| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is Staggered actually a threat at all in SF, when full-round actions are so much less useful?
Staggered is still a threat. Full attacking, for instance, is still a big deal and you're going to want to full attack more than not. Escaping melee to cast a spell is a little tougher, since 5-foot steps take a move action now. Some spells are more effective if cast as a full-round action.
Inflicting it on a single target with Save Negates as a standard action is... questionable. You're effectively trading your standard action for the chance to kill someone's move action. Their move action has to be significantly more valuable than your standard action to be worth that trade. Considering that targets with more valuable actions are also going to have higher saves (and thus, a higher chance of just ignoring your Crush), that trade is probably never going to be worth it.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Everyone kneels before gravity.
Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
|
"Go forth and observe the Cycle" is my first thought, but it could use work
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Cycle!The Crush revelation is cool, but I feel like that should be Fort save or be stunned for 1 round, and staggered on a successful save. New save on following rounds. I don't like abilities that are essentially the target makes their save and your turn was wasted.
...also, may the Cycle be with you(wow that sounds so weird).
I'd say "May you find your place in the Cycle."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It does 1d810.That's one weapon? Wow.Can you give an example of an Advanced Melee Weapon?Plasma Sword. Shock Truncheon. Pulse Gauntlet. Fangblade. Monowhip. Cryopike. Tactical Doshko. Swoop Hammer. Devastation Blade. Repeller staff.
Really? I thought only the Tactical Sniper Rifle the Sarcesian from Starfinder: First Contact did that!
Ranged tactical sniper rifle +12
(1d810+5 P) or
frag grenade II +12 (explode
20 ft., 2d6 P, DC 13)
Whew. I was worried that was a typo.
It does 1d810.That's one weapon? Wow.Can you give an example of an Advanced Melee Weapon?Plasma Sword. Shock Truncheon. Pulse Gauntlet. Fangblade. Monowhip. Cryopike. Tactical Doshko. Swoop Hammer. Devastation Blade. Repeller staff.Really? I thought only the Tactical Sniper Rifle the Sarcesian from Starfinder: First Contact did that!
Whew. I was worried that was a typo.Ranged tactical sniper rifle +12
(1d810+5 P) or
frag grenade II +12 (explode
20 ft., 2d6 P, DC 13)
I truly can't tell if hes being facetious or not.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I truly can't tell if hes being facetious or not.It does 1d810.That's one weapon? Wow.Can you give an example of an Advanced Melee Weapon?Plasma Sword. Shock Truncheon. Pulse Gauntlet. Fangblade. Monowhip. Cryopike. Tactical Doshko. Swoop Hammer. Devastation Blade. Repeller staff.Really? I thought only the Tactical Sniper Rifle the Sarcesian from Starfinder: First Contact did that!
Whew. I was worried that was a typo.Ranged tactical sniper rifle +12
(1d810+5 P) or
frag grenade II +12 (explode
20 ft., 2d6 P, DC 13)
There is no facetiousness, there is only the Cycle.
Anyone think there will be a lightning variant? I have never been a fan of fire. Plus I want to dish out the force lightning!
Developer, Starfinder Team
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is that a reference to the damage listed(which I assumed was a typo, otherwise I would never wanna fight that thing) for the Sarcesian's sniper rifle in the First Contact book?It does 1d810.That's one weapon? Wow.Can you give an example of an Advanced Melee Weapon?Plasma Sword. Shock Truncheon. Pulse Gauntlet. Fangblade. Monowhip. Cryopike. Tactical Doshko. Swoop Hammer. Devastation Blade. Repeller staff.
:D
Is Staggered actually a threat at all in SF, when full-round actions are so much less useful?Staggered is still a threat. Full attacking, for instance, is still a big deal and you're going to want to full attack more than not. Escaping melee to cast a spell is a little tougher, since 5-foot steps take a move action now. Some spells are more effective if cast as a full-round action.
Inflicting it on a single target with Save Negates as a standard action is... questionable. You're effectively trading your standard action for the chance to kill someone's move action. Their move action has to be significantly more valuable than your standard action to be worth that trade. Considering that targets with more valuable actions are also going to have higher saves (and thus, a higher chance of just ignoring your Crush), that trade is probably never going to be worth it.
Yeah, both of the revelations shown seem pretty much never worth choosing as your revelations known, as they are simply outright bad.
Given that revelations, as per the blog post, are supposed to be the primary class feature of Solarians (as per the "While the choice of solar armor or solar weapon and selection of different stellar revelations are the primary customization options for a solarian" and "Given the importance of stellar modes and stellar revelations, here are two sample revelations" quotes), that's kind of disheartening.After all, the choice to show off two outright bad revelations in a blog post promoting the game can, as far as I can see, only mean one of two things:
1. Paizo do not understand how their own system works and actually think those options are good.
For obvious reasons, this is not a good thing. I will, however, give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn't true, which leads me to...
2. Paizo think that a form of Ivory Tower design where most options are deliberately bad and there are no clear indications for players that they are bad is a good thing
For fairly obvious reasons, this is also a pretty bad thing, arguably even a worse thing than the above, as it implies deliberately punishing new players or players disinterested in optimisation for the "crime" of not making informed choices.
These two options seemingly being the only two options on the table worries me quite a bit.
Is Staggered actually a threat at all in SF, when full-round actions are so much less useful?Staggered is still a threat. Full attacking, for instance, is still a big deal and you're going to want to full attack more than not. Escaping melee to cast a spell is a little tougher, since 5-foot steps take a move action now. Some spells are more effective if cast as a full-round action.
Inflicting it on a single target with Save Negates as a standard action is... questionable. You're effectively trading your standard action for the chance to kill someone's move action. Their move action has to be significantly more valuable than your standard action to be worth that trade. Considering that targets with more valuable actions are also going to have higher saves (and thus, a higher chance of just ignoring your Crush), that trade is probably never going to be worth it.
Yeah, both of the revelations shown seem pretty much never worth choosing as your revelations known, as they are simply outright bad.
Given that revelations, as per the blog post, are supposed to be the primary class feature of Solarians (as per the "While the choice of solar armor or solar weapon and selection of different stellar revelations are the primary customization options for a solarian" and "Given the importance of stellar modes and stellar revelations, here are two sample revelations" quotes), that's kind of disheartening.
After all, the choice to show off two outright bad revelations in a blog post promoting the game can, as far as I can see, only mean one of two things:
1. Paizo do not understand how their own system works and actually think those options are good.
For obvious reasons, this is not a good thing. I will, however, give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn't true, which leads me to...
2. Paizo think that a form of Ivory Tower design where most options are deliberately bad and there are no clear indications for players that they are bad...
How do you know?
...Is Staggered actually a threat at all in SF, when full-round actions are so much less useful?Staggered is still a threat. Full attacking, for instance, is still a big deal and you're going to want to full attack more than not. Escaping melee to cast a spell is a little tougher, since 5-foot steps take a move action now. Some spells are more effective if cast as a full-round action.
Inflicting it on a single target with Save Negates as a standard action is... questionable. You're effectively trading your standard action for the chance to kill someone's move action. Their move action has to be significantly more valuable than your standard action to be worth that trade. Considering that targets with more valuable actions are also going to have higher saves (and thus, a higher chance of just ignoring your Crush), that trade is probably never going to be worth it.
Yeah, both of the revelations shown seem pretty much never worth choosing as your revelations known, as they are simply outright bad.
Given that revelations, as per the blog post, are supposed to be the primary class feature of Solarians (as per the "While the choice of solar armor or solar weapon and selection of different stellar revelations are the primary customization options for a solarian" and "Given the importance of stellar modes and stellar revelations, here are two sample revelations" quotes), that's kind of disheartening.
After all, the choice to show off two outright bad revelations in a blog post promoting the game can, as far as I can see, only mean one of two things:
1. Paizo do not understand how their own system works and actually think those options are good.
For obvious reasons, this is not a good thing. I will, however, give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn't true, which leads me to...
2. Paizo think that a form of Ivory Tower design where most options are deliberately bad and there are no clear indications
Everything ever shown and said about the mechanics so far indicates these options are bad.
Crush is almost definitely bad for the reason Aratrok outlined.Blazing Orbit is most likely bad simply because it's the mechanical equivalent of Wind Stance, a very bad feat in Pathfinder that pretty much noone ever took. The fire rider is ignorable as it requires the enemy to walk into it and even then is only even a tiny bit of damage. It would have been interesting if the game had 4e-style minions against whom the trail of fire would have been significant, but, as far as I can tell, those will not exist in Starfinder, thus killing the fire trail's only possible niche.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
8d6 and you could surround someone with it so they igther don't act or take 8d6 and it only costs you a move action. I think I'll wait and see the mechanics as a whole before I listen to you people trying your best to guess how they think things will work. Heck for all you know wind stance would be amazing in starfinder. There could always be something your missing.
also staggered is a pretty rough condition to suffer from. (maintained as a move action)
All I see is doomsayers everywhere.
8d6 and you could surround someone with it so they igther don't act or take 8d6 and it only costs you a move action. I think I'll wait and see the mechanics as a whole before I listen to you people trying your best to guess how they think things will work. Heck for all you know wind stance would be amazing in starfinder. There could always be something your missing.
also staggered is a pretty rough condition to suffer from. (maintained as a move action)
All I see is doomsayers everywhere.
It's 8d6 at level 20.
Starfinder monsters have roughly the same hitpoint values as Pathfinder monsters from what was shown so far. The average HP of a CR 20 monster is around 300-400.8d6 is average 28.
A monster at that level will just ignore it and walk right through it, especially since resistances exist.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah its probably better on multiple low level targets. good mook killer. But anyways I don't plan on crying about any rules till I can see them all together. maybe even try them out first, but You do what you gotta do.
Blazing orbit seems like there could be a use for it, but Crush is lackluster. Sure, you can maintain it as a move action, but it gives a save every round and once they save it can't be reapplied.
Also the stuff that's vulnerable to Crush has low Fort saves, which means low Con. Low Con means lower HP, which means the target would die faster if you just punched it instead.
Though it really depends on what the average save is, and how easy it is to boost the DC. Arguably attacking something has no guarantee to succded, but we all still spend standard actions on that. If it's easy enough to get the DC to a point where it succeeds 75-80% of the time, I think it isn't a complete waste.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The ranting again... *sigh*
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The ranting again... *sigh*
Criticism and concern are just as valid as gushing- perhaps more so, since they indicate problem areas to address or improve later.
It's cool to like things and get excited about the future. That's great! It makes people happy, and it tells the developers that what they're doing is well received. But it's also important to talk about what seems bad, or what could be improved.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure how I feel about having a bright light permanently orbiting my head in a setting where sniper rifles are a standard weapon type.
Dark Solarian it is!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But it's also important to talk about what seems bad, or what could be improved.
This particular instance is a case of an individual who only ever seems to do this bit... frankly, this case is far more grounded than the one that preceded it and likely prompted the post you responded to, but humans are weird.
But it's also important to talk about what seems bad, or what could be improved.This particular instance is a case of an individual who only ever seems to do this bit... frankly, this case is far more grounded than the one that preceded it and likely prompted the post you responded to, but humans are weird.
This is factually incorrect.
I gave praise to Starfinder where it was due on many occasions, even though I also provide criticism where it is needed.If I see a bad thing, I criticise it, if I see a good thing, I praise it.
This is simply the reasonable way to approach such content.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It does 1d810.
d810s, available August 2017 in the Paizo Store for the low, low price of $14.95!
(Hey, if FFG can do it...)
Everyone kneels before gravity.Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
I've never seen The Rifftrax of Star Wars, but I sure hope the included that joke. :)
Not sure how I feel about having a bright light permanently orbiting my head in a setting where sniper rifles are a standard weapon type.
Dark Solarian it is!
... and remembering that Sniper rifles do a d810 of damage, that is no joke. ;)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
... and remembering that Sniper rifles do a d810 of damage, that is no joke. ;)Not sure how I feel about having a bright light permanently orbiting my head in a setting where sniper rifles are a standard weapon type.
Dark Solarian it is!
