Spending Your Downtime

Friday, June 1, 2018

Hey, everybody! It's our first design blog after PaizoCon! It was great getting a chance to show the game off for the attendees there and collect your comments after your first chance to play. But what if we looked at something there wasn't a chance to demo at the convention?

We've mentioned before that we're more clearly defining the three modes of play for the Pathfinder Playtest. Encounter, exploration, and downtime mode all have a place in the game, and they each play out differently at the table. So, let's look at the robust new systems we've built to cover what your characters do when they're not out on adventures!

Downtime mode is measured in days and gives you a chance to enact your long-term plans. You might craft items, heal up, conduct rituals, retrain some of your character options to choose other ones, or work at jobs or stage performances to make money. These are all things that take time and can't really be done in the middle of a dungeon.

Of course, just like with the other modes of play, these are all things you could do previously in Pathfinder. The difference in the Playtest is that we've more clearly defined these tasks in terms of what you can complete in the number of days you commit to them. This means if the GM wants to codify how long things take, it's more obvious what the value of a day spent at a task is.

Activities

When you have a day or more off, you can choose a defined downtime activity (or decide to do whatever else you want to). A few of these are general, like taking bed rest to heal more quickly or retraining your feats, skill choices, and selectable class features.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Most of downtime activities, however, appear under skills and require skill checks. The ones appearing in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook are Craft, Create Forgery, Gather Information, Practice a Trade, Stage a Performance, Subsist on the Streets, Survive in the Wild, and Treat Disease. All of these require a skill check to determine how successful you are, and a few are explained in more detail later in this blog.

We also know we'll have some downtime activities that are beyond the scope of the systems in the Playtest Rulebook. Building a keep or wizard's tower is one of the big ones. While we for sure want you to be able to establish a home base, this requires interconnectedness between other systems and a high level of work by the GM, so for the Playtest, we wanted to keep the focus on the more directly player-oriented downtime activities.

Making Money

Practicing a Trade and Staging a Performance use Lore skills or the Performance skill, respectively, to make money and potentially draw the attention of employers or patrons. For these activities, the GM determines what type of work or audience you can find and assigns it a level, using the same scale as PC levels. This sets your DC and how much money you can make, with more money coming in based on your proficiency rank. If you're in a small town and you're higher level, you might not find the type of sophisticated work that makes full use of your talents. If you're adventuring in the Shackles, maybe you can find work as a master of Sailing Lore that you wouldn't be able to find in, say, the Hold of Belkzen.

Because downtime can include a really large number of days, performing these activities long-term requires rolls only for interesting events; you can continue doing the job and earning money at a steady rate until the job is completed or your audiences run out. This means you can cover long periods of downtime quickly and embellish your activity with interesting details, rather than getting bogged down with 30 rolls for a month of downtime.

Crafting

One of the parts of downtime we know will be important to people is crafting items, including magical and alchemical ones. We knew that we didn't want item crafting to be as powerful in the new edition as it was in the first edition, where it was simply too easy to end up with far more powerful characters that had twice as much wealth, and in a way that didn't make a whole lot of sense in the game world.

In the Playtest, items have levels. You can craft items of your level or lower, and you must be skilled enough at crafting, reflected in your proficiency rank, to craft an item of that quality (trained for standard items, and expert, master, or legendary for higher-quality ones). Crafting an item requires you to spend half its Price in crafting materials. You might find or acquire these sorts of materials, and most of them you can buy directly with currency, if you need to.

You have to spend at least 4 days crafting an item of your level, and you can reduce this if your level is higher than the item's. Once that time is up, you have two options if you succeed at your check: complete the item right away by supplying the rest of its Price in materials (a great option if you have the money for the item but can't find one on the market), or spend more time on your crafting to reduce the Price through your superior skill. You can stop crafting at any time and complete the item by providing the remaining amount of its Price. If you got a critical success on your skill check, the discount is better!

What does this mean for characters who are looking to make money by crafting? Well, crafting progress is based on a similar scale to Practicing a Trade or Staging a Performance, so it's about as lucrative. In fact, if you want to work as a crafter for cash instead of items, you can use the same rules for Practice a Trade, but using your Crafting skill modifier instead! You might make most of your money crafting and selling minor items in a process taken from the normal rules, but you might also get the occasional special commission from a client who wants a specific item and is willing to pay top... gold piece.

