Feats of Skill

Friday, June 08, 2018

Now that Stephen has explained Pathfinder Second Edition's skills and how they work, it's time to look at the goodies you can earn as you level up: skill feats! Every character gets at least 10 skill feats, one at every even-numbered level, though rogues get 20, and you can always take a skill feat instead of a general feat. At their most basic level, skill feats allow you to customize how you use skills in the game, from combat tricks to social exploits, from risk-averse failure prevention to high-risk heroism. If you'd ever rather just have more trained skills than special techniques with the skills you already have, you can always take the Skill Training skill feat to do just that. Otherwise, you're in for a ride full of options, depending on your proficiency rank.

Assurance and Other Shared Feats

Some skill feats are shared across multiple skills. One that will stand out to risk-averse players is Assurance, which allows you to achieve a result of 10, 15, 20, or even 30, depending on your proficiency rank, without rolling. Are you taking a huge penalty or being forced to roll multiple times and use the lowest result? Doesn't matter—with Assurance, you always get the listed result. It's perfect for when you want to be able to automatically succeed at certain tasks, and the kinds of things you can achieve with an automatic 30 are pretty significant, worthy of legendary proficiency.

The other shared skill feats tend to be shared between Arcana, Nature, Occultism, Religion, and sometimes Society and Lore. This is because many of them are based on magic, like Trick Magic Item (allowing you to use an item not meant for you, like a fighter using a wand) and Quick Identification, which lets you identify magic items faster depending on your proficiency rank, eventually requiring only 3 rounds of glancing at an item. The rest of the shared skill feats are based on the Recall Knowledge action, including my favorite, Dubious Knowledge, which gives you information even on a failed check—except some of it is accurate, and some of it is wrong!

Scaling Feats

You might have noticed that Assurance scales based on your proficiency rank in the skill. In fact, many skill feats do, granting truly outstanding results at legendary. For instance, let's look at the Cat Fall skill feat of Acrobatics:

CAT FALL FEAT 1

Prerequisites trained in Acrobatics

Your catlike aerial acrobatics allow you to cushion your fall. Treat all falls as if you fell 10 fewer feet. If you're an expert in Acrobatics, treat falls as 25 feet shorter. If you're a master in Acrobatics, treat them as 50 feet shorter. If you're legendary in Acrobatics, you always land on your feet and don't take damage, regardless of the distance of the fall.

As you can see above, Cat Fall lets you treat all falls as 10 feet shorter, 25 feet shorter if you're an expert, or 50 feet shorter if you're a master. If you're legendary? Yeah, you can fall an unlimited distance and land on your feet, taking no damage. Similarly, a legendary performer can fascinate an unlimited number of people with a Fascinating Performance, scaling up from one person at the start. And these are just a few of the scaling skill feats.

Wondrous Crafters

Want to make a magic item? Great, take Magical Crafting and you can make any magic item—doesn't matter which kind.

MAGICAL CRAFTING FEAT 2

Prerequisites expert in Crafting

You can use the Craft activity to create magic items in addition to mundane ones. Many magic items have special crafting requirements, such as access to certain spells, as listed in the item entry in Chapter 11.

Similarly, there's a skill feat to make alchemical items, and even one to create quick-to-build improvised traps called snares!

Legendary!

Legendary characters can do all sorts of impressive things with their skills, not just using scaling skill feats but also using inherently legendary skill feats. If you're legendary, you can swim like a fish, survive indefinitely in the void of space, steal a suit of full plate off a guard (see Legendary Thief below), constantly sneak everywhere at full speed while performing other tasks (Legendary Sneak, from Monday's blog), give a speech that stops a war in the middle of the battlefield, remove an affliction or permanent condition with a medical miracle (Legendary Medic, also from Monday's blog), speak to any creature with a language instantly through an instinctual pidgin language, completely change your appearance and costume in seconds (see Legendary Impersonator below), squeeze through a hole the size of your head at your full walking speed, decipher codes with only a skim, and more!

