Learning Takes a Lifetime

Monday, June 04, 2018

While the kind of armor you wear, weapon you wield, and spells you know can be important measures of your character's power, your choice in skills is indicative of your character's depth. Is your character good at feats of acrobatics? Can they recall knowledge with scholastic effortlessness? Are they the sneakiest sneaker in the sneakerverse? Your skills may aid you in the thick of a fight, but they also enhance your effect on the world when the ringing of steel and the whizzing of spells subside.

The Pathfinder Playtest deals with skills a bit differently than the first edition did. First and foremost, we have cut down the skill list to 17 base skills (down from 35 base skills in Pathfinder First Edition). Now, I say "base skills" because the Lore skill can be split into numerous different lores, but for many purposes, like for this blog post, we can describe it as being a single skill.

Much of the reduction came from consolidation; for instance, we put the general functions of Use Magic Device into each of the various knowledge skills that focus on magical traditions, and we wrapped up a bunch of Strength-based skills into a general Athletics skill. In most cases, we coupled the consolidation with being a tad more generous in the number of skills you can be trained in (for instance, the fighter has 3 + Intelligence modifier trained skills in the playtest rather than 2 + Int in Pathfinder First Edition), making it easier to have a well-rounded character.

So what exactly are these 17 skills? They (and their key ability scores) are: Acrobatics (Dex), Arcana (Int), Athletics (Str), Crafting (Int), Deception (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidation (Cha), Lore (Int), Medicine (Wis), Nature (Wis), Occultism (Int), Performance (Cha), Religion (Wis), Society (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Thievery (Dex).

Skill Proficiency

Like many things in the Pathfinder Playtest, skills interact with the proficiency system. While a detailed description of the system can be found here, here's the nitty-gritty. Your character can be untrained, trained, an expert, a master, or legendary in a skill. Being untrained grants you a modifier of your level - 2, while being trained grants you a bonus equal to your level, expert a bonus equal to your level + 1, master a bonus equal to your level + 2, and legendary a bonus equal to your level + 3. Then, of course, you add your ability modifier in the key ability for that skill, and apply any other bonuses or penalties. But the new skill system is more than just the bonus you gain. Each level of proficiency unlocks skill uses that are either intrinsic to the skill itself or that are uses you select as your character advances.

Skill Uses

To give you an idea of what this means, let's take a quick look at the Medicine skill. Whether you are trained in Medicine or not, you can Administer First Aid.

[[A]] Administer First Aid

Manipulate

Requirements You must have healer's tools.

You perform first aid on an adjacent creature that is at 0 Hit Points in an attempt to stabilize or revive it. You can also perform first aid on an adjacent creature taking persistent bleed damage. The DC for either is 15. If a creature is both dying and bleeding, choose which one you're trying to end before you roll. You can Administer First Aid again to attempt to remedy the other.

Success The creature at 0 Hit Points gains 1 Hit Point, or you end the persistent bleed damage.

Critical Failure A creature with 0 Hit Points has its dying condition increased by 1. A creature with persistent bleed damage takes damage equal to the amount of its persistent bleed damage.

Basically, this skill use allows anyone who has a healing kit to treat another creature who is dying or suffering from bleed damage, which is super useful. Of course, being untrained reduces your chances to save your friend and increases your chances to hurt them accidentally, but it's worth trying in a pinch. If you are trained in the skill, not only do your chances to help a friend by Administering First Aid increase, but you also gain the ability to use the skill to Treat Disease and Treat Poison, something that someone untrained in the skill cannot do.

Skill Feats

These default uses are just the beginning. As you increase in level, you periodically gain skill feats, usually at even-numbered levels (unless you're a rogue—they gain skill feats every level instead). Skill feats are a subsection of general feats, which means that any character can take them as long as they meet the prerequisites. Moving forward with the example of the Medicine skill, as long as you are at least trained in Medicine, you can take the Battle Medic skill feat. This feat allows you to apply straight-up healing to an ally through nonmagical means, which is nice when your cleric is knocked to the ground or has run out of uses of channel energy.

