Alchemist Class Preview

Because in 1E, Alchemist Fire was 1d6, Splash 1, and then the next round, if the target didn't take a Full Round action and passed Reflex DC 15, an extra 1d6.

Meanwhile, a 1st level bomb from an Int 18 Alchemist was 1d6+4, Splash 5, no reflex.

So Alchemist Fire was maybe an average of 7 damage over two rounds while a bomb was average 7 in one.

Well, in PF1 you have this under the Alchemist's Throw Anything class feature entry: "An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any." So yes, that applies to alchemist's fire too, and makes it more powerful than a bomb at level 1 since it continues to burn for 1 round (the rule is unclear if the Int bonus also applies in the follow-up round, but I understand most people rule it doesn't).

The limitation for alchemist's fire is the cost, that can be steep for a level 1 character. Now, acid is a splash weapon too, so...

I like the alchemist, so I'm looking forward to seeing its update in PF2. However, this blog post didn't have much to be excited about. Glad to see its features still there in PF2, but without details, I can't get really hyped. Also very few details about what alchemical items that can be crafted, so can't even get excited about the classes ability to create lots of them. Same goes for poisons and potions. I don't know how these work in PF2, so what am I supposed to get hype about?

Alchemaic wrote:

Curious. So, this makes it sound like Alchemists are losing spellcasting altogether to instead get stuff that's more akin to souped-up alchemical items? It's certainly an interesting angle, though it's kind of odd that it locks the ability for the class to become either a melee or casting focus behind 5 levels. Also, I have to hope that alchemicals in 2e are better than the ones we have now, where 90% of them are too weak or situational to use past level 3.

Well, the blog states the damage will scale as an Alchemist advances (beginning at 3rd level), so in that regard they'll be fine.

As for save DCs, the blog mentions a 6th level Feat that upgrades them, though I'm not sure how much. Hopefully it scales with Alchemist level.

I'm not really worried about something like an Acid Flask dealing more damage, I'm more wondering about something like a Tanglefoot Bag which only has a DC 15 Reflex save, and simply fails against creatures Huge or larger. Not the best example since it still has the entangle effect on a passed save, but that's the sort of thing.

TheFinish wrote:

So they got rid of all the Alchemist's Caster niftiness, made bombs just normal alchemical items (and weaker), made the PF1E normal features (Bombs gets Int mod to damage) into a Feat, moved precise bombs to 6th level (not that it matters much, if Splash is now a measly 1 damage) and mutagen is no longer level 1.

Oh, but you can make stuff that works like potions....at 18th level. And spend Resonance to get Alchemical Items on the fly.

Yay?

Also the original alchemist's bombs scaled so that a 19th level alchemist had bombs ten times as powerful as a 1st level alchemist, so I don't really see how six times is an improvement there.

Overall not very happy.

They can throw three bombs a round now right from level one.

You haven’t seen how normal alchemical items work yet.
6 x 1d6 = Avg. 21
21 x 3 = 64 avg damage

But we’re forgetting something important! >10< critical rule!

If bombs still target touch AND multiply on a critical hit then Alchemists are going to crit like crazy, and very rarely fumble.

Don’t make assumptions based off math and action economy of the previous game :-)

i the playtest, at 1st level you could throw two. fast bomber feat to get two bombs and an action apiece to throw them.

I am afraid about the fact that the classes seems don’t take a long time before doing things you get to do at 1 or 2 in PF1. A lots of them seems underwhelming. I know this is a good way to avoid dip but still. This is very bland.

In 5e you got the feeling of doing three different things in a round with a caster at level 1. Same with a lots of classes in PF1.

Damn level 5 for mutagen...

Level 5 is a bit far down the road to start mutagens, I think.
Is it possible to shift it to level 3 at least?

It sounds like there will be more powerful alchemical items so that you can scale up even if you don't take levels in alchemist. The one thing that worries me is that the alchemist is falling into the gunslinger trap:

We get bombs that are a weapon that (in theory) anyone can use. However, the alchemist is the only one who gets the bombs to scale into the late game. So if bombs are balanced for the alchemist, then it is pointless to use them for anyone else.

It also makes bombs a newbie trap in that a new player might make a "bomb using paladin" and then find that all his investment becomes useless by level 9 when the alchemist is doing 4 times his damage.

it almost certainly will not work like that. the bombs will have a damage rating that depends on the level of alchemist that made them and a cost that is similarly commensurate. i think sf is telling in that regard.

