hit for 44.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 40% chance to hit for 44.5 damage; (0.95*89)+(2*0.95*44.5)+(0.9*44.5)+(0.65*44.5)+(0.4*44.5) = 255.875)
Melee Atk: +42/+42/+37/+32/+27 (1d6+15 / 18-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +12 Dex, +3 Weapon Training, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +1 haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 7 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +3 Weapon Training)
(Damage Per Round: 3 attacks @ 95% chance to hit for 18.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 85% chance to hit for 18.5 average damage, 1 attack @ 60% chance to hit for 18.5 average damage; (3*0.95*18.5)+(0.85*18.5)+(0.6*18.5) = 79.55)
CMB: +25
CMD: 49 (cannot be grappled, cannot be disarmed while wielding a longbow, 53 vs sunder while wielding a longbow, 52 vs disarm and sunder while wielding a light blade)
Skills:
Acrobatics +33 (20 ranks, +12 Dex, +1 Competence)
Perception +30 (20 ranks, +5 Wis, +5 Competence)
Feats:
Weapon Focus: Longbow (Human bonus)
Weapon Specialization: Longbow (Fighter bonus)
Iron Will (1 HD)
Point Blank Shot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Initiative (3 HD)
Precise Shot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Iron Will (5 HD)
Deadly Aim (Fighter bonus)
Far Shot (7 HD)
Rapid Shot (Fighter bonus)
Critical Focus (9 HD)
Manyshot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Precise Shot (11 HD)
Penetrating Strike (Fighter bonus)
Staggering Critical (13 HD)
Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow (Fighter bonus)
Blinding Critical (15 HD)
Greater Penetrating Strike (Fighter bonus)
Stunning Critical (17 HD)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow (Fighter bonus)
Weapon Finesse (19 HD)
Quick Draw (Fighter bonus)
Equipment:
+5 mithral full plate
2 +5 composite longbows (mighty +7)
+5 rapier
ring of freedom of movement
manual of quickness in action +5 (already applied)
manual of gainful exercise +4 (already applied)
manual of bodily health +4 (already applied)
belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity)
headband of inspired wisdom +6
boots of speed
greater bracers of archery
cloak of resistance +5
eyes of the eagle
pale green prism ioun stone
pink rhomboid ioun stone
luckstone
20 +1 holy arrows
20 +1 axiomatic arrows
20 +1 anarchic arrows
20 +1 unholy arrows
40 arrows
Money:
880,000g WBL
-
35,500
51,100
51,100
50,320
40,000
137,500
110,000
110,000
90,000
36,000
12,000
25,000
25,000
2,500
30,000
8,000
20,000
7,321
7,321
7,321
7,321
2
=
16,693g remaining
EDIT: Unspoilered him since he's in a dedicated thread, to facilitate quoting.
I call Capstone Fallacy on this whole test, before it begins. The Pathfinder fighter is a commoner who gets at-will meteor swarms at 20th level. So what? He's helpless from 11th to 19th.
Pit a 17th level fighter against an ancient green dragon (CR 17), and I'll be a lot more interested to see the results.
There's really nothing FighterMan does at 20th that he can't do at 17th. He loses the disarm immunity, but dragons aren't known as big-time disarmers anyway. I left enough buffer in his cash originally that I have no doubt he could fit into 17th level WBL. The extra three feats aren't terribly relevant because he doesn't use half his feats against the balor anyway (for example, I have four critical-dedicated feats in the build ... which uses a longbow; not exactly optimal).
So fracking sexy. Don't forget to build locked gauntlets into your armor.
I call Capstone Fallacy on this whole test, before it begins. The Pathfinder fighter is a commoner who gets at-will meteor swarms at 20th level. So what? He's helpless from 11th to 19th.
Pit a 17th level fighter against an ancient green dragon (CR 17), and I'll be a lot more interested to see the results.