For a higher-level example, Robust Recovery is a Medicine skill feat you can take after becoming an expert in that skill, and increases the bonus to saving throws against poison and diseases when you treat creatures with those trained skill uses. When you become legendary in Medicine, you can gain this skill feat:

Legendary Medic Feat 15

General, Skill

Prerequisites legendary in Medicine

You've invented new medical procedures or discovered ancient techniques that can achieve nearly miraculous results. Once per day for each target, you can spend 1 hour treating the target and attempt a Medicine check to remove a disease or the blinded, deafened, drained, or enervated condition. Use the DC of the disease or of the spell or effect that created the condition. If the effect's source is an artifact, a creature above 20th level, or other similarly powerful source, increase the DC by 5.

The more powerful or useful the skill feat, the higher the proficiency required to take it. Legendary Medic grants you the ability to perform amazing feats of healing through skill and experience rather than magic, but you must gain that skill and experience first. Of course, the Medicine skill is just the tip of the iceberg. This structure is replicated with every skill, including nearly every rogue's favorite—Stealth.

Stealth is a bit of an outlier in that all of its initial uses can be attempted untrained, but training and later proficiency in the skill yields some very subversive results. The Quiet Allies skill feat allows you to use your expertise in Stealth to reduce those pesky armor check penalties on allies' skill checks, while Swift Sneak allows a master in Stealth to move at their full speed when they Sneak. Upon becoming legendary, you further enhance your skill by no longer needing to specifically declare the sneaking exploration tactic when you are in exploration mode, allowing you to sneak everywhere. You're just that good.

But this is all just the start. Mark will take up more aspects of what you can do with skill feats this Friday!

Constant Progress

Like many aspects of the Pathfinder Playtest, the goal of skills is not only to gain the greatest bonus, but also for you to expand outward and create a unique character who uses skills the way you want them to be used. Much like how ancestry feats allow you to choose the type of human, dwarf, elf, or whatever you want to play, the proficiency and skill feat system will enable you to determine what kind of knowledgeable, athletic, or sneaky character you want to play. Over time, this system gives us the opportunity to add more skill uses by way of skill feats, which will allow the game to become more dynamic as we add options. This also allows you to continue to grow your skills in new and surprising ways without us having to pull out the wires of the underlying skill, which is something we are always loath to do. In this way, as the game progresses, we can expand skill options in an open-ended way, without invalidating the gateway mechanics.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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I like it.


What happened to sense motive? What umbrella is it under?

Sovereign Court

LeesusFreak wrote:
What happened to sense motive? What umbrella is it under?

If I had to guess, I'd say Deception.


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KitsuneWarlock wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
What happened to sense motive? What umbrella is it under?
If I had to guess, I'd say Deception.

Unless your Intimidation is your resistance to being intimidated, that doesn't seem continuous...


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LeesusFreak wrote:
KitsuneWarlock wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
What happened to sense motive? What umbrella is it under?
If I had to guess, I'd say Deception.
Unless your Intimidation is your resistance to being intimidated, that doesn't seem continuous...

It is rolled in to perception or at least it was at Paizo con.


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Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.


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"You don't sneak around in broad daylight, you don't sneak around in church!"
-The Gamers, Dead Gentlemen Productions

Well I guess now you can.


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Not bad, the legendary feats are. But seriously, fighters and other non-casters should have above average skill points compared to casters; +1 compared to PF1 is a bit meh...


9 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.

The main benefit I see is that it opens up condition removal to classes other than cleric/paladin, making non-standard party composition more viable.


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Joana wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
The main benefit I see is that it opens up condition removal to classes other than cleric/paladin, making non-standard party composition more viable.

Only at high levels. If it required Expert or possibly Master, I could see the point, but this might just be adding rogue to that list.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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How do you learn languages, society? And if so, then what about other uses of the linguistics skill like creating forgeries or deciphering stuff?

