Alchemist Class Preview

Monday, April 9, 2018

Just read any messageboards or comment threads, and you'll realize this truth about people: some of them love to throw bombs and blow things up. It's a visceral thrill. Lobbing bombs is dramatic and fun, and every so often all of us love to watch something burn. If you enjoy this activity more than most, do we have a class for you!

So far we've previewed the fighter and the rogue. You might have thought we'd showcase one of the original spellcasting classes next, but that involves talking a bit more about spellcasting, so instead, we decided to unleash the secrets of the alchemist in our newest preview of the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook.

In the early days of Pathfinder First Edition, the alchemist saw release in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide. Since then, the alchemist has proven to be very popular. Unsurprisingly, when we surveyed the player base about what classes see the most play, the alchemist rose right to the top (along with the oracle, but more on that in a later preview). That alone would have promoted the class into the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, but tackling the alchemist early on during the design process was beneficial for another reason: it allowed us to take a hard look at alchemical item design with the alchemist in mind rather than as a later add-on.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Alchemist Features

While anyone trained in Crafting can take the Alchemical Crafter skill feat and craft their own alchemical items, the alchemist is much better at this crafting discipline. At 1st level, he gains Alchemical Crafter and a formula book for free, along with four bonus alchemical item formulas (for a total of eight, including the four from Alchemical Crafter). Each time he levels up, he gains two more formulas. This is on top of ones he either discovers or invents. Not only does he gain more access to alchemical tricks, by way of advanced alchemy and the quick alchemy action, but he can also spend resonance to create alchemical objects on the fly, though such hasty concoctions are potent for only a short period.

Crafting is all well and good, but what about bombing potential? The alchemist's bombs are now the basic alchemical items you are familiar with: things like alchemist fire, thunderstones, acid flasks and so on. He crafts these items and lobs them. At 3rd level, he gains the empower bomb feature, which allows him to multiply the damage of the bombs he creates. This multiplier increases with level until it reaches six times the alchemical bomb's base damage at 19th level.

But that's only the start—at 5th level the alchemist learns the secrets of mutagens, and as he progresses his ability to craft alchemical items on the fly becomes both greater and faster.

Alchemist Feats

Tying these features together is the selection of alchemist class feats. As with other class feats, they allow the alchemist to either focus or diversify his features and talents. In the case of the alchemist, class feats come in a few broad categories. If the alchemist wants to make the most of his crafting, he might choose Efficient Alchemy or Enduring Alchemy at 4th level. The former allows him to craft larger batches of alchemical items during downtime, while the latter extends the amount of time he can use alchemical items that he creates with the Quick Alchemy action. When he reaches 6th level, Powerful Alchemy allows him to increase the DCs of his alchemical effects, while the 18th-level Improbable Elixirs feat enables him to craft elixirs with the effects of magical potions.

Making stuff is great, but destruction is much more fun. Most alchemical bombs are splash weapons, which means that when the alchemist hits an enemy, those nearby take a bit of damage. At 4th level, an alchemist with the Calculated Splash feat can deal splash damage equal to his Intelligence modifier instead of the normal 1 splash damage. At 6th level, the alchemist can take the Precise Bomb feat, allowing him to hit everyone but his allies with the splash damage. Taking both feats increases the hurt he puts on enemies while saving his allies the pain. Of course, there are also plenty of feats that affect the primary target of a bomb. Debilitating Bomb at 6th level and its greater counterparts at 10th and 14th levels allow the alchemist to apply different types of conditions to the primary target of his bombs.

After an alchemist gains the mutagen crafting feature, he can take feats that modify how those powerful elixirs interact with his internal chemistry. For instance, the 8th-level Feral Mutagen feat boosts the alchemist's Intimidate checks and morphs his teeth into frightful jaws and his hands into rending claws. Other such modifications are subtler. The 10th-level Stalker Mutagen feat grants the alchemist Stealth as a signature skill and allows him to move up to his Speed when he sneaks. While all mutagens grant some bonuses and drawbacks, the Perfect Mutagen feat at 18th level allows the alchemist to ignore the drawbacks when under the effect of a mutagen he crafted.

All of this is only a small sample of what the class has to offer. The alchemist is also a master of poisons (which he can craft for free each day just like other alchemical items), has easy access to a number of skills, and can act as the party's trap disabler or healer if necessary. The diversity in the class allows you to pick and choose exactly how you want to manifest your particular brand of alchemical discoveries.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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RumpinRufus wrote:

The blog implies that they can craft a number of free alchemical items each day.

