Order of the Amber Die—Doomsday Dawn Playtest, Part 1

Wonderful first post and outing with the Pathfinder Playtest, Order of the Amber Die!

I'm shocked you didn't have any character deaths! I really thought my players would escape unscathed, but maybe it was the last of hero points that got one done in. Our human monk who excelled against Drakus fell to centipedes after they came back a third day to 'clear up' the rest of the Ashen Ossuary. I also dropped numerous characters below 0, though at least 3 of those were the barbarian within the same encounter. Try as the Cleric might to heal him, I brought him down!

Love that goblin alchemist mini!

Question for the DM and Sajan: with the flurry action did you do the two Strikes as 0/0 or 0/-4? We did the 0/-4.

Thrilled we'll have your updates to follow! Thank you!

Awesome stuff you guys!

This campaign is great I almost killed my character when i jumped down the stair case leading to 6 skeletons with no visibility.

Wonderful first post and outing with the Pathfinder Playtest, Order of the Amber Die!

I'm shocked you didn't have any character deaths! I really thought my players would escape unscathed, but maybe it was the last of hero points that got one done in. Our human monk who excelled against Drakus fell to centipedes after they came back a third day to 'clear up' the rest of the Ashen Ossuary. I also dropped numerous characters below 0, though at least 3 of those were the barbarian within the same encounter. Try as the Cleric might to heal him, I brought him down!

Love that goblin alchemist mini!

Question for the DM and Sajan: with the flurry action did you do the two Strikes as 0/0 or 0/-4? We did the 0/-4.

Thrilled we'll have your updates to follow! Thank you!

I know, no deaths! Everything felt really balanced with being able to knock PCs to the ground but not having the lightning-quick deaths that have occurred with a couple of our recent projects for the blog (i.e., graveknight w\greataxe, draugr w\greataxe). TPK certainly felt as present as ever when two PCs were on the ground in the final battle.

Flurry it was played as 0/0, then -4 (agile) and -8 (agile). I'm sure Sean will chime in here this weekend, but one amusing situation that occurred with Sajan was when he grabbed up a goblin with a natural 20, yet it managed to escape easily on its next action (abruptly ending the players' hand-slapping spree).

Glad you liked how everything turned out, we had a great time with it all!

So I'm curious about something you had noted. The average time you said about character creation was about 2 and a half hours. Now was that time spent from each person working solely on their character, or was that chunk of time spent trying to figure out how to put characters together?

2.5 hrs to make a character from experienced, "18 year" players is insane - but that sounds about right compared to my own experience. Nearly 3 hours for me.

Hmmm...two PC deaths eh? That's a heavy loss for the start of an adventure. Also, I'm curious why you went with a Goblin PC (especially in a city like Magnimar which might not tolerate monstrous races like goblins).

Hmmm...two PC deaths eh? That's a heavy loss for the start of an adventure. Also, I'm curious why you went with a Goblin PC (especially in a city like Magnimar which might not tolerate monstrous races like goblins).

The goblin can be a renegade of the Mudchewers, tho how they deal with the city afterwards might be an issue. Though they've got a friendly Aristocrat NPC after so shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Hmmm...two PC deaths eh? That's a heavy loss for the start of an adventure. Also, I'm curious why you went with a Goblin PC (especially in a city like Magnimar which might not tolerate monstrous races like goblins).

During character selection, there was no way I was missing out on the first goblin iconic, especially when Adam said there was a background for a goblin as part of the adventure. I was a renegade of the Mudchewers and participated in the failed coup, and Adam gave me the same information Talga knew. It got interesting when they yelled insults or directly tried to communicate with me, since I already knew most of the goblins. If we have to stick around Magnimar, I intend to keep a very low profile for sure!

We were fortunate not to have any deaths, but two of us were knocked into dying in the final battle.

So I'm curious about something you had noted. The average time you said about character creation was about 2 and a half hours. Now was that time spent from each person working solely on their character, or was that chunk of time spent trying to figure out how to put characters together?

Good question, and Evilbob with his comment as well. I can add a little, since I was the one who had the shortest time at 75 minutes. We all felt like we could have made these characters faster than the average came out, but because of a few factors the time did seem a little high to us after we tallied it. One of us tried to see if it could be done using his phone and came in somewhere close to three hours. We were also learning a new system, and weren't sure whether to include the time it took us to read the rules about our characters as well. In addition, we hadn't memorized where everything was located in the rulebook, so there was time lost on searching that doesn't occur as much after playing the same edition for a while. You both raise some interesting points, I'll be in part three next, so I'm hoping to have more perspective soon!

Awesome, I'm glad to hear that it took so long because you were attempting a few different ways of creation while at the same time trying to piece a new system together. Thank you for giving some insight on that, I look forward to seeing the rest of your guy's feedback as I sadly do not have a group available to really participate in the play test.

