Alchemist Class Preview

Monday, April 9, 2018

Just read any messageboards or comment threads, and you'll realize this truth about people: some of them love to throw bombs and blow things up. It's a visceral thrill. Lobbing bombs is dramatic and fun, and every so often all of us love to watch something burn. If you enjoy this activity more than most, do we have a class for you!

So far we've previewed the fighter and the rogue. You might have thought we'd showcase one of the original spellcasting classes next, but that involves talking a bit more about spellcasting, so instead, we decided to unleash the secrets of the alchemist in our newest preview of the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook.

In the early days of Pathfinder First Edition, the alchemist saw release in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide. Since then, the alchemist has proven to be very popular. Unsurprisingly, when we surveyed the player base about what classes see the most play, the alchemist rose right to the top (along with the oracle, but more on that in a later preview). That alone would have promoted the class into the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, but tackling the alchemist early on during the design process was beneficial for another reason: it allowed us to take a hard look at alchemical item design with the alchemist in mind rather than as a later add-on.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Alchemist Features

While anyone trained in Crafting can take the Alchemical Crafter skill feat and craft their own alchemical items, the alchemist is much better at this crafting discipline. At 1st level, he gains Alchemical Crafter and a formula book for free, along with four bonus alchemical item formulas (for a total of eight, including the four from Alchemical Crafter). Each time he levels up, he gains two more formulas. This is on top of ones he either discovers or invents. Not only does he gain more access to alchemical tricks, by way of advanced alchemy and the quick alchemy action, but he can also spend resonance to create alchemical objects on the fly, though such hasty concoctions are potent for only a short period.

Crafting is all well and good, but what about bombing potential? The alchemist's bombs are now the basic alchemical items you are familiar with: things like alchemist fire, thunderstones, acid flasks and so on. He crafts these items and lobs them. At 3rd level, he gains the empower bomb feature, which allows him to multiply the damage of the bombs he creates. This multiplier increases with level until it reaches six times the alchemical bomb's base damage at 19th level.

But that's only the start—at 5th level the alchemist learns the secrets of mutagens, and as he progresses his ability to craft alchemical items on the fly becomes both greater and faster.

Alchemist Feats

Tying these features together is the selection of alchemist class feats. As with other class feats, they allow the alchemist to either focus or diversify his features and talents. In the case of the alchemist, class feats come in a few broad categories. If the alchemist wants to make the most of his crafting, he might choose Efficient Alchemy or Enduring Alchemy at 4th level. The former allows him to craft larger batches of alchemical items during downtime, while the latter extends the amount of time he can use alchemical items that he creates with the Quick Alchemy action. When he reaches 6th level, Powerful Alchemy allows him to increase the DCs of his alchemical effects, while the 18th-level Improbable Elixirs feat enables him to craft elixirs with the effects of magical potions.

Making stuff is great, but destruction is much more fun. Most alchemical bombs are splash weapons, which means that when the alchemist hits an enemy, those nearby take a bit of damage. At 4th level, an alchemist with the Calculated Splash feat can deal splash damage equal to his Intelligence modifier instead of the normal 1 splash damage. At 6th level, the alchemist can take the Precise Bomb feat, allowing him to hit everyone but his allies with the splash damage. Taking both feats increases the hurt he puts on enemies while saving his allies the pain. Of course, there are also plenty of feats that affect the primary target of a bomb. Debilitating Bomb at 6th level and its greater counterparts at 10th and 14th levels allow the alchemist to apply different types of conditions to the primary target of his bombs.

After an alchemist gains the mutagen crafting feature, he can take feats that modify how those powerful elixirs interact with his internal chemistry. For instance, the 8th-level Feral Mutagen feat boosts the alchemist's Intimidate checks and morphs his teeth into frightful jaws and his hands into rending claws. Other such modifications are subtler. The 10th-level Stalker Mutagen feat grants the alchemist Stealth as a signature skill and allows him to move up to his Speed when he sneaks. While all mutagens grant some bonuses and drawbacks, the Perfect Mutagen feat at 18th level allows the alchemist to ignore the drawbacks when under the effect of a mutagen he crafted.

