Fuzzy Feet and Voles to Meet

Friday, April 13, 2018

Overlooked and disrespected, halflings and gnomes get by in their own way. Human society's misguided expectations don't mean much when you know who you are and what you're about. Let's take a look at the ancestry entries for these folks!

You might also want to take a gander at the Big Beards and Pointy Ears blog to see how dwarves and elves work if you're a fan of ancestries that are entirely too tall and entirely too stuffy.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Halflings

Living among taller folk gives halflings a good bit of perspective and plenty of opportunities to make new friends—plenty of opportunities of all kinds, really. Keep your eyes open and your heart brave, and you can accomplish anything!

Both halflings and gnomes get 8 Hit Points from their respective ancestries, are Small, and have a speed of 20 feet. A halfling speaks Common and Halfling. Halflings have nimble fingers, giving them an ability boost to Dexterity, and are jovial, getting another ability boost in Charisma. They also get one free ability boost to put in any score. Now, there's nothing wrong with how you're made, but halflings do get an ability flaw to Strength. Seems like a better deal, though. Goblins are a bit stronger, but they're not so wise, and good sense is a good trade. (You can read more about goblins here!)

We've mentioned ability boosts and flaws a few times now, so let's go into more detail about how those work! At 1st level, your ability scores all start at 10. Your ancestry then gives you ability boosts, each of which increases the score by 2. Most ancestries get three ability boosts, two of which have to go into specific scores. The remaining free ability boost can go into any score except the two set ones. Most ancestries also get a flaw, which decreases a designated score by 2. You can put your free ability boost in the same score as your flaw if you want to get back to 10. In later parts of character creation, you'll get more ability boosts, which we'll cover in later blogs! (And if you want to roll your ability scores randomly, we have an option for that in the playtest so you can see how that might work, though we prefer for characters used in the playtest to be generated in the standard way.)

Now, where was I? Halflings, right!

At 1st level and as they level up, halflings can pick up halfling ancestry feats that take advantage of their size, their gumption, and their fabled luck. Distracting Shadows lets them sneak around by using larger creatures as cover. They might also pick up Plucky to overcome fear and other detriments to their emotions. They can take Titan Slinger to get a bonus to damage when using their slings against Large or larger creatures. This bonus increases on critical hits, even before being doubled! Additionally, the sling is now a more formidable weapon than in Pathfinder First Edition—we've both increased its damage and done away with the difference in damage die size between Small and Medium creatures. A halfling with a sling can be pretty dangerous!

One feat we know will be popular is Lucky Halfling, which lets you reroll one skill check or saving throw you fail or critically fail once each day. Rules in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook list traits that apply to feats, often indicating special rules. This one has the fortune trait, which appears on all sorts of things that involve rerolls and manipulating dice in your favor. You can benefit from fortune only once on a given roll, and misfortune can cancel it out.

As mentioned in the blog post about dwarves and elves, ancestry entries suggest some backgrounds you might choose that are common for those of your ancestry. Halflings are often entertainers, acrobats, or street urchins. Many come from hard lives as criminals or laborers.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Gnomes

What's THAT?!

A gnome's life is a constant barrage of the curious, the compelling, the cacophonous, the colorful, and the chaotic. There's always something new to discover. There... kind of has to be. See, gnomes who don't take in enough novel experiences are stricken by the Bleaching—their colorful hair turns white as their minds fall into despair. So let's not do that. Let's explore!

Now, when you're exploring, it's good to be durable because who knows what you might encounter. It helps that gnomes are tough and charming, with ability boosts to Constitution and Charisma, plus their one free ability boost to any other score. Gnomes have a flaw in Strength. Who needs it? Magic's better. And alchemical bombs. Those look fun. Gnomes can speak Common, Gnome, and Sylvan, but might want to study up on some other languages too. They can also see in low light—all the better for exploring into the dusk.

Gnomes came from the First World, the realm of the fey, long ago. Their ancestry feats can reflect this, like Fey Fellowship, which makes a gnome more charismatic when dealing with fey, or First World Magic, which gives the gnome a cantrip spell chosen from a wide number of options (including dancing lights, prestidigitation, and tanglefoot, to name a few).