Using Downtime in Your Game

If you're a Game Master, downtime lets you pace out your game and show the passage of time between adventures. Characters and their circumstances can change in tangible ways during their downtime. Adding color and storylines to downtime, as well as recurring characters, helps the PCs form bonds and feel they're more a part of the world around them. It also means that PCs with long-term goals have a clear way of attaining them, with a clearer structure than the game had before. Less guesswork for you, and immense expandability!

So how are your characters going to spend their downtime?

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Mark, for what I understood, now Practicing a Trade, Staging a Performance, Crafting (when used to get a discount or when being used to make profit), and similar skills uses, are all used at downtime to give players the same/similar amount of money as if the PCs had worked that time, right?

Then, all GMs can state that the characters will always have an amount of wealth equal to what the GM gives them in the encounter and exploration modes of play, plus an amount equal do "X" multiplied for the days off the GM gives them in the downtime mode?

If this is the new formula to determine the PCs' WBL, you guys just made crafting useful and improved the game wealth/economics. Really genius and definitely a really really good decision!

That said, we can remember that crafting is also very useful giving access to rare items or those that can't be found in the stores.

Congratulations to you!

Designer

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John John wrote:

So first of all I like what I am seeing, but I would also like some way to challenge people during downtime. (Which ofcourse a dm can and should do without needing a rule for it.)

If you have an extended downtime (like the PCs take 100 days off), the playtest suggests that the GM make up several challenging events that you play out a bit more and roll for separately, and then sort of coast through the rest of the days without 100 rolls.

Designer

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Bruno Mares wrote:

Mark, for what I understood, now Practicing a Trade, Staging a Performance, Crafting (when used to get a discount or when being used to make profit), and similar skills uses, are all used at downtime to give players the same/similar amount of money as if the PCs had worked that time, right?

Then, all GMs can state that the characters will always have an amount of wealth equal to what the GM gives them in the encounter and exploration modes of play, plus an amount equal do "X" multiplied for the days off the GM gives them in the downtime mode?

If this is the new formula to determine the PCs' WBL, you guys just made crafting useful and improved the game wealth/economics. Really genius and definitely a really really good decision!

That said, we can remember that crafting is also very useful giving access to rare items or those that can't be found in the stores.

Congratulations to you!

It's not literally constant, but if the PCs are equally invested it at least is going to be in the same ballpark (and as graystone intuited early in the thread, one of the big advantages of crafting for yourself, rather than the other options, is that you can always be sure you're fully occupied on a lucrative job, rather than having to sometimes perform less well-paying tasks) so that, as you say, you can roughly predict how much money the group will have based on encounter gains, explorations gains, and downtime gains.


Berselius wrote:
I'm really hoping the rules for the Leadership feat (if it's included in this version of Pathfinder) are easier to use and understand. It'd be easier just to turn it into a feat that gives the PC who takes it a loyal cohort NPC of a playable race and class.

I'm really hoping they don't include Leadership, i.e. "Spend a Feat to have friends".

Diplomacy is a thing, and keeping the "live" motivation of NPCs front and center enhances game, vs. mechanical "entitlement".
The mentality of players micromanaging builds of NPC Followers is often assumed, yet not actually indicated by 3.x/P1E Feat.
NPC allies should be able to be arbitrarily added/removed due to circumstances and CR appropriately compensated.
So there isn't any real unique capability offered by the Feat, other than superficializing roleplaying engagement.

Better approach IMHO is more fleshed out Diplomatic interactions with modifiers appropriate to ongoing allegiances.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Can we get any information on how challenging the checks are to craft an item? One of the biggest flaws in crafting in PF1 is that the DCs were so low, that a character automatically succeeded, even if they skipped multiple requirements.

Will PF2 have a reasonable chance of failure for crafting magic items? I hope there's at least some, since otherwise, being able to craft any item in 4 days of your level seems pretty powerful.

"Oh our next adventure is against demons, let me sell my dragon bane +3 sword, and then craft a demon bane +3 sword instead." 4 days seems like a very low cost to do this every adventure if it's trivially easy to succeed at crafting.


JoelF847 wrote:

Can we get any information on how challenging the checks are to craft an item? One of the biggest flaws in crafting in PF1 is that the DCs were so low, that a character automatically succeeded, even if they skipped multiple requirements.

Will PF2 have a reasonable chance of failure for crafting magic items? I hope there's at least some, since otherwise, being able to craft any item in 4 days of your level seems pretty powerful.

