All About Spells

Monday, April 16, 2018

Spells are magical formulas with esoteric components, including words of power, gestures, and unusual ingredients, that when taken together create extraordinary magical effects. Spells have always been a crucial part of Pathfinder and the fantasy genre as a whole. But what's new about spells in the playtest? Let's take a look!

Action!

You cast spells by using some combination of the Verbal Casting, Somatic Casting, and Material Casting actions (the most common combination is Verbal and Somatic Casting actions for 2 total actions). Not every class interfaces with those actions in the same way. For instance, clerics can use a divine focus to satisfy the Material Casting action, sorcerers use their magical blood, and bards can use instruments that change up several aspects (for instance, even if you're gagged or otherwise unable to speak, you can play your violin to provide the Verbal Casting portion).

Heightened Spells

In the playtest, you'll be able to heighten your favorite spells in order to gain greater effects than ever before. Heightening a spell works much like it did previously, where you prepare a spell in a higher-level slot (or cast it using a higher-level slot if you're a spontaneous caster), except now all spellcasters can do it, and you gain much more interesting benefits. Want to fire 15 missiles with magic missile or turn into a Huge animal with animal form? Just heighten those spells to the appropriate level! There's no longer any need to learn long chains of spells that are incrementally different and each require you to refer back to the previous spell.

Incidentally, the idea of using a spell's level to determine its power has led to some really interesting interplay between spells. For example, how many times have you run into a situation where your high-level illusionist is foiled by a simple detect magic spell or a similar effect? Now, illusions of a higher spell level than a detect magic cantrip can foil detection! Similarly, dispel magic has a harder time dispelling spells of much higher spell levels, while it can crush lower-level spells with ease. This extends to many other similar interactions; while in Pathfinder First Edition, a creature with some basic spell effect that's constantly active might be flat-out immune to your character's spells, now you can heighten your spells and overcome that obstacle!

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Cantrips

In the playtest, cantrips are spells you can cast at will, but they are no longer level 0. Instead, they automatically heighten to the highest spell level you can currently cast. That means if you're 5th level, your ray of frost is 3rd level and deals more damage, and your light cantrip is better at counteracting magical darkness.

Domain Powers and Beyond

Pathfinder has always had domain powers, school powers, bloodline powers, and other special class-based spell-like abilities that you can use a certain number of times per day rather than using your daily spell slots on them. In the playtest, we've expanded this idea, allowing even more classes to gain these kinds of powers and standardizing the way we talk about the powers and their daily uses. The powers are now treated as a special kind of spell, and they are all cast using Spell Points. There is power in naming something; while you don't really count them differently than if you had a pool of uses per day, this allowed us to create new and interesting abilities that cost multiple Spell Points or that you could add extra features to at the cost of more Spell Points, in a way that works across classes more smoothly.

10th-Level Spells

So what's the deal with 10th-level spells? Jason mentioned these all the way at the beginning, and many of you have given excellent guesses for what they will be. They start with a class of spells that used to be 9th level+, by which I mean, they were 9th level, but even for that level they were usually balanced by expensive material costs. Spells like wish and miracle. In the playtest, these spells are free to cast but are 10th level. Then we added some brand-new and amazing spells, like fabricated truth and nature incarnate. I'm guessing you guys will quickly figure out what these spells do, but here's a hint: one of them had a critical failure effect previewed in the Critical Hits and Critical Failures blog!

Rituals

Ever since we introduced them in Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures, rituals have been a favorite both among fans and the adventure developers here at Paizo. If you haven't checked them out yet, they're story-rich spells with a long casting time that anyone skilled enough could conceivably try to perform as long as they have the hidden knowledge. Typically they involve some number of secondary casters, which can get the whole party involved or make a nice set-piece encounter with an evil cult.