Also, not a fan of the feat name "Legendary Medic" which can only be taken with "Legendary proficiency in medicine". Seems likely to cause confusion as to which is being talked about. I'd much prefer a name like "Miraculous Recovery" or "Miracle Treatment".


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I'm not clear as to why skill ranks are still being used instead of moving completely to a skill feat system. I like the concept of skill feats adding depth to the broader 17 skill categories.

Lantern Lodge

Emeric Tusan wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
KitsuneWarlock wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
What happened to sense motive? What umbrella is it under?
If I had to guess, I'd say Deception.
Unless your Intimidation is your resistance to being intimidated, that doesn't seem continuous...
It is rolled in to perception or at least it was at Paizo con.

Perception is gone from the list above?

So the question is where does Sense Motive and Perception fall into now?


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I've been positive on the potential for this from the beginning! I just hope that things any character trained in a given skill should be able to do don't get locked behind feats. And I also hope that the proficiency ranks where feats do open up make intuitive sense.

Still no word on whether taking 10 or taking 20 are still a thing...

Shouldn't the DC for First Aid increase the closer someone is to dying? At the very least, the DC to stanch a bleeding wound should be based on the severity of the wound. A gusher dealing 6d6 bleed every round should not be the same DC 15 as bleed 1.

I was thinking curing mundane things like disease or Blindness would be a Master feat rather than a Legendary one. Drained, enervated, cursed at legendary, sure. But stuff within the realm of tens if not hundreds of thousands of real world doctors should not be the exclusive domain of level 15+ legends.

The Stealth feats sound good!

Here's hoping every skill gets lots of love in the CRB, and not just a few developer pet skills...


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joana wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
The main benefit I see is that it opens up condition removal to classes other than cleric/paladin, making non-standard party composition more viable.

The issue here is that legendary Medic requires legendary proficiency in medicine, which means you won't have this feat until level 15. The real value for the feat seems to be to removing permanent drained/enervated effects across the whole party, presumably without expending money like one had to for restoration spell that it likely still has.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Secane wrote:
Emeric Tusan wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
KitsuneWarlock wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
What happened to sense motive? What umbrella is it under?
If I had to guess, I'd say Deception.
Unless your Intimidation is your resistance to being intimidated, that doesn't seem continuous...
It is rolled in to perception or at least it was at Paizo con.

Perception is gone from the list above?

So the question is where does Sense Motive and Perception fall into now?

everyone gets perception and it levels based on class I believe.


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The Sideromancer wrote:
Joana wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
The main benefit I see is that it opens up condition removal to classes other than cleric/paladin, making non-standard party composition more viable.
Only at high levels. If it required Expert or possibly Master, I could see the point, but this might just be adding rogue to that list.

This. Legendary Heal feats should be along the lines of Raise Dead/Breath of Life, or completely restoring someone to full hit points instantly. Things that are beyond the bounds of the physically possible.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Secane wrote:
Emeric Tusan wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
KitsuneWarlock wrote:
LeesusFreak wrote:
What happened to sense motive? What umbrella is it under?
If I had to guess, I'd say Deception.
Unless your Intimidation is your resistance to being intimidated, that doesn't seem continuous...
It is rolled in to perception or at least it was at Paizo con.

Perception is gone from the list above?

So the question is where does Sense Motive and Perception fall into now?

Perception isn't a skill, it is just something every character has.


So how training is gained? The blog mentioned fighters has 3 + Int trained skills, but is that for level?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I was thinking curing mundane things like disease or Blindness would be a Master feat rather than a Legendary one. Drained, enervated, cursed at legendary, sure. But stuff within the realm of tens if not hundreds of thousands of real world doctors should not be the exclusive domain of level 15+ legends.

It is a legendary feat to completely cure a disease in an hour. Anyone trained in the skill can treat a disease and hasten it's cure, no feat required.