"Oh our next adventure is against demons, let me sell my dragon bane +3 sword, and then craft a demon bane +3 sword instead." 4 days seems like a very low cost to do this every adventure if it's trivially easy to succeed at crafting.

That is only if you can sell you equipment at full price. Also, I assume you can fail the check and then you gotta spend another 4 Days on it. It also has the cost of foregoing 4 additional days of wages. Note that you are also paying full price for items you craft; you pay half when you start and half when you finish (minus any cost savings from taking extra time and foregoing additional wages).


4 days to get the +5 worth of magic into the masterwork sword, ok I‘d get that.
but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??
you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.


Very interested to hear more about using downtime to conduct rituals or gather information (& hopefully other social things, which always felt to be lacking in the core rules).


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DropBearHunter wrote:

4 days to get the +5 worth of magic into the masterwork sword, ok I‘d get that.

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??
you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.

You need only 4 days if you’re not making the entire Sword from scratch. If you’re willing to pay the full price of the item, you’re likely just buying the individual parts of the sword and then spending those days to weld them together, sharpen the blade, etch the rune slots into it, and add personal finishing touches to the weapon.


Aramar wrote:
ElSilverWind wrote:
Aramar wrote:
If you happen to be an artisan who takes a commission for a particular item; in order to pay for Crafting the item you would pay half of the item's price up front, and the rest if you want to be done after 4 days. Unless, as a cunning PC, you are going to do a mark-up of the price to earn a profit from the NPC with the commission, you won't have earned anything if you complete the item in the default 4 days. You would need to intentionally take longer to craft in order to make a profit. Am I understanding this correctly?

Remember, unless you’re crafting the item for charity or whatnot, you would be selling the item for full price in PF2. The customer would pay you half of the cost for the item up-front for materials, then the other half once they have received their item. If they specify that they want that item quickly made, the customer would need to pay that extra fee.

So let’s say that your customer wanted to purchase a 200 sp set of Expert Quality Scalemail.

100sp up front, then 100sp once the item is delivered that would be done in let’s say 2 weeks (14 Days). A 100sp profit for you.

But your customer really wants that armor as soon as possible. Crafting that armor in 4 Days requires an additional 100sp worth of additional materials.

So now the customer pays 200sp upfront, then another 100 sp once they have received the item. A 100sp profit for you.

Ah, so you're saying there is a mark-up, since in the latter case this NPC is paying full price plus an extra 100 sp as an acceleration fee.

I imagine the same would apply to PC's looking to purchase custom/unavailable items, with a mark-up of 10%-50% depending on how quickly they want it.

Exactly! Although we’ll need to see how much a Crafter can cut down on the time required to craft a magic item before we throw out any definitive numbers, 150% of the original price of the item would realistically be the highest selling price unless someone was trying to scam the buyer.

Dark Archive

DropBearHunter wrote:

4 days to get the +5 worth of magic into the masterwork sword, ok I‘d get that.

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??
you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.

I would think if you're able to make a +5 weapon you will most likely be able to create a legendary weapon thus meaning it would not take the full 4 days to make a master sword.

Blog wrote:
You have to spend at least 4 days crafting an item of your level, and you can reduce this if your level is higher than the item's.

Liberty's Edge

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DropBearHunter wrote:

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??

you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.

Uh...how so? All the references I can find are that a skilled smith can make a sword in a weekend.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Malk_Content wrote:

For folks worried about needing high level crafters as npcs I don't think we need to worry much. Basic things like arms and armour likely won't have high level requirements, and getting master proficiency at low levels already exists (fighters with weapons for example.)

I can easily see an "expert" npc class that gets master proficiency in one skill by level 4 or 5 that doesn't offer much else and has very low (2?) hp per level.

This is how I am seeing it as well


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I feel like, of the 4 days to make a really great sword a number of those are devoted to working through the theoretical underpinnings and coming up with a plan for how to make your sword really great and not just another sword.

I mean, I know from experience that it does not take 4 days to bake a wedding cake and decorate it, but this is the sort of thing you really want to plan through well in advance because you're on a clock once you start the oven.


Will crafting become much less useful as we gain levels? In PF1 non-magical crafting became very slow as the price of the item went up, but other wise remained cost effective. It sounds like the new system will be time effective, but the cost savings as a percentage of a characters over all wealth will decrease as levels increase. Unless the cost of items increase is linear now.


