Hi Erik and crew,

Just wondering what the fate of the Demonomicon of Iggwilv series in Dragon will be, given the impending release of the Fiendish Codex? It seems that all the demons described in the Demonomicon articles made it into the book... will we be seeing more Demonomicon articles in Dragon?

I'm looking forward to the book, and have really enjoyed the article series.

Thanks for your time.

The Demonomicon articles will continue to do what they do; from the outset we designed these articles to support the Fiendish Codex, and vice-versa. Think of the Demonomicon's relationship to the Fiendish Codex in the same way as a monster ecology's relationship to the Monster Manual. The two will complement each other quite well.

The Demonomicon articles will continue to do what they do; from the outset we designed these articles to support the Fiendish Codex, and vice-versa. Think of the Demonomicon's relationship to the Fiendish Codex in the same way as a monster ecology's relationship to the Monster Manual. The two will complement each other quite well.

The Demonomicon articles will continue to do what they do; from the outset we designed these articles to support the Fiendish Codex, and vice-versa. Think of the Demonomicon's relationship to the Fiendish Codex in the same way as a monster ecology's relationship to the Monster Manual. The two will complement each other quite well.

Grazz't!!!

Socoth-benoth, please.

Grazz't!!!

James Jacobs wrote:

The Demonomicon articles will continue to do what they do; from the outset we designed these articles to support the Fiendish Codex, and vice-versa. Think of the Demonomicon's relationship to the Fiendish Codex in the same way as a monster ecology's relationship to the Monster Manual. The two will complement each other quite well.

If that's the case James I'm expecting that the next few Demonomicon articles should be about Pale Night, Obox-ob, that ice demon fellow (I won't even bother trying to spell his name) and Dagon? Since they are all listed in the Fiendish Codex this seems only logical, but am I right?

I noticed that in the Table of Contents for Fiendish Codex that the 5 Demon Princes already covered in the Demonomicon will also be featured in Fiendish Codex. Seeing this made me hope that the other big 5 Grazz't, Demogorgon, Jubilex, Orcus, and Yenoghuu (sp) might also get there own Demonomicon articles. I know the main goal is to give Demon Princes not previously covered some coverage but these five really need to have their own Demonomicon articles. Two of them did not get Thrall PrCs in the BoVD and all of them would benefit from a Demonomicon article. Just thought you might considered doing one of these five every other Demonomicon issue until they have all been covered. For example Dragon 345 Kostchichi(sp), 349 New Demon Prince, 353 Orcus, 357 New Demon Prince, 361 Demongorgon... You get the idea. Anyway just a thought.

... At the very least, cover the Demon Lords that didn't get Thrall classes in BOVD. That only numbers two. No rush, of course, I much perfer reading about "new" (to me, anyway) Demon Lords. Ones lost to antiquity.

Razz wrote:

Grazz't!!!

He was already covered in the Book of Vile Darkness, and will be recovered in the Fiendish Codex, along with many others.

I know this already, I was stating that I wanted to see Grazz't covered in Demonomicon...and soon! :D

Aberzombie wrote:

Razz wrote:

Grazz't!!!

He was already covered in the Book of Vile Darkness, and will be recovered in the Fiendish Codex, along with many others.

I know this already, I was stating that I wanted to see Grazz't covered in Demonomicon...and soon! :D

cept in the FC he is probley a CR 20-25. In The Demonomican article he should be much stronger. And you could always think of the dragon article as a web enhancment. IMO Dragon and Dungeon do a much better job at presenting new material then any other publisher, including WoTC.

After reading through the Fiendish Codex I noticed a few possible mistakes.
The index list of Demon Lords does not include Malcanthet, Mishka, or Nql.
The index of Abyssal Layers includes layers ruled by Chemosh and Hiddukel. These are Dragonlance deities who have no connection with (that) Abyss. Also, Malcanthet's layer is not listed. Anyone know if these will be corrected.

In DoI, I'd like to see...IGGWILV!

In DoI, I'd like to see...IGGWILV!

...IMO Dragon and Dungeon do a much better job at presenting new material then any other publisher, including WoTC.

As for Grazz't and Iggwilv, if the Demonomicon stays in character we probably won't see either. Why would the Witch-Queen divulge her secrets, or those of her lover, Grazz't? She writes them to get the dirt out on the other Lords (possibly to weaken their position) and advance her own agenda.