All of this is only a small sample of what the class has to offer. The alchemist is also a master of poisons (which he can craft for free each day just like other alchemical items), has easy access to a number of skills, and can act as the party's trap disabler or healer if necessary. The diversity in the class allows you to pick and choose exactly how you want to manifest your particular brand of alchemical discoveries.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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I'm not impressed tbh. Combined with the elf and dwarf preview PF2 is sounding like someone really wanted to spread level 1 over 20 levels.


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RumpinRufus wrote:
I'd love to be able to play a "gentleman alchemist" who was less focused on damage and more focused on support/control effects (stuff similar to Grease, Fog Cloud, Web, etc.)

ohh, can we have pls???


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MerlinCross wrote:
John Ryan 783 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Planpanther wrote:
Ugh, I was hoping they would leave in dipping for versatility and avoid dipping for power. Seems instead they plan to punched MC in the nuts.

Level dip for 8 formulas could be pretty useful. It'll stop the Barbarian/Alchemist Rage+Mutation builds that were supposed to be game breaking.

Not that I saw one but meh.

I recently played in a living campaign, and Bloodrager X/Alchemist 1 was very common. Or Alchemist 1/Bloodrager 1/Fighter x. Long Arm + Mutagen + Rage with a greataxe was really annoying to deal with at lower levels.

Repeated fights seem to be a good way of dealing with that. The combo works but it seems to be a very Nova option.

On topic, I feel the move to level 5 while makes it easier to balance Multiclassing could leave the alchemist itself out on a limb when it comes to actually using their own class feature. That's kinda late to come online. I'd feel better if it was moved back to maybe level 3.

I think it depends on how good the poison stuff is. If a melee alchemist can reliably build around poisons instead of bombs then their build will already be "online" at level 1, and the strength buffs from mutagen will merely enhance what they're already doing.


Planpanther wrote:
Im not crazy about the splash out your friends ability. Seems a little hard to understand that narrative. Though if tossing bombs is what the class does, I suppose it needs to be able to not kill its own allies.

With the class being based around Int I'm seeing it like crazy computation of angles, trajectories & fluid dynamics.

Like the idea of calculating the bounce of a pool ball after 5 impacts - impossible in real life believable in fiction.
That's just my take, anyway.

Grand Lodge

To me it looks fun!

IF I imagine this correctly.. They won't have "spells" anymore. However, alchemical items will be spell LIKE. Oooooh: And everyone can make it with Alchemical Crafter.

But an Alchemist can brew these things up quicker, and for FREE with Resonance.

Also, it seems potions are still in, but still limited in max level. Improbable Elixirs seems to unlock high level potions.

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I really hope they aren't folding the Oracle into the Cleric.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Also, it would be nice if you could play an alchemist who wasn't a bomb-flinging, body-warping sociopath;

Did you even read the blog? You can also be an acid-flinging sociopath.

But seriously, I do agree with you - I'd love to be able to play a "gentleman alchemist" who was less focused on damage and more focused on support/control effects (stuff similar to Grease, Fog Cloud, Web, etc.)

He's still a tad sociopathic, but I came up with a Merchant Lord Alchemist that made his money by honest deals, charm, bribes, or burning the competition out. He was quite the dandy but also brutal in the chase of profit.

And currently I'm playing a kinda mad alchemist(More Doc Brown mad than insane) running through Iron gods that wants to dig up robots to be used in place of humans for tasks.

Mind you I used Archtypes for both. My merchant was Presversionist and my tinker robot alchemsit is... well Tinker Archtype.


graeme mcdougall wrote:
Planpanther wrote:
Im not crazy about the splash out your friends ability. Seems a little hard to understand that narrative. Though if tossing bombs is what the class does, I suppose it needs to be able to not kill its own allies.