Tursic wrote:
Will crafting become much less useful as we gain levels? In PF1 non-magical crafting became very slow as the price of the item went up, but other wise remained cost effective. It sounds like the new system will be time effective, but the cost savings as a percentage of a characters over all wealth will decrease as levels increase. Unless the cost of items increase is linear now.

You're assuming the cost savings of crafting (or the money earned from performance or practicing your trade) increases linearly. If it increases quadratically, then crafting remains about as valuable throughout your career (in terms of percentage WBL).

How would we get this?
- Money saved/earned is DC times your check result. Given that we know Perform and Practice Trade both require a sufficiently challenging task to maximize what you earn, this seems pretty likely.
- Proficiency scaling. This would be really jumpy, since the stretch from level 7 through 14 wouldn't scale, and then it'd correct at 15.


QuidEst wrote:
Tursic wrote:
Will crafting become much less useful as we gain levels? In PF1 non-magical crafting became very slow as the price of the item went up, but other wise remained cost effective. It sounds like the new system will be time effective, but the cost savings as a percentage of a characters over all wealth will decrease as levels increase. Unless the cost of items increase is linear now.

You're assuming the cost savings of crafting (or the money earned from performance or practicing your trade) increases linearly. If it increases quadratically, then crafting remains about as valuable throughout your career (in terms of percentage WBL).

How would we get this?
- Money saved/earned is DC times your check result. Given that we know Perform and Practice Trade both require a sufficiently challenging task to maximize what you earn, this seems pretty likely.
- Proficiency scaling. This would be really jumpy, since the stretch from level 7 through 14 wouldn't scale, and then it'd correct at 15.

Another way to keep the discount relevant is if the discount for those extra days is a set percentage of the total cost. With such a system you'd always have level appropriate savings as long as you were crafting level appropriate gear and level appropriate gear and level appropriate WBL were related, even if the prices between last level and this level shift completely arbitrarily.


Shinigami02 wrote:
Another way to keep the discount relevant is if the discount for those extra days is a set percentage of the total cost. With such a system you'd always have level appropriate savings as long as you were crafting level appropriate gear and level appropriate gear and level appropriate WBL were related, even if the prices between last level and this level shift completely arbitrarily.

I don't know how you could make the money comparable to Perform, etc. with a percentage of the item, though. That'd be tricky to pull off.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Without weighing on whether it is broken or not, I will say there is something to be said for "if the GM intervenes to cap the effectiveness of a feat/build it isn't broken." Taken to an extreme, this can mean characters effectively get no benefit from the feat because the GM will simply adjust their wealth back to where it would have been without the feats.

It is like raising the to hit value to compensate for someone who builds to max AC, or raising enemy HP to offset high damage. A little of this isn't necessarily bad, but you gotta walk a fine line. One of the benefits of PF2's tighter math will hopefully be making this easier.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

If by "you control how much wealath you are giving to PCs it's not broken" you mean that, as soon as someone pick it, you divide wealth by half to make up for it, then yes, it doesn't break the game, because you effectively neuter the feat.

If you keep giving the same of wealth, regardless of player choices (which, I think, you should, because otherwise players don't have choices, just the ilusion of them), then it's broken anyways. It doesn't matter if you give them much gold or little gold, it will make that gold to be worth the double. If you make 2 groups to run through the same AP, and give them the same amount of gold (as much or as little as you want), but one of them have Craft Woundreous, while the other does not, the group with craft woundreous will be ahead of effective WBL, by far. It's an adventage much greater than anything else you can get with 1 feat.

I don't know where from my post you get that I'm advocating of neutering the feat, I'm for Ultimate Campaign guidelines of 25-50% more WBL (I'd keep it closer to 20-30% though). Although, my DM for instance, says the benefit of having all the items you want instead of relying on random drops and availability of metropolises during adventuring is enough. And you have to monitor the wealth already, as even the APs do that rather poorly, so I'm not really seeing the "broken" aspect.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
DropBearHunter wrote:

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??

you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.
Uh...how so? All the references I can find are that a skilled smith can make a sword in a weekend.

And from a television perspective, some of the stuff being produced on Forged In Fire should probably count as masterwork

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
DropBearHunter wrote:

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??

you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.
Uh...how so? All the references I can find are that a skilled smith can make a sword in a weekend.

I think that’s DropBearHunters’s point; a skilled smith can craft something in well less than 4 days


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Enlight_Bystand wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
DropBearHunter wrote:

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??

you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.
Uh...how so? All the references I can find are that a skilled smith can make a sword in a weekend.
I think that’s DropBearHunters’s point; a skilled smith can craft something in well less than 4 days

They've also said batch crafting comes online at some point. I'm guessing they don't want to drop units down below 1 day, because they want Downtime to be measured in days. But I could easily see it becoming "I spend the weekend at the forge and craft 6 expert quality swords."


Deadmanwalking wrote:
DropBearHunter wrote:

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??

you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.
Uh...how so? All the references I can find are that a skilled smith can make a sword in a weekend.

„a“ sword or a „masterwork“ sword?

the sort that a good museum would display for being extraordinary work of it’s time period?

Enlight_Bystand wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
DropBearHunter wrote:

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??

you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.
Uh...how so? All the references I can find are that a skilled smith can make a sword in a weekend.
I think that’s DropBearHunters’s point; a skilled smith can craft something in well less than 4 days

actually no. heat treat and tempering alone are half a day from cooling times alone, no short cuts with any amount of skill possible.

when a smith does nothing all day but make swords the cooling time can be used to bash about the next batch, which will increase the „swords per week“.
But just doing one at a time you can‘t „slowly cool 5lb of steel down“ in a hurry just because you are really good at your job.

Liberty's Edge

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DropBearHunter wrote:

„a“ sword or a „masterwork“ sword?

the sort that a good museum would display for being extraordinary work of it’s time period?

A sword, from what I understand, not a master crafted one...but then, we're talking normal smiths who can do that, not master sword smiths, y'know?

I have no problem with people who are sufficiently expert crafting amazing things in the time normal people can craft normal things.

Is that unrealistic? Maybe a tad. But certainly far less so than many things high level Pathfinder characters can manage.


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Still won't take 4 days for a good smith to make a sword.(if that is all they are working on) And 5lbs sword blade is pretty substantial sized one for the record. That being said 4 days is close enough to reality in my opinion. However...what about say full plate, nobody(alone) will make that in 4 days.(even with 1 person per piece it would be really stretching it) But then there are something like spears and axes which take vastly less time. And that is without going outside of combat gear.

I am pretty ok with everything else than the crafting time. There really should be say 4 tiers of time consuming in items that determine the base time required.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm fine with 4 days as an approximation. It's too long for some things and too short for others, but it's workable and fun for a game (which the added complexity of making everything have a 'crafting complexity' would not be).


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Seems at some point you just have to use the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) rule otherwise your just spending all your game play trying to recreate realism and getting nowhere.


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DropBearHunter wrote:

4 days to get the +5 worth of magic into the masterwork sword, ok I‘d get that.

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??
you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.

Only if their goal is to make crafting the most realistic possible, instead of the most fun.

I think 4 days is a good catch-all. A fine masterwork sword should take a bit more (although not as much as in PF1), and a rough, battle ready, cheap axe should take less. But I don't want to spend design space in a table that explicitly has crafting time for every single stuff in the CRB.

4 days is enough to be meaningful, without halting the campaign or banning players from crafting because the campaign can't stop.


Besides didn't I read somewhere that only the level appropriate items would take 4 days while lower level ones would be faster?


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Besides didn't I read somewhere that only the level appropriate items would take 4 days while lower level ones would be faster?

Yes. But level and complexity is not necesarely the same. I assume a rapier and a battle axe would both cost 4 days, while in reality, a rapier takes longer.

It's not a big deal, however, and simplicity is more important than realism here. 4 days for an axe is good enough.


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Maybe they could have a size/complexity modifier as a way to get a bit more realism without too much extra system complexity. So like a spearhead could have a multiplier like x1/2 that makes them quick an easy to churn out in batches, while a ship takes a really long time and could have like x16 or something. Nobody should be able to build a ship in four days, especially not alone.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Bruno Mares wrote:

Mark, for what I understood, now Practicing a Trade, Staging a Performance, Crafting (when used to get a discount or when being used to make profit), and similar skills uses, are all used at downtime to give players the same/similar amount of money as if the PCs had worked that time, right?

Then, all GMs can state that the characters will always have an amount of wealth equal to what the GM gives them in the encounter and exploration modes of play, plus an amount equal do "X" multiplied for the days off the GM gives them in the downtime mode?