[[A]][[A]][[A]]LEGENDARY IMPERSONATOR FEAT 15

Prerequisites legendary in Deception, Quick Disguise

You set up a full disguise with which you can Impersonate someone with incredible speed.

LEGENDARY THIEF FEAT 15

Prerequisites legendary in Thievery, Pickpocket

Your ability to steal items defies belief. You can attempt to Steal an Object that is actively wielded or that would be extremely noticeable or time-consuming to remove (like worn shoes or armor). You must do so slowly and carefully, spending at least 1 minute and significantly longer for items that are normally time-consuming to remove (like armor). Throughout this duration you must have some means of staying hidden, whether under cover of darkness or in a bustling crowd, for example. You take a -5 penalty to your Thievery check. Even if you succeed, if the item is extremely prominent, like a suit of full plate armor, onlookers will quickly notice it's gone after you steal it.

So what sorts of feats are you most excited to perform with your skills? Let me know in the comments section!

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Weather Report wrote:
Unfortunately, for me, I am becoming less and less enthused about PF2, but I am not sure why.

Your spending to much time on the forums. It will do that to you.


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Honestly, I'm glad they've pushed the range of what some characters can do in the level system. My biggest problem with 5e was the dissonance between the characters' power levels and what threats they are presented with. A high level character in 5e is not that much stronger but they are facing threats like the Tarrasque which, by all accounts, are so much above that.

High Level play has always been the playground of the incredible. There are mountain sized foes and city destroyers. Why should the characters be so mundane?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jhaeman wrote:
I'm a bit torn. I do think the master/caster disparity was a real issue that needed to be solved. But I would have preferred an overall lower power setting that isn't quite so super-heroic. On the third hand (!), I understand that marketing PF2 has to be about "look at all these awesome things your character can do!" I'll definitely stick with it because I love Paizo and its APs, but I do wonder if I should give some low-magic, grittier RPGs a try as well--does anyone have some good suggestions?

for so gritty your teeth ache Legend of the Five Rings, dying of a secondary infection after a fight happens to even the hardest characters in that, for a low fantasy european setting Warhammer Fantasy Role Play, that is cthonic horror and pitchforks, and for swashbuckling with a chance of death 7th Sea.


SilverliteSword wrote:

See, this is actually where I'd like to see things go the other way. If the legendary thief could disarm/dearmor enemies during combat, I'd be very happy.

He doesn't have to do it unnoticed, because it's the middle of a fight. He slips around behind the big ogre and just slides his dagger between the metal plates, severing leather straps like he's done this a thousand times. The armor chatters to the ground, no longer usable, and the enemy stares at him in shock. I think it would be cool.

As I said, it's not that I dislike abilities of this sort. People who love them can have them and people who don't can excise them from the game. What does make me raise an eyebrow is the game telling me this isn't magic, but rather a person being extremely skilled. Because it's magic. Stripping the armor off an enemy mid-fight isn't skill. It's magic. Spending [X] minutes hiding in shadows stealing full plate off a knight isn't skill, it's magic. Surviving unassisted in the vaccum of space for, say, more than three minutes isn't determination, it's magic. Falling from ten kilometers high and landing on your feet unscathed isn't skill, it's magic.

If you're going to have this kind of Legendary skills, just go full Earthdawn and stop pretending non-spellcasters aren't magical too. All PC classes are magic, the magic just materialises in different ways. Lets call a spade a spade.


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When “steal the armor off a guard” was mentioned as a legendary feat for thievery, I thought it sounded a little cartoony, but in a good way. Like, if Legendary Proficiency allows you to do the impossible with mundane skills because you’re just that good, sure. But seeing the actual Feat, and how it specifies that it takes a minute or “significantly longer,” you have to stay hidden the entire time... The charm of a guard suddenly realizing he’s naked is gone. All I’m left with is questions about how on earth the he didn’t notice the Thief that’s right there touching him until after she was finished. “Haha, I stole his pants right off his ass!” is cute when it happens in the blink of an eye. When it happens over the course of several minutes, it’s just kinda dumb. And neither feels Legendary to me.