Weird, I don't see your basic alchemical items comparing to PF1 bombs, or even what the other previewed classes seem to get at levels 1-3. Calculated splash should be, IMO, an automatic class feature for all alchemists.

Oh, but you can make stuff that works like potions....at 18th level.

Considering it actually mentions elixirs, I'm fairly confident it isn't going to be a way to simply make potions.

I think just the fact that it lets Paizo re-evaluate and rebuild alchemical items right from the start in the CRB equipment tables is a good justification for Alchemist being promoted to Core. I agree with this. :)

My main concern is the money issue. There was no mention in the description of bombs, mutagens, alchemical items, etc being free. Is the alchemist going to be a class that never has money for anything because they have to spend it all to do anything? If the only way they get anything for free is to spend Resonance, which they need to wear magic items, that is going to REALLY suck.

Splash damage: come /on/, don't make it just 1 point to adjacent squares again. What the heck. It should be half damage to adjacent squares, not ONE damage. Then the Int feat (which should maybe just be a class feature instead of a feat tax) would add to the base damage rolled.

Otherwise, I like what I see. I hope there is a huge and powerful variety of alchemical items!

in the playtest, the alchemist got to make 6 bombs for free each morning.

So it does less than a 1e Alchemist?

At least that is the impression given off by the preview. I would have to see more new stuff than I am told core abilities that got delayed/became optional to actually get excited about this class.

You didn't even confirm if it has spell casting or what kind (1/2, full, act). At least by knowing that I could get a round idea at how many tools it has.

I'd imagine they get X ammount free each day, and you can't sell them because of "reasons". Because yeah, if you have to pay to make them, it's going to be horrible.

I get enough of that in the Iron Kingdoms RPG, I don't need it in Pathfinder too!

i'll bet you can sell them or give them away freely. allies probably have other attacks they'd rather use, though.

You didn't even confirm if it has spell casting or what kind (1/2, full, act). At least by knowing that I could get a round idea at how many tools it has.

I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that P2e alchemists aren't spellcasters, although I don't know exactly where. It was pretty early on, about the time they announced that alchemist would be core in P2e.

OK, at least they need to do a PrC for Bomb Merchant / Gun Dealer...
"Provoke Reckless Usage" would be mini-Confusion effect to get "customers" to injure themelves or allies by accident.

Please, Please, PLEASE add a feat for Alchemists that allow them to apply their extracts to other players without the other player having to drink them.

I really like the Alchemist's flavor, but it was a huge frustration for me with the the class in PF1.

I'm personally fond of the 'hit your allies w/ a extract, dealing damage from broken glass, but providing the effects of the extract' approach that I've seen 3PP rules for. Something akin to a Spear-syringe with less punitive action economy is another (though less fun imo)option, or even converting extracts to being inhaled vice being drank as a third suggestion

But please, I would really like to be able to use my extracts on allies on my turn (using them on enemies would be cool too..)

Please, Please, PLEASE add a feat for Alchemists that allow them to apply their extracts to other players without the other player having to drink them.

I really like the Alchemist's flavor, but it was a huge frustration for me with the the class in PF1.

I'm personally fond of the 'hit your allies w/ a extract, dealing damage from broken glass, but providing the effects of the extract' approach that I've seen 3PP rules for. Something akin to a Spear-syringe with less punitive action economy is another (though less fun imo)option, or even converting extracts to being inhaled vice being drank as a third suggestion

But please, I would really like to be able to use my extracts on allies on my turn (using them on enemies would be cool too..)

Poisoner Gloves, free injects for all. I mean what else do you use Hand Slots for?

....Oh dears, how would that item work with Resonance?!?

It looks like there's even more alchemical goodness today in Stephen's interview with Techraptor.

At 1st level, he gains Alchemical Crafter and a formula book for free, along with four bonus alchemical item formulas (for a total of eight, including the four from Alchemical Crafter). Each time he levels up, he gains two more formulas. This is on top of ones he either discovers or invents.

So... 46 alchemical recipes at lvl 20, MINIMUM.