Oh, and to bring us new demons (like the Ice Demon from Kost-chu-tchi's installment) to torment our players with!

Demon's are a DM's best friend,

Anarch of Layer 46,598

Bloody Root wrote:

...IMO Dragon and Dungeon do a much better job at presenting new material then any other publisher, including WoTC.

nicely done, I'll second that! Eric, James and crew have fewer typo's too ;)

As for Grazz't and Iggwilv, if the Demonomicon stays in character we probably won't see either. Why would the Witch-Queen divulge her secrets, or those of her lover, Grazz't? She writes them to get the dirt out on the other Lords (possibly to weaken their position) and advance her own agenda.

Oh, and to bring us new demons (like the Ice Demon from Kost-chu-tchi's installment) to torment our players with!

Demon's are a DM's best friend,

Anarch of Layer 46,598

After reading through the Fiendish Codex I noticed a few possible mistakes.
The index list of Demon Lords does not include Malcanthet, Mishka, or Nql.
The index of Abyssal Layers includes layers ruled by Chemosh and Hiddukel. These are Dragonlance deities who have no connection with (that) Abyss. Also, Malcanthet's layer is not listed. Anyone know if these will be corrected.

I kept the Chemosh and Hiddukel layers for completeness sake. If you don't want to use them as part of the core cosmology, don't.

I personally hate all of these boutique cosmologies and retcons that have infected the planar cosmology of D&D over the last few years, but your mileage may vary.

Malcanthet's layer is easily extrapolated from the full description it receives on page 150. It's layer 570, and it was omitted from the appendix accidentally.

I doubt any of this stuff rises to the level of official errata, but there you have it.

--Erik

As far as information in the Demonomicon and Graz'zt and Iggwilv are concerned, if Batman can keep detailed files on all of the members of the Justice League, you don't think Iggwilv would keep some notes on her on again, off again lover?

Oh, did Eltab make the demon lord list?

Oh, did Eltab make the demon lord list?

And as for the Demonomicon... There's no reason why Iggwilv wouldn't include Graz'zt. She was working on the book before she hooked up with him, and their relationship has certainly had enough rocky parts that she'd have a lot of juicy comments about him.

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Oh, did Eltab make the demon lord list?

He did!

And as for the Demonomicon... There's no reason why Iggwilv wouldn't include Graz'zt. She was working on the book before she hooked up with him, and their relationship has certainly had enough rocky parts that she'd have a lot of juicy comments about him.

..I kept the Chemosh and Hiddukel layers for completeness sake. If you don't want to use them as part of the core cosmology, don't.

I personally hate all of these boutique cosmologies and retcons that have infected the planar cosmology of D&D over the last few years, but your mileage may vary...

--Erik

As for planar cosmologies, as a hardcore Planescape fan, I write off the "new" FR cosmology, the Dragonlance cosmology, and others as simply the only way a Clueless can grasp the planar truth of the Great Ring. They are the Clueless, afterall. Almost all of the FR cosmology fits nicely within the Great Ring, as does most others. Maybe I should submit an article along these lines...

Eberron is a unique animal, but also has it's place in the Wheel. Xoriat is the closest thing to the Far Realm that I've seen in print, so Alienists and others who pull from the realm of tentacled madness are just tapping into the Eberron cosmology. The ECS even mentions that the Daelkyr have devoured whole other worlds that go unnamed, so perhaps Xoriat / the Far Realm serves as that third transitive plane that the Planar scholars have been seeking for so long. Travel between the two is possible, just ill advised. Thank you Bruce Cordell for all of your tentacled deliciousness for providing us with this link.

Anywho, those're my two greens. I just don't think that clueless cosmologies are anything to get worked up over.

Anarch of Tentacled Goodness

Mishka is imprisoned on another plane, so I forgot to include him in the list.

I kept the Chemosh and Hiddukel layers for completeness sake. If you don't want to use them as part of the core cosmology, don't.

Chemosh - The god of war and the national god of the Moabites. He is a jack-of-all-trades, and a master of most. He is equivalent to the Babylonian Shamash.

I personally hate all of these boutique cosmologies and retcons that have infected the planar cosmology of D&D over the last few years, but your mileage may vary.

Think of the Demonomicon's relationship to the Fiendish Codex in the same way as a monster ecology's relationship to the Monster Manual. The two will complement each other quite well.