When I think “Legendary Thief,” two things come to mind: Someone like The Gray Fox from Elder Scrolls Oblivion who pulled off the greatest heist in history, or someone like John Mischeif from Abarrat who “once stole the tattoos off of Monkai-Monkai’s arms.”
I’d much prefer a Legend of Thievery be able to steal impossible things through mundane means than to steal mundane things by impossible means.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Unfortunately, for me, I am becoming less and less enthused about PF2, but I am not sure why.
Your spending to much time on the forums. It will do that to you.

I'll leave that to you and the others, ha.


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TheFinish wrote:
SilverliteSword wrote:

See, this is actually where I'd like to see things go the other way. If the legendary thief could disarm/dearmor enemies during combat, I'd be very happy.

He doesn't have to do it unnoticed, because it's the middle of a fight. He slips around behind the big ogre and just slides his dagger between the metal plates, severing leather straps like he's done this a thousand times. The armor chatters to the ground, no longer usable, and the enemy stares at him in shock. I think it would be cool.

As I said, it's not that I dislike abilities of this sort. People who love them can have them and people who don't can excise them from the game. What does make me raise an eyebrow is the game telling me this isn't magic, but rather a person being extremely skilled. Because it's magic. Stripping the armor off an enemy mid-fight isn't skill. It's magic. Spending [X] minutes hiding in shadows stealing full plate off a knight isn't skill, it's magic. Surviving unassisted in the vaccum of space for, say, more than three minutes isn't determination, it's magic. Falling from ten kilometers high and landing on your feet unscathed isn't skill, it's magic.

If you're going to have this kind of Legendary skills, just go full Earthdawn and stop pretending non-spellcasters aren't magical too. All PC classes are magic, the magic just materialises in different ways. Lets call a spade a spade.

I see where you’re coming from. Obviously some of these Legendary tasks are impossible by mundane means. But the word “magic” has certain connotations. That’s why, for example, Psionics, though clearly not mundane, aren’t called magic. I think the word “Legendary” is an important one here. Lots of Legendary or mythological heroes were said to have done unbelievable things, yet most wouldn’t describe them as magical. Like Heracles holding up the sky in Atlas’s absence. Clearly impossible, yet he did it, and I don’t think most folks would describe it as an act of magic.


I like that a Rogue isn't just limited to an opening sneak attack for sneaky fight options. If they can swipe armor or weapons off enemies before combat is initiated, that's a huge advantage to the party.


Yeah! loving the new rogue with all the skill stuff I'm hoping it plays as much like batman as it is seems to be shaping up too.

That sentence seemed awkward but I think I got my point across.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I like the idea of the system, but I think you're overselling the "legendary" proficiency quite a bit. From what I've read, Legendary skills don't become available until like level 19. This means they will never even see the light of day in society play, and home sessions will take years to get there. IIRC even master level is late in the game. So are there options for intentionally scaling up your proficiency, for specializing in a skill so that it is more effective early on? Some of the things you described as legendary skill uses are kind of available to specialists like bards and rogues fairly early in the game, at least earlier that what it seems like here. If not thwn this is all just fluff, as the skill system otherwise seems pretty weak


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Also, I'll point out that even for stuff like a chain shirt, most creatures have to blink. If a rogue can get the shirt off without it making noise or touching the face of the mark, then she just needs to do it very fast in that moment.

It is ridiculous, but Batman has done stuff like switch cups with someone across the table when they blinked.

Catfall, I would probably just picture it as a ludicrously good bend and roll. People can leap from pretty solid heights with the right techniques IRL, this would be that dialed up to 11. Or if they have a cloak, they could just have it function as a parachute. Honestly, coming up with ways to justify this stuff in game sounds really fun.