This doesn't do a lot for me, but admittedly I'm one of the few alchemist-skeptics out there. I really like the *idea* of an alchemist class, but the whole "mad bomber/Jekyll & Hyde" approach of the Pathfinder alchemist never really did it for me. Combined with how the ability to target Touch AC means that the alchemist almost never misses (in the games I've run or played using one), I've come to resent the class a bit. Still, I do like how the 2E alchemist will be actually interested in alchemy instead of a funky way to cast spells . . .

I for one am pleased that alchemy isn't just "spellcasting by another name" anymore.

A little nervous about the level abilities are earned. Is an alchemist going to feel distinctive at low levels? This is especially concerning when thinking of organized play where we are spending a lot of time without Precise Bombs or Mutagens.

I'm disappointed in this view. My favorite part of the alchemist was making a melee guy that had a great buffing list to handle all the situations you come across (flight, swimming, invisibility, seeing invis, barkskin, heroism, false-life) most having long duration with a nice backup ranged attack of bombs that I'd be willing to trade out sometimes.
Now it seems all about bombs, the least interesting part of the class for me which, if true, really lowers the excitement for them to be a core class.

It looks like there's even more alchemical goodness today in Stephen's interview with Techraptor.

Unlike other classes, alchemist’s resonance pool is based on their Intelligence, not Charisma, meaning that it lines up with their primary ability quite nicely. They also get additional bonuses to their pool as they continue to advance throughout the game, helping keep them up to date.

This line from that link helps some of the problems people are having with using resonance to make your items.

The alchemist never excited me much with the bomb throwing. I always like the Dr Jekyll, Mr Hyde format. I'm surprised no mention was made of the alchemist's companion: a golem. From the early interviews I believe that was confirmed. If that replaces the mutagen (for builds that go the golem route) I could see the alchemist doing a pretty good impersonation of the Eberron artificer. For now I'll just wait and see.

I for one am pleased that alchemy isn't just "spellcasting by another name" anymore.

Yep! That was the main reason I never really played one. This, now, interest me greatly! It would have been perfect for my "Gnome inventor" I made a while back that I had nothing really better to use than Rogue. That version of the Alchemist would fit perfectly (spent most of the game crafting some glue...)

syll wrote:

Please, Please, PLEASE add a feat for Alchemists that allow them to apply their extracts to other players without the other player having to drink them.

I really like the Alchemist's flavor, but it was a huge frustration for me with the the class in PF1.

I'm personally fond of the 'hit your allies w/ a extract, dealing damage from broken glass, but providing the effects of the extract' approach that I've seen 3PP rules for. Something akin to a Spear-syringe with less punitive action economy is another (though less fun imo)option, or even converting extracts to being inhaled vice being drank as a third suggestion

But please, I would really like to be able to use my extracts on allies on my turn (using them on enemies would be cool too..)

Poisoner Gloves, free injects for all. I mean what else do you use Hand Slots for?

....Oh dears, how would that item work with Resonance?!?

The nasty problem with poisoner's gloves is this line right here "Each glove can be used once per day. Filling a glove is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity."

It looks like there's even more alchemical goodness today in Stephen's interview with Techraptor.

Oh, hey look. Information!

One thing we do have: confirmation of class features beyond class feats. That's good news.

The alchemist never excited me much with the bomb throwing. I always like the Dr Jekyll, Mr Hyde format. I'm surprised no mention was made of the alchemist's companion: a golem. From the early interviews I believe that was confirmed. If that replaces the mutagen (for builds that go the golem route) I could see the alchemist doing a pretty good impersonation of the Eberron artificer. For now I'll just wait and see.

This post (and other like it) underpin one problem that this playtest Alchemist isn't really doing much about, so far as we know- the class is all over the place.

Me? I'm a bomb-chucking guy. My PF1 Alchemists barely even use extracts- they're mostly bombing platforms with some skills. I've never liked Mutagen in any of its forms, and so on.

The problem is...

Bombs, mutagen, extracts/elixirs/whateverwe'recallingthemnow?

All stuck to the same class in a somewhat uneven hodgepodge.

While it would be a space-devouring nightmare, I'd like to see Alchemists become far more a la carte... You dig mutagen? Then you should start with that, instead of bombs. Makes sense- your studies weren't focused on nasty throwables, you were focused on internal biochemistry. You hate potions and mutagens and like blowing things up? Sure, you majored in that branch of study...

