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Ride by Attack
When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Does Ride by Attack grant the special ability to ride through the target of the charge? "you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge)" which would by definition be through the target?
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In short, no.
In a longer explanation, to use rideby attack, you would have to draw your straight line of movement to go past your target, but within reach of your weapon. In most cases, this simply means riding along the side of your target. Think jousting. They would ride past each other, not into each other. If you were to charge directly into the square of the enemy, you would have to attempt an overrun as well, which WOULD provoke an AOO.
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In short, no.
In a longer explanation, to use rideby attack, you would have to draw your straight line of movement to go past your target, but within reach of your weapon. In most cases, this simply means riding along the side of your target. Think jousting. They would ride past each other, not into each other. If you were to charge directly into the square of the enemy, you would have to attempt an overrun as well, which WOULD provoke an AOO.
This is how I have always house ruled the feat in 3.5.
But you can only charge directly at the target, not by the target. Check the rules for Charge.
"Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge."
I had hoped PFRPG would correct either the feats relating to charging or relax the requirements of a charge.
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Ride by Attack
When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.Does Ride by Attack grant the special ability to ride through the target of the charge? "you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge)" which would by definition be through the target?
My take on it using RAW:
- Your mount takes a charge attack action and instead of attacking, makes an overrun maneuver as part of the charge if the movement goes through your enemy's square (sometimes it is not needed).- You make your own attack as a normal charge.
- The Ride by Attack feat provides that you and your mount doesn't provoke AoO for the entire movement or the overrun (which would provoke an AoO because you would be leaving a threatened square to enter your enemy's square)
- You find if you can keep moving resolving the overrun maneuver, using your mount's CMB.
Anyway the feat is very unclear, but that is common in every rule of mounted combat. Some of my own questions here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/questionAboutMounts&page=1#4
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My take on it using RAW:
- Your mount takes a charge attack action and instead of attacking, makes an overrun maneuver as part of the charge if the movement goes through your enemy's square (sometimes it is not needed).
- You make your own attack as a normal charge.
- The Ride by Attack feat provides that you and your mount doesn't provoke AoO for the entire movement or the overrun (which would provoke an AoO because you would be leaving a threatened square to enter your enemy's square)
- You find if you can keep moving resolving the overrun maneuver, using your mount's CMB.
Anyway the feat is very unclear, but that is common in every rule of mounted combat. Some of my own questions here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/questionAboutMounts&page=1#4
Thank you, very elegant solution sticks to the RAW and answers the questions.
I will check out your thread on Mounted combat
Note: Even going by technical RAW, directly charging to the "closest square" that you must attack from doesn't necessarily mean you have to overrun, due to rounding.
For instance - if you are directly in line with someone, except one square to the side, if you charge straight along the path and end up in the square at their "corner", you have moved the shortest distance to attack them, and can continue "straight" past them, instead of through them.
Now back out of the square-based world our characters live in - if you charge up to someone, from just a bit to one side, you are going directly at them to attack, and can ride past.
The real prohibitive intent of the charge rules are to prevent convenient repositioning for flanking and such. Imagine two characters standing next to eachother, both "charging" to the opposite side of someone in front of them, getting both charge +2 and flank +2 - it's a bit silly. Charging up to the corners? I could see that.
Essentially you need to maneuver in a straight line, to attack as soon as you can. But "Ride-by Attack" definitely should allow you to ride by, instead of over. I do *love* that overrun idea though, nice.
angelroble Good thread. I wonder what makes some threads get dumped into the archives with no solutions even from non-staff and others don't.
Well, mounted combat is not very popular as mounts die a lot and you can't take them to many dungeons; so not many people is worried about it or knows the rules.
Note: Even going by technical RAW, directly charging to the "closest square" that you must attack from doesn't necessarily mean you have to overrun, due to rounding.
For instance - if you are directly in line with someone, except one square to the side, if you charge straight along the path and end up in the square at their "corner", you have moved the shortest distance to attack them, and can continue "straight" past them, instead of through them.