Even in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, there were spells that sort of followed that mold already—the 8th-level spell binding is a perfect example. In the playtest, these sorts of spells have been made into rituals. This means that these downtime spells don't take up your spell slots, and that martial characters who manage to attain a high enough proficiency rank in magic-related skills like Arcana can cast them! This is particularly great when, for instance, the cleric dies but the monk can perform a resurrection ritual. (Don't worry, there is still also the non-ritual spell raise dead in case you need someone back in action faster, though a group that wants death to be more uncertain can easily omit that spell for an instant shift in the tone of the campaign.) Rituals also have delightful potential failure effects. For instance, if you critically fail planar binding, you call something dark and horrible that isn't bound by your wards, and it immediately attempts to destroy you!

Magical Traditions

Magical traditions, such as arcane and divine, have always been a part of Pathfinder spells. But the playtest gives us an opportunity to really explore what they mean, what makes them different, and how they metaphysically interconnect in a way that enriches the game's story. Magic taps into various essences in the cosmos. For example, arcane magic blends material essence (the fundamental building blocks of all physical things) and mental essence (the building block of rational thoughts, logic, and memories). This means that arcane traditions share a lot in common with science, as arcane spellcasters tend to use logic and rational methods to categorize the magic inherent in the physical world around them. Divine magic is the exact opposite; it blends spiritual essence (the otherworldly building block of the immortal self) and vital essence (the universal life force that gives us instincts and intuition). This means that divine traditions are steeped in faith, the unseen, and belief in a power source from beyond the Material Plane. These ideas have led to some exciting new additions of spells into each tradition's repertoire.

Example Spells

Let's put everything we've talked about into perspective by taking a look at a spell that can be heightened and that uses actions in an interesting way: heal. (By the way, notice the new spell school!)

Heal Spell 1

Healing, Necromancy, Positive
Casting Somatic Casting or more
Range touch, Range 30 feet, or Area 30-foot aura (see text); Target one willing living creature or one undead creature

You channel positive energy to heal the living or damage the undead. You restore Hit Points equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting modifier to a willing living target, or deal that amount of positive damage to an undead target. The number of actions you spend when Casting this Spell determines its targets, range, area, and other parameters.

  • Somatic Casting The spell has a range of touch. You must succeed at a melee touch attack to damage an undead target.
  • Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting The spell has a range of 30 feet and doesn't require a touch attack when targeting an undead creature. An undead target must attempt a Fortitude save, taking half damage on a success, no damage on a critical success, or double damage on a critical failure.
  • Material Casting, Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting You disperse positive energy in a 30-foot aura. This has the same effect as the two-action version of the spell, but it targets all living and undead creatures in the burst and reduces the amount of healing or damage to your spellcasting ability modifier.

Heightened (+1) Increase the amount of healing or damage by 1d8, or by 2d8 if you're using the one- or two-action version to heal the living.

So you can cast heal with 1 action and restore quite a few Hit Points to a touched target, especially for a single action. This is particularly useful if you cast heal several times in one turn on someone who needs emergency assistance after a critical hit! For 2 actions, you can cast safely from the back lines, and for 3 actions, you can change the area to a burst and heal living creatures while harming undead at the same time. It restores fewer hit points to each target that way, but if you have multiple allies in need of healing, it can be really efficient. This one spell, using heightened effects, combines the effects of all the cure wounds spells in one place.

At the bottom of the stat block, you see what one type of heightened entry looks like. This one gets better proportionally for each spell level above 1st. So a 2nd-level heal spell heals one target for 3d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier, a 3rd-level one heals one target 5d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier, and so on.

But heal is a classic spell chain that you already knew and loved in Pathfinder First Edition and that has already been revealed in tidbits through podcasts. How about its big sister regenerate?

Regenerate Spell 7

Healing, Necromancy
Casting Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting
Range touch; Target one willing living creature
Duration 1 minute

The target temporarily gains regeneration 15, which restores 15 Hit Points to it at the start of each of its turns. While it has regeneration, the target can't die from damage and its dying value can't exceed 3. If the target takes acid or fire damage, its regeneration deactivates until after the end of its next turn.