Did that in my game actually on it was 2 fighters and rogue and it was an Ancient Black Dragon. They weren't 17th Level but 14th and they took out that dragon so quick I was shocked. Bam the fight was over. One ranged fighter, one sword and board working with the rogue for flanking. Of course this was a planned fight and player were prepared with bane weapons, potions of resistance, and the rogue's use magic allowed for some other spells on scrolls. Had the dragon been a surprise I'm sure the fight would have gone much differently.
So fracking sexy. Don't forget to build locked gauntlets into your armor.
Doesn't really need 'em. He can't be disarmed of his longbow (Weapon Mastery class feature) and it'd be very rare that he would switch to his rapier (he has a spare longbow and he has 53 CMD vs sunder anyway; he's also got DR 5/-, so the Balor's AoOs if it teleports next to him are only doing 15 average damage). Really, the Balor has to get lucky with dominate person or a vorpal crit AoO to kill him.
Fighters are gorram broken. Where the heck is my Nerf Hammer????? :D
Your damage is off!
You forgot all about the crits! Especially because level 20 lets you autocrit and increase the multiplier, increasing your statistical damage by that much!
Before level 20, every hit (well, except the first manyshot hit) has a 5% chance to deal the statistical damage (i.e. X% of its average damage) two more times, as you have a 5% chance to get another shot (i.e. attack roll) to inflict triple damage (well, without that extra damage from manyshot for the first attack).
So you add statistical damage x2 x0.05
On level 20, you add 5% of x3 damage - but not the statistical! You add full average damage, since the crit is automatically confirmed.
Add improved crit instead of, say, weapon finesse, or quick draw, or something else, and it's 10%.
I won't run your numbers for you (I guess you still have them in excel somewhere), but this should not be forgotten.
Plus, critical feats....
I intentionally left crits out just because it's a pain to figure them out and his damage is already seriously overkilling the two-round challenge anyway. Also, he crits at x4 (weapon mastery).
Should we add a CR20 treasure to the Balor to give it a fighting chance?
I intentionally left crits out...
That addresses my concerns right there; thank you. Too often, people factor in the increased crit ranges and auto-confirmed crits as constant class features, skewing the fighter's numbers wildly upward, when in fact these factors only appear at 20th level. As long as we're looking at what a baseline fighter can do -- one without specialized bane weapons and a pie-in-the-sky capstone -- then I'm on board.
Also, flying enemies should fly; that goes without saying. To the poster talking about the fighter and rogue flanking a dragon -- is this done with potions of fly and a hovering enemy? Or are we looking at fly-by attack and strafing tactics?
A) He added all the different bane arrows even though he's only fighting one type of creature in the fight
B) He severely overkills the monster by a lot even though he should have 3 other people with him.
C) He didn't calculate the crits because they're largely unquantifiable as are the fighter's ability to save versus some of the black-and-white resolution SAs that the Balor has.
I'd call this one busted.
Huh, what if there was something like an autocrit ability available earlier with uses/day available?
Bless weapon autocrits vs evil, and would be allowable since FighterMan doesn't use any improved critical properties. Doesn't really need 'em, though; his damage is already obscene.
PS. Caspian, I hope you can see now that archers are just fine :) Pretty much any full-BAB class can pull this off, although I have to admit Weapon Training and Greater Focus helped a ton (+5 to hit).
Should we add a CR20 treasure to the Balor to give it a fighting chance?
The only problem is that it would be treasure picked for this fight. Can the Balor win? It's possible, but its not going to win without some trickery.
I intentionally left crits out just because it's a pain to figure them out and his damage is already seriously overkilling the two-round challenge anyway. Also, he crits at x4 (weapon mastery).
I'll run the numbers for you including the crits if you want, your average damage per his will likely be considerably higher. I just need to know where that 2d6 is coming from?
Edit: My bad just noticed the arrows, looked at the bow expecting holy, didnt look at the amunition.
To be clear, this isn't a 100% unwinnable situation for the Balor. It has a 9% chance to succeed at its dominate person at-will (30% chance if it's ruled FighterMan has already used his Will save re-roll that day), and if he teleports adjacent to FighterMan, FighterMan provokes 6 AoOs from the Balor in the execution of his full attack action which gives the Balor (who has Combat Reflexes and +7 Dex bonus) a 23% chance to vorpal his head off.