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edduardco wrote:
So how training is gained? The blog mentioned fighters has 3 + Int trained skills, but is that for level?

It was mentioned in the level up blog that (Cleric's at least) get a skill increase every other level where they can increase their proficiency level in a skill.


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Lucas Yew wrote:
Not bad, the legendary feats are. But seriously, fighters and other non-casters should have above average skill points compared to casters; +1 compared to PF1 is a bit meh...

It's not just +1 compared to PF1. The maximum number of skills has been reduced by nearly half, and many useful ones are rolled together. Perception isn't something that takes your skill ranks at all anymore. It looks like just +1 over PF1 at first glance, but that ignores all of the changes which make it more significant. In PF1 if you wanted your fighter to be good at climbing, swimming, noticing things, and reading people, that took 4 skill ranks. In PF2 that requires just 1. (EDIT: that is, of course, assuming that sense motive has been rolled into perception and not deception. Sense motive may not have had the same publicity as a "necessary skill" in PF1 as perception did, but it should have)

----------------------------

Overall I really like where this is going. It's good to know that skills have things that anyone can do, and it's great to know that a bunch of different people who are all of the same proficiency level in the same skill might still have vastly different abilities. That ability to carve out your own niche in whatever your focus might be is very much my favorite thing about the PF2 design ethos.

----------------------------

I still wish that the Thievery skill was called something else, though. That's the only thing so far that I haven't come around on. It irks me so.

Sovereign Court

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edduardco wrote:
So how training is gained? The blog mentioned fighters has 3 + Int trained skills, but is that for level?
Proficiency Blog wrote:

Gaining Proficiency

For most of your statistics, your starting proficiencies are determined by your class, though for skills, you can assign your ranks as you choose among any of the skills in the game. When it comes to leveling up, all classes gain skill rank increases at every odd-numbered level (or more often for the rogue!). Your other proficiencies increase based on your class and feat choices.


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FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.

I think it probably depends how early various classes can get legendary proficiency as a medic. At the levels this is available having more options about who can clear some nasty conditions is useful. Also curing blindness through purely non magical means is pretty legendary.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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The more I think about skill feats, the more I wonder if Perception not being a skill makes sense. Doesn't that preclude Perception skill feats?

I guess you could have general feats that unlock new abilities for Perception, but I think you'd have a much richer system if you integrated Perception as a skill, and everyone automatically starts with it trained. Then you could allow people who want to be extra good at it gain proficiency in it for the numerical bonus, as well as have skill feats for it - where a Legendary one might be basically tremor sense, a master one could be automatically detecting the square an invisible character is in within 30 feet, and an expert one being ability to passively roll to spot secret doors if you pass within 5 feet as examples.


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Quote:
and we wrapped up a bunch of Strength-based skills into a general Athletics skill.

So the only 2 strength-based skills in the game?


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kaid wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
I think it probably depends how early various classes can get legendary proficiency as a medic. At the levels this is available having more options about who can clear some nasty conditions is useful. Also curing blindness through purely non magical means is pretty legendary.

Unless Feat 15 means that it requires level 15 as an additional prerequisite. That formatting seems to indicate that it is a level 15 feat though we don't know what that would actually mean. Maybe feat levels are different from character levels, spell levels are.


Bardarok wrote:
edduardco wrote:
So how training is gained? The blog mentioned fighters has 3 + Int trained skills, but is that for level?
It was mentioned in the level up blog that (Cleric's at least) get a skill increase every other level where they can increase their proficiency level in a skill.

Thanks Bardarok and KignOfAnything

But, can we be sure that skill ranks increases just by one each odd level? If yes that is kind of disappointing, I would expect to keep adding Int.


Lucas Yew wrote:
Not bad, the legendary feats are. But seriously, fighters and other non-casters should have above average skill points compared to casters; +1 compared to PF1 is a bit meh...