Yes, that's why I wrote "sometimes it is not needed".
Now back out of the square-based world our characters live in - if you charge up to someone, from just a bit to one side, you are going directly at them to attack, and can ride past.
The real prohibitive intent of the charge rules are to prevent convenient repositioning for flanking and such. Imagine two characters standing next to eachother, both "charging" to the opposite side of someone in front of them, getting both charge +2 and flank +2 - it's a bit silly. Charging up to the corners? I could see that.
Essentially you need to maneuver in a straight line, to attack as soon as you can. But "Ride-by Attack" definitely should allow you to ride by, instead of over. I do *love* that overrun idea though, nice.
Sure. In fact, most (or many) of the charges shouldn't be going straight to your enemy, as your inertia would make you to crash into him, possibly causing you to unbalance and drop to the ground. Also, it would narrow your hit choices (for ex. no side swings).
I like very much the charges Aquilles perform in the Troya movie, though that final jump is a bit too much, maybe. They were slightly to the enemy's side but still profiting from momentum. Also the anime/manga samurai charges, or the knight tournaments are not straight through your enemy space.The way to insert this idea in the game could be something like this:
"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movent, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. You can choose the ending space using the following method: drow a line from any corner of your initial space to any corner of your foe's space; the final space is the closest to your initial space from which you can attack your enemy"
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This was the official answer to this question in the Official 3.5 FAQ:
"With the rules erratum that prohibits overruns as part of a charge, the Ride-By Attack feat is now nearly useless. You must use the charge action to use the Ride-By Attack feat, and that requires you to travel in a straight line toward your target. Using the example in the PH, this would appear to rather specifically mean along a line from your entire square (or squares if riding a horse or other mount with a space of 10 feet or greater), to the target square. Ride-By Attack allows you to continue moving along the straight line of the charge after your attack. This would have to mean that at some point you would enter the square (or squares) of the creature you attacked. (At least I cannot conceive of any other way it could be done). Since you cannot enter your foe’s space unless the creature is already dead, Ride-By Attack is now pretty much useless if you can’t also overrun the foe. Some have suggested that you could charge in a manner that would not bring you through the target creature’s square (or squares). To do so, you would not be charging directly toward the target and likely not moving by the shortest route (also a charge requirement) or attacking it from the first possible square (another charge requirement). In any of these cases, you would be breaking the rules for a charge. Am I wrong about any of this?
No, you’ve got it about right.
When using the Ride-By attack feat, you must conduct your charge so that you move in a straight line toward the closest square from which it is possible to attack your chosen foe, so long as it is a square that allows you to attack and then continue on in the straight line of the charge. You still must attack your foe the moment you reach that square. (Although the feat description doesn’t say so, you and your mount also must move at least 5 feet after you make your attack to get the benefit of the feat.) This is a special rule for charging when using the Ride-By Attack feat. Note that the Flyby Attack feat (discussed in the previous question) does not require you to move in a straight line. You merely make a single move and take another standard action at some point during that move."
I think it's reasonable to allow it in Pathfinder, too.
This was the official answer to this question in the Official 3.5 FAQ:
Great, though I never saw that answer (in the Monsters section of the FAQ, what the ...??), we were using that same mechanic in my group.
It's a pity that the PF designers didn't include the rule, but it's "official" enough for me. Thanks.Of course I would still allow the Overrun option from above.
Can you even use Ride-by Attack with a charge? There seems to be a disconnect in the rules. That's obviously the intent, but the rules as written don't seem to allow for it.
My players are really confused and are hoping for some Pathfinder Designer input on the matter.
The disconnect comes into play when the rules say that you MUST charge directly towards your target. You can't do that, and then move again without trampling the foe in your way, but you can't trample since you can't charge when there is an obstacle (of any kind) in your way.
You can't even charge alongside the target (jousting style) by RAW since that is not the shortest possible route from which you can make your attack.