With the class being based around Int I'm seeing it like crazy computation of angles, trajectories & fluid dynamics.

Like the idea of calculating the bounce of a pool ball after 5 impacts - impossible in real life believable in fiction.
That's just my take, anyway.

That makes sense. I just like the idea of a caster type character having to manage their friendly fire. I can live with that as default and a feat gets rid of it.


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MerlinCross wrote:
Wild Spirit wrote:
Please give the alchemist something like an elixir of youth - reduces age by 10 years when consumed by a sentient creature. It would be a first class that could avert ageing effects not only for himself but also for other party members.

First off, I think at least in PF1, we get something like that as a level 20 cap.

Second of all..., err how often does aging effects come up in game short of special effect or spell that can be reversed a few ways already?

Not really. In PF1 only the Alchemist gets to live forever, his allies don't. This feature would really be there more for the flavour than for the game mechanics (roleplaying is always about the flavour for me).


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quote:
Debilitating Bomb at 6th level

which is sooner than the rogue gets Debilitating Strike.

I am having trouble making sense of much of this information. It is obvious there are a lot of changes to the class that they haven't talked about.

I do wish they would quit calling additive damage dice multiplying though...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mutagen is 5th level and Feral Mutagen is 8th level now? Seems very weird for something that Alchemists have traditionally gotten at 1st and 2nd level respectively. I definitely don't like the idea of having to wait several levels to get the cornerstone abilities of your chosen build, especially if we know they were available early in PF1.

The brief note about spellcasting classes sounds... ominous.


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Paladinosaur wrote:
I really hope they aren't folding the Oracle into the Cleric.

Seems if you roll the Oracle into the Cleric you should roll the Sorcerer into the Wizard.

I would still like, by hook or crook, a spontaneous casting druid analogue though.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Varun Creed wrote:

To me it looks fun!

IF I imagine this correctly.. They won't have "spells" anymore. However, alchemical items will be spell LIKE. Oooooh: And everyone can make it with Alchemical Crafter.

But an Alchemist can brew these things up quicker, and for FREE with Resonance.

Also, it seems potions are still in, but still limited in max level. Improbable Elixirs seems to unlock high level potions.

Elixirs are alchemical, potions are magical (normally). Also potions are no longer spells in a can and do indeed go up to high levels now.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My biggest concern for the new alchemist off of this preview, is it at all possible to play an alchemist that doesn't use poisons or bombs, but still fights offensive with alchemical items FROM LEVEL 1. Mutagens being pushed back to 5the level is fine, because it was and still should be a powerful offensive alchemical, but I should be able to play a melee alchemist from level 1 without jumping through hoops.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
John Ryan 783 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Planpanther wrote:
Ugh, I was hoping they would leave in dipping for versatility and avoid dipping for power. Seems instead they plan to punched MC in the nuts.

Level dip for 8 formulas could be pretty useful. It'll stop the Barbarian/Alchemist Rage+Mutation builds that were supposed to be game breaking.

Not that I saw one but meh.

I recently played in a living campaign, and Bloodrager X/Alchemist 1 was very common. Or Alchemist 1/Bloodrager 1/Fighter x. Long Arm + Mutagen + Rage with a greataxe was really annoying to deal with at lower levels.

Repeated fights seem to be a good way of dealing with that. The combo works but it seems to be a very Nova option.

On topic, I feel the move to level 5 while makes it easier to balance Multiclassing could leave the alchemist itself out on a limb when it comes to actually using their own class feature. That's kinda late to come online. I'd feel better if it was moved back to maybe level 3.

I think it depends on how good the poison stuff is. If a melee alchemist can reliably build around poisons instead of bombs then their build will already be "online" at level 1, and the strength buffs from mutagen will merely enhance what they're already doing.

Have you seen how many things are resistant or immune to poison? That and Fort seems to be a high save for most creatures anyway.

It's really hard to play a poison build.


This is pretty cool, but now I'm really curious about spellcasting.