I think it's also the fact that the skill list has been halved in size and that you simply need to be trained in a skill - number of ranks in that no longer matter.

I sincerely hope that the number of skills you're trained in each level aren't quite that high. With 12 Int, a fighter will be trained in every skill by level 5, and might start making rogues look obsolete. This is less true given skill feats, of course, but still applicable to other classes. Characters getting their set amount at level 1, and then 2 every level after probably sounds like a solution which wouldn't result in everyone being legendary on every skill at level 20.

Edit: I see the proficiency blog covered exactly how it works, but the exact amount gained probably is going to be something that is going to be heavily looked at in the playtest.


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kaid wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
I think it probably depends how early various classes can get legendary proficiency as a medic. At the levels this is available having more options about who can clear some nasty conditions is useful. Also curing blindness through purely non magical means is pretty legendary.

Not if you're curing a lvl 3 condition at lvl 15. Also, not available in combat.

Dark Archive

Lucas Yew wrote:
Not bad, the legendary feats are. But seriously, fighters and other non-casters should have above average skill points compared to casters; +1 compared to PF1 is a bit meh...

Gotta remember though that the total skill list is half the size and Perception is automatic now, so 3+INT is more like 6+INT and free ranks in Perception.


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kaid wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
I think it probably depends how early various classes can get legendary proficiency as a medic. At the levels this is available having more options about who can clear some nasty conditions is useful. Also curing blindness through purely non magical means is pretty legendary.

It's been hinted, if not outright stated (there's a lot of info to keep track of), that Legendary turns on at or around level 15. The fact that a Legendary Skill Feat is Feat level 15 supports that.


edduardco wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
edduardco wrote:
So how training is gained? The blog mentioned fighters has 3 + Int trained skills, but is that for level?
It was mentioned in the level up blog that (Cleric's at least) get a skill increase every other level where they can increase their proficiency level in a skill.

Thanks Bardarok and KignOfAnything

But, can we be sure that skill ranks increases just by one each odd level? If yes that is kind of disappointing, I would expect to keep adding Int.

Its not as bad as all that, the bonus for all skills (trained and untrained) increase by one every level. So skill ranks are levels of proficiency in the new system which maxes out at rank 4 (legendary). I also assume that you get a bonus skill rank when you improve intelligence.


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Honestly, these feats sound kinda lame.

I was expecting Legendary Medicine to do something like bring people back from the dead on a DC 30-40 check if they "died" in the last minute, not remove stuff that a mid level caster can do with a spell.

Legendary Sneak is "always sneaking". That's it? Why can't I just tell my GM, unless I say otherwise, my character is always being sneaky?

I can't believe you have to be a MASTER at stealth to move a full speed while sneaking.

I'm also EXTREMELY concerned about ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING being an action. This means that we are GOING to have issues where a PC asks to do something not specifically spelled out in an action and the GM will have to make an on the spot ruling or flat out tell the PC "no".

Just so this isn't entirely negative, I do like the consolidated skill list.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:


I was thinking curing mundane things like disease or Blindness would be a Master feat rather than a Legendary one. Drained, enervated, cursed at legendary, sure. But stuff within the realm of tens if not hundreds of thousands of real world doctors should not be the exclusive domain of level 15+ legends.

Your knowledge of medicine in real life is dangerously off base. There are currently 0 Doctors that can cure the permanently blind or deaf, or those with life long (or even treatable diseases) in a single hour.

We might be poking in to pseudo treatments with some currently experimental tech on creating some ability to "see" or "hear" in some fashion, and many diseases are in fact still permanent conditions.

Also I wouldn't see a Doctor for curses, Medicine just doesn't feel right for that.


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That skill list seems a bit... empty. Like it's missing one or two things here and there. I'm also not a fan of Thievery, it's the traditional reason for having Sleight of Hand (and i'm guessing disable device?) but I don't like skills being named for what they're often used for rather than what you do with them.


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FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.