Each time the creature regains Hit Points from regeneration, it also regrows one damaged or ruined organ (if any). During the spell's duration, the creature can also reattach severed body parts by spending an Interact action to hold the body part to the stump.

Heightened (9th) The regeneration increases to 20.

Regenerate was always necessary to restore lost limbs or organs (a rare situation to come up in the game), but the way it worked made it fairly ineffective for use in combat. This version is much more attractive during a fight, particularly if your foe lacks access to acid and fire!

This spell doesn't increase in power incrementally as its level increases (except for being harder to dispel); instead, it has a specific heightened benefit at 9th level.

But what about something you've never seen before? Let's take a look at vampiric exsanguination!

Vampiric Exsanguination Spell 6

Death, Necromancy, Negative
Casting Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting
Area 30-foot cone

You draw life force from creatures and send it into your outstretched arms. You deal 10d6 negative damage to all living creatures in the area. As long as at least one creature in the area takes damage, you also gain half that many temporary Hit Points. You lose any remaining temporary Hit Points after 1 minute.

  • Success Half damage.
  • Critical Success No damage.
  • Failure Full damage.
  • Critical Failure Double damage.

Heightened (+2) Increase the damage by 3d6.

So we're dealing some reasonable damage in a cone; cone of cold isn't going to be jealous. But the trick here is that if you can get at least one foe (or minion) to critically fail its save against the spell, you gain a huge number of temporary Hit Points! If you're a wizard with a Constitution score of 12, that hapless creature might just provide you nearly 50% more Hit Points (incidentally, if you deal a lot of damage, you could kill a minion who critically fails the save, so use it responsibly). And since you're drawing in life force, guess who gains access to this spell? (Urgathoans rejoice!)

More New Spells

I'm going to close out by giving just the names of a smattering of new spells. What might they do? I'll leave it up to you guys to see what you think!

  • Alter reality
  • Collective transposition
  • Crusade
  • Disappearance
  • Divine inspiration
  • Duplicate foe
  • Energy aegis
  • Mariner's curse
  • Moment of renewal
  • Moon frenzy
  • Nature's enmity
  • Primal phenomenon
  • Punishing winds
  • Revival
  • Soothe
  • Spellwrack
  • Spiritual epidemic
  • Spiritual guardian
  • Tangling creepers
  • Unfathomable song

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Heightening spells is interesting. Scaling cantrips, I dunno. I guess I want to see the full implication of scaling cantrips. After having a kineticist in our game (they are since not allowed in our games), I'm very wary of inexhaustible magical attacks. Especially when they scale with levels.

So is Cure X Wounds gone now? I don't want it to be gone.

Finally, rituals. Obviously the specifics are for the actual playtest, but from this read they sound very 4e to me. I wasn't a fan of rituals there because instead of creating rituals that were new and interesting, it locked old spells behind the ritual mechanic, which seems exactly what's happening here.

John Lynch 106 wrote:
But it just seems really odd to have Bard as the only class to get a unique spell list.

Because bards are awesome, that's why. '<'


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If your dead self can make decisions about "do I want to be alive again or not" your unconscious self can make decisions about "do I want this spell to affect me."

Honestly, that's how I have been playing it anyway. Either I ask a player "do you want to save" even if they are unconscious, or I make a decision for an NPC. It's simple and it's easy, and it works.


Mark, do I have this right?

1) Spell levels go from 1st to 10th.

2) A cantrip is a spell that can be cast any number of times.

3) If Detect Magic is a cantrip, it only detects magic from spells from a lower spell level than where it is placed.

I would also love to know if the Magical Emanations are still a thing / not a thing.


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I've liked 80% of what I've read about P2E up to this point, but I had to make an account just to say this:

Please call "Spell Points" literally anything else. "Mana Points", "Power Points", "Toast Points", I don't care what. Just something. Thank you.


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LuZeke wrote:
So is Cure X Wounds gone now? I don't want it to be gone.

Heal is taking the place of Cure Wounds. I'm guessing the name Cure is specifically reserved for the line of spells that were previously Remove Disease, Remove Blindness/Deafness, etc. Because curing an ailment is closer to the meaning of the word "cure" than healing an injury.