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Looks like the flavor of the class is retained, but clearly, its powers are spread over more levels. This was the case in the discussions of Fighters, Rogues, Elves and Dwarves as well, so it's consistent. It feels a bit disappointing at first glance, but I think this may well be necessary in order to improve game balance, and to make higher levels accessible to a broader base - meaning, playable by non-experts without developing headaches. In PF1, spellcaster power increases like level squared (at least) and here it may look more like a linear growth.

Anyway, this is only a small glimpse of the class: Interesting, but any opinion remains tentative until the playtest document is available.

One thing I'm not sure I have understood, though: Is alchemy a form of magic? The point about Resonance seems to indicate it is, but everything else in the post could work with alchemical items remaining non-magical. By the way, I'm in favor of deciding one way or the other: In PF1, the distinction between "magical alchemy" (bombs, mutagens, extracts, scaling with level) and "mundane alchemy" (alchemical items, poisons, mostly useless after level 4-5) didn't make much sense and was confusing. So, as long as all alchemy is either magical or non-magical, but not a mix of both, I see it as an improvement in design.

EDIT - looks like Mark answered this question 2 minutes before I asked it. Thanks!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:

So they got rid of all the Alchemist's Caster niftiness, made bombs just normal alchemical items (and weaker), made the PF1E normal features (Bombs gets Int mod to damage) into a Feat, moved precise bombs to 6th level (not that it matters much, if Splash is now a measly 1 damage) and mutagen is no longer level 1.

Oh, but you can make stuff that works like potions....at 18th level. And spend Resonance to get Alchemical Items on the fly.

Yay?

Also the original alchemist's bombs scaled so that a 19th level alchemist had bombs ten times as powerful as a 1st level alchemist, so I don't really see how six times is an improvement there.

Overall not very happy.

They can throw three bombs a round now right from level one.

You haven’t seen how normal alchemical items work yet.
6 x 1d6 = Avg. 21
21 x 3 = 64 avg damage

But we’re forgetting something important! >10< critical rule!

If bombs still target touch AND multiply on a critical hit then Alchemists are going to crit like crazy, and very rarely fumble.

Don’t make assumptions based off math and action economy of the previous game :-)


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Paladinosaur wrote:
I really hope they aren't folding the Oracle into the Cleric.

Maybe they are a sorcerer archetype that swaps spell lists?


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Mark Seifter wrote:


Elixirs are alchemical, potions are magical (normally). Also potions are no longer spells in a can and do indeed go up to high levels now.

Yeah, without knowing anything concrete about resonance beyond the very basics we have, I'm reaaaal leery of having it tied right into an alchemist's core abilities.

So, I'm going to have remain ambivalent on what's been offered here. I think lots of people really want to know more about resonance at this point. These little tidbits hanging out in the ether are more confusing than anything else at this point.

Still willing to give the PT a chance, obviously, and looking forward to it.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Preview wrote:
The alchemist is also a master of poisons (which he can craft for free each day just like other alchemical items)

Does that mean focusing on poisons might actually be an achievable alchemist character concept in PF2? Exciting.


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So the Alchemist just uses resonance for Alchemy in case they need to mix something up impossibly fast? I think that's reasonable.


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Zi Mishkal wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:


Elixirs are alchemical, potions are magical (normally). Also potions are no longer spells in a can and do indeed go up to high levels now.

Yeah, without knowing anything concrete about resonance beyond the very basics we have, I'm reaaaal leery of having it tied right into an alchemist's core abilities.

So, I'm going to have remain ambivalent on what's been offered here. I think lots of people really want to know more about resonance at this point. These little tidbits hanging out in the ether are more confusing than anything else at this point.

Still willing to give the PT a chance, obviously, and looking forward to it.

Yeah the idea that I'll need to play around 2 different resource pools(My own X per day and then Someone's Resonance Per day) for a core feature... well..


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Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zi Mishkal wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:


Elixirs are alchemical, potions are magical (normally). Also potions are no longer spells in a can and do indeed go up to high levels now.