Discerning Smell lets a gnome truly appreciate peculiar food and drink, or sniff out that invisible orc who's caked in the clay from a particular mountain pass, hasn't bathed in roughly 8 years, and recently ate a live bird. (A swallow, fittingly.) And, of course, you can choose Animal Speaker so you can talk to all your favorite burrowing animals!

A gnome's younger years will no doubt be weird, so they could have any kind of background—even a path they abandoned early on. A gnome might be an entertainer, a merchant, a nomad, an animal whisperer, a barkeep, or a farmhand.

How do these two ancestries stack up? (About 6 feet high, I'd say.) What sort of halfling or gnome characters do you look forward to playing?

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am fine with gnomes and halflings having a charisma bonus, it's goblins that don't make sense.

have goblins with a +2Dex +2Int -2Wis.

Have orcs instead of half-orcs and give them +2Str +2Wis -2Int.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
kaid wrote:
Aldarc wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a stage of PF1 beta where Jason had been considering giving halflings +2 Wisdom instead of Charisma to be more different than gnomes but it got changed due to passionate feedback in favor of Charisma, so there's certainly precedent for changing the ability adjustments due to feedback!
I hope so, because having all three small races having bonuses to Charisma is a little too much to bare. I would be on board with giving Halflings a bonus to Wisdom (resist the One Ring!) and Gnomes a bonus to Intelligence (illusionists!). Anything that made the small ancestries feel less "samey" in their stats. While the floating bonus can be placed anywhere, people aren't going to be getting their impression of the ancestries from floating numbers, but from the hardwired bonuses.
Of the three halflings make sense to have the boost to charisma. Goblins are kinda eyebrow raising for + charisma and gnomes are much more known for their intelligence than their charisma.
Golarion's fey blooded anime haired gnomes have never struck me as being linked to intelligence. They're more wild and innately magical, hence the CHA boost.

This last part: 100%. This is also why I think Charisma is good for Gnomes. Intelligence isn't a bad choice; I just think Charisma is better for Golarion's Gnomes.


"At 1st level, your ability scores all start at 10. Your ancestry then gives you ability boosts, each of which increases the score by 2. Most ancestries get three ability boosts, two of which have to go into specific scores. The remaining free ability boost can go into any score except the two set ones. Most ancestries also get a flaw, which decreases a designated score by 2."

So, is that all characters get at level 1? I certainly hope that those bonuses are in addition to the regular point-buy system. Starting out with +1 to three scores and -1 to another sounds like a recipe for weak, fragile characters.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Like others I'm not a big fan of all 3 small races getting a CHA boost.

Am I reading the section on ability boosts correctly? The ability boost will be applied before stats are assigned? So a Halfling will start with 12 DEX instead of 10 and then the point buy will go from there?

It sounds like there is no point buy per se, just several sets of ability ups that all work the same. So it might go something like this:

Ancestry: +2 to two specific stats, floating +2, -2 to one stat.
Background: +2 to one specific stat, two floating +2s,
Class: +2 to one specific stat (Wis for Clerics for example), two floating +2s,
Final Step: One final floating +2,

With no floating bonus allowed to go in the same stat as that stage's set bonuses.

It's something like that anyway.

I for one, hope not. I like the simple control over character creation that point buy presents. I am going to end up with the same character anyway, if I can help it. I don't want to have to scroll through lists of background and ancestry feats to find just the right ability score boosts.


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murphadurph wrote:

"At 1st level, your ability scores all start at 10. Your ancestry then gives you ability boosts, each of which increases the score by 2. Most ancestries get three ability boosts, two of which have to go into specific scores. The remaining free ability boost can go into any score except the two set ones. Most ancestries also get a flaw, which decreases a designated score by 2."

So, is that all characters get at level 1? I certainly hope that those bonuses are in addition to the regular point-buy system. Starting out with +1 to three scores and -1 to another sounds like a recipe for weak, fragile characters.

I think it's been heavily implied, if not outright stated somewhere, that other factors such as backgrounds will further increase the ability scores.


So we can safely surmise that there is some sort of point buy going on. It is not "the highest you can start with is a 12" by any stretch.

I certainly hope so!


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We know characters can start with an 18.