TheAndyman wrote:
I like the idea of the system, but I think you're overselling the "legendary" proficiency quite a bit. From what I've read, Legendary skills don't become available until like level 19. This means they will never even see the light of day in society play, and home sessions will take years to get there. IIRC even master level is late in the game. So are there options for intentionally scaling up your proficiency, for specializing in a skill so that it is more effective early on? Some of the things you described as legendary skill uses are kind of available to specialists like bards and rogues fairly early in the game, at least earlier that what it seems like here. If not thwn this is all just fluff, as the skill system otherwise seems pretty weak

Well if they balance correctly its possible society games could go to higher levels. (Granted I don't have much experience with society play but I don't see why not.) Also I think its more like 15th level then 19th.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
I like that a Rogue isn't just limited to an opening sneak attack for sneaky fight options.

Yes, I do not like Sneak Attack locked in.


TheAndyman wrote:
I like the idea of the system, but I think you're overselling the "legendary" proficiency quite a bit. From what I've read, Legendary skills don't become available until like level 19. This means they will never even see the light of day in society play, and home sessions will take years to get there. IIRC even master level is late in the game. So are there options for intentionally scaling up your proficiency, for specializing in a skill so that it is more effective early on? Some of the things you described as legendary skill uses are kind of available to specialists like bards and rogues fairly early in the game, at least earlier that what it seems like here. If not thwn this is all just fluff, as the skill system otherwise seems pretty weak

When you get certain Legendary Proficiencies varies.

Level 15 is when the Legendary Proficiency hits with skills.

Level 13 is when a Fighter gets Legendary Proficiency with his or her weapon/s of choice and level 19 with all weapons.

Level 19 is when a Wizard's Proficiency in Arcane Spellcasting goes up to Legendary (10th Level Spells are unlocked via a feat).

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"Scaling Feats"

You have my attention on this feat-ure!


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DeciusNero wrote:

"Scaling Feats"

You have my attention on this feat-ure!

Yeah, definitely. The idea that a feat you took early on might not become obsolete with time, but improve as you do in a skill is great.


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Charlaquin wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
SilverliteSword wrote:

See, this is actually where I'd like to see things go the other way. If the legendary thief could disarm/dearmor enemies during combat, I'd be very happy.

He doesn't have to do it unnoticed, because it's the middle of a fight. He slips around behind the big ogre and just slides his dagger between the metal plates, severing leather straps like he's done this a thousand times. The armor chatters to the ground, no longer usable, and the enemy stares at him in shock. I think it would be cool.

As I said, it's not that I dislike abilities of this sort. People who love them can have them and people who don't can excise them from the game. What does make me raise an eyebrow is the game telling me this isn't magic, but rather a person being extremely skilled. Because it's magic. Stripping the armor off an enemy mid-fight isn't skill. It's magic. Spending [X] minutes hiding in shadows stealing full plate off a knight isn't skill, it's magic. Surviving unassisted in the vaccum of space for, say, more than three minutes isn't determination, it's magic. Falling from ten kilometers high and landing on your feet unscathed isn't skill, it's magic.

If you're going to have this kind of Legendary skills, just go full Earthdawn and stop pretending non-spellcasters aren't magical too. All PC classes are magic, the magic just materialises in different ways. Lets call a spade a spade.

I see where you’re coming from. Obviously some of these Legendary tasks are impossible by mundane means. But the word “magic” has certain connotations. That’s why, for example, Psionics, though clearly not mundane, aren’t called magic. I think the word “Legendary” is an important one here. Lots of Legendary or mythological heroes were said to have done unbelievable things, yet most wouldn’t describe them as magical. Like Heracles holding up the sky in Atlas’s absence. Clearly impossible, yet he did it, and I don’t think most folks would describe it as an act of magic.

I disagree, it's obviously magic, Heracles was a demigod, Atlas a titan, it's clearly magical. I'm not saying it's a spell, an incantation, but it is certainly magical. If they are not giving us an in-world reason for how these abilities come about (see, I said how they come about, not how they work, bc for instance no one explains how spells work), then I to me they should at least slap a Supernatural tag there or whatever the equivalent of that would be in 2nd ed. I'm not having my wizard's magic not working in an antimagic field while the fighter still is a demigod under the beholder's gaze. Also, shadow dancers were not spellcasters in 1ed, but they clearly slapped the SLA and Su tags on their ability, it'd be only fair for the same to be done to Legendary abilities.