Thank you (again) for sharing your dedication and creativity! I truly appreciate the positive and respectful nature you all take to the game. A great example for folks that play this awesome game of ours.

Awesome stuff as always. Congrats guys/ In my playtest Drakus also dropped a player with a brutal crit, the fight felt very intense, even without the 1hit kills of PF1. Cannot wait for the next update guys :)

Awesome, I'm glad to hear that it took so long because you were attempting a few different ways of creation while at the same time trying to piece a new system together. Thank you for giving some insight on that, I look forward to seeing the rest of your guy's feedback as I sadly do not have a group available to really participate in the play test.

I'm glad we could ease some of your concerns, I had some of the same feelings after I saw how long it took me. The time it took me to build a higher level character (soon to show up as our playtest continues) was probably close to the same as my first, so I'll take that as a positive that I'm learning the mechanics of a system.

We're super excited to be continuing our journey in the playtest, it's a shame that you aren't able to experience the full effect, but sometimes an observer can give a needed impartial observation! If we can help facilitate a vicarious gaming experience, then all of this is more than worth it. It's been a good deal of effort for us players so far, so thanks again for the kind words, it makes this experience so much better.

Awesome stuff as always. Congrats guys/ In my playtest Drakus also dropped a player with a brutal crit, the fight felt very intense, even without the 1hit kills of PF1. Cannot wait for the next update guys :)

I was so pumped that I opened with a 20 vs. Drakus!

Thanks for reading man, I miss those brutal days of 1-hit kills too, but maybe this is for the best. Did your player die? We still ended up (myself included) on the ground plenty, so it felt rough but fair.

Fight on!

Thank you (again) for sharing your dedication and creativity! I truly appreciate the positive and respectful nature you all take to the game. A great example for folks that play this awesome game of ours.

Thanks so much for the kind words! We are all having a blast playtesting this new edition. And so, running a Sorcerer, while I was obviously paying particular attention to the way spells and spellcasting were going to work, I was also intrigued to see how something less common to spellcasters like Sorcerers was going to play out: demoralize.

It was interesting to see how demoralize worked with a spellcaster in combat-type situations. I thought it might be a cool combo to try out, since most spells are two actions, using my third action each round to demoralize a foe. I didn’t actually get to use it as much as I thought I would. It seemed my third action each round was often used for movement, but I am definitely intrigued to see how demoralize will play out as I play Seoni at higher levels!

Always good to hear from you guys, and what a wonderful Setup you have created! Good luck in your further testing.

SilentInfinity wrote:

Question for the DM and Sajan: with the flurry action did you do the two Strikes as 0/0 or 0/-4? We did the 0/-4.

Flurry it was played as 0/0, then -4 (agile) and -8 (agile).

Huh, the tentative consensus in this thread seems to be that it should be 0/-4. But I suspect you guys have a pretty good track record of getting the rules right...

Would be great to get some developer clarification regarding what was intended here. Maybe Mark Seifter or Jason Bulmhan will chip in?

Always good to hear from you guys, and what a wonderful Setup you have created! Good luck in your further testing.

Good to hear from you too, DerNils! It's nice to get comments about the setup, when I'm not kicking butt as a monk, I'm a contractor who put a lot of work into creating the frame that we use to hang our backdrops and control lighting effects. The fun part is assigning jobs to other players during the setup process, and watching everyone click as a team for an hour before the session even begins.

Adam Smith wrote:

SilentInfinity wrote:

Question for the DM and Sajan: with the flurry action did you do the two Strikes as 0/0 or 0/-4? We did the 0/-4.

Flurry it was played as 0/0, then -4 (agile) and -8 (agile).

Huh, the tentative consensus in this thread seems to be that it should be 0/-4. But I suspect you guys have a pretty good track record of getting the rules right...

Would be great to get some developer clarification regarding what was intended here. Maybe Mark Seifter or Jason Bulmhan will chip in?

The players might chime in here later too, but I remember this being a 50/50 split at the table, with a lot of the same types of arguments being made that were on the thread. You're right that we have a pretty good track record with getting rules right, but it's a lot easier to do that when there is a clear and definitive rule. At the same time, as GM I liked that we played it as 0/0, since this was a playtest and the point was to gather data (even if that data might come from the less popular side of a rules debate). We didn't find Sajan to be overpowered, but this was also only one session. As we gear up for parts 2 and 3 this weekend, the players have mostly shifted to feeling that Flurry is likely intended to be played as 0/-4 (sigh). Sometimes I'm not sure who has the more difficult job during a playtest, the GM or players! :)

This campaign is great I almost killed my character when i jumped down the stair case leading to 6 skeletons with no visibility.

That’s awesome! Memorable moments like that are why I love to play this game. Our group actually missed the skeletons, but after we found out what was down there (and from your tale), we are glad we did!