Well it could still come up a 1.
|
|
Crush is a 6th level revelation. Assuming DCs at 10 + 1/2 level + ability score, you could have a DC of 17 without any trouble at level six when you take it (16 starting score + 2 from level up for +4 from ability mod and +3 from level). A CR 6 creature with the expert or spell caster array has a fort save of +5 meaning you have 60% success rate, or a 50% rate vs combatants. That before any ability that might buff your DCs or lower enemy saves. It's a much better success rate than most save or sucks without specializing in DCs or making your casting stat primary.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Crush is a 6th level revelation. Assuming DCs at 10 + 1/2 level + ability score, you could have a DC of 17 without any trouble at level six when you take it (16 starting score + 2 from level up for +4 from ability mod and +3 from level). A CR 6 creature with the expert or spell caster array has a fort save of +5 meaning you have 60% success rate, or a 50% rate vs combatants. That before any ability that might buff your DCs or lower enemy saves. It's a much better success rate than most save or sucks without specializing in DCs or making your casting stat primary.
Save or sucks typically trade a less valuable action for a chance at killing a more valuable action, otherwise they are self-defeating and counter-productive.
Here, you trade a more valuable action (standard) for a 50-60% chance of killing a less valuable action (move). Given that Solarian seems to be "the jedi class", it's very likely you're better off simply smacking the enemy.
Except its a move action so you can shut them down while attacking them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except its a move action so you can shut them down while attacking them.
It's only a move action on subsequent rounds, and even then you trade a move action for a 50% chance of denying the enemy their move action, after you already had to spend a standard for a 50% chance to deny the enemy a move on the first round. Assuming a 50% chance to save, you have a total cumulative 25% chance to even get that move action effect once.
You're far better off just relying on Step Up and Attacks of Opportunity to prevent the enemy from running away if that is your goal.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can we please go on? It's not like the ability is going to change anytime soon...if you don't like it just don't pick it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Can we please go on? It's not like the ability is going to change anytime soon...if you don't like it just don't pick it.
Public criticism and drawing attention to flaws increases the likelihood of anything being done about them. After all, prolonged and intense criticism of Core Rogue was what resulted in the Unchained Rogue being born.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Without seeing the entire system, your assumptions may be incorrect. Staggered appears to be a more valuable condition in startfinder because 5' steps are move actions and more powerful spells take full round actions. We don't know how easy it is to raise DCs or lower saves to make this more reliable. We don't even know if the save number I'm pulling from pathfinder unchained are correct, as the combat math including saves and DCs have been changed.
It's way too early to say this a trap option and an example of ivory tower design. I probably won't take it on my solarion, but I can see plenty of use for it, especially when you're four against one.
Except its a move action so you can shut them down while attacking them.It's only a move action on subsequent rounds, and even then you trade a move action for a 50% chance of denying the enemy their move action, after you already had to spend a standard for a 50% chance to deny the enemy a move on the first round. Assuming a 50% chance to save, you have a total cumulative 25% chance to even get that move action effect once.
You're far better off just relying on Step Up and Attacks of Opportunity to prevent the enemy from running away if that is your goal.
It's a move action, not a standard action. Nowhere does it say standard action under blazing orbit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We have no reason to assume that these powers are particularly representative of the overall abilities of the class, nor do we know enough about any other abilities the class has to judge how these powers factor into a given build, so speculating on the ability alone won't achieve much. I believe in one of the other previews it was stated by the devs that they like to show off the 'cool' abilities rather than the more mechanically optimisable ones so I doubt these are the bread and butter abilities the class will have. It seems likely to me that these are powers that aren't particularly good in general use but could become much stronger when used in tandem with other class abilities or abilities from different classes to boost their effectiveness. It's easy to say whether an ability is good or bad on paper when there's nothing for it to synergize with but the effectiveness may change in conjunction with other abilities.
we dont know the math may be its little bit more powerful than we think
But we already know the math.
We know the DC's are typically 10+half level+ability modifier.We know an ability score of 19 (without gear) or 21 (with gear) is the highest you can have at that level.
Thus, the DC is 17 or 18.
We also have the first contact PDF to see saving throws at that level.
There, Ksarik, a CR 4 creature has +8 Fortitude, meaning a 40-45% chance of success depending on your DC. And overall it seems like CR 4-ish creatures average +6 Fortitude, averaging a 50-55% chance of success for your action.