Blog wrote:
The alchemist is also a master of poisons (which he can craft for free each day just like other alchemical items)

Okay, good, that solves that worry. :)

John Lynch 106 wrote:
The alchemist never excited me much with the bomb throwing. I always like the Dr Jekyll, Mr Hyde format. I'm surprised no mention was made of the alchemist's companion: a golem. From the early interviews I believe that was confirmed. If that replaces the mutagen (for builds that go the golem route) I could see the alchemist doing a pretty good impersonation of the Eberron artificer. For now I'll just wait and see.

If they can get a golem companion, that's a pretty significant thing to leave out of this preview. That could be pretty awesome.

Techraptor Interview wrote:

One of the defining elixirs is the elixir of life, which gives the alchemist the ability to heal himself and others by having folks drink up. While its raw healing ability scales slower than healing spells, it has its own advantages in that it provides resistances if drank when at full HP, and that the Alchemist can further enhance it with class feats. Most notably at high levels, the Miracle Worker class feat can let you resurrect the dead with a true elixir of life.

Of course, if it was just healing that would be boring. Elixirs typically tend to be transmutative, meaning something changes to make them work. A few other examples given were a cheetah elixir that gives you increased speed, an elixir that improves jumping, an elixir that transforms you into the mist, and several others that transform the body.

I like what I see here. It does make me wonder though why mutagen is even a class feature. Just make the various mutagens and cognatogens into elixirs you can learn to make. Even if mutagen-as-elixir didn't come until until 3rd or 4th level when the alchemist gets "2nd tier elixirs," to balance it against Bull's Strength etc, that's still way better than making it a 5th level class feature.

Techraptor Interview wrote:
Bombs fall under alchemy as well. Bombs are no longer separate special items under their own area, but now are a group of some of the alchemical items you use. Not all alchemical items are bombs, but there is a variety of them and here are a few sample bombs: Alchemist’s fire, liquid ice, acid flask, thunderstone, and tanglefoot bag. The first four all do damage (thunderstones now do sonic damage), but the last one functions as a control item, hinting at the flexibility this brings the alchemist in play as they can mix and match what they use as bombs, especially with crafting them via Quick Alchemy. That being said, starting at third level, damage for bombs increases before eventually capping out at 6x their original damage. There are also ways to up the DCs of items like the tanglefoot bag, ensuring they stay relevant.

I'm glad to see the various elemental bombs are being brought forward, which should give the alchemist much more flexibility right from the word go. I also see that the Tanglefoot Bag now counts as a bomb (!) and its DC will go up, which is also excellent to hear.

My earlier point still stands though. Make the splash better! The splash should do half damage to adjacent squares, not one. Tanglefoot should be able to hit adjacent squares, just at a reduced effect. I am totally okay with shaped splash (to keep allies out of the effect) being a feat you have to take if it means the bombs get better AoE, just like spellcasters have to take Selective Spell to do the same thing... but if the splash is terrible then shaped splash is also a terrible feat.

Also: Int mod to damage should not be a feat tax! That's the sort of thing that is nice at 1st level but terrible at 20th level, when the scaling just does not keep up at all. The alchemist should just get that. Even if it's not until 3rd level if you're trying that hard to dissuade multiclass dips, it should be an actual class feature rather than a tax.

Techraptor Interview wrote:
Unlike other classes, alchemist’s resonance pool is based on their Intelligence, not Charisma, meaning that it lines up with their primary ability quite nicely. They also get additional bonuses to their pool as they continue to advance throughout the game, helping keep them up to date.

Well this is good news. Some classes can shift things like Resonance to alternate ability scores that better fit the class in question. Also the Alchemist apparently gets bonus Resonance on top of this. This also helps alleviate worries about burning Resonance needed for magic items. :)


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I'm not a fan of alchemy in my fantasy, and it's disappointing that something so niche as alchemist is being made core when there were plenty of other classes to choose from instead.

It's the same thing (to a lesser degree, though) as goblin being made core. Things that should be relegated to splat books are core, so if you're "banning" them from your game for thematic reasons, you're losing parts of the tightly balanced system and large parts of the core book. And, since they're core, they'll be more supported in all the future splatbooks as well, rather than kept where they should be -- more niche.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
It looks like there's even more alchemical goodness today in Stephen's interview with Techraptor.

That gives us a bit more to chew on, thank you! I hope that we find out even more cool things about alchemy when we do the Playtest.

Hmm


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I kinda want something that lets me make Charisma useful to an alchemist so I can play a "snake oil salesman" type.

But adding Cha and Int to resonance will probable crowd out creative space for the Occultist, which is supposed to be the "King/Queen of Resonance" class in 2e.

You know, being able to fool people into believing things about a product that aren't true, then being able to convince them to buy that product, and possibly even being able to get away with the product not living up to the hype you built all seem like things that would be very useful to a, "snake oil salesman," type character. And who knows, maybe they'll add some cool Poison Ivy type pheromone based manipulator archetype or something.