That's pretty much all the Balor can do to win, though.
I intentionally left crits out just because it's a pain to figure them out and his damage is already seriously overkilling the two-round challenge anyway. Also, he crits at x4 (weapon mastery).I'll run the numbers for you including the crits if you want, your average damage per his will likely be considerably higher. I just need to know where that 2d6 is coming from?
His +1 holy arrows. I calculated the DPR with crits at ~295, but that was with erroneously multiplying the holy damage and I didn't feel like going back and correcting the math. If you want to calculate it, feel free.
Huh, what if there was something like an autocrit ability available earlier with uses/day available?Bless weapon autocrits vs evil, and would be allowable since FighterMan doesn't use any improved critical properties. Doesn't really need 'em, though; his damage is already obscene.
PS. Caspian, I hope you can see now that archers are just fine :) Pretty much any full-BAB class can pull this off, although I have to admit Weapon Training and Greater Focus helped a ton (+5 to hit).
Dawnbringer did something similar to this in 3.5, but he did not have the extra feats to be good in melee like the PF version does.
The only asterisk is that in most campaigns your treasure is made up of stuff you found, stuff you needed right then, and stuff you had money to buy. It's hard to have the exact gear you want without a crafter in the party if you play up to level 20. I do beleive however that even without the "exact" gear you can do well, but it might mean being stingy with your coins for a while.Long story short: A fighter can make a decent archer but it takes some planning.
It's hard to have the exact gear you want without a crafter in the party if you play up to level 20. I do beleive however that even without the "exact" gear you can do well, but it might mean being stingy with your coins for a while.
Yeah, to be honest about half the monetary value of his gear is fairly incidental anyway. The chance of finding everything in his gear without a crafter is pretty low, but the chance of finding everything absolutely vital is pretty high (except perhaps the tome of quickness in action).
His +1 holy arrows. I calculated the DPR with crits at ~295, but that was with erroneously multiplying the holy damage and I didn't feel like going back and correcting the math. If you want to calculate it, feel free.I intentionally left crits out just because it's a pain to figure them out and his damage is already seriously overkilling the two-round challenge anyway. Also, he crits at x4 (weapon mastery).I'll run the numbers for you including the crits if you want, your average damage per his will likely be considerably higher. I just need to know where that 2d6 is coming from?
Against the balors ac of 36 [its dr wont apply to your bow]
your +38's deal an average of 47.9 each, +33 45.675, +28 34.55, and +23 23.425 which comes out to about 247 damage per round vs the balor. For reference what I did is took the outcome for each attack, what damage is dealt on each roll of d20 (1-20), added it up and divided that by 20 which is why the targets AC is important.Mr Balor has 2 turns to eliminate your archer at best.
I think you forgot the Manyshot hit, Kolokotroni. It can't crit, but it's another 44.5*0.95 average damage.
I think you forgot the Manyshot hit, Kolokotroni. It can't crit, but it's another 44.5*0.95 average damage.
You are correct. Either way its a ton of damage.
Sigh, shame the crossbow vs. bow discrepancy in 3.5/PF is so big...
I don't think it's any worse than in 3.5 and you have deadly aim to help out which 3.5 didn't offer.
To be clear, this isn't a 100% unwinnable situation for the Balor. It has a 9% chance to succeed at its dominate person at-will (30% chance if it's ruled FighterMan has already used his Will save re-roll that day), and if he teleports adjacent to FighterMan, FighterMan provokes 6 AoOs from the Balor in the execution of his full attack action which gives the Balor (who has Combat Reflexes and +7 Dex bonus) a 23% chance to vorpal his head off.
That's pretty much all the Balor can do to win, though.
Just for completeness's sake, you also neglected the 10% chance that the balor can succeed on a "super-disarm" (a.k.a. quickened violent thrust Telekinesis) on the fighter's stuff (bows, quivers, weapons, etc.).