Yeah, without knowing anything concrete about resonance beyond the very basics we have, I'm reaaaal leery of having it tied right into an alchemist's core abilities.

So, I'm going to have remain ambivalent on what's been offered here. I think lots of people really want to know more about resonance at this point. These little tidbits hanging out in the ether are more confusing than anything else at this point.

Still willing to give the PT a chance, obviously, and looking forward to it.

Eh, this seems reasonable to me.

Other people: can spend resonance to chug healing elixirs.
Alchemists: can spend resonance to create healing elixirs on the fly, which they chug without paying further resonance cost because their resonance is already invested in it.


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MerlinCross wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
John Ryan 783 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Planpanther wrote:
Ugh, I was hoping they would leave in dipping for versatility and avoid dipping for power. Seems instead they plan to punched MC in the nuts.

Level dip for 8 formulas could be pretty useful. It'll stop the Barbarian/Alchemist Rage+Mutation builds that were supposed to be game breaking.

Not that I saw one but meh.

I recently played in a living campaign, and Bloodrager X/Alchemist 1 was very common. Or Alchemist 1/Bloodrager 1/Fighter x. Long Arm + Mutagen + Rage with a greataxe was really annoying to deal with at lower levels.

Repeated fights seem to be a good way of dealing with that. The combo works but it seems to be a very Nova option.

On topic, I feel the move to level 5 while makes it easier to balance Multiclassing could leave the alchemist itself out on a limb when it comes to actually using their own class feature. That's kinda late to come online. I'd feel better if it was moved back to maybe level 3.

I think it depends on how good the poison stuff is. If a melee alchemist can reliably build around poisons instead of bombs then their build will already be "online" at level 1, and the strength buffs from mutagen will merely enhance what they're already doing.

Have you seen how many things are resistant or immune to poison? That and Fort seems to be a high save for most creatures anyway.

It's really hard to play a poison build.

There are a lot of hints and teases that poison is one of those things that's getting an overhaul. It is likely to work differently than we are used to.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So the Alchemist just uses resonance for Alchemy in case they need to mix something up impossibly fast? I think that's reasonable.

Yeah, the post made it sound like the alchemist can spend resonance to make a quick fixer upper of a normal alchemical item, instead of however long it normally takes, giving them the alchemist equivalent of the original PF arcane bonded item... multiple times a day in return for their magic item resource.


Seems that alchemist items are really going to be a thing PF2 that is great, I really like the idea of playing an Alchemist focused in crafting. It also looks like alchemist items are going to require to find a formula before crafting. I also like that Alchemist no longer have "spells".

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber

Bring back Damiel!

The Goblin interloper is #NotMyAlchemist


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Please, do not fold Oracle into the Cleric!!!

If you'll do that, I guess you should also fold the Sorcerer into the Wizard and create a sponteneous Druid as well...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:

To me it looks fun!

IF I imagine this correctly.. They won't have "spells" anymore. However, alchemical items will be spell LIKE. Oooooh: And everyone can make it with Alchemical Crafter.

But an Alchemist can brew these things up quicker, and for FREE with Resonance.

Also, it seems potions are still in, but still limited in max level. Improbable Elixirs seems to unlock high level potions.

Elixirs are alchemical, potions are magical (normally). Also potions are no longer spells in a can and do indeed go up to high levels now.

I might be confused - in the GCP playtest, didn't it cost Keith Slashmaster resonance to drink one of Mamalo's healing elixirs? So does that mean an elixir is non-magical but still requires resonance?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:

To me it looks fun!

IF I imagine this correctly.. They won't have "spells" anymore. However, alchemical items will be spell LIKE. Oooooh: And everyone can make it with Alchemical Crafter.

But an Alchemist can brew these things up quicker, and for FREE with Resonance.

Also, it seems potions are still in, but still limited in max level. Improbable Elixirs seems to unlock high level potions.