I like idea of high level Tinker-Bomb Path Alchemists getting option of Mecha-Suit (or wearable gadget modifications to Weapon/Armor) that gets them "viable" melee option and more survivability/mobility. (Golem Companion similar) Likewise Mutagen Path Alchemists could eventually get Breath Weapon / Ranged/ Aura effects which offer parallel option to Bomb effects, if still distinct. Mutagen Path can go Brute or can go more Vivisectionist. Cognatogen/Ectoplasmist/crazy occult crypto-science offers other direction(s) not focused on explosives/tinkering/ranged or biology/melee.

Really hope they don't do Rapid Bomb thing, certainly not from Level 1 like they announced. Like that just wasn't anywhere close to my imagination of Alchemy in Golarion that dudes were running around rapid firing grenades, yet that particularity of P1E Bomb schtick seems the CORE of the P2E implementation. That just doesn't feel satisfying even for Explosive/Tinker Alchemy focused concept. Seems like problem with front-loading in P1E was the bonus was so big... So don't make it so big. Make the effect more limited, but noticeable/viable. Single 'pool' of Alchemy (not separate for Bombs/Elixirs etc) does seem right direction.

I think building on alchemical items is better than the "magic but not really, except it is sort of" approach of the PF1 alchemist. We did a similar thing in Spheres of Might.

One thing we do have: confirmation of class features beyond class feats. That's good news.

We knew that from the "leveling up" blog, since "2nd level spells" was listed as a class feature for 3rd level Clerics which is not a feat.

Some more class feats!

"Delay Bombs (put a fuse on that bomb)
Precise Bombs (don’t do splash damage to allies)
Debilitating Bombs (bombs apply debuffs to enemies)
Combine Elixirs (toss those potions together!)
Efficient Alchemy (craft more alchemy during downtime)
Poison Touch (deliver Poisons via a touch)
Alchemical Familiar (build your own mini-alchemical golem familiar)
Feral Mutagen (grow claws and teeth when drinking this mutagen)"

I'm ok with a bomb-enchanter-elixir-golem alchemist.

I'm ok with a mutagen-elixir alchemist.

I guess thematically bombs+mutagen just never fit with me as they seem mutually exclusive options.

That 18th level feat hints at some more interesting potential when you look at the link Mark posted above. That piece explicitly spells out that elixirs equal alchemy created "potions" (for lack of a better term). Re-reading the 18th level feat, that makes me think actually creating elixirs is something gained much earlier, and the 18th level feat allows for arcane or divine spells to be converted into elixirs (rather than simply gaining elixir creation at 18th level).

John Lynch 106 wrote:

One thing we do have: confirmation of class features beyond class feats. That's good news.

We knew that from the "leveling up" class feats, since "2nd level spells" was listed as a class feature for 3rd level Clerics which is not a feat.

I think it was safe to assume Spellcasting levels were t being turned into a feat. But I hadn't heard anything about non-spellcasters getting class features. But if this is old news to everyone else that's call. It was new for me.

From the interview Mark linked.

So how does the alchemist manage all of his creations? He makes use of the resonance system being introduced for Pathfinder Playtest, which can be read about more here on Enworld who have gathered information on it. Unlike other classes, alchemist’s resonance pool is based on their Intelligence, not Charisma, meaning that it lines up with their primary ability quite nicely. They also get additional bonuses to their pool as they continue to advance throughout the game, helping keep them up to date.

So, if elixirs aren't magic, do they use resonance?
If so, why?
If not, why?

Wait, I should have asked how. How is a much more interesting question.
How?

I think we need to know if there is any class feature at level ONE that helps out melee alchemists. Like smearing alchemist fire on your sword or something.

Right now losing Mutagen until four levels level seems to make for far weaker Alchemists. This is not good.

I'm ok with a bomb-enchanter-elixir-golem alchemist.

I'm ok with a mutagen-elixir alchemist.

I guess thematically bombs+mutagen just never fit with me as they seem mutually exclusive options.

The fact that mutagen and cognatogen have apparently been wrapped into one makes it a bit more consistent, though I do feel like it might do the alchemist good to be divided into two packages that you pick at level one (say, a poisoner package and a bomber package) so you can have a more thematically consistent character.

It seems like "this alchemist wants to be up in your face from level 1 onwards" is a thing you make into an archetype, not a thing every alchemist can do equally well.