Flurry it was played as 0/0, then -4 (agile) and -8 (agile).

This does seem to be an incorrect reading of the ability, as it does 2 Strike actions, both of which have the Attack trait (and thus both are separately affected by MAP).

I could see an argument for both strikes occuring at the same time and thus not affecting each other, but then the remainder of the attacks would be at -8 with agile (since you've already had two actions with the attack trait from Flurry). However, with the conspicuous absence of such language from the Flurry description (whereas Double Slice includes it, for example), I'm fairly certain 0/-4 for flurry is the correct reading.

Adam Smith wrote:

Flurry it was played as 0/0, then -4 (agile) and -8 (agile).

This does seem to be an incorrect reading of the ability, as it does 2 Strike actions, both of which have the Attack trait (and thus both are separately affected by MAP).

I could see an argument for both strikes occuring at the same time and thus not affecting each other, but then the remainder of the attacks would be at -8 with agile (since you've already had two actions with the attack trait from Flurry). However, with the conspicuous absence of such language from the Flurry description (whereas Double Slice includes it, for example), I'm fairly certain 0/-4 for flurry is the correct reading.

Yes, received confirmation to end the debate. No matter how we've each chosen to play it, correct ruling is 0/-4, which--most importantly--means Lem might just have a chance at showing Sajan up in a combat on the next blog. Hehehe!

Not if Seoni can show him up first! All I remember was Sajan on the ground and terrible rolling when he wasn’t—it wouldn’t have mattered anyway lol. The surprising real MVP of the battle was the Electric Arc cantrip. Gotta say, I find what they have done with cantrips to be really interesting, and I am looking forward to seeing how they scale and stack up at higher levels. Anybody else feel strongly about cantrips one way or the other?

I feel Cantrip fulfill their role of having casters cast as their main activity instead of shooting crossbows until the boss fight. Some seem rather strong for being a Cantrip (disrupt undead), others have been strangely limited for no apparent reason. Why limit prestidigitation and unseen servant?

I feel Cantrip fulfill their role of having casters cast as their main activity instead of shooting crossbows until the boss fight. Some seem rather strong for being a Cantrip (disrupt undead), others have been strangely limited for no apparent reason. Why limit prestidigitation and unseen servant?

I feel that's intentional.

Cantrips are now more like an attack to not have to keep wasting resources in combat if there's no need. While spells are the burst and the utility.

So, utility cantrips are relatively weaker than damage ones because they serve different purpose.

It's the eternal pet peeve of the community to limit the utility of casters and raise the utility of martial (some understandable, some not) so we can't have at will *strong* utility. Damage cantrips are an entirety different thing, since they are encounter only and balanced around expected *low* damage that a character should do *for free* if he wishes.

Good point, I am just surprised "fluff" spells like prestidigitation and unseen servant needed to be reined in. I don't think I ever encountered anything unbalanced about them, but my experience is limited. Overall, I am happy with cantrips.

Good point, I am just surprised "fluff" spells like prestidigitation and unseen servant needed to be reined in. I don't think I ever encountered anything unbalanced about them, but my experience is limited. Overall, I am happy with cantrips.

Prestigiditation, no. It was a fluff spell that I'm sad that's being reigned in. Although, I've heard absurd requests from my players on occasion to use it in ways a cantrips shouldn't be used (but never explicitly had rules to reign it)

Unseen servant cheese though is real in a lot of circumstances. Like free reloads on guns/xbows and etc.

Yes, received confirmation to end the debate. No matter how we've each chosen to play it, correct ruling is 0/-4, which--most importantly--means Lem might just have a chance at showing Sajan up in a combat on the next blog. Hehehe!

Look at it like this, though -- you'll effectively wind up testing it both ways, and that difference could be useful data.

DerNils wrote:

I feel Cantrip fulfill their role of having casters cast as their main activity instead of shooting crossbows until the boss fight. Some seem rather strong for being a Cantrip (disrupt undead), others have been strangely limited for no apparent reason. Why limit prestidigitation and unseen servant?

I feel that's intentional.

Cantrips are now more like an attack to not have to keep wasting resources in combat if there's no need. While spells are the burst and the utility.

So, utility cantrips are relatively weaker than damage ones because they serve different purpose.

It's the eternal pet peeve of the community to limit the utility of casters and raise the utility of martial (some understandable, some not) so we can't have at will *strong* utility. Damage cantrips are an entirety different thing, since they are encounter only and balanced around expected *low* damage that a character should do *for free* if he wishes.

My thoughts exactly! I love the fact that, as a caster, you are now actually casting all the time, and not shooting a crossbow, for example. I think your analysis of at-will cantrip damage versus at-will utility (and burst) is spot on. It will be interesting to see if it stays exactly that way won’t it? And as far as nerfed cantrips go, how about Guidance?!