I think that my first CHA based PF2 alchemist will be a party animal with a small substance abuse problem.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I kinda want something that lets me make Charisma useful to an alchemist so I can play a "snake oil salesman" type.

But adding Cha and Int to resonance will probable crowd out creative space for the Occultist, which is supposed to be the "King/Queen of Resonance" class in 2e.

What Int for resonance for Alchemist does for me is make me wonder how I can multiclass to get that for other classes.


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[too early]Oh, crap. When are nagaji or vishkanya getting in? I just realized that I want to make an oil salesman snake.[/too early]

Or I could just do that in normal pathfinder whenever I want. Either way.


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Really hope there ends up being an archetype which trades away things like Empowered bombs so you don't have a wasted class feature if you don't get any Bomb formula.

Silver Crusade

Someone Upthread (Sorry I'm on my Phone) wrote:
The interview's description of using Resonance makes it, mechanically, a pool of points, similar to the monk's ki pool or the gunslinger's grit. I'm ok with having one for all characters, and I'll wait to look at the whole impact on magic items. For the alchemist, anyway, it seems fine.

Interesting ... I hadn't thought that Resonance might blend into a general point-pool feature. That tracks the design decisions to keep one name for everything, but nothing previously had made me think this might happen. We'll see though...


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This feels like a distinct loss to me.
-No extracts
-No AOE potential (be real here, even with the feat tax 5-6 points of splash damage isn't solving clumps like bombs currently can)
-Mutagen at 5, which is a nerf to martials trying to dip and rather uninteresting to a lot of alchemists.

They're really banking on resonance here, which I have yet to be sold on as a good idea. Not a fan to see extracts go, I enjoyed the "spellcasting" part of the class more than the go boom stuff. I generally took archetypes that ditched bombs altogether as they were simply very...bland damage effects.
I do have hope for poisons being useful- if poisons in general are actually usable in 2e.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Was hoping for any class other then alchemist. Especially since I am not in the mood to see anything goblin related.

Not very impressed with the alchemist, in fact so far just disappointed in what I have seen so far for 2e in general.

Silver Crusade

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Blog wrote:
a formula book for free, along with four bonus alchemical item formulas (for a total of eight, including the four from Alchemical Crafter). Each time he levels up, he gains two more formulas. This is on top of ones he either discovers or invents.

What exactly is an alchemical forumla here? 8+(19*2)= 46 formulas base. Plus more discovered or invented? Will alchemy be a full blown not-magic system? I don't know what to think about that possibility

Sovereign Court

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Fuzzypaws wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
The alchemist never excited me much with the bomb throwing. I always like the Dr Jekyll, Mr Hyde format. I'm surprised no mention was made of the alchemist's companion: a golem. From the early interviews I believe that was confirmed. If that replaces the mutagen (for builds that go the golem route) I could see the alchemist doing a pretty good impersonation of the Eberron artificer. For now I'll just wait and see.

If they can get a golem companion, that's a pretty significant thing to leave out of this preview. That could be pretty awesome.

There is the Alchemical Familiar class feat Stephen told me about in the interview - I don't have any other details on it, but the fact it is an option would lead me to believe that for the base alchemist it's not getting a golem - until possibly high levels feated into.

Or via an archtype.

Fuzzypaws wrote:
Techraptor Interview wrote:

One of the defining elixirs is the elixir of life, which gives the alchemist the ability to heal himself and others by having folks drink up. While its raw healing ability scales slower than healing spells, it has its own advantages in that it provides resistances if drank when at full HP, and that the Alchemist can further enhance it with class feats. Most notably at high levels, the Miracle Worker class feat can let you resurrect the dead with a true elixir of life.

Of course, if it was just healing that would be boring. Elixirs typically tend to be transmutative, meaning something changes to make them work. A few other examples given were a cheetah elixir that gives you increased speed, an elixir that improves jumping, an elixir that transforms you into the mist, and several others that transform the body.

I like what I see here. It does make me wonder though why mutagen is even a class feature. Just make the various mutagens and cognatogens into elixirs you can learn to make. Even if mutagen-as-elixir didn't come until until 3rd or 4th level when the alchemist gets "2nd tier elixirs," to...

I'm not quite sure where they are going - but I think they want to keep it separate there and the mutagen can function under different rules. Also by being a class feature and not a base alchemical item, it means that it is unique to the alchemist (barring archtypes and the like) and not just open to anyone who takes the Craft Alchemy skill feat. By opening it to cognigions and the like base it also reduces the odds it becomes a dead class feature.

Fuzzypaws wrote:

I'm glad to see the various elemental bombs are being brought forward, which should give the alchemist much more flexibility right from the word go. I also see that the Tanglefoot Bag now counts as a bomb (!) and its DC will go up, which is also excellent to hear.