LuZeke wrote:
Finally, rituals. Obviously the specifics are for the actual playtest, but from this read they sound very 4e to me. I wasn't a fan of rituals there because instead of creating rituals that were new and interesting, it locked old spells behind the ritual mechanic, which seems exactly what's happening here.

This depends how they handle it. I note for example that with the spell upcasting, Raise Dead makes Resurrection redundant as a spell - you would just be able to upcast Raise Dead to do what Resurrection does. However, Resurrection is still in the game. It's been mentioned as a ritual, which allows someone to raise the dead as a longer more expensive and risky process without having to be able to cast the Raise Dead spell.

A lot of spells should never have been spells to begin with. Anything that takes 10 minutes, an hour, a day to cast and takes expensive components should not occupy a spell slot. Creating a demiplane should not be a spell. Guards and wards should not be a spell. These are exactly the things rituals were made for.

However, I don't want to just see old spells converted to rituals... I mean, I want to see that, but I want more. I want new effects too. Whether they do provide new awesome rituals will be a determining factor whether people see them as taking the lazy way out or not.

I do NOT want this to be like the 4E PHB where the ritual section was painfully sparse. I want LOTS of rituals. Give them to me, give them all to me, my precious~


John Lynch 106 wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:
Whati really want to see is the new spell lists. Spells were only added or was any removed?

We'll likely see a handful of them "removed". But in all likelihood the most problematic typically have lesser versions of them available and with 10th level spells existing I expect most of the problematic spells will simply be rebalanced.

For example charm person is a lesser version of dominate person. So one of those two spells might be removed from the game, but you could keep the same effect and tie it to either spell level or with a critical fail (critical fails happen less often then just fails so it balances by making it unreliable to dominate people).

Also am I the only one who struggled to remember how many dice each cure spell is? This'll help me in avoiding that because it'll be a Heal 5 which means I just need to know the formula instead of remembering which number of dice are associated with with name spell.

On dominate person i remember it being spoken about and listed +- how it affects people when they fail or criticaly fail, a reason on another hand i want to see how now we scale DCs since one would want to cause a critical failure, not just a simple failure, so it doesnt only happens in a 1... cause that is one way many spells may turn into a bummer, but this isnt really about the spell list itself, more about the tools casters will have.

Personally im hoping they didnt remove different spells and instead at most moved them up and down the caster list, but that remains to be seem anyway. Heals often are all the same with a simple change to dice numbers, so it does make sense there i agree.

On a side note, it is worth considering like i said the number of spells per day on can cast and how said spells will work with other powers.

For a simple example. We have heal, making it a end turn power literally means it can be spammed much more now, does the list scales out of this or a person could only cast it a couple of times at lower levels? How does this affect lay on hands? Cause i imagine it also takes an action and it also just delivers some healing... so now any cleric can act like they had a paladin power 99% of the time when, assuming there are mercies, said mercies dont activate?

Well, anyway, all to be seem down the line.


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Guys, you do know that unconscious characters get saves per the rules, right? Unconscious means willing only means that creatures who are unconscious don't automatically have to save against spells with the harmless tag, and arguably that they can be targeted by spells requiring a willing target. If I'm unconscious, I still get to make a Will save against your dominate person. Hell, if I'm unconscious I still get to save against your fireball. I'll have an effective Dex of 0 for it, but I can still roll that natural 20 for half damage. Literally the only thing that's happening is a rewording of that ruling because the existing wording has unfortunate implications due to its awkwardness.


this is all cool but FIREBALL example please.

Actually I was excited when I heard the Iron Cannon podcast and that each "component" was an action each. It instantly paints a good picture of how much a certain spell costs to cast, and why you get multiple spells in a turn (if they're all weak enough).

Much excite.

Liberty's Edge

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CLARIFY FROM THE START IF SPELLS AND ABILITIES HAVE SOME FORM OF MANIFESTATION AND IF IT IS VISIBLE, AUDIBLE OR PERCEIVED IN SOME OTHER WAY

Sorry for shouting that, but I think it is important. It change the balance about having access to mind affecting magic.