To be clear, this isn't a 100% unwinnable situation for the Balor. It has a 9% chance to succeed at its dominate person at-will (30% chance if it's ruled FighterMan has already used his Will save re-roll that day), and if he teleports adjacent to FighterMan, FighterMan provokes 6 AoOs from the Balor in the execution of his full attack action which gives the Balor (who has Combat Reflexes and +7 Dex bonus) a 23% chance to vorpal his head off.
That's pretty much all the Balor can do to win, though.
Wait... this wasn't the Balor's default strategy: dominate and then teleport adjacent? What was he doing instead, flying around singing "Noel"? Given his intelligence (24), to have him act less than optimally when facing off against holy arrows is to shamelessly rig the scenario.
FighterMan gets through the Dominate 70%, and past the beheading 76%, giving him a 53% chance of survival. In short, the odds are roughly even. This assumes that all fighters pay the required “tax” of high Wisdom and Iron Will (because any that don’t are dead meat long before the Balor comes along) and also avoid the “melee trap” and specialize in archery. Newbie players are quite doomed unless they frequent the CharOps boards.
Wait... this wasn't the Balor's default strategy: dominate and then teleport adjacent? What was he doing instead, flying around singing "Noel"? Given his intelligence (24), to have him act less than optimally when facing off against holy arrows is to shamelessly rig the scenario.
FighterMan wins initiative (+18 vs +11) the majority of the time, which means Mr. Balor only gets one action before he's dead. He can either attempt to dominate, teleport adjacent and hope to vorpal, or teleport away.
Just for completeness's sake, you also neglected the 10% chance that the balor can succeed on a "super-disarm" (a.k.a. quickened violent thrust Telekinesis) on the fighter's stuff (bows, quivers, weapons, etc.).
I don't think that's a viable use of violent thrust. Not the disarming part, anyway; if you want to disarm, you need to use the combat maneuver option. Violent thrust doesn't allow the objects any chance at resisting the spell, which makes me think it's intended to be against unattended objects only. Vader throwing bits of scenery at Luke, in other words, not Vader throwing Luke's lightsaber out of his hand.
Just for completeness's sake, you also neglected the 10% chance that the balor can succeed on a "super-disarm" (a.k.a. quickened violent thrust Telekinesis) on the fighter's stuff (bows, quivers, weapons, etc.).I don't think that's a viable use of violent thrust. Not the disarming part, anyway; if you want to disarm, you need to use the combat maneuver option. Violent thrust doesn't allow the objects any chance at resisting the spell, which makes me think it's intended to be against unattended objects only.
Huh?
"Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level(maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell."
Wait... this wasn't the Balor's default strategy: dominate and then teleport adjacent? What was he doing instead, flying around singing "Noel"? Given his intelligence (24), to have him act less than optimally when facing off against holy arrows is to shamelessly rig the scenario.To be clear, this isn't a 100% unwinnable situation for the Balor. It has a 9% chance to succeed at its dominate person at-will (30% chance if it's ruled FighterMan has already used his Will save re-roll that day), and if he teleports adjacent to FighterMan, FighterMan provokes 6 AoOs from the Balor in the execution of his full attack action which gives the Balor (who has Combat Reflexes and +7 Dex bonus) a 23% chance to vorpal his head off.
That's pretty much all the Balor can do to win, though.
I dont know if the purpose was to provide an arena style match, or an actual scenario. I am assuming it was an arena style match, because I don't see balors getting jumped in a fight.
FighterMan wins initiative (+18 vs +11) the majority of the time, which means Mr. Balor only gets one action before he's dead. He can either attempt to dominate, teleport adjacent and hope to vorpal, or teleport away.
What are the balor's whip rules? I mean, can he teleport close, entangle the fighter to foul his archery, and then go "snicker-snack"? (Or, alternatively, sunder the fighter's bow with his sword and then laugh at him?)
Whoops; good catch.
I'd still disallow it to disarm his bow. Weapon Mastery prevents him from being disarmed while wielding a bow.
I'd still disallow it to disarm his bow. Weapon Mastery prevents him from being disarmed while wielding a bow.
Which brings us back to the capstone deciding the viability of the entire class.
FighterMan wins initiative (+18 vs +11) the majority of the time, which means Mr. Balor only gets one action before he's dead. He can either attempt to dominate, teleport adjacent and hope to vorpal, or teleport away.What are the balor's whip rules? I mean, can he teleport close, entangle the fighter to foul his archery, and then vorpal away? (Or, alternatively, sunder the fighter's bow with his sword and then laugh at him?)
The whip's entangle is a grapple effect, which FighterMan is immune to (ring of free action).
FighterMan has a 53 CMD vs any sunder attempt, which means the Balor has to crit to sunder his bow. Since the bow has 50+ hit points, the Balor cannot reasonably pull off a sunder.
Wait... this wasn't the Balor's default strategy: dominate and then teleport adjacent? What was he doing instead, flying around singing "Noel"? Given his intelligence (24), to have him act less than optimally when facing off against holy arrows is to shamelessly rig the scenario.FighterMan wins initiative (+18 vs +11) the majority of the time, which means Mr. Balor only gets one action before he's dead. He can either attempt to dominate, teleport adjacent and hope to vorpal, or teleport away.
Just for completeness's sake, you also neglected the 10% chance that the balor can succeed on a "super-disarm" (a.k.a. quickened violent thrust Telekinesis) on the fighter's stuff (bows, quivers, weapons, etc.).I don't think that's a viable use of violent thrust. Not the disarming part, anyway; if you want to disarm, you need to use the combat maneuver option. Violent thrust doesn't allow the objects any chance at resisting the spell, which makes me think it's intended to be against unattended objects only. Vader throwing bits of scenery at Luke, in other words, not Vader throwing Luke's lightsaber out of his hand.
I think he was referring to the fact that if a 20th level fighting came looking for him it would only be reasonable for him to know about it. If he knows about there won't be a fair fight, meaning the balor isn't just going to be there waiting for him out in the open, or anywhere that gives the fighter a clean shot at him.
I'd still disallow it to disarm his bow. Weapon Mastery prevents him from being disarmed while wielding a bow.Which brings us back to the capstone deciding the viability of the entire class.
Not so. As hogarth pointed out, violent thrust only has a 10% chance to succeed, and it could be used against his quiver instead (which doesn't have his Weapon Mastery protection).
His damage drops by 20 per arrow if his bow is dispelled
How do you figure? He's got Greater Penetrating Strike and +1 arrows, meaning his attack rolls drop by 4 and his damage drops by 9 per arrow. Those numbers are still sufficient to two-round the Balor since FighterMan will go first the vast majority of the time. And he's got a second bow and Quick Draw, anyway.
Balor teleports away with tail between legs still means the fighter won.
One does not have to kill an opponent to win the battle.
-S
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Why is everyone saying that this is over and obvious? The point is not how much damage he can do, the point is the lack of general options. His damage drops by 20 per arrow if his bow is dispelled, the balor can easily carry his own full cover with telekinesis, and the balor does have a summon to give him some versatility. High-level demons do not fight the same way as ogres.
Now, what would be reasonable conditions and a reasonable spotting range?
Notice Fighterman has two +5 bows, just in case that greater dispel magic works.
Summon eats an action. Assuming that Fighterman goes first (high chances for that), the Balor is some 260 hp down and there is not really much about that.
Not so. As hogarth pointed out, violent thrust only has a 10% chance to succeed, and it could be used against his quiver instead (which doesn't have his Weapon Mastery protection).
I just mentioned it because it's a fun thing to do with Telekinesis. You haven't lived until you've thrown a fighter's sword straight up in the air and had it land on his head (breaking both head and sword). :-)
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Balor teleports away with tail between legs still means the fighter won.
One does not have to kill an opponent to win the battle.
-S
Balor uses is vast intellect and resources to scry on FighterMan to find out where he sleeps. Balor brutally murders fighterman while is bed-down with a buxom bar wench. Fashions a loincloth from Fighterman's skin. Bar wench converted to drink coozie.
One does have to kill a Balor to win the battle.
This example is a fallacy due to the assumption that the Balor will even engage the archer on some big open field or somesuch.