This is one of the things that interests me a lot because it means even if you don't want to be tossing damaging stuff around. It boosts bombs from being about one thing to being a much more flexible tool.

Fuzzypaws wrote:

Well this is good news. Some classes can shift things like Resonance to alternate ability scores that better fit the class in question. Also the Alchemist apparently gets bonus Resonance on top of this. This also helps alleviate worries about burning Resonance needed for magic items. :)

They do get extra resonance as they level up. Also, for using their own items they don't have to pay to drink it if anyone was concerned about that.

If you guys have any other questions based on the interview feel free to fire away here or on the TR questions and I'll try to answer as I can.

Personally, I'm excited to see what the class ends up as and like the feel of the class flavorfully using the magic in the world around them and mixing it together. I liked 1e alchemist but it was always a bit restrained and abstract flavor because of having to be built on rules that had a certain foundation. Working him in here from the start lets alchemy find it's own niche.

Sovereign Court

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Joe M. wrote:
Blog wrote:
a formula book for free, along with four bonus alchemical item formulas (for a total of eight, including the four from Alchemical Crafter). Each time he levels up, he gains two more formulas. This is on top of ones he either discovers or invents.
What exactly is an alchemical forumla here? 8+(19*2)= 46 formulas base. Plus more discovered or invented? Will alchemy be a full blown not-magic system? I don't know what to think about that possibility

Talking with Stephen - he did confirm there will be over 46 items. Note that this probably counts poisons as well. Alchemy is basically becoming its own little system there in the playtest


Mutie mutie mutagen, what shall we do with you...
I've been going back and fourth on it, but I have to say, it seems like bumping a core feature all the way back to five just because they didn't like martial level dips is a bit... awkward?
Eh, whatever, it's their game. If I play it, I can just fix it with a homebrew archetype, and that's only if they don't do it themselves.
Though, the two aren't mutually exclusive by any means. Paizo keeps one upping my alchemist homebrews with better, more efficient versions of their own.

Shadow Lodge

Lucas Yew wrote:
It sounds eerily like the Sage from Spheres of Might; granted, both are INT-y classes which make and chuck pseudo-magic items as daily ammunition...

You're thinking of the Scholar(though anyone invested in the Alchemy sphere had what were essentially exactly what PF2 a chimerical items sound like). Sage came from Champions of the Spheres.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I believe that the mutagen is being delayed is not necessarily a bad thing if the Alchemist turns out to be a competent combatant without them we will have to wait and see (but looking at the new iconic he looks more than ready to go stabby stab).


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The problem with bumpping Mutagen back to level 5 is well, in PF 1 Alchemists only get Simple Weapons. They really needed the Mutagen + Discoveries to become melee monsters. Or Some way of gaining better than Simple weapons.

Unsure how proficincy will be for Alchemist so maybe the push back was needed.

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Praises

  • Rework of alchemy items. I'm so happy alchemy items are getting reworked. I especially hated how in Pathfinder there's a huge inconsistency in alchemy's thematics and lore. In Pathfinder, alchemical items are NOT magical items, and yet the alchemist class has magical abilities, which is a kick in the pants for players wanting to make a non-magical mad scientist.
  • Condensing extracts and bombs with alchemy items seems like an elegant way to tie in all the class features.
  • Familiar features and discoveries will still be in the game
  • Poison use will be optional and reworked rather than that annoying niche ability that no player uses unless they specialize in poisons.

    Concerns

  • Mutagen won't be available until later levels. It makes sense to space out the abilities, but one of the great strengths of the class in PF was the ability to make a variety of characters with an alchemist. By taking away the class feature vital to a melee alchemist and requiring a higher level, it feels like it would limit character concepts.

  • Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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    From the linked article, it sounds like elixirs ARE potions - they can do pretty much whatever a current 1E potion can do. If that's the case, what can potions do that are different? Also, if elixirs can give you enhanced speed, heal, or turn you to mist, why are they "alchemy" and not magic? Sounds pretty magic to me.

    Not a fan of resonance in the first place, but even more not a fan of ways to key it to different ability scores, like the alchemist basing it on Charisma. First, one of the few things that's good about resonance is that it gives Charisma a reason to exist for most characters, instead of being a dump stat, so why give ways to avoid that? Second, what happens if you multi-class alchemist and something else? How's your resonance determined then? Do you get half bonus from Int and half for Cha?

    Shadow Lodge

    Nifty! I feel like the alchemist is going to be a significant portion of my poison master PC.

    I'm aiming to make a PC who uses poisons and other chemicals to hurt, heal, buff, and debuff. Preferably without magic (although some refluffing may have to occur to make it work, which is ok with me).

    I've already been expecting the Heal skill to take up the majority of the healing aspect of the PC. Looks like the alchemist may take up the rest of it by itself, without much help from any other sources.