If this is the new formula to determine the PCs' WBL, you guys just made crafting useful and improved the game wealth/economics. Really genius and definitely a really really good decision!

That said, we can remember that crafting is also very useful giving access to rare items or those that can't be found in the stores.

Congratulations to you!

It's not literally constant, but if the PCs are equally invested it at least is going to be in the same ballpark (and as graystone intuited early in the thread, one of the big advantages of crafting for yourself, rather than the other options, is that you can always be sure you're fully occupied on a lucrative job, rather than having to sometimes perform less well-paying tasks) so that, as you say, you can roughly predict how much money the group will have based on encounter gains, explorations gains, and downtime gains.

I was excessively affirmative stating this as a general rule, since not all characters will be able to profit in the downtime, but if this is possible, it's enough to me. As a GM, it's easy to preview how much money the PCs can make in downtime.

This definitely open a lot of possibilities to give life to the "non-adventurer life" of PCs and also make them more alive as "common/real people" (even if they're not), so that improves the roleplaying. Nice done!


I think ships are built, not crafted. Pretty sure we will have building rules, for things like building your own tavern, a bridge over the river, a ship, or the Great Wall in China. I doubt those things are covered by crafting rules.
For the rest, I'm not sure is worth the hassle. A few things could be crafted in batches (like arrows), or maybe have lvl 0 to craft (Which means everybody craft them faster, because crafting things below your level is faster). Besides that, I don't think it's a big deal.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Seems at some point you just have to use the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) rule otherwise your just spending all your game play trying to recreate realism and getting nowhere.

guess so;

but four days flat, not need to think about what you're doing...
just feels like crafting is made cheap.

maybe go with a bit of Smorgasboard of crafting:
Light & one Handed Weapos: 1 Day
Two Handed Weapons : 2 Days
Ranged: 3 days

Armor: 1day per 10lb

Masterwork: double time

Exotic anything: add 1 day per Exotic (weapon type, material etc)

working in the Magic: 2 days for the highest crafter level the Character can make.


DropBearHunter wrote:

4 days to get the +5 worth of magic into the masterwork sword, ok I‘d get that.

but 4 days to create a masterwork sword??
you guys may need to watch some people crafting things and re adjust your time table.

A week for the Bladesmith to make the blade, the guy who does the guards (can't remember the name of that job) to make and embellish the hilt furniture, the sheath maker to make and embellish that, all of this to be bought together for fettling and finish? Seems fast but not amazingly so. No power grinders remember, everything is water or wind (or possibly magic I guess) powered.


Subsisting on the streets is itself a full-day downtime action? I hope that includes begging/scrounging, because sleeping in an alley because I can't afford an inn shouldn't preclude me from bugging the locals about rumors.


QuidEst wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
Another way to keep the discount relevant is if the discount for those extra days is a set percentage of the total cost. With such a system you'd always have level appropriate savings as long as you were crafting level appropriate gear and level appropriate gear and level appropriate WBL were related, even if the prices between last level and this level shift completely arbitrarily.
I don't know how you could make the money comparable to Perform, etc. with a percentage of the item, though. That'd be tricky to pull off.

It's fairly simple, make the value of a day's work at an X Level Day Job roughly equivalent to X% of the average value of an X level item. It would probably require a CR Chart for Day Jobs of sorts admittedly, but that's almost an inevitability anyways. And it also has the added benefit (at least in my eyes) that if you know that's the design, you can fairly easily reverse engineer the Day Job values to approximate how much a homebrew item of X level should cost on average, rather than having to manually compare several items to get a rough estimate.


DropBearHunter wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Seems at some point you just have to use the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) rule otherwise your just spending all your game play trying to recreate realism and getting nowhere.

guess so;

but four days flat, not need to think about what you're doing...
just feels like crafting is made cheap.

maybe go with a bit of Smorgasboard of crafting:
Light & one Handed Weapos: 1 Day
Two Handed Weapons : 2 Days
Ranged: 3 days

Armor: 1day per 10lb

Masterwork: double time

Exotic anything: add 1 day per Exotic (weapon type, material etc)

working in the Magic: 2 days for the highest crafter level the Character can make.

Why would exotic weapons take any longer? Or indeed two handers any longer than 1h?


Not keen on the 4-day thing, whatever level you are, seems an underwhelming amount of time to produce permanent magic items of great power.

Shadow Lodge

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Aratrok wrote:
Limiting item crafting by level is frustrating. It's going to warp the setting monstrously if you can't have a lot of items on the market without a large number of high level characters supplying them.

Paizo: "We aren't changing the setting."

Mechanics of new game: "Yes we are."

Me: "Oh, so this is an alternate reality Golorian. Got it."


I think a good solution for that would just be to allow you to lengthen the crafting time, but not for discounts, rather to be able to craft higher level/quality items.

Y'know, the Trained blacksmith young man wishes to make an Expert longsword to impress his knight paramour, he can try, it just takes him much longer than it would to make a normal Longsword. And he doesn't get a discount, to represent that he's working with better, more expensive materials to make up for his lack of skill.

Silver Crusade

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Dragonborn3 wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Limiting item crafting by level is frustrating. It's going to warp the setting monstrously if you can't have a lot of items on the market without a large number of high level characters supplying them.

Paizo: "We aren't changing the setting."

Mechanics of new game: "Yes we are."

Me: "Oh, so this is an alternate reality Golorian. Got it."

Was warehouses full of low level crafters ever established anywhere?

Pretty sure mid to high level crafters has always been the norm.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, my assumption was that most of the time increasingly powerful magical crafting was done by increasingly high level crafters. Hence why the settlement rules have spellcasting services and base prices for item purchases rising together. When a more expensive item shows up in a low level town it is usually a notable exception.


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It may be slightly at a tangent, but I hope they include tables for rolling up a history for a magic item when the GM doesn't have something in mind - especially for a high level item. Because from an in-context standpoint, virtually none of the high level casters in the current age or past history of this setting (or most others) seem like the type of person to keep pumping items out into the world for adventurers to find. Every single one of them, from Karzoug to pre-ascension Aroden, would be making stuff exclusively for themselves and their cohorts and best minions. Yes, those people eventually die and then their stuff finds its way out into the world, but that would all be stuff that could be covered by the history charts.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
It may be slightly at a tangent, but I hope they include tables for rolling up a history for a magic item when the GM doesn't have something in mind - especially for a high level item. Because from an in-context standpoint, virtually none of the high level casters in the current age or past history of this setting (or most others) seem like the type of person to keep pumping items out into the world for adventurers to find. Every single one of them, from Karzoug to pre-ascension Aroden, would be making stuff exclusively for themselves and their cohorts and best minions. Yes, those people eventually die and then their stuff finds its way out into the world, but that would all be stuff that could be covered by the history charts.

I think it's partly selection bias. You don't hear about the powerful crafters because they aren't the focus. There's (probably) a level 20+ Alchemist who has supported the economy of five or six city states through crafting for about three millennia.


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I guess the issue I have with "high level crafters are around and available to the rich and powerful" is that then the way to limit the really rare stuff is via the scarcity of its ingredients, which sort of implies an arms race-

Sure, plenty of people could craft Sun Orchid Elixir, but the flowers are hard to get to... but if the Level 20 Alchemist is friends with someone who can teleport, then they's not... but the Flowers are guarded by powerful divs... Who should pose little threat to the level 20 alchemist and his level 20 pals, and so forth.

I prefer to avoid these sorts of arms races by having high level folks be exceedingly rare, personally.


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Dragonborn3 wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Limiting item crafting by level is frustrating. It's going to warp the setting monstrously if you can't have a lot of items on the market without a large number of high level characters supplying them.

Paizo: "We aren't changing the setting."

Mechanics of new game: "Yes we are."

Me: "Oh, so this is an alternate reality Golorian. Got it."

NPCs don’t really have to follow the same rules as adventurers, though.

Silver Crusade

Excaliburproxy wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Limiting item crafting by level is frustrating. It's going to warp the setting monstrously if you can't have a lot of items on the market without a large number of high level characters supplying them.

Paizo: "We aren't changing the setting."

Mechanics of new game: "Yes we are."

Me: "Oh, so this is an alternate reality Golorian. Got it."

NPCs don’t really have to follow the same rules as adventurers, though.

14th level Experts need something to do.

What with their 1st level ability called "2 for 1 special" where they gain one level for every 2 years of experience.


Assuming NPC classes are even a thing. I could see them no longer being a thing.

I imagine "adept, expert, warrior" are now arrays for Unchained style NPCs rather than discreet classes.

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