Gnomes are great crafters, inventors, engineeres, tinkerers, alchemists, astronomers. Backward compatible or not, some things have to change. +2 to intelligence is a no-brainer, constitution just makes no sense, especially in PF2E noone will miss it. Now that goblins are a core race they can be portrayed as antagonists or rivals.


GameDemon wrote:
Gnomes are great crafters, inventors, engineeres, tinkerers, alchemists, astronomers. Backward compatible or not, some things have to change. +2 to intelligence is a no-brainer, constitution just makes no sense, especially in PF2E noone will miss it. Now that goblins are a core race they can be portrayed as antagonists or rivals.

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting intelligence and Charisma for Gnomes? And are you suggesting intelligence for goblins? I just am not really sure what exactly and specifically your points are.


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I think they're saying Int Cha for gnomes and Dex Int for goblins, yeah.

Int Cha would actually be okay for Golarion Gnomes. It would move them fully away from the "reskinned Dwarf" space, and emphasize both their inherent curiosity and their extroversion. And it would mean we wouldn't have so many races with +Dex and could get more than just elves with +Int.


Fuzzypaws wrote:

I think they're saying Int Cha for gnomes and Dex Int for goblins, yeah.

Int Cha would actually be okay for Golarion Gnomes. It would move them fully away from the "reskinned Dwarf" space, and emphasize both their inherent curiosity and their extroversion. And it would mean we wouldn't have so many races with +Dex and could get more than just elves with +Int.

Hmmm... That'd be interesting, but I'm working off the assumption that they want to keep it one mental bonus, one physical.

EDIT: also, gnomes were not a + dex race.


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GameDemon wrote:
Gnomes are great crafters, inventors, engineeres, tinkerers, alchemists, astronomers. Backward compatible or not, some things have to change. +2 to intelligence is a no-brainer, constitution just makes no sense, especially in PF2E noone will miss it. Now that goblins are a core race they can be portrayed as antagonists or rivals.

This sounds a little too much like World of Warcraft. Goblin engineers versus Gnome engineers. The key difference is goblin stuff explodes and gnome stuff irradiates.


Gregg Reece wrote:
GameDemon wrote:
Gnomes are great crafters, inventors, engineeres, tinkerers, alchemists, astronomers. Backward compatible or not, some things have to change. +2 to intelligence is a no-brainer, constitution just makes no sense, especially in PF2E noone will miss it. Now that goblins are a core race they can be portrayed as antagonists or rivals.
This sounds a little too much like World of Warcraft. Goblin engineers versus Gnome engineers. The key difference is goblin stuff explodes and gnome stuff irradiates.

Another reason I am fine with Charisma Gnomes


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
murphadurph wrote:

So we can safely surmise that there is some sort of point buy going on. It is not "the highest you can start with is a 12" by any stretch.

I certainly hope so!

I think the process is something like this:

1) Start with all 10s.

2) Apply modifiers for ancestry.

3+) Perform further steps (details as yet unrevealed) to boost ability scores for other reasons.

It does seem likely that no ability score would be higher than 12 after step 2, but we already know from the playtest recordings that step 3+ can raise at least one ability score to 18 and others to at least 14.


Gnomes should have Charisma as they are outgoing and sociable in pursuit of new experiences.
Halflings have Charisma because... well, there's not really anything else to give them, and they're presented as being generally decent people to be around.
Goblins... should not have Charisma because they're generally unkempt, argumentative, and have no real regard for others. However, they should not have a penalty to Charisma either, since they're still very expressive, extroverted, and have a large social impact.
Goblins are presented as nimble, resilient, and utterly tactless. I would say they warrant a +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, and -2 Wisdom.


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Bloodrealm wrote:

Gnomes should have Charisma as they are outgoing and sociable in pursuit of new experiences.

Halflings have Charisma because... well, there's not really anything else to give them, and they're presented as being generally decent people to be around.
Goblins... should not have Charisma because they're generally unkempt, argumentative, and have no real regard for others. However, they should not have a penalty to Charisma either, since they're still very expressive, extroverted, and have a large social impact.
Goblins are presented as nimble, resilient, and utterly tactless. I would say they warrant a +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, and -2 Wisdom.

But there is something to give them, and it's Wisdom. You can even go and read the blog post from the developer, and it mentions halflings valuing good sense. Except they don't have particular good sense. They just don't have a penalty like goblins do.