    It is my understanding that honest to goodness "magic potions" have been reworked and are no longer "a spell you can cast on yourself by drinking something."

    So elixirs being like 1E potions doesn't mean they are like 2E potions.


    Perhaps the mutagen bump was seen as necessary. It certainly explains (edit: perhaps "contributes to explaining" would be a more appropriate turn of phrase) why everyone's favorite drug addled elf couldn't be the iconic anymore.
    It no longer being front and center in the core class certainly leaves room for more focused niches on the feature trade market.


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    Wait, so the Alchemist bases his Resonance on Int rather than Cha (alright), but he has to use it for his free alchemical items (beyond Quick Alchemy).

    So the 2E Alchemist has the same cap (Level+Int Mod) that the 1E Alchemist had for bombs....but has to use it for:

    - Bombs
    - All other alchemical items they want to make for free
    - Attuning magical items
    - Consumables (except, I'd hope, those consumables that fall under their free alchemical items.)

    That doesn't sound fun at all....


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    TheFinish wrote:
    Wait, so the Alchemist bases his Resonance on Int rather than Cha (alright), but he has to use it for his free alchemical items (beyond Quick Alchemy).

    I don't think you need to use resonance for your "free" daily crafts. One would spend resonance in the situations where, for example, you could really use a tanglefoot bag but you don't have any left, in which case you could spend resonance and get a tanglefoot bag but it would become non-functional if you don't use it soon (so you can't spend the rest of your resonance on extra items for tomorrow before you go to bed.)


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    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    TheFinish wrote:

    Wait, so the Alchemist bases his Resonance on Int rather than Cha (alright), but he has to use it for his free alchemical items (beyond Quick Alchemy).

    So the 2E Alchemist has the same cap (Level+Int Mod) that the 1E Alchemist had for bombs....but has to use it for:

    - Bombs
    - All other alchemical items they want to make for free
    - Attuning magical items
    - Consumables (except, I'd hope, those consumables that fall under their free alchemical items.)

    That doesn't sound fun at all....

    They get a larger pool of points as they level on top of the int replacement, and "are more efficient when preparing alchemical items at the start of the day instead of using quick alchemy", whatever that exactly entails.


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    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    If they can get a golem companion, that's a pretty significant thing to leave out of this preview. That could be pretty awesome.

    Based on Mark's link it may only be a familiar. Still pretty cool though.


    JRutterbush wrote:
    MerlinCross wrote:
    Crayon wrote:

    Sounds good thus far.

    Revised action economy will require DPA be reduced, and increasing the damage dice of different Alchemical items does away with the need to have umpteen different types of Discoveries to use different damage types.

    It would have been nice to see more about non-combat items so we could see how loss of infusions affects the class, but I guess that can wait...

    To be fair, the Discoveries also gave effects on top of those different damage types. Frost Bombs get picked up a lot not just for the Cold damage but for the Staggered effect.

    Given the new action system, will we still have those bonus effects? To early to say

    Well, since the items themselves will already dictate the damage time, I'm assuming that those bonus effects are all the feat will grant. For example, instead of taking one Discovery that lets you make frost bombs that cause staggered, you'd take this feat and it makes your alchemist's frost cause staggered, your alchemist's fire catch the target on fire, your thunderstones cause knockback, and so on. Basically, instead of one discovery that unlocks an element and an effect, it'd be one feat that unlocks an effect for each element.

    Alternately, those features could be part and parcel of the base items' descriptions and scale with Level as part of some hitherto unseen Class Feature or Feat.


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    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    TheFinish wrote:
    Wait, so the Alchemist bases his Resonance on Int rather than Cha (alright), but he has to use it for his free alchemical items (beyond Quick Alchemy).
    I don't think you need to use resonance for your "free" daily crafts. One would spend resonance in the situations where, for example, you could really use a tanglefoot bag but you don't have any left, in which case you could spend resonance and get a tanglefoot bag but it would become non-functional if you don't use it soon (so you can't spend the rest of your resonance on extra items for tomorrow before you go to bed.)

    You do, according to the interview posted by Mark earlier:

    "At the start of each day, the alchemist can prepare a number of items using some of his or her resonance pool. "

    MusicAddict wrote:
    TheFinish wrote:

    Wait, so the Alchemist bases his Resonance on Int rather than Cha (alright), but he has to use it for his free alchemical items (beyond Quick Alchemy).

    So the 2E Alchemist has the same cap (Level+Int Mod) that the 1E Alchemist had for bombs....but has to use it for:

    - Bombs
    - All other alchemical items they want to make for free
    - Attuning magical items
    - Consumables (except, I'd hope, those consumables that fall under their free alchemical items.)

    That doesn't sound fun at all....

    They get a larger pool of points as they level on top of the int replacement, and "are more efficient when preparing alchemical items at the start of the day instead of using quick alchemy", whatever that exactly entails.