It's a move action, not a standard action. Nowhere does it say standard action under blazing orbit.Except its a move action so you can shut them down while attacking them.It's only a move action on subsequent rounds, and even then you trade a move action for a 50% chance of denying the enemy their move action, after you already had to spend a standard for a 50% chance to deny the enemy a move on the first round. Assuming a 50% chance to save, you have a total cumulative 25% chance to even get that move action effect once.
You're far better off just relying on Step Up and Attacks of Opportunity to prevent the enemy from running away if that is your goal.
You are reading the wrong ability. We were discussing Crush.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's the key phrase
We know the DC's are typically...
Again, you don't know. "Typically" is not definite. They have changed a lot of things and maybe saving throws are one thing that got change. Even if they didn't you typically get bonuses off certain party members. ::COUGH:: Envoy ::COUGH::
Maybe instead of hijacking another thread you let this one go. I think you have made your point.
If the DC for Crush can be set so that an enemy with a CR equal to your level would fail 80% of the time, then Crush would be acceptable to me, but only while attuned for it. That way you're trading a standard for a good chance to remove both their actions, and the possibility of trading a move for a move on subsequent rounds.
Blazing Orbit is fine enough as is. Other than the opportunity cost of 6th level revelations, it doesn't cost anything to use it. The damage isn't amazing, but AoOs aren't as easy to avoid in SF. Now if there were morale rules that forced enemies to to roll in order to enter obviously dangerous terrain, that would be different.
I liked the preview of the Solarian. The two powers they showed were ok, but they were 6th level powers and there possibly may be many other more interesting options for some. It was like the Soldier the ability they showed was ok, but not great. I look at them like spells. To me not all spells are great. I like some better than others. Criticism can be good thing. I will look at all the class abilities before can have strong opinion one way or the other.
The Solarian to me is like a 3.5 Psi-Warrior. The soldier also can focus on melee, but will have different options. I think fighting styles and gear boost will have a bigger impact than some may think at the moment from the small previews seen.
Dave2
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Only photons and gravitons? Why can't I manipulate the strong and weak forces?
Ok, on second thought maybe giving players the ability to cause nuclear explosions isn't the greatest idea. Good call, Paizo.
also it's only really big stars that become black hole and supernovae - vast majority become white dwarf, and that's not considering the fact that most stars I think don't even reach the main sequence so are brown dwarves
I liked the preview of the Solarian. The two powers they showed were ok, but they were 6th level powers and there possibly may be many other more interesting options for some. It was like the Soldier the ability they showed was ok, but not great. I look at them like spells. To me not all spells are great. I like some better than others. Criticism can be good thing. I will look at all the class abilities before can have strong opinion one way or the other.
The Solarian to me is like a 3.5 Psi-Warrior. The soldier also can focus on melee, but will have different options. I think fighting styles and gear boost will have a bigger impact than some may think at the moment from the small previews seen.
Dave2
I'll say it again. I want lightning instead of fire. I want to be able to force lightning someone into submission. Muahahahaha!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was initially unimpressed by Crush, but I realized that there are some nice situations. Any time an enemy has a heavy-duty weapon that takes a full action to fire, the trade suddenly becomes much better. Grab something useful to do with your move action, and force them into using a weaker backup weapon. Similarly, if any converted bestiary creatures show up, those might use traditional full attacks with natural weapons.
The energy blade/armor can be photon or graviton based? Or only photon?
| 16 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was initially unimpressed by Crush, but I realized that there are some nice situations. Any time an enemy has a heavy-duty weapon that takes a full action to fire, the trade suddenly becomes much better. Grab something useful to do with your move action, and force them into using a weaker backup weapon. Similarly, if any converted bestiary creatures show up, those might use traditional full attacks with natural weapons.
Our mainly photon solarian occasionally started using graviton control powers in situations like these, especially in a couple of fights against lower-Fort and highly mobile threats; in addition to the situations you identified, crush was hugely crippling against a pair of faceless stalker operatives since the one under the effects couldn't trick attack and lost much of their damage, which was a much larger percentage of the damage for the foes than the solarian lost, particularly since he had stellar rush to keep mobile and attack even without his move action (and since the party focused fire and killed the non-crushed one). It was always a weird shock for the party when he went graviton because of how often he went photon, but he was very clever about when to use it and it was always really effective because of that. He also got even crazier when he was working together with the envoy, but that was true every time.