Elixirs are alchemical, potions are magical (normally). Also potions are no longer spells in a can and do indeed go up to high levels now.

Very glad to read that Potions are being expanded and are no capped to lower levels, I'm hoping the same is true for Wands.


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I find it more likely that Oracle will be brought into the Sorcerer if anything, but I just want it to stay its own class.


ubiquitous42 wrote:

Bring back Damiel!

The Goblin interloper is #NotMyAlchemist

#bringDamielback!!!

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Pawns, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
TheFinish wrote:
Overall not very happy

This evaluation suffers from the same issue as many others in that it takes the VERY limited peak into the rules and views them through the scope of 1E rules. For example, yes bombs only do x6 base at capstone instead of the x10 they do in 1E, but what's to say that isn't a HUGE amount of damage within the scope of 2E? We need to see all the rules and how they interact before making a definitive decision on what is a "weak" option. Not to mention there are, if the description is accurate, a lot more of these class feats we haven't seen yet and they way be the balancing options that make these other options work well.

Essentially, I think we should all be cautiously optimistic about 2E. Don't get too excited, nor too discouraged by what you read in these VERY limited previews. It sounds like DPR is a bit more limited than it is in 1E, but there will be a lot more options for players to choose from for their character. If that is the case, I think it'll be a fantastic edition.


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It's nice to see a preview that isn't followed by senseless rage in the comments :)


I like the alchemical improcedente items idea, but my real concern here is the possibility to have infinite (alchemical) items in the core book as Starfinder have infinite (and irrelevant, since they just scale damage and change the fluffy name) weapons. This is not player-friendly. Specially to the new ones...

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Iammars wrote:
All this alchemist stuff is cool, but I'll admit that I'm more excited about the oracle hint in the blog!

Ditto.

My three favorite classes are bards, oracles and alchemists. It would be great to have some of all three represented in the Playtest! I am sort of hoping that sorcerers act a bit like oracles with bloodline feats that they can pick and choose from, and that oracles come in as a divine archetype of the sorc. Though please, please, please let curses still be a thing in 2e. Oracle curses were awesome fun!

TwilightKnight wrote:
Essentially, I think we should all be cautiously optimistic about 2E. Don't get too excited, nor too discouraged by what you read in these VERY limited previews. It sounds like DPR is a bit more limited than it is in 1E, but there will be a lot more options for players to choose from for their character. If that is the case, I think it'll be a fantastic edition.

Also, TwilightKnight is a wise man. We’re all viewing the alchemist through 1e glasses, and I think we’ll need to see how it works in its new mileu. I do hope though the Playtest will allow us to advocate for early-level melee alchemists as well as bombing alchemists. I’ve made and played both, and enjoyed what each had to offer!

Hmm


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Yeah, this preview confirms my previous view that the class needs to offer choice of focus on Mutagen/Melee vs Bomb paths early on. Nobody who likes the class for Mutagen & variations on it wants to wait until 5th to just get basic version or until 8th level to start doing something more specific with it. 10th level Stealth as Signature Skill and normal movement Stealth... That's just shambolic. People who like it for Bombs don't really have special need for Mutagen, they are making AoE/Touch attacks for f%+&s sake. Obviously neither focus needs to be too strong at the lowest levels, but IMHO one should be able to choose to focus on either and start getting results from doing that which work with Feat/Build choices that will synergize with stuff further down that path. OK, they can get abilities on both "sides" at Level 1, but that doesn't need to be much above what anybody else can with Alchemy Crafting Feat... There should be choice at early level about where to focus their abilities, on Mutagen/Melee or Bomb/Tinker. (leaving room for alternates like Cognatogen etc Paths)

I like the Trap Disabling, although it seems appropriate to be exclusive to Bomb/Tinker Path, while Poison/Healing is to Mutagen Path (or at least it seems reasonable more Poison/Healing stuff would be present there, even if some in "universal" abilities). Obviously if there is shared Formula list with common core that facilitates both Paths having at least basic abilities in other "sphere", although IMHO that also remains an area where specialization would be appropriate (ala Domain/Mystery spells, but more extensive). Bomb Alchemists using extracts as bombs seems pretty normal to me. Mutagen Alchemists getting more self(/other) buff/utility seems pretty normal to me. Cognatogen etc having unique spell/extract access seems pretty normal to me.