I agree that Gnomes should get charisma. I just think that wisdom is not only more suitable for halflings, but it will also help differentiate them from the other small races.

EDIT: Also I would posit that "generally decent to be around" (which is a great description of Halflings, by the way) does not necessarily a charismatic person make. A pleasant one, assuredly, but that's not exactly the same as charismatic, at least in my opinion.

Liberty's Edge

murphadurph wrote:
So, is that all characters get at level 1? I certainly hope that those bonuses are in addition to the regular point-buy system. Starting out with +1 to three scores and -1 to another sounds like a recipe for weak, fragile characters.

As others note, no, that's not all you get.

David knott 242 wrote:
It does seem likely that no ability score would be higher than 12 after step 2, but we already know from the playtest recordings that step 3+ can raise at least one ability score to 18 and others to at least 14.

Actually, the Goblin Alchemist pregen has Int 18 and Dex 16, so we know it can get you an 18 and a 16 at the least. along with Kyra having 18, 14, 14, 12, and then probably two 10s.

So we know it can get you an 18/16 and that it can result in slightly better stats that 20 point buy in PF1.

It may or may not be able to get you two 18s, but it can do most reasonable things short of that.


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Do you happen to know the rest of the Goblin Alchemist's stats? They could be useful for discerning a pattern to the whole ability score generation system.

Grand Lodge

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Mbertorch wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:

I think they're saying Int Cha for gnomes and Dex Int for goblins, yeah.

Int Cha would actually be okay for Golarion Gnomes. It would move them fully away from the "reskinned Dwarf" space, and emphasize both their inherent curiosity and their extroversion. And it would mean we wouldn't have so many races with +Dex and could get more than just elves with +Int.

Hmmm... That'd be interesting, but I'm working off the assumption that they want to keep it one mental bonus, one physical.

EDIT: also, gnomes were not a + dex race.

I hope that the designers don't restrict themselves to arbitrary rules like one physical one mental bonus for the sake of symmetry. It opens up a much larger design space if you can go for any two that seem right. With the other floating bonus, you can cover what you want on an individual basis. Although I guess having three mental bonuses is not great for any class with the way spells etc work, but three physical makes that race default for basic warrior types. So maybe no two physical bonus races? Dunno.


I think the only combo they need to be particularly careful of is +Str +Dex, which is good enough that it might "eat" a minor racial ability in compensation. Pretty much every other combo is fine. Con is a secondary ability score, not primary for any build other than facetankers, and Str/Con or Dex/Con should be fine, just like Int/Cha or Wis/Cha or Int/Wis should be fine.

EDIT: And before someone says "Dex/Con/Any is the same as Str/Dex/Con," the Any could also be used with Dex/Cha to get Str/Dex. Again, I don't consider Con important enough to be worth wringing hands over. Especially since it doesn't look like you can get past 18 starting in any stat, you can only get to 18 if you have a racial bonus there.


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Mbertorch wrote:
murphadurph wrote:

"At 1st level, your ability scores all start at 10. Your ancestry then gives you ability boosts, each of which increases the score by 2. Most ancestries get three ability boosts, two of which have to go into specific scores. The remaining free ability boost can go into any score except the two set ones. Most ancestries also get a flaw, which decreases a designated score by 2."

So, is that all characters get at level 1? I certainly hope that those bonuses are in addition to the regular point-buy system. Starting out with +1 to three scores and -1 to another sounds like a recipe for weak, fragile characters.

I think it's been heavily implied, if not outright stated somewhere, that other factors such as backgrounds will further increase the ability scores.

Hopefully. Maybe I'ma traditionalist, but I find a good old point-buy system much more intuitive than searching through background and ancestry feats for ability bonuses. But, we'll see.

Liberty's Edge

David knott 242 wrote:

Do you happen to know the rest of the Goblin Alchemist's stats? They could be useful for discerning a pattern to the whole ability score generation system.

No, sadly. Kyra and his stats are both from the same demo game, and only the guy playing Kyra read off more than the top two (and even he only read off four). Still, it means you can have an 18/16, which is good info to have.