Personally I am in favor of easily perceptible manifestations that point to the spellcaster, with costly (in term of actions, prerequisites or chance of success) abilities that allow a caster to remove the manifestation, or to make it appear to generate from a different location.

- * - * -

I suppose that now all spellcasters work like the arcanist for spell know/prepared?

- * - * -

Please, be careful with the spell point and related abilities. Having people that go nova in the first two encounters and then ask the party to rest for the whole day is something I (and most if not all of my friends) really dislike.


PossibleCabbage wrote:


Like your comment really seems like a non sequitur.

Perhaps my biggest gripe about the paizo forums is where the reply button is compared to almost every other forum.

He was almost certainly replying to the post above yours about house rules.


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Crusade (10th level spell): as Geas, but each person told of this quest must make a save or become afflicted by the Geas as well.

Saves are made once per week to shake off this quest.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
Heal is taking the place of Cure Wounds. I'm guessing the name Cure is specifically reserved for the line of spells that were previously Remove Disease, Remove Blindness/Deafness, etc. Because curing an ailment is closer to the meaning of the word "cure" than healing an injury.

If Heal has taken the place of Cure, then I hope Cure isn't a spell at all anymore. Instead of saying 3.5, D&D or PF, I'm going to say D20 here: Like it or not, Cure Wounds is closely tied to the identity and feeling of playing D20. As the blog post itself says "There is power in naming something".

Fuzzypaws wrote:


This depends how they handle it. I note for example that with the spell upcasting, Raise Dead makes Resurrection redundant as a spell - you would just be able to upcast Raise Dead to do what Resurrection does. However, Resurrection is still in the game. It's been mentioned as a ritual, which allows someone to raise the dead as a longer more expensive and risky process without having to be able to cast the Raise Dead spell.

A lot of spells should never have been spells to begin with. Anything that takes 10 minutes, an hour, a day to cast and takes expensive components should not occupy a spell slot. Creating a demiplane should not be a spell. Guards and wards should not be a spell. These are exactly the things rituals were made for.

However, I don't want to just see old spells converted to rituals... I mean, I want to see that, but I want more. I want new effects too. Whether they do provide new awesome rituals will be a determining factor whether people see them as taking the lazy way out or not.

I do NOT want this to be like the 4E PHB where the ritual section was painfully sparse. I want LOTS of rituals. Give them to me, give them all to me, my precious~

The issue comes when something a caster could achieve on their own, because they were that powerful, is now arbitrarily made into rituals requiring more people (we don't know if that's truly the case, but it's implied), and be able to be performed by anyone that have put enough ranks into whatever skill the ritual requires. Kinda takes the punch out of the old "take the remnants of your fallen companion and quest to find a high level priest" quest.


Excellent blog post. Very excited to see how this will play out. A little concerned about the increased versatility to casters, which could widen the gap between them and martial classes, but we'll see!

Sovereign Court

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

So some metacurrency pools in PF1 regenerate during the day when certain things happen (Panache, Phrenic Pool depending on your Psychic Discipline, etc.) but a lot of them don't.

Is "regain spell points if something happens" a thing that can be done in PF2?

I hope so. Draconic sorcerers' claws were basically useless because of how little you could use them, making investment in them (Weapon Finesse, etc.) a losing proposition.


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I'm worried that none of these new spells listed will be nearly as good as a 14th level Fighter being able to add their +2 Shield AC to Reflex Saves against a few narrowly defined types of attacks.

I just don't want casters feeling like they can't keep up with the new reality warping powers that are being granted to martials in PF2, so I hope their primary class features are also doing amazing things like providing minor highly situational numeric boosts.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:

I'm worried that none of these new spells listed will be nearly as good as a 14th level Fighter being able to add their +2 Shield AC to Reflex Saves against a few narrowly defined types of attacks.