Like diminished/delayed alchemy in exchange for mutagen at level 1 seems doable.

RIP in pieces, mutie scum. You will be hit.

From the interview Mark linked.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

So how does the alchemist manage all of his creations? He makes use of the resonance system being introduced for Pathfinder Playtest, which can be read about more here on Enworld who have gathered information on it. Unlike other classes, alchemist’s resonance pool is based on their Intelligence, not Charisma, meaning that it lines up with their primary ability quite nicely. They also get additional bonuses to their pool as they continue to advance throughout the game, helping keep them up to date.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.

Time to dump CHA!

Seriously, I still dislike/unsure the idea of Resonance but this makes it far more palatable to my favorite class.

It sounds eerily like the Sage from Spheres of Might; granted, both are INT-y classes which make and chuck pseudo-magic items as daily ammunition...

So, with resonance being used to patch over an alchemist's lack of time or money, we're going to have to balance our gear against our class features and our downtime/money.

The bard and sorcerer laughed at the alchemist upon hearing this.
Well, we'll show them! We'll show them all!

i noticed this int he article

so beyond using resonance to make quick items it appears that the alchemist can craft a set amount of items for free every day.

It looks like there's even more alchemical goodness today in Stephen's interview with Techraptor.

Very interesting. Lots more intel than the blog post, if you don't mind me saying so :-)

The distinction between magic and alchemy is now clear. That's great. There's also a cleanup of these things you can drink: In PF1 the alchemist could brew potions, use extracts, drink a mutagen, and all three used rather inconsistent rules (like only some of these could benefit from Accelerated Drinker, for example). This is now gone. I won't miss the extracts, especially since I guess all those newfangled elixirs will offer similarly cool effects. Brewing potions is clarified.

This leaves the mutagen, which comes online only later. I'm not sure about that one. It's unclear to me why there needs to be a mutagen, since that role could be performed with the appropriate elixir? Even though I am not attracted by the Jekyll and Hyde style of alchemist as much as by the Mad Bomber, I still wish both can be playable options.

The interview's description of using Resonance makes it, mechanically, a pool of points, similar to the monk's ki pool or the gunslinger's grit. I'm ok with having one for all characters, and I'll wait to look at the whole impact on magic items. For the alchemist, anyway, it seems fine.

The alchemist sounds pretty cool but if they are gonna let him make potions that enable him full movement while sneaking with a bonus I better not hear rogues and other martials complain about spells making skill checks obsolete and undervalued.

1of1 wrote:

So, with resonance being used to patch over an alchemist's lack of time or money, we're going to have to balance our gear against our class features and our downtime/money.

The bard and sorcerer laughed at the alchemist upon hearing this.
Well, we'll show them! We'll show them all!

i noticed this int he article

The alchemist is also a master of poisons (which he can craft for free each day just like other alchemical items),

so beyond using resonance to make quick items it appears that the alchemist can craft a set amount of items for free every day.

Yes, I saw that. It takes a few weights off of the platform labled, "Class Features," on the triple sided scale.

Either way, it leaves more room to blow up those charimatic fools with my GLORIOUS INT BASED RESONANCE!

(Still not really feeling the whole universal loot pool, but that's a seperate issue that is now sharing a circulatory system with my favorite class.)

I kinda want something that lets me make Charisma useful to an alchemist so I can play a "snake oil salesman" type.

But adding Cha and Int to resonance will probable crowd out creative space for the Occultist, which is supposed to be the "King/Queen of Resonance" class in 2e.

I am really disliking the Alchemist preview. I think it boils down to being forced into a particular playstyle with the class. Maybe I want to play a Jekle/Hyde alchemist, not a grenadier alchemist.

What I would've liked to see instead is the option to choose what "type" or "package" of alchemist you are at 1st level. Do you use Bombs, Extracts, Mutagens, or Poisons? Then at 5th level you have the opportunity to choose a 2nd package. Then at 10th level, you can choose a 3rd package. Finally at 15th level, you can choose a 4th package. (Any time you could choose a package, you may instead choose to focus further into a previous package).

But gating iconic packages at 5th level I feel is unreasonable. I am especially disappointed with the necessity of waiting for 6th level before one can gain Precise Bomb. I just think it is an unnecessary level tax.