It seems pretty clear Paizo focused on bombs above all else. Like, that is very first sentence, suggesting this class is all about bombs. Yet it's not really, Mutagen focus doesn't reall have inherent link to being all about Bombs. The Archetype poll was pretty clear the far and away most popular archetypes were Mutagen/Melee focused. Next was Bomb/Gun/Tinker focused. Next was "Other" like Cognatogen etc. People often indicated preference to used archetypes from same "group" together. Doing it all at same time (or worse, force fed from one trough before allowed to start getting abilities in actual preferred area) just doesn't seem to have natural constituency.

And please, don't do Fast Bombs or mechanics which enable stuff like that. Make the Bombs better instead. Make Bombs that continue to explode (or burn, or have lingering cloud of suck etc) for 2nd round after first usage, if you want to build up total power but not upfront 1-round damage. They are AoE, so what is benefit of making so many extra attacks and dice rolls? It's pure video-game cheese.


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So, with resonance being used to patch over an alchemist's lack of time or money, we're going to have to balance our gear against our class features and our downtime/money.

The bard and sorcerer laughed at the alchemist upon hearing this.
Well, we'll show them! We'll show them all!


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:

To me it looks fun!

IF I imagine this correctly.. They won't have "spells" anymore. However, alchemical items will be spell LIKE. Oooooh: And everyone can make it with Alchemical Crafter.

But an Alchemist can brew these things up quicker, and for FREE with Resonance.

Also, it seems potions are still in, but still limited in max level. Improbable Elixirs seems to unlock high level potions.

Elixirs are alchemical, potions are magical (normally). Also potions are no longer spells in a can and do indeed go up to high levels now.

If they're not spells in a can, how do they go up in level? What's the level they are gated by? Better question, how are they made if you need to be level 18 Alchemist to make them(With the info we have right now)? How does Anti Magic work on them or spell resistance to possible potion attacks/debuffs?

Way too many questions how. And I liked making Potions as my alchemist but now, bah, not worth the effort considering the level lock and Resonance gating.


Mutagen only at 5th level? And what about 1st-level melee builds?


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Wild Spirit wrote:
It's nice to see a preview that isn't followed by senseless rage in the comments :)

Yet. Alchemist is my favorite class to mess with and this preview has left me with more concerns than anything else.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
In PF1, playing a melee Alchemist was well-supported with mutagen available at level 1 and archetypes such as the Vivisectionist and Beastmorph that gave you more melee punch. Will this playstyle continue to be an option in PF2 or is the assumption that all Alchemists do their damage through splash weapons?

Yeah, same here. I don't like the idea of having to wait until later levels before I can start focusing on mutagens. I understand pushing Feral mutagen back a bit, but waiting until 8th level before I can use natural attacks doesn't sound too appealing.

Though it might be the case that there are other alchemical items that give some mutagen-like abilities, and the mutagen class feature is just the more powerful class-specific version.

Also crossing my fingers EXTRA hard for some sort of alter-ego/alignment change mutagen for Master Chymist characters.


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None of my rage is senseless. My senselessness is cold and purposeful.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

So they got rid of all the Alchemist's Caster niftiness, made bombs just normal alchemical items (and weaker), made the PF1E normal features (Bombs gets Int mod to damage) into a Feat, moved precise bombs to 6th level (not that it matters much, if Splash is now a measly 1 damage) and mutagen is no longer level 1.

Oh, but you can make stuff that works like potions....at 18th level. And spend Resonance to get Alchemical Items on the fly.

Yay?

Also the original alchemist's bombs scaled so that a 19th level alchemist had bombs ten times as powerful as a 1st level alchemist, so I don't really see how six times is an improvement there.