Last, but not least, I found the description of the rogue dismantling an enemy's armor in full sight actively fighting against them to do it much more compeling and believable, I like it.


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I will say it does seem supernatural. I can't argue with that.


Mewzard wrote:
DeciusNero wrote:

"Scaling Feats"

You have my attention on this feat-ure!

Yeah, definitely. The idea that a feat you took early on might not become obsolete with time, but improve as you do in a skill is great.

YES! That would be great! While we are at it, bring scaling spells back for Corellon's sake!

Also, Paizo, could we get Corellon Larethian, Mordenkainen, Melf Brightflame, and the time wizard from Legacy of the First World Player Companion as available avatars?


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Isn't some of those D&D trademarked?


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Milo v3 wrote:
... I am so confused by people who seem to be acting as if they're forced to play high level games when they seem to have issues with high level gameplay. Especially when it's so easy to avoid.

Agreed. It’s what, level 15 to be able to reach the rank for the +3, then level 16 when you get the Skill Feat to put into Cat Fall or Legendary Medic?

I’ve been playing with my group for like 8 years or so now, and the game normally falls apart way before then. I think that in all that time the only group to ever reach level 16 was during Rise of the Runelords during the last book. At that point I was actively encouraging the PCs demigod status!

I want levels 16-20 to FEEL legendary. I’m planning to rebuilding RotR’s final fight in PF2’s system once the Playtest is out, and for my Players to rebuild their level 18-20 characters. I want the characters to FEEL legendary because in my Golarion, these characters ARE legends and household names now.


NetoD20 wrote:
Heracles was a demigod, Atlas a titan, it's clearly magical.

Not magical, god-blood, not Into the whole because we have a high BAB and Str we are are like Hercules vibe.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Isn't some of those D&D trademarked?

It is, however you will see avatar of Elminster and Raistlin and stuff from Dragon and Dungeon Magazine around, so probably they can use stuff D&D stuff that they published themselves, I don't know, really.

Also, somehow Paizo owns and old font used in D&D books, Greyhawk Uncial. How does that work? It's matter for another thread. Sorry for the digression everybody!


Weather Report wrote:
NetoD20 wrote:
Heracles was a demigod, Atlas a titan, it's clearly magical.
Not magical, god-blood, not Into the whole because we have a high BAB and Str we are are like Hercules vibe.

What?? How does god-blood isn't magical?? Everything that's supernatural is magical! In my opinion, anyway... I find that saying otherwise highly diminishes magic. Makes me sad... like for reals. Of course you don't have to agree with me, kind sir. I'm sorry, yet again I digress.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The tier is called Legendary. It’s on the can. High levels are Mythic lite (in a good way, it seems to me).


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Seems like a semantics issue at this point.


The Chosen of Corellon can now change their sex after a long rest; fun in Vegas.


Weather Report wrote:
The Chosen of Corellon can now change their sex after a long rest; fun in Vegas.

Not at all the subject, but I LOVED THAT.

Because you have a matriarchal society, the drow, what would be the most subversive thing to that society?? BECOMING FEMALE! GENIUS!!
Corellon <3 <3 <3

My elf wizard doesn't worship gods, he's far too proud for that, but damn does he kinda sorta respect Corellon in a tsundere kinda way.


Mewzard wrote:
TheAndyman wrote:
I like the idea of the system, but I think you're overselling the "legendary" proficiency quite a bit. From what I've read, Legendary skills don't become available until like level 19. This means they will never even see the light of day in society play, and home sessions will take years to get there. IIRC even master level is late in the game. So are there options for intentionally scaling up your proficiency, for specializing in a skill so that it is more effective early on? Some of the things you described as legendary skill uses are kind of available to specialists like bards and rogues fairly early in the game, at least earlier that what it seems like here. If not thwn this is all just fluff, as the skill system otherwise seems pretty weak

When you get certain Legendary Proficiencies varies.

Level 15 is when the Legendary Proficiency hits with skills.

Level 13 is when a Fighter gets Legendary Proficiency with his or her weapon/s of choice and level 19 with all weapons.