Also, have people here actually tried a lifepath system (which this appears to be basically a very simple version of) before? They're actually pretty easy and intuitive once you get used to them. If the different options give unequal bonuses it can be a real problem, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.


murphadurph wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:
murphadurph wrote:

"At 1st level, your ability scores all start at 10. Your ancestry then gives you ability boosts, each of which increases the score by 2. Most ancestries get three ability boosts, two of which have to go into specific scores. The remaining free ability boost can go into any score except the two set ones. Most ancestries also get a flaw, which decreases a designated score by 2."

So, is that all characters get at level 1? I certainly hope that those bonuses are in addition to the regular point-buy system. Starting out with +1 to three scores and -1 to another sounds like a recipe for weak, fragile characters.

I think it's been heavily implied, if not outright stated somewhere, that other factors such as backgrounds will further increase the ability scores.
Hopefully. Maybe I'ma traditionalist, but I find a good old point-buy system much more intuitive than searching through background and ancestry feats for ability bonuses. But, we'll see.

There is usually 2 to 5 different generation methods in the core books.


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Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Do you happen to know the rest of the Goblin Alchemist's stats? They could be useful for discerning a pattern to the whole ability score generation system.

No, sadly. Kyra and his stats are both from the same demo game, and only the guy playing Kyra read off more than the top two (and even he only read off four). Still, it means you can have an 18/16, which is good info to have.

Also, have people here actually tried a lifepath system (which this appears to be basically a very simple version of) before? They're actually pretty easy and intuitive once you get used to them. If the different options give unequal bonuses it can be a real problem, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I am suspecting something of that sort. I am hoping to figure out where the breakpoint is that the increases go from 2 to 1, but if both characters have one stat at 18 and none above 16, I suspect that the sums of their ability scores will be equal.

Liberty's Edge

David knott 242 wrote:

I am suspecting something of that sort. I am hoping to figure out where the breakpoint is that the increases go from 2 to 1, but if both characters have one stat at 18 and none above 16, I suspect that the sums of their ability scores will be equal.

Agreed. The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that there's no breakpoint for greater cost, one of the four stages just has only one Ability Up (probably Class). That explains nobody having more than one 18.

So, for example:

Ancestry: +2 to two set stats, -2 to one set stat, floating +2 (or, for humans, probably two floating +2s).
Background: +2 to one set stat, floating +2
Class: +2 to one set stat (some classes may get a choice of two, like Fighters getting Str or Dex).
First Ability Boost: Four floating +2s (this is hypothesized since this is what you'll likely get at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter, giving you one at 1st would make sense).

That's my current theory on how it probably works, anyway.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I've been thinking, specifically about feedback on the topic of all 3 Small races having similar bonuses, and hope that if the feedback comes in that people passionately want more distinction there, and also that there's strong, but maybe not quite as strong feedback about preferring goblins not be a core race, that these are considered in tandem, since looking at them separately might result in the conclusion that one of the three races should have a different bonus than Charisma, but looking at them combined might result in deciding that goblins shouldn't be core after all (which also would alleviate the issue of having 3 Small races with the same bonus to Charisma).


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I really don't want 10 million dex/cha options in PF2 like we had in PF1 anyway. By my count- Halflings, Kitsune, Dhampir, Catfolk, Fetchlings, Ifrit, Drow, Gathlains, Vishkanaya, Musetouched Aasimar, Spitespawn Tieflings, Beastbrood Tieflings, Weretiger-kin Skinwalkers.

But I would much rather keep Goblins in core, at Dex/Cha and put Halflings as Dex/Wis. Wisdom was the rarest mental stat to pair with dexterity in PF1- I count only 9 including the rarely played Kasatha and Svirfneblin.


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JoelF847 wrote:
I've been thinking, specifically about feedback on the topic of all 3 Small races having similar bonuses, and hope that if the feedback comes in that people passionately want more distinction there, and also that there's strong, but maybe not quite as strong feedback about preferring goblins not be a core race, that these are considered in tandem, since looking at them separately might result in the conclusion that one of the three races should have a different bonus than Charisma, but looking at them combined might result in deciding that goblins shouldn't be core after all (which also would alleviate the issue of having 3 Small races with the same bonus to Charisma).

I would rather have goblins in core, and more distinction between Halflings and Gnomes, than goblins out of core, and Halflings and Gnomes still both having Charisma. Those two are currently too similar.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I really don't want 10 million dex/cha options in PF2 like we had in PF1 anyway. By my count- Halflings, Kitsune, Dhampir, Catfolk, Fetchlings, Ifrit, Drow, Gathlains, Vishkanaya, Musetouched Aasimar, Spitespawn Tieflings, Beastbrood Tieflings, Weretiger-kin Skinwalkers.

But I would much rather keep Goblins in core, at Dex/Cha and put Halflings as Dex/Wis. Wisdom was the rarest mental stat to pair with dexterity in PF1- I count only 9 including the rarely played Kasatha and Svirfneblin.

This. 100 times and 100% this.

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, I don't think any two core ancestries should have more than one Ability mod in common. Gnomes and Halflings have two even ignoring the existence of Goblins, and that's a problem.


IMO:
Gnomes: stay the same
Halfling: change +cha -> +Wis
Shift goblin out of core: Stats + con and dex - wis


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graystone wrote:

IMO:

Gnomes: stay the same
Halfling: change +cha -> +Wis
Shift goblin out of core: Stats + con and dex - wis

And add in Kobolds instead right?


By the way, in case anyone didn't notice, the rule in Pathfinder 1st Edition wasn't that you couldn't have 2 physical bonuses or 2 mental bonuses -- it just cost slightly more, and some races (although none of the core ones) had this feature.

To build upon (and slightly alter) what I posted above about sub-races sub-ancestries, to include all the Core races ancestries (leaving out the floating bonus unless it is something special):

Dwarves could be +Con +Wis -Cha for Hill Dwarves, and +Con +Wis -Dex for Mountain Dwarves.

Elves could be +Dex +Int -Con for High Elves, +Dex +Cha -Con for Eldritch Elves (including Drow), and +Dex +Wis (and no penalty, but miss out on some other Elven stuff) for Wild Elves.

Gnomes could be +Con +Cha for Bon Vivant Gnomes, +Con +Int for Tinker Gnomes, and +Dex +Int for Bleachlings.

Goblins could be +Dex +Con -Wis for Common Goblins, but +Dex +Int -Wis for Crafty Goblins.

Halflings could be +Dex +Wis -Str for Stout Halflings, but +Dex +Cha -Str for Ingratiating Halflings (this corresponds to the Pathfinder 1st Edition Halfling Ingratiating alternate racial trait, but expands upon it to change ability score bonuses).

Humans and Half-Humans could be 2 floating bonuses and a floating penalty, which can be put on top of 1 of the floating bonuses (effectively getting just single floating bonus); Dual-Talent Humans could be 2 floating bonuses and no penalty in return for trading out something else.


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Remember that everyone gets a floating bonus to any ability score that they don't already have a bonus to, so that could work out to just 2 floating bonuses (and no penalties) for humans and half-humans. 3 floating bonuses and 1 floating penalty seems a little absurd.


^That's what I meant. Maybe I shouldn't have left out the floating bonuses for the races ancestries that just get 1.


Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
graystone wrote:

IMO:

Gnomes: stay the same
Halfling: change +cha -> +Wis
Shift goblin out of core: Stats + con and dex - wis
And add in Kobolds instead right?

LOL IMO that's make a better core 'race' than goblin. ;)


graystone wrote:
Definitely NOT a certain Kobold wrote:
graystone wrote:

IMO:

Gnomes: stay the same
Halfling: change +cha -> +Wis
Shift goblin out of core: Stats + con and dex - wis
And add in Kobolds instead right?
LOL IMO that's make a better core 'race' than goblin. ;)

WE (kobolds) CHOOSE GRAYSTONE AS OUR NEW AMBASSADOR. may you bring us much silver and protect our candles!


If Kobolds are not in core, which I don't think they will be (sadly), then I hope people's passionate outcry for them means they will follow very shortly afterwards. And that they won't be as penalized as they were in PF1.


I have no problem with those three races having the same stat bonuses. It makes a certain kind of sense culturo-physiologically in Golarion.

Then again, I'm only going to play one of them, and it isn't the ones with silly feet or manga hair*.

*Big fan of manga hair, not a fan of gnomes.


One of my hopes is that since anyone can put a floating bonus in a "raw power" stat like strength or intelligence, that now we'll be less hesitant to print ancestries with any combination of stats. I know that Str/Int (one kind of Dhampir) and Con/Int (bupkiss) were the rarest phsyical/mental stat pairings in PF1.


OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:

I have no problem with those three races having the same stat bonuses. It makes a certain kind of sense culturo-physiologically in Golarion.

Then again, I'm only going to play one of them, and it isn't the ones with silly feet or manga hair*.

*Big fan of manga hair, not a fan of gnomes.

I, on the other hand, am interested in playing all three, so would appreciate some inherent variety.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
One of my hopes is that since anyone can put a floating bonus in a "raw power" stat like strength or intelligence, that now we'll be less hesitant to print ancestries with any combination of stats. I know that Str/Int (one kind of Dhampir) and Con/Int (bupkiss) were the rarest phsyical/mental stat pairings in PF1.

There is one Con/Int race: the yaddithian. ^_^


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Isabelle Lee wrote:
There is one Con/Int race: the yaddithian. ^_^

Bestiary 6 coming through in the clutch (I don't have that one yet).


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Also, another point. And I feel like I'm not going to convey what I'm trying to well enough, but here goes.

The inherent ability scores act as a guideline of sorts, if you will, as to how to roleplay the races, ESPECIALLY for new players and players whose strengths in the game are other than roleplaying. For example, if you play a Dwarf, you're a bit gruff, but sensible. Or, you're a reckless but pleasant Dwarf, and therefore an exceptional one.

So, having all small ancestries have a Charisma bonus guides these types of players to play these ancestries in somewhat of a similar vein. One is not obligated to do so, by any means, but many people look for assistance in their creativity, and ability scores have an impact here, and not just in mechanics.

This is just another reason why I think Halflings should get a Wisdom bonus instead of Charisma. It emphasizes them as a sensible people, which fits with the lore of Golarion, the post this thread is built upon, and, I think, how many people end up roleplaying them.

Another point. Many people are not fond of how reckless and curious and zany the Gnomes are. And since Halflings are currently also Charismatic and share some of those qualities, I think Gnomes are roleplayed as being incredibly so, since they have to me more so than Halflings, right? Well, make Halflings sensible and Wisdom-oriented, and then Gnomes just have to be Charismatic and zany, not MORE Charismatic and MORE zany. Which may help them be accepted at some tables. Maybe.

Anyway, I know this was long, but I wanted to give conveying it to everyone a shot. Thanks!


Mbertorch wrote:
Bloodrealm wrote:

Gnomes should have Charisma as they are outgoing and sociable in pursuit of new experiences.

Halflings have Charisma because... well, there's not really anything else to give them, and they're presented as being generally decent people to be around.
Goblins... should not have Charisma because they're generally unkempt, argumentative, and have no real regard for others. However, they should not have a penalty to Charisma either, since they're still very expressive, extroverted, and have a large social impact.
Goblins are presented as nimble, resilient, and utterly tactless. I would say they warrant a +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, and -2 Wisdom.

But there is something to give them, and it's Wisdom. You can even go and read the blog post from the developer, and it mentions halflings valuing good sense. Except they don't have particular good sense. They just don't have a penalty like goblins do.

I agree that Gnomes should get charisma. I just think that wisdom is not only more suitable for halflings, but it will also help differentiate them from the other small races.

EDIT: Also I would posit that "generally decent to be around" (which is a great description of Halflings, by the way) does not necessarily a charismatic person make. A pleasant one, assuredly, but that's not exactly the same as charismatic, at least in my opinion.

Fair enough. I'm not a fan of Halflings, so I couldn't really think of anything for them.


Bloodrealm wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:
Bloodrealm wrote:

Gnomes should have Charisma as they are outgoing and sociable in pursuit of new experiences.

Halflings have Charisma because... well, there's not really anything else to give them, and they're presented as being generally decent people to be around.
Goblins... should not have Charisma because they're generally unkempt, argumentative, and have no real regard for others. However, they should not have a penalty to Charisma either, since they're still very expressive, extroverted, and have a large social impact.
Goblins are presented as nimble, resilient, and utterly tactless. I would say they warrant a +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, and -2 Wisdom.
But there is something to give them, and it's Wisdom...
Fair enough. I'm not a fan of Halflings, so I couldn't really think of anything for them.

Okay, cool. It's all good. :)

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