    Well if the latter means "you can prepare more Alchemical items per point of Resonance", that's fine, if it means "using quick alchemy costs more Resonance than preparing at the start of the day", you're in trouble.

    We'll need to see how big the bump is, but I'm not liking it.

    Paizo Employee Designer

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    Crayon wrote:
    JRutterbush wrote:
    MerlinCross wrote:
    Crayon wrote:

    Sounds good thus far.

    Revised action economy will require DPA be reduced, and increasing the damage dice of different Alchemical items does away with the need to have umpteen different types of Discoveries to use different damage types.

    It would have been nice to see more about non-combat items so we could see how loss of infusions affects the class, but I guess that can wait...

    To be fair, the Discoveries also gave effects on top of those different damage types. Frost Bombs get picked up a lot not just for the Cold damage but for the Staggered effect.

    Given the new action system, will we still have those bonus effects? To early to say

    Well, since the items themselves will already dictate the damage time, I'm assuming that those bonus effects are all the feat will grant. For example, instead of taking one Discovery that lets you make frost bombs that cause staggered, you'd take this feat and it makes your alchemist's frost cause staggered, your alchemist's fire catch the target on fire, your thunderstones cause knockback, and so on. Basically, instead of one discovery that unlocks an element and an effect, it'd be one feat that unlocks an effect for each element.
    Alternately, those features could be part and parcel of the base items' descriptions and scale with Level as part of some hitherto unseen Class Feature or Feat.

    Different bombs do have different properties above and beyond the Debilitating Bomb feat, which turned some of the alchemists in the playtests so far into quite the malboros when they landed a few bombs. Another fun thing we can now do but couldn't before that I really want to try out is to hand those juiced up debuff bombs (including flat-footed, naturally) to the rogue while I go into melee with a Strength build and beat things down.


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    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    This seems okay, but like many here have mentioned, hard to get the full picture when we don't have all the systems in place

    I admit the oracle reference to me was the most intriguing. My first thought was...maybe the oracle would need to be redesigned because clerics themselves are going to spontaneous casters?

    Shadow Lodge

    Mark Seifter wrote:
    Another fun thing we can now do but couldn't before that I really want to try out is to hand those juiced up debuff bombs (including flat-footed, naturally) to the rogue while I go into melee with a Strength build and beat things down.

    And how is a strength build without mutagen, if you don't mind my asking? Are there class features that support it, even a little bit?

    Liberty's Edge

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    Cyrad wrote:


  • Mutagen won't be available until later levels. It makes sense to space out the abilities, but one of the great strengths of the class in PF was the ability to make a variety of characters with an alchemist. By taking away the class feature vital to a melee alchemist and requiring a higher level, it feels like it would limit character concepts.
  • My suspicion is that there will be an Archetype that gives Mutagen at 1st or 2nd level, but at the cost of some other alchemist stuff.

    Also, with poisons available and hopefully better (and most importantly, free), that might be a very solid melee alchemist option.

    TheFinish wrote:

    Wait, so the Alchemist bases his Resonance on Int rather than Cha (alright), but he has to use it for his free alchemical items (beyond Quick Alchemy).

    So the 2E Alchemist has the same cap (Level+Int Mod) that the 1E Alchemist had for bombs....but has to use it for:

    - Bombs
    - All other alchemical items they want to make for free
    - Attuning magical items
    - Consumables (except, I'd hope, those consumables that fall under their free alchemical items.)

    That doesn't sound fun at all....

    Actually, we have a fair amount of evidence that bombs made or in the normal way costing money cost no Resonance at all, and it's clear those with free alchemy cost less. Only those made with Quick Alchemy seem to have normal costs. Ditto alchemical items in general, actually.

    And we also know they get 5 or 6 free alchemical items a day at 1st level so their free items a day seem to be substantial.


    Dragonborn3 wrote:
    Mark Seifter wrote:
    Another fun thing we can now do but couldn't before that I really want to try out is to hand those juiced up debuff bombs (including flat-footed, naturally) to the rogue while I go into melee with a Strength build and beat things down.
    And how is a strength build without mutagen, if you don't mind my asking? Are there class features that support it, even a little bit?

    Presumably some of the Elixers are buffs which could aid the Alchemist. The question is, why use them on yourself instead of a proper Martial? However, the Resonance exemption for using items on yourself would seem to provide a satisfactory answer: Why not do both?


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    Quote:
    addressing the fact players weren’t using it that much as a defining feature, the mutagen has been pushed back to 5th level as an ability

    I wasn't aware that people's alchemists didn't regularly have mutagen as a defining feature... I've seen a lot more mutagen based alchemist characters than I've seen bomb-based alchemist characters.