I just don't want casters feeling like they can't keep up with the new reality warping powers that are being granted to martials in PF2, so I hope their primary class features are also doing amazing things like providing minor highly situational numeric boosts.

If, as some people suspect, you are going to add your character level to your AC, then I wouldn't worry, since the +2 AC that fighter gets is going to seriously overshadow the +14 AC that the party Wizard gets, just for turning up.


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A lot of the changes in this blog sound like things I was thinking of, although I would have kept Cantrips/Orisons/Knacks/etc. as 0-level spells (in part to avoid the problem of Light or Detect Illusion automatically winning against spells cast by just slightly lower level casters). I was also thinking of expanding the spell levels (for full casters) to 12 levels for the same reason as the blog states for going to 10 levels, but also enabling some more decompression of the spell levels (that is, below what is currently 9th level).

+1 on wanting a different name for "Spell Points".

Finally (for now, since nobody took a shot at it), I have to say that Fabricated Truth sounds an awful lot like a disturbingly effective Extraordinary Ability from our world . . . .

Sovereign Court

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Ninja in the Rye wrote:

I'm worried that none of these new spells listed will be nearly as good as a 14th level Fighter being able to add their +2 Shield AC to Reflex Saves against a few narrowly defined types of attacks.

I just don't want casters feeling like they can't keep up with the new reality warping powers that are being granted to martials in PF2, so I hope their primary class features are also doing amazing things like providing minor highly situational numeric boosts.

While this made me laugh really hard I still think this is a narrow interpretation of that ability. Just because a basic shield is +2 didn't mean that a legendary one isn't +5. Not do we have the full extent of the ability. Can you then shield block the damage? Can you build into spell turning/reflect? We just don't have the info yet.

Sovereign Court

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Wolfism wrote:
It's too bad, sorcerer could have really been something interesting and different. Maybe they still will be but if their main shtick is still being a spontaneous version of the wizard and the wizard doesn't get to be more like the much cooler Arcanist then I think they've missed a real opportunity.

For the record, I (personally) like the sorcerer as "spontaneous arcane caster using the wizard list, plus cool bloodline powers" and hope it stays that way. It's not quite make-or-break for me, but it will significantly impact my interest in the game.

Silver Crusade

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Ninja in the Rye wrote:

I'm worried that none of these new spells listed will be nearly as good as a 14th level Fighter being able to add their +2 Shield AC to Reflex Saves against a few narrowly defined types of attacks.

I just don't want casters feeling like they can't keep up with the new reality warping powers that are being granted to martials in PF2, so I hope their primary class features are also doing amazing things like providing minor highly situational numeric boosts.

Don't worry. I'm on good authority that a 1st level PF2 fighter can initiate the Celestial Dragon Neko Neko Nyan Nyan Omnislash manoeuvrer, which allows you to swing your sword, designate any object within 20 miles of you and INSTANTLY SLASH THAT OBJECT APART IN TWO no saves, instant death. You can slash apart objects and creatures as large as a mountain.

At level 2, you can slash apart the equivalent of three mountains.

At level 3, you can slash apart an entire mountain range.

At level 4, you additionally summon a host of Angel-Devils, each of which can conjure a swarm of meteor penguins. They do no damage, but they look cool and sing your favourite anime opening.

I realise that people will likely go up their arms because that means Fighters don't get cool out-of-combat utility until level 4 (not that slashing mountains apart doesn't have cool uses like opening cans or sealed envelopes) but hey, some folks just won't ever be happy.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

Lots to digest here, much of which sounds good. Not sure what to make of auto-scaling cantrips though. It seems that there's a place for things like a low level detect magic or light spell which doesn't get more powerful, which all/most casters have. By making utility spells like this auto-scale, you still have the problem that an at-will ability can automatically defeat entire classes of other spells (illusions or darkness).

I'd rather see these types of spells require some investment rather than be an always available option. Even if they need to be heightened to defeat their reversed school, that still means they'll always do so from a higher level caster.