Given that they are nerfing the intensity of low-level debuffs (like colorspray), I wouldn't be surprised if no one encountered a spell that gave permanent blindness until at least 5th level spells (9th level characters), even on a critical failure. If that's the case, then I would expect that Remove Blindness is probably using a 5th level spell slot, even if it is a heightened version of another spell. In that case, you're taking a feat that allows you to avoid expending any spell slots in order to achieve these things. Even for someone who has 7th level spells, 5th level slots aren't useless. I could see this being of use even for a dedicated healing caster, assuming these conditions come up often. ( I should add that 5th level is an absolute lowball here, and that Remove Blindness may end up as a 6th or 7th level spell.)

Add to that the fact that there is no restriction on how often this can be used, and you could go around healing the huddled masses with this feat. Or charging the wealthiest nobles a pretty price for the curing of congenital blindness and other ailments within their houses. If your GM is going to go the route of urban adventures that rub elbows with rich emperors, then having the ability to perform miraculous healings with no daily power limits could definitely net you a position as court physician even in a world where casters exist after all, what is the caster to do when too many people show up needing medical care? Limited use healing powers don't make for reliable physicians.

I'd agree that its usefulness definitely depends on the type of campaign you're running, but it definitely *feels* legendary, at least rp-wise. I know that makes a difference at my tables.


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JoelF847 wrote:

The more I think about skill feats, the more I wonder if Perception not being a skill makes sense. Doesn't that preclude Perception skill feats?

I guess you could have general feats that unlock new abilities for Perception, but I think you'd have a much richer system if you integrated Perception as a skill, and everyone automatically starts with it trained. Then you could allow people who want to be extra good at it gain proficiency in it for the numerical bonus, as well as have skill feats for it - where a Legendary one might be basically tremor sense, a master one could be automatically detecting the square an invisible character is in within 30 feet, and an expert one being ability to passively roll to spot secret doors if you pass within 5 feet as examples.

That may actually be where they're going. Perception *functions* as a skill, and gets proficiency levels and skill feats just the same way, you just don't need to spend precious skill ranks for what has been called 'the most important/overused skill in the game'.


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necromental wrote:
kaid wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.
I think it probably depends how early various classes can get legendary proficiency as a medic. At the levels this is available having more options about who can clear some nasty conditions is useful. Also curing blindness through purely non magical means is pretty legendary.
Not if you're curing a lvl 3 condition at lvl 15. Also, not available in combat.

It’s only kind of a level 3 condition. Lots of condition spells can be heightened to require a high-level removal spell. Legendary Medic seems like it’s matching the level of whatever the condition, taking no bonus or penalty. I agree it feels a little underwhelming- more like what legendary healing with no feat should give.


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FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.

Seconded.

Remove Poison/Disease and Remove Blindness/Deafness are 3rd level spells that Divine spellcasters of 5th level or higher could cast in PF1. The fact that they think Legendary proficiency with a Skill Feat being even just comparable to a 5th level Cleric's spell power (again, assuming no major spell level change) is just laughable.

Let me guess what's next, Legendary Stealth allows a "Hide in Plain Sight" skill feat that grants a form of Invisbility, something that 2nd level+ Arcane Spellcasters can do? Cool, sure, but you could at least raise it to Improved Invisibility for a Legendary Skill + Feat.


I'm without my notebook now, but I loved it! ^^
Nothing to say against. I especially like the fact that high proficiency in a skill unlocks options for really amazing exploits! That is, perhaps, the most interesting part of the proficiency system.


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With the Lv 15 Legendary stealth feat, you no longer have to tell your DM "Just assume I'm stealthing unless I say otherwise."


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Not gonna lie, unless Remove Blindness/Deafness and Cure Disease have been turned into much higher level spells I'm not super impressed by that legendary Heal feat.

Seconded.