Level 19 is when a Wizard's Proficiency in Arcane Spellcasting goes up to Legendary (10th Level Spells are unlocked via a feat).

Wait a sec, you're telling a need to spend a feat to get 10th level spells?? wuuuuuutt Where is that referenced?


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TheFinish wrote:
If you're going to have this kind of Legendary skills, just go full Earthdawn and stop pretending non-spellcasters aren't magical too. All PC classes are magic, the magic just materialises in different ways. Lets call a spade a spade.

I don't know if it's worthwhile to try to draw a distinction between what is or isn't magic, I just think it's good that parties won't need to rely on having a spellcaster around to do cool or necessary stuff anymore. Like "speaking to anybody you meet" no longer requires a specific spell, and that's good.


NetoD20 wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
The Chosen of Corellon can now change their sex after a long rest; fun in Vegas.

Not at all the subject, but I LOVED THAT.

Because you have a matriarchal society, the drow, what would be the most subversive thing to that society?? BECOMING FEMALE! GENIUS!!
Corellon <3 <3 <3

My elf wizard doesn't worship gods, he's far too proud for that, but damn does he kinda sorta respect Corellon in a tsundere kinda way.

Cool, but I would never present it to the trans-person in my group, talk about forced.


NetoD20 wrote:
Wait a sec, you're telling a need to spend a feat to get 10th level spells?? wuuuuuutt Where is that referenced?

I believe it was mentioned in the Druid/Paizo Con topic:

"Except 10th level spells aren't part of the regular progression (which would give you 2 at 19th level and 3 at 20th), but a 20th level feat selection that only gets you one a day."

But it's not surprising, given some tenth level spells include destroying an entire environment, turning into an Avatar of your god, and a spell as described sounds like turning into a Tarrasque.

I imagine you have to limit that kind of stuff more than the normal spells.


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God Blood is only magical because it doesn't exist in our world. Almost everything every character in Pathfinder above level 8 does falls into that description. It ISN'T magic in a world were those things are a part of reality.

In the same way if you showed a person of 150years ago your house they would marvel at all the magic that inhabits basically every object. Because in their reality the technology is not a native expectation. Golarion is just as different for us, as we are to the folks of 5 generations ago.


NetoD20 wrote:
Wait a sec, you're telling a need to spend a feat to get 10th level spells?? wuuuuuutt Where is that referenced?

As I understand it you will get 10th level spell slots automatically (so you can heighten things that high) but each 10th level spell (things on the order of Wish) will cost a class feat. It came up in the Wizard preview.


Malk_Content wrote:

God Blood is only magical because it doesn't exist in our world. Almost everything every character in Pathfinder above level 8 does falls into that description. It ISN'T magic in a world were those things are a part of reality.

In the same way if you showed a person of 150years ago your house they would marvel at all the magic that inhabits basically every object. Because in their reality the technology is not a native expectation. Golarion is just as different for us, as we are to the folks of 5 generations ago.

That doesn't make any sense, just because something is common it doesn't mean that it isn't magical. And your examples fall very short, you're telling me that stuff that is common/everywhere isn't magical, but, your examples of god blood and level 8+ abilities are far less common than say 1st level spells.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ah, somebody smoked out all the people who think that linear fighters quadratic wizards is a good thing.

Silver Crusade

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Rek Rollington wrote:

Easy recipe to become legendary with every skill:

100 Push-Ups!
100 Sit-Ups!
100 Squats!
10KM Running!
Every! Single! Day!

G%$#&!it, now I want a feat which allows you to have a chance of killing something with one punch but with a drawback that it makes myou bold. XD


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Gorbacz wrote:
Ah, somebody smoked out all the people who think that linear fighters quadratic wizards is a good thing.

I don't think it really was that hard to smoke them out. Very minimal amount of smoke really. Like maybe someone took a puff of there vape and exhaled to hard.


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It isn't about commonality. Our definition of what constitutes Magic is different from the in setting ideas of what Magic is. Magic is a specific thing with specific in universe rules. It does not mean outside of the natural, in fact it is an extension of many natural laws. Some sects might include certain parts of it outside of that (Pharasmans and Undead for example.)

So the Legendary abilities might be "Magic" by our world view, but they don't have to be "Magic" by the in setting world view. Just like the wonders of modern technology would be "Magic" by the PoV of almost everyone in human history, but isn't. We operate by entirely different rule structures.

EDIT: Although to be fair I personally (head canon) include Legendary abilities (or just most class features over a certain level) to be part of a person becoming more infused with ambient magic as they become a locus of fate/destiny/whatever, in a similair way that Resonance represents that (once again Head Cannon, we don't have the full description of Resonance yet.) But those are my personal explanations for it and I wouldn't want them tied to that by adding a [Su] tag (especially as those don't exist anymore) and all the mechanics that entails.

Liberty's Edge

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Well if they balance correctly its possible society games could go to higher levels. (Granted I don't have much experience with society play but I don't see why not.) Also I think its more like 15th level then 19th.

This is correct. Legendary Skills kick in at 15th level, so early enough that they'll see some actual play, but also at the same time the Wizard is getting 8th level spells.

Mewzard wrote:
Level 19 is when a Wizard's Proficiency in Arcane Spellcasting goes up to Legendary (10th Level Spells are unlocked via a feat).

Actually, this is when the Cleric gets Legendary Spellcasting. We don't know when the Wizard gets it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a tad earlier.

NetoD20 wrote:
Wait a sec, you're telling a need to spend a feat to get 10th level spells?? wuuuuuutt Where is that referenced?

You do, and the Feat is 20th level only. It's been stated a few different places by designers, though it doesn't seem to have shown up in a Blog yet.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
As I understand it you will get 10th level spell slots automatically (so you can heighten things that high) but each 10th level spell (things on the order of Wish) will cost a class feat. It came up in the Wizard preview.

This is not correct. You get no 10th level slots normally, with the Feat giving you one such slot per day.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Actually, this is when the Cleric gets Legendary Spellcasting. We don't know when the Wizard gets it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a tad earlier.

We do know, the Wizard Blog directly stated it:

"As a wizard goes up in level, they gain more spells that they can cast (either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level) and their proficiency at spellcasting also increases. They start as trained, but rise to the rank of legendary at 19th level."


Mewzard wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Actually, this is when the Cleric gets Legendary Spellcasting. We don't know when the Wizard gets it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a tad earlier.

We do know, the Wizard Blog directly stated it:

"As a wizard goes up in level, they gain more spells that they can cast (either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level) and their proficiency at spellcasting also increases. They start as trained, but rise to the rank of legendary at 19th level."

Hmm it could be a generalization and they forgot to mention that 10th level spells worked differently... hard to say.


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TheFinish wrote:
Falling from ten kilometers high and landing on your feet unscathed isn't skill, it's magic.
Actually, it's extraordinary
Quote:
Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When first gaining this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his monk level until at 20th level he can use a nearby wall to slow his descent and fall any distance without harm.

The only difference is you don't need a wall to fall the 10 KMs unscathed in PF2e. Is that really going to be the make or break though? A wall? Really?

I'd be completely okay with a monk who has cat fall. A rogue whose taken various magic themed feats would be okay as well. A fighter whose concentrated on his skill of fighting with a sword with no magical influence at all? Not so much (although an Eldritch Knight archetype would be completely okay as well).

Liberty's Edge

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NetoD20 wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:

God Blood is only magical because it doesn't exist in our world. Almost everything every character in Pathfinder above level 8 does falls into that description. It ISN'T magic in a world were those things are a part of reality.

In the same way if you showed a person of 150years ago your house they would marvel at all the magic that inhabits basically every object. Because in their reality the technology is not a native expectation. Golarion is just as different for us, as we are to the folks of 5 generations ago.

That doesn't make any sense, just because something is common it doesn't mean that it isn't magical. And your examples fall very short, you're telling me that stuff that is common/everywhere isn't magical, but, your examples of god blood and level 8+ abilities are far less common than say 1st level spells.