Do cantrips have to start at "0-level"? If light were say level 2, but dancing lights was a level 1 cantrip, and you had to learn higher level cantrips at the expense of another spell that would at least make it not a default spell known by everyone who'd be able to nullify magic darkness all the time.

We've had mention of the Detect Magic interaction. Illusions are protected from Detect Magic of equal or lower spell level. So, as compared to before where it just sucked for you, your top-level slots are now getting free protection from Detect Magic.

Sort of. They're getting free protection from lower level spellcasters. Guys that can cast the same level of spells as you still go through your illusions, since detect magic will autoscale to your best spell level (since it's still a cantrip).

Notice the blog specifies:

"Now, illusions of a higher spell level than a detect magic cantrip can foil detection!"

So it'll work against mooks, but the big bad can still detect magic his way through your illusions.

If I am not mistaken he will use a higher level slot to do that. So defeating your 4th level illusion will require a 4th level detect magic. I am unsure, but it seem that you can use at will 0 level spell slot spells, not heightened 0 level spells.


Nox Aeterna wrote:
on another hand i want to see how now we scale DCs since one would want to cause a critical failure, not just a simple failure, so it doesnt only happens in a 1... cause that is one way many spells may turn into a bummer, but this isnt really about the spell list itself, more about the tools casters will have.

Some spells will be nerfed. Some spells could be nerfed quite heavily. Other spells may no longer be viable against at-level foes and only really work against lower level foes.

Like everything else, I expect DC's will scale with +level, but we don't know for sure.

Nox Aeterna wrote:
Personally im hoping they didnt remove different spells

Well we know Mass Cure light Wounds is gone. And given how rarely I see it cast (almost never) I think we're better off for it's removal. Heal 1 (3 actions) is a much better option and not an autochoice.

Nox Aeterna wrote:
it is worth considering like i said the number of spells per day on can cast and how said spells will work with other powers.

I'm very interested in that number as well. If we see spell slots paired down to just 1 or 2 spell slots per level then a wizard is going to play very differently vs a wizard with the PF 1e spell slots available to them. Given we don't have autoscaling spells I'm really hoping they haven't cut out most spell slots.


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There's a lot to like here, but I am a little concerned about prepared casters needing to prep heightened spells, rather than use the arcanist/5e preparation system. On the one hand, this is an AMAZING way to finally give spontaneous casters an advantage. No longer will the sorcerer be "a wizard with less flexibility and spells known." On the other, this makes figuring out what spells to prepare so. freaking. complex. How many d8s of heal will I need? Oy. I can't see how a new player could handle a cleric or wizard in this system.


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LuZeke wrote:
Kinda takes the punch out of the old "take the remnants of your fallen companion and quest to find a high level priest" quest.

How often do you have those sorts of quests? Because the group I play with always has a healer and then some way of making sure the healer can be brought back to life (even if it means a scroll of raise dead with the rogue UMDing it). We'd also be disinclined to do this because it means one of our players doesn't get to play until we finished the quest unless we give them a temp PC.

Captain Morgan wrote:
I am a little concerned about prepared casters needing to prep heightened spells, rather than use the arcanist/5e preparation system.

How is that not the exact same situation we currently have for prepared casters? It's supposed to be part of the reason they get so many spell slots. They're not meant to use every single one every day. They exist so that they have an arsenal at this disposal regardless of what they face (this may only be true pre-3e and may have been broken in 3e-PF1e).

Maybe forget about it D&D 5e. Think of it this way: Cure Light Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Deadly Wounds, etc all still exist. However instead of taking up half a page or a page worth of space in the core rulebook, they've optimised the space to just be a couple of paragraphs. Not only that, they've introduced 6 more cure spells of level 5+ that you can now prepare.

I expect Delayed Fireball will be gone. However I won't be surprised if a metamagic feat called Delay Spell now exists in it's place.


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Very excited for PF2E, I love the changes but... the names of the new spells are SO GENERIC AND UNINSPIRING, surely you can do better than "spiritual epidemic" right? It sounds powerful but I can't help myself yawning when I say it.

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