I'm not convinced that "Nql" is the name of a demon lord. Or, rather, I'm not convinced that it's the full name--the only reference to it is followed immediately by a dash, as if the fragment from which it was transcribed ended suddenly.

I kept the Chemosh and Hiddukel layers for completeness sake. If you don't want to use them as part of the core cosmology, don't.

I personally hate all of these boutique cosmologies and retcons that have infected the planar cosmology of D&D over the last few years, but your mileage may vary.

--Erik

As for Chemosh and Hiddukel's layers, I guess they should technically be considered abandoned, seeing how officially they have left the Abyss that is part of the Great Wheel. At least that's how I'll look at it.

Thanks Erik

Brinebeast wrote:

I kept the Chemosh and Hiddukel layers for completeness sake. If you don't want to use them as part of the core cosmology, don't.

I personally hate all of these boutique cosmologies and retcons that have infected the planar cosmology of D&D over the last few years, but your mileage may vary.

Two problems with this:

1. Dragonlance's cosmology was separate before it became incorporated into the Great Wheel (around the time of Manual of the Planes). The Dragonlance Abyss and the Greyhawk Abyss weren't originally identical. MotP and 2nd edition AD&D even had to move Takhisis to the Nine Hells since she's lawful evil. So it's not so much a retcon as a retcon of a retcon, and we worked hard to clarify all of this in the recent DL gaming sourcebooks.

2. Chemosh isn't chaotic evil, he's neutral evil. So either he's slumming in an Abyssal layer or he's not the Dragonlance Chemosh (who is incidentally a major player in recent Dragonlance novels.)

Are all the chaotic evil Faerunian gods included in the list?

Cheers,
Cam

I'm not convinced that "Nql" is the name of a demon lord. Or, rather, I'm not convinced that it's the full name--the only reference to it is followed immediately by a dash, as if the fragment from which it was transcribed ended suddenly.

possibilities abound. ;)

Just to let everyone know, WotC put up the third installment of their downloadable articles on the Aspects of various demon lords. They've also, quite handily, put up one combined version of all three Aspect articles (10 MB zip file, but it puts them all in alphabetical order).

Erik Mona wrote:

I'm not convinced that "Nql" is the name of a demon lord. Or, rather, I'm not convinced that it's the full name--the only reference to it is followed immediately by a dash, as if the fragment from which it was transcribed ended suddenly.

:D the question then is, just what is Nql? is that the shortened name of another lord? is it an alias of another lord? is it another non-lord demon? is it something other than a demon? is it a legend who may or may not have existed?

possibilities abound. ;)

As for planar cosmologies, as a hardcore Planescape fan, I write off the "new" FR cosmology, the Dragonlance cosmology, and others as simply the only way a Clueless can grasp the planar truth of the Great Ring. They are the Clueless, afterall.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2470377&postcount=1218

Upon strict search in the tomes in my resources, I have not located the elusive "Nql;" not in whole or in part. I noticed, however, through a side bar search that the letters, n, q & l are more than like the first three letters of the demon lord's actual name. Take heed to this excerpt:

"...and thereupon the voice belled forth in tones of hollow iron and spoke of the Coming of the City of the Gods. Such future events interested me not, no I gave the command: 'Answer in th...' (here the fragment becomes entirely illegible)...so knowing both the secret and the spell which would unlock the Way to this horde of the Demon Prince Nql...(another break in the writing unfortunately occurrs here)...gathered the nine as required and proceeded forth. With me in addition were the dyoph servants necessary to transport the Code, for I would not leave it behind on even so perilous a journey as this." (Here the entire fragment ends.)

It was lifted as a quote and the illegible points are either intentional deleted areas or accidental smudges.

Socoth-benoth, please.

James Jacobs wrote:

Think of the Demonomicon's relationship to the Fiendish Codex in the same way as a monster ecology's relationship to the Monster Manual. The two will complement each other quite well.

I'm very hopeful we'll see a hardcover 'Demonomicon' vol. 1 in the next couple years...as well as a 'Monstrous Ecologies' or some such...these 'Dragon' features are among my most favorite in the magazine. HC collections of these articles sold alongside the FCs and MMs would go over quite well, I think.

nice, dude. :)

i have been looking in the dragon online issues, and sometime WoTC should DEFINATELY include Ulgurshek in one of those issues one of these days. i am just YEARNING to have him in my campaign!
if you think about it, you KNOW it'll be AWESOME.