    Is it possible to actually play a biology themed alchemist at low-levels in 2e like you can in 1e, or is bombs your only option?


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    Hmmm it seems to me that the alchemist is going to be one of those "we are really going to see the system before making a judgement on classes". The rehaul of alchemy items does excite me as I always found it sad that it was pretty much ignored in the old system except as a thing yo sometime found on monsters. Also remember archtypes are going to be in this book day one so there could well be a melee focused archetype day one. We do have the public playtest, so for those of you who are feeling a bit gloomy, we will get our chance voice our objections once we get a better look at the picture.

    Paizo Employee Designer

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    Dragonborn3 wrote:
    Mark Seifter wrote:
    Another fun thing we can now do but couldn't before that I really want to try out is to hand those juiced up debuff bombs (including flat-footed, naturally) to the rogue while I go into melee with a Strength build and beat things down.
    And how is a strength build without mutagen, if you don't mind my asking? Are there class features that support it, even a little bit?

    In PF1, a 1st level alchemist without anything else is 2 accuracy behind the Weapon Focus fighter, 3 behind the raging barbarian or ranger attacking a favored enemy (4 with WF), or up to 6 (7 with WF, but more reasonably a point or two less) behind a smiting paladin with improbably good Str and Cha, and it just gets bigger of a spread by level 5 (lose another 1 from BAB, fighter weapon training, ranger FE increase, etc). You're just not behind like that, and so in the build I want to try, I grab a bunch of cool melee abilities and shake things up. Honestly, I might not even need a Bestial mutagen for it even when I gain access because my Strength and other bonuses should be in great shape. I might want to try a Juggernaut mutagen instead, or even go for Bullheaded to protect my Will.


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    Deadmanwalking wrote:
    Cyrad wrote:


  • Mutagen won't be available until later levels. It makes sense to space out the abilities, but one of the great strengths of the class in PF was the ability to make a variety of characters with an alchemist. By taking away the class feature vital to a melee alchemist and requiring a higher level, it feels like it would limit character concepts.
  • My suspicion is that there will be an Archetype that gives Mutagen at 1st or 2nd level, but at the cost of some other alchemist stuff.

    Also, with poisons available and hopefully better (and most importantly, free), that might be a very solid melee alchemist option.

    TheFinish wrote:

    Wait, so the Alchemist bases his Resonance on Int rather than Cha (alright), but he has to use it for his free alchemical items (beyond Quick Alchemy).

    So the 2E Alchemist has the same cap (Level+Int Mod) that the 1E Alchemist had for bombs....but has to use it for:

    - Bombs
    - All other alchemical items they want to make for free
    - Attuning magical items
    - Consumables (except, I'd hope, those consumables that fall under their free alchemical items.)

    That doesn't sound fun at all....

    Actually, we have a fair amount of evidence that bombs made with his free alchemy or in the normal way costing money cost no Resonance at all. Only those made with Quick Alchemy. Ditto alchemical items in general, actually.

    And we also know they get 5 or 6 free alchemical items a day at 1st level so their free items a day seem to be substantial.

    Oh? I mean from the Techraptor interview it doesn't seem that way at all:

    "At the start of each day, the alchemist can prepare a number of items using some of his or her resonance pool. The exact amount isn’t known yet, but doing this is going to be more efficient than creating items on the fly via Quick Alchemy, which will also eat out of the resonance pool."

    Obviously alchemical stuff you craft shouldn't eat resonance (that'd be incredibly dumb) but then you're spending your precious gold just to use your class features, which isn't nice.

    Still, I'm curious about your claims. Was it in a podcast? I've got no time to listen to them so I'm not up to date.


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    Mark Seifter wrote:
    I might want to try a Juggernaut mutagen instead, or even go for Bullheaded to protect my Will.

    Captain, my sensors have detected what appear to be words. I think that they might mean something.

    Liberty's Edge

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    TheFinish wrote:
    Oh? I mean from the Techraptor interview it doesn't seem that way at all:

    I actually hadn't seen that and appear to have been slightly mistaken. However, the 5 to 6 items a day available is from the various demo games and pretty well established (indeed, I may be understating things), and given that the character in question seemed to still have Resonance left, means a fairly heavy discount is almost certainly in play.


    I may have had too much to drink. That's funny, considering the setting of this post.
    Just try to hold down the fort, because I need to sleep.

    Goodnight.