Batman is not magical in-universe despite doing things that are impossible for real life people to do. He does those because, in the DC universe, human capabilities clearly have a higher cap than they do in real life.

Iron Man is not magical in-universe, again despite doing things that are blatantly and obviously impossible for human beings in the real world. He lives in a world where a non-magical person can do those things, because baseline human capabilities are simply different from the real world in the world he lives in.

Indiana Jones and almost every action movie protagonist ever also do things that are flatly impossible in real life and yet are not superhuman or magical in-universe. They do them because they live in a universe where, once again, people are capable of such things without magic.

Pathfinder is such a world. It's a world where someone can do things that seem impossible to us with raw determination and/or natural ability, no magic needed. And there's no reason to find that difficult to believe given that giants (basically a physical impossibility) exist, griffons and dragons can fly in an AMF (this is also physically impossible), an average 8th level Fighter can out-wrestle a rhinoceros, and tough people can survive being immersed in lava.

Liberty's Edge

Mewzard wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Actually, this is when the Cleric gets Legendary Spellcasting. We don't know when the Wizard gets it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a tad earlier.

We do know, the Wizard Blog directly stated it:

"As a wizard goes up in level, they gain more spells that they can cast (either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level) and their proficiency at spellcasting also increases. They start as trained, but rise to the rank of legendary at 19th level."

You're totally right. I dunno how I missed that.


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I don't really get why the things described so far can't be extraordinary, when things like jumping further than humanly possible, giant creatures, punching harder than a giant warhammer, you can talk with dolphins and spiders, you can drink a poison and then dodge it to ignore the effects, dodging explosions that fully engulf you, a human running 128 km/h (80 mph), dragons flying, dodging a disease that has already infected your body, and hit points are fine as extraordinary.


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Extraordinary or super natural work for me. I could see someone doing something like that and then I would think one of those two but not necessarily jump to magic unless I saw like sparkles or something.


Malk_Content wrote:

It isn't about commonality. Our definition of what constitutes Magic is different from the in setting ideas of what Magic is. Magic is a specific thing with specific in universe rules. It does not mean outside of the natural, in fact it is an extension of many natural laws. Some sects might include certain parts of it outside of that (Pharasmans and Undead for example.)

So the Legendary abilities might be "Magic" by our world view, but they don't have to be "Magic" by the in setting world view. Just like the wonders of modern technology would be "Magic" by the PoV of almost everyone in human history, but isn't. We operate by entirely different rule structures.

EDIT: Although to be fair I personally (head canon) include Legendary abilities (or just most class features over a certain level) to be part of a person becoming more infused with ambient magic as they become a locus of fate/destiny/whatever, in a similair way that Resonance represents that (once again Head Cannon, we don't have the full description of Resonance yet.) But those are my personal explanations for it and I wouldn't want them tied to that by adding a [Su] tag (especially as those don't exist anymore) and all the mechanics that entails.

I disagree, magic should have a definition beyond how we think about magic. Of course, we can have different opinions of what constitutes magic, and that's okay. To me it's anything that's supernatural, even if the natural world is full of supernatural phenomena. Supernatural is not anti-natural or something apart from what is natural, the way I see it supernatural is just something that's above what is natural, not necessarily apart or in opposition. It's anything that's not mundane, not physical. It comes from what is metaphysical and immaterial. It isn't obliged to work under the rules that govern the mundane, physical elements of the universe.

What's curious to me, though, is that all your personal explanations after the "Edit" lead me to believe that you'd support the Su tag, yet you say you don't want it.


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Quandary wrote:
BTW, Dubious Knowledge sounds fun, although IMHO something like this should be rolled into normal Knowledge checks (although a feat then enhancing it is fine). Like "you think this is a dragon of some kind" (except it's not).

My impression of Dubious Knowledge was that it will give you a mix of true and false facts on a Knowledge miss, instead of just "You don't know" or just false stuff. So you can get things like "That's a cockatrice, it'll petrify you if you look into its eyes" or "Crap! A vampire! It can turn to mist or into a rat."

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