Remove Poison/Disease and Remove Blindness/Deafness are 3rd level spells that Divine spellcasters of 5th level or higher could cast in PF1. The fact that they think Legendary proficiency with a Skill Feat being even just comparable to a 5th level Cleric's spell power (again, assuming no major spell level change) is just laughable.

Let me guess what's next, Legendary Stealth allows a "Hide in Plain Sight" skill feat that grants a form of Invisbility, something that 2nd level+ Arcane Spellcasters can do? Cool, sure, but you could at least raise it to Improved Invisibility for a Legendary Skill + Feat.

It's certainly going to be underwhelming...if remove blindness/cure disease are still 3rd level spells. And if they haven't been downgraded in the same fashion as knock/pass without trace.


Bardarok wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
edduardco wrote:
So how training is gained? The blog mentioned fighters has 3 + Int trained skills, but is that for level?
It was mentioned in the level up blog that (Cleric's at least) get a skill increase every other level where they can increase their proficiency level in a skill.

Thanks Bardarok and KignOfAnything

But, can we be sure that skill ranks increases just by one each odd level? If yes that is kind of disappointing, I would expect to keep adding Int.

Its not as bad as all that, the bonus for all skills (trained and untrained) increase by one every level. So skill ranks are levels of proficiency in the new system which maxes out at rank 4 (legendary). I also assume that you get a bonus skill rank when you improve intelligence.

Yes I know, but that means that most characters are only going to have three or four skills maxed, I don't see how are they going to be more round up with that. Although given the number of skill feats maybe that is more than enough, I definitely need to play with this to see how it goes, because right now I don't think I like it much.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Let me guess what's next, Legendary Stealth allows a "Hide in Plain Sight" skill feat that grants a form of Invisbility, something that 2nd level+ Arcane Spellcasters can do? Cool, sure, but you could at least raise it to Improved Invisibility for a Legendary Skill + Feat.

Here is something that was posted with the Rogue section of the Hail the Gauntlet blog:

"And finally, Hidden Paragon lets you go completely invisible, even beyond the sight of true seeing, see invisibility and the like and impossible to outline with even glitterdust, faerie fire, or similar magic!"

You might be underestimating some of these skill feats a bit.

Also, keep in mind, the Legendary Medic feat lets you cure these things at no cost of spellslots. In a game that seems to be reducing the spellslot number a bit, that's useful.


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The decisions regarding which Skills to amalgamate and which to leave as they were is interesting.

That said, it seems like Skills are another aspect of the game being made more complicated for complexity's sake...


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Corrik wrote:
With the Lv 15 Legendary stealth feat, you no longer have to tell your DM "Just assume I'm stealthing unless I say otherwise."

I think it's better than that. I believe it allows you a Stealth check even if circumstances wouldn't normally let you have one. It's still a little silly as you say, but if I can use a Stealth check even without actually meeting the requirements for a Stealth check, it has some use.

But it's not worthy of Legendary + Skill Feat. Maybe Master, tops, or Expert + Skill Feat, but certainly not that.


While I'm not impressed with cure blindness, etc. 10 levels behind pf1 clerics... It could be useful to a group that doesn't have access to one. Granted, that particular feat strikes me more as suited to NPCs than PCs.


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The consolidation to 17 skills is great. To begin with, one will no longer have to check if he should roll for Survival or Knowledge(Nature) to figure out basic things, like if a fruit is edible for instance.

I also greatly appreciate that the healing skill can now actually heal, instead of being a poor cousin to Cure Light Wounds, completely useless by level 3 or so, the way it is in PF1.

thflame wrote:
I was expecting Legendary Medicine to do something like bring people back from the dead on a DC 30-40 check if they "died" in the last minute, not remove stuff that a mid level caster can do with a spell.

Except we don't know that a mid level caster can do that.

Edit - I forgot to mention this: Assuming that "drained" is equivalent to a permanent negative level in PF1, then Legendary Medicine is equivalent to a Restoration spell in PF1. Not too bad for something that's available to any class.


Friday sounds like it'll be fun.

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