    Mark Seifter wrote:
    Dragonborn3 wrote:
    And how is a strength build without mutagen, if you don't mind my asking? Are there class features that support it, even a little bit?
    In PF1, a 1st level alchemist without anything else is 2 accuracy behind the Weapon Focus fighter, 3 behind the raging barbarian or ranger attacking a favored enemy (4 with WF), or up to 6 (7 with WF, but more reasonably a point or two less) behind a smiting paladin with improbably good Str and Cha, and it just gets bigger of a spread by level 5 (lose another 1 from BAB, fighter weapon training, ranger FE increase, etc). You're just not behind like that, and so in the build I want to try, I grab a bunch of cool melee abilities and shake things up. Honestly, I might not even need a Bestial mutagen for it even when I gain access because my Strength and other bonuses should be in great shape. I might want to try a Juggernaut mutagen instead, or even go for Bullheaded to protect my Will.

    Interpreting Bestial as either a Mister Hyde or Wolfman mutagen, Juggernaut as an Enlarging mutagen, Bullheaded as a cognatogen... :3


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    Deadmanwalking wrote:
    TheFinish wrote:
    Oh? I mean from the Techraptor interview it doesn't seem that way at all:
    I actually hadn't seen that and appear to have been slightly mistaken. However, the 5 to 6 items a day available is from the various demo games and pretty well established (indeed, I may be understating things), and given that the character in question seemed to still have Resonance left, means a fairly heavy discount is almost certainly in play.

    What I would actually love to see is that you at least get free items at the start of the day equal to your Resonance. So if your Resonance is 6, you prepare 6 items for free when you wake up, and if your Resonance is 20, you prepare 20 items for free.

    Then anything past that, you maybe pay 1 resonance per 2 items if you are preparing at the start of the day, vs 1 resonance per item if you make it on the fly when you need something you didn't prepare. With feats to improve the efficiency of this exchange.


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    So I'm looking at the changes in resonance for alchemists and I'm wondering if this is step one in the long road of power creep. We've been told that the point of resonance is to keep people from stockpiling magic items and spamming them. Now, because resonance is being used to fuel class abilities, what's to prevent an alchemist from grabbing extra magic items and using that instead?

    Or are all traditional "Caster classes" going to get extra resonance? If so, why? Won't that gimp martials, comparatively - people who traditionally need all the magic they can get?

    Genuinely confused about this.

    Dark Archive

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    So, not to thrilled to see an alchemist preview. Feels like we have had so much info on the alchemist already that it did not need a preview. Also it kinda feels like the alchemist was made to feel the rogues role and given some the rogues abilities (Trapfinding, stealth, and debilitating).

    As I am not a fan of what I have heard of the resonance system already, tying a class ability even a little to it annoys me. Resonance already seems to be a very tight resource with having to spend a point to wear or use magic items. Now you need to use more points to quick make alchemical items?! And potions are also tied to resonance and the alchemist can't make them tell 18th level that does not make sense.


    Zi Mishkal wrote:

    So I'm looking at the changes in resonance for alchemists and I'm wondering if this is step one in the long road of power creep. We've been told that the point of resonance is to keep people from stockpiling magic items and spamming them. Now, because resonance is being used to fuel class abilities, what's to prevent an alchemist from grabbing extra magic items and using that instead?

    Or are all traditional "Caster classes" going to get extra resonance? If so, why? Won't that gimp martials, comparatively - people who traditionally need all the magic they can get?

    Genuinely confused about this.

    They could very easily have such classes get an ability that says "You get X amount of extra Resonance per day. This extra Resonance can only be spent to use class features and feats, not magic items." Simple, done.


    Everyone look at this

    https://techraptor.net/content/pathfinder-2-playtest-preview-alchemist-all- about-alchemy

    It adds a lot more information about the new alchemist.


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    Might I suggest calling it potent alchemy, instead of Powerful Alchemy?

    Probably not.


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    I really want an Alchemist Feat called "Potent Potables"... Jeopardy doesn't have that trademarked, do they?


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    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Mark Seifter wrote:
    It looks like there's even more alchemical goodness today in Stephen's interview with Techraptor.

    First of all, thank you, Mark!

    Even more cool stuff from this article. One quote from the article I call out, though:

    In an attempt to avoid bottom-loading classes, and also addressing the fact players weren’t using it that much as a defining feature, the mutagen has been pushed back to 5th level as an ability…

    In my case, every single alchemist I’ve ever played used mutagens as a cornerstone ability, because the whole “Jekyll and Hyde” thing was my main schtick. I sympathize completely with finding a way to do away with people just level dipping for an ability bonus, but unless there are more transformative effects at low level to take its place, I heavily dislike waiting until 5th (or even 8th!) level just to have the “Dr. Jekyll” archetype.

    Then again, maybe there’s plans for an archetype to swap this around...

    Sovereign Court

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    citricking wrote:

    Everyone look at this

    https://techraptor.net/content/pathfinder-2-playtest-preview-alchemist-all- about-alchemy

    It adds a lot more information about the new alchemist.

    In link form even!

    The techraptor interview definitely makes me feel better. I'm eager to see the alchemical buffs/debuffs that can make a melee alchemist effective at low levels.

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