Overall not very happy.

They can throw three bombs a round now right from level one.

You haven’t seen how normal alchemical items work yet.
6 x 1d6 = Avg. 21
21 x 3 = 64 avg damage

But we’re forgetting something important! >10< critical rule!

If bombs still target touch AND multiply on a critical hit then Alchemists are going to crit like crazy, and very rarely fumble.

Don’t make assumptions based off math and action economy of the previous game :-)

Unless they've massively upped the number of bombs you can have (which I doubt), throwing 3 bombs in a round is an absolute waste (especially when you consider -5/-10 with low level attack bonuses. Even if they still target touch, which we don't know)

You're also forgetting a PF1 alchemist added his Intelligence Bonus to all bomb damage AND his splash damage was minimum bomb damage. Instead of No Int-Bonus and 1, as it appears to be right now.

That and, again, if all bombs are alchemical items, you've lost an incredible ammount of versatility, since you need to prepare each one differently, instead of being able to select discoveries to get multiple damage types to choose when you're attacking.

Don't assume I don't know about the new action economy, my dislike for the Alchemist as presented goes beyond that.

TwilightKnight wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Overall not very happy

This evaluation suffers from the same issue as many others in that it takes the VERY limited peak into the rules and views them through the scope of 1E rules. For example, yes bombs only do x6 base at capstone instead of the x10 they do in 1E, but what's to say that isn't a HUGE amount of damage within the scope of 2E? We need to see all the rules and how they interact before making a definitive decision on what is a "weak" option. Not to mention there are, if the description is accurate, a lot more of these class feats we haven't seen yet and they way be the balancing options that make these other options work well.

Essentially, I think we should all be cautiously optimistic about 2E. Don't get too excited, nor too discouraged by what you read in these VERY limited previews. It sounds like DPR is a bit more limited than it is in 1E, but there will be a lot more options for players to choose from for their character. If that is the case, I think it'll be a fantastic edition.

I'm not concerned about DPR, I was pointing out that we come from 10x, so you telling me we go to 6x is not in any way a kind of "wow" factor. Especially since it means a slower damage progression, which again hits low levels hard.

I'm not happy because they got rid of Extracts (which was my favorite thing), bombs got weaker (not necessarily in a numbers game but obviously in the versatility game), mutagen got moved to 5th level (so making melee alchemists is probably harder than in PF1) and the rest of the preview is incredibly meh.


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Bruno Mares wrote:
Mutagen only at 5th level? And what about 1st-level melee builds?

I'd like to know this as well. My guess is that melee Alchemists will be expected to use poisons (which is fine by me, so long as poisons are actually good) but some confirmation would be nice.

Sovereign Court

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I really want to see what other alchemical items there are. The PF1 list expanded over time to include some neat buffs and effects that could be duplicated or improved for PF2.

Silver Crusade

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MerlinCross wrote:
Wild Spirit wrote:
It's nice to see a preview that isn't followed by senseless rage in the comments :)
Yet. Alchemist is my favorite class to mess with and this preview has left me with more concerns than anything else.

Weren't you full of concerns already? Is there any room to spare? :)


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Oh yeah... and I love that sketch. Goblin looks hardcore.


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Another case of incomplete information being teased out. In this case, considering the change in focus I think it's impossible to really judge the alchemist until we know more about alchemy in general. Consider: At 1st level, the alchemist will have 8 alchemical formulae. Assuming they don't intend to shoehorn every alchemist into the same selections, that means that there's probably around 18 to 20 alchemical items you can learn to craft at level 1. Then moving to level 20, you have 46 formulae in your book (initial 8+36 (2/level over 19 levels). Again, assuming that we don't just have every level 20 alchemist with the same set of alchemical items, it's reasonable to imagine somewhere in the range of 70 or 80 alchemical items in the Core book alone. If the alchemist is going to be defined by its alchemy, then the alchemy system, rather than the features listed here, will be what make or break the class.

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