Spencer Souris |
The planet use to hold Rovagug, a being stronger then any other deity, that took all for them together to seal him away. The Gap means everyone forgot about that planet, even the gods themselves. Now we have this nameless god that has the same MO as Rovagug.
My theory is that Rovagug got free, and caused the gap. He took the planet with him wherever he went and the main plot Paizo will focus on is finding this rogue god and ending him before he destroys the universe.
Owen K. C. Stephens Developer, Starfinder Team |
David knott 242 |
No one forgot about Golarion. They know it used to be around, they know it's history (in broad strokes) up to the Gap.
It's just that no one knows why it isn't where they left it, or what happened during the time of the Gap. Anywhere.
Owen, your quote suggests to me that the people in the Pact Worlds System may actually know more about the Gap than anyone else. They at least have reason to believe that the Gap and the disappearance of Golarion are somehow connected -- but aliens who live in other solar systems that are unaware of the existence of Golarion lack even that clue.
Remy P Gilbeau |
No one forgot about Golarion. They know it used to be around, they know it's history (in broad strokes) up to the Gap.
It's just that no one knows why it isn't where they left it, or what happened during the time of the Gap. Anywhere.
Do people have an actual idea, even vaguely, how long the Gap went on? Like, are we talking days, years, centuries? That's a question I haven't seen answered, if there is one.
The Raven Black |
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:No one forgot about Golarion. They know it used to be around, they know it's history (in broad strokes) up to the Gap.
It's just that no one knows why it isn't where they left it, or what happened during the time of the Gap. Anywhere.
Owen, your quote suggests to me that the people in the Pact Worlds System may actually know more about the Gap than anyone else. They at least have reason to believe that the Gap and the disappearance of Golarion are somehow connected -- but aliens who live in other solar systems that are unaware of the existence of Golarion lack even that clue.
Maybe other mysterious cosmic events happened in other sectors or galaxies during the Gap. Like all the mysterious Golarion-shaking events that happened at the time of the Earthfall and the death of Aroden
Maybe Golarion missing is merely a side-effect of the real cosmic event that caused the Gap
Owen K. C. Stephens Developer, Starfinder Team |
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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:Do people have an actual idea, even vaguely, how long the Gap went on? Like, are we talking days, years, centuries? That's a question I haven't seen answered, if there is one.No one forgot about Golarion. They know it used to be around, they know it's history (in broad strokes) up to the Gap.
It's just that no one knows why it isn't where they left it, or what happened during the time of the Gap. Anywhere.
There is an answer, at least vaguely, in the core rulebook. On page 425.
I am honestly not sure if we have a bigger, more detailed preview on that coming, so I will defer going into what that vague duration is until I am sure I am not stealing the thunder of someone's article on it.
Shisumo |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ah, I never thought of when the Gap 'started'.
I guess one question here is. Are people in the Starfinder setting aware that a god named Aroden once existed?
Iomedae is one of the big 20. You can't really talk about her history or credo or read her holy book without talking about Aroden.
Azih |
Fair enough Shisumo, but Iomedae seems to have ascended fully into being the 'Human God' by the time of Starfinder. Will she even be known as 'The Inheritor' by this time?
Maybe the beginning of the Gap is from before 1 AR, meaning the entirety of Aroden's divinity *could* conceivably be obscured by The Gap.
Imbicatus |
David knott 242 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I thought I read somewhere that the Gap is supposed to have started around the time that any particular group's Pathfinder campaign started. Anything that is historical even for the earliest published adventure path would be known history that precedes the Gap.
The Raven Black |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:No one forgot about Golarion. They know it used to be around...
It's just that no one knows why it isn't where they left it....So you're saying Golarion is a lot like my car keys?
If so, it turns out that the answer is that cats ran off with it.
Better than the mice I guess
Totally my new headcanon BTW :-D
Luna Protege |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Funny how this became "Lets talk about the gap" time. To contradict David, if we're going by the "the gap exists to cover up the outcome of APs"; I have to say, wouldn't it stretch not from APs you've already played, but APs you've YET to play? For example, if you're a group of players who keep up with new APs, if should stretch from "whatever AP is currently out" to "last night during a universe wide bender on pangalactic gargleblasters".
I'm going to try and bring this back to Gods now... I find it nice that the "God of Evolution" Oras is CN. Nice; fits a lot of the stuff I'd like in a character that would embody my unrestrained ego. Though I imagine that probably may end up more Gurren Lagann than anything. Nice to see a god that values self improvement that ISN'T lawful for once. (Or if I'm forgetting a neutral one, then a Chaotic god.)
On the other hand, I have to wonder what alignment a god not of biological evolution, but societal evolution would be like. Granted, knowing some of the Pathfinder gods, its probably LN, but I want to poke at this question.
I've kind of figured, in the sort of "cycles" that govern the change of society; how it works tends to be one set of values is in charge (Law), a new set of values comes into being that conflicts with them (Chaos), which if they're better, they supplant the old values and become the new order (Law).
I've kind of imagined in a flight of fancy that an outsider that embodies such a process would possess both lawful and Chaos subtypes.
(... And... Somehow in trying to bring this back to core topic I pass straight through it and into another tangent.)
bitfreak283 |
Given that supernovae are the most significant engines of creation in our current understanding of physics, I don't understand how/why the Devourer the Deity associated with them. If anything they're actively undoing everything the Devourer stands for.
Starfinder physics doesn't need to agree with ours but the terminology being used here is odd. Are you guys specifically addressing the idea that supernova > singularity therefore supernovae are the domain of the Devourer? Ignoring all other potential outcomes from supernovae.
Pharasma would be far more appropriate.
I searched the thread a bit to see if this had been asked, and I'll probably just errata that out for my own games, but I'd be interested to know if there is something I'm missing.
UnArcaneElection |
{. . .}
I'm going to try and bring this back to Gods now... I find it nice that the "God of Evolution" Oras is CN. Nice; fits a lot of the stuff I'd like in a character that would embody my unrestrained ego. Though I imagine that probably may end up more Gurren Lagann than anything. Nice to see a god that values self improvement that ISN'T lawful for once. (Or if I'm forgetting a neutral one, then a Chaotic god.)On the other hand, I have to wonder what alignment a god not of biological evolution, but societal evolution would be like. Granted, knowing some of the Pathfinder gods, its probably LN, but I want to poke at this question.
{. . .}
Arguably, Abadar has the marketing lock on social evolution.
{. . .}
I've kind of imagined in a flight of fancy that an outsider that embodies such a process would possess both lawful and Chaos subtypes.
I've toyed with the thought that in some campaign setting (not the current ones because it doesn't fit), some deities would be dualistic, marketing to (and having Clerics/other divines serving) opposing concepts. I've been thinking of this ever since seeing Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil many years ago . . . .
KingOfAnything |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Given that supernovae are the most significant engines of creation in our current understanding of physics, I don't understand how/why the Devourer the Deity associated with them. If anything they're actively undoing everything the Devourer stands for.
Starfinder physics doesn't need to agree with ours but the terminology being used here is odd. Are you guys specifically addressing the idea that supernova > singularity therefore supernovae are the domain of the Devourer? Ignoring all other potential outcomes from supernovae.
Pharasma would be far more appropriate.
Forest fires are a necessary part of a healthy forest, generally improving access to nutrients for the surviving vegetation. I wouldn't object to a god of natural destruction having an interest in forest fires, though. While they have positive effects, fires are violent and sometimes more destructive than constructive.
I think of supernovae in the same way. While they do a lot to spread heavy elements in the universe, they are essentially a violent end to a star, and can lead to singularities.
bitfreak283 |
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To preface, I'm aware this is only a preview and the core rulebook as well as subsequent books may clear a lot of this up.
Forest fires are a necessary part of a healthy forest, generally improving access to nutrients for the surviving vegetation. I wouldn't object to a god of natural destruction having an interest in forest fires, though. While they have positive effects, fires are violent and sometimes more destructive than constructive.
The discussion we're having now is what I expect to have happened the setting at some point, the statement I'm attempting to make was less "no it should be this way" and instead "why is it this way?". Perhaps more importantly, why in setting is everyone ok to have it this way?
As for the forest fire metaphor, honestly I'd expect that any society where physical divinity is a thing that they'd associate something like that with a god of rebirth or even healing. The practice of religion, abstracted from whatever divine power actually exists within the setting, is largely about making the practitioner feel better about themselves. Its far easier to pick through the charred remains of your home looking for a child who didn't escape when the thought in the back of your mind is "Pharasma gives, Pharasma takes." than the implication of some generic God of EdgelordingDestruction simply thinking "LAWL FUK U EL-OH-EL".
Why would this matter? Because in a setting with physical divinity you can be pretty sure that as soon as such arguments became a thing they'd be resolved by the sword, or manapistol, very quickly. Even unto the point of inducing the Gods themselves to capitulate.
I think of supernovae in the same way. While they do a lot to spread heavy elements in the universe, they are essentially a violent end to a star, and can lead to singularities.
No dying stars no carbon. It isn't just the heavier elements, its pretty much everything beyond Lithium. Giving something positioned as the "Devourer" any nominal domain over something as creation-required as Supernova is... almost juvenile. Its the kind of reaction I'd expect 11 year old me to think was "cool".
Aside from the element creation supernovae create some of the most spectacular and beautiful structures in the universe,
Having the Devourer just be entropy, pure and unbridled, is far more of a terrifying implication than his current domains. Even singularities eventually evaporate.
Ouachitonian |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To preface, I'm aware this is only a preview and the core rulebook as well as subsequent books may clear a lot of this up.
KingOfAnything wrote:Forest fires are a necessary part of a healthy forest, generally improving access to nutrients for the surviving vegetation. I wouldn't object to a god of natural destruction having an interest in forest fires, though. While they have positive effects, fires are violent and sometimes more destructive than constructive.The discussion we're having now is what I expect to have happened the setting at some point, the statement I'm attempting to make was less "no it should be this way" and instead "why is it this way?". Perhaps more importantly, why in setting is everyone ok to have it this way?
As for the forest fire metaphor, honestly I'd expect that any society where physical divinity is a thing that they'd associate something like that with a god of rebirth or even healing. The practice of religion, abstracted from whatever divine power actually exists within the setting, is largely about making the practitioner feel better about themselves. Its far easier to pick through the charred remains of your home looking for a child who didn't escape when the thought in the back of your mind is "Pharasma gives, Pharasma takes." than the implication of some generic God of
EdgelordingDestruction simply thinking "LAWL FUK U EL-OH-EL".Why would this matter? Because in a setting with physical divinity you can be pretty sure that as soon as such arguments became a thing they'd be resolved by the sword, or manapistol, very quickly. Even unto the point of inducing the Gods themselves to capitulate.
KingOfAnything wrote:I think of supernovae in the same way. While they do a lot to spread heavy elements in the universe, they are essentially a violent end to a star, and can lead to singularities.No dying stars no carbon. It isn't just the heavier elements, its pretty much everything beyond Lithium. Giving something positioned as the...
You seem to think that somehow the attributes of the gods depend on the worshippers. It's not that, because people choose to see fire as rebirth, it becomes the purview of the goddess of birth and death. It's that there is a god of destruction, who's existed since before there were worshippers, and in destruction he reveals his character. Believers don't, by their beliefs, shape the gods. Rather, the gods attributes' are revealed by their actions.
Set |
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No dying stars no carbon. It isn't just the heavier elements, its pretty much everything beyond Lithium. Giving something positioned as the...
This is all science-y goodness, and I dig it, but in the fantastical world of Golarion (or post-Golarion), stars are *also* giant portals to the positive energy plane, from which the energy which gives all things life comes (and, IIRC, the portals through which mortal souls enter the material plane).
So the destruction of a star, which in our world spreads all the elements of material world creation and the components necessary for the evolution of biological life, is a very different thing in this fantasy universe. It represents a dimming of the energies that sustain life itself (and perhaps a commensurate strengthening of negative energy, a force of entropy and dissolution...), and a closing window to the source of all souls.
Yes, to our modern sensibilities, it's about as well reasoned as 'fire bad, tree pretty,' but in this fantasy world, positive energy and life (which, in the real world includes ebola, cancer, mosquitos, sharks, serial killers, etc.) is objectively tied to 'good' and negative energy and death (even if it is the death of the unpleasant things, like flesh-eating bacteria or cordyceps fungus or that spiny fish that swims up your urethra) is 'evil.'
The Raven Black |
bitfreak283 wrote:No dying stars no carbon. It isn't just the heavier elements, its pretty much everything beyond Lithium. Giving something positioned as the...This is all science-y goodness, and I dig it, but in the fantastical world of Golarion (or post-Golarion), stars are *also* giant portals to the positive energy plane, from which the energy which gives all things life comes (and, IIRC, the portals through which mortal souls enter the material plane).
So the destruction of a star, which in our world spreads all the elements of material world creation and the components necessary for the evolution of biological life, is a very different thing in this fantasy universe. It represents a dimming of the energies that sustain life itself (and perhaps a commensurate strengthening of negative energy, a force of entropy and dissolution...), and a closing window to the source of all souls.
Yes, to our modern sensibilities, it's about as well reasoned as 'fire bad, tree pretty,' but in this fantasy world, positive energy and life (which, in the real world includes ebola, cancer, mosquitos, sharks, serial killers, etc.) is objectively tied to 'good' and negative energy and death (even if it is the death of the unpleasant things, like flesh-eating bacteria or cordyceps fungus or that spiny fish that swims up your urethra) is 'evil.'
Though I agree with most of your post, remember that Positive Energy is not Good (nor Evil) and Negative Energy is not Evil (nor Good). And the goddess that has the greatest dominion over Death also has the same over Life and is True Neutral (Pharasma).
So, Death is not Evil in PFRPG and Life is not Good either. And I guess it is the same for SFRPG.
Now, Undeath is another thing completely. I wonder is the Undead = Evil trope is as strong in SFRPG as it is in PFRPG. Urgathoa's continued presence as a Core deity points to Yes.
The Raven Black |
Given that supernovae are the most significant engines of creation in our current understanding of physics, I don't understand how/why the Devourer the Deity associated with them. If anything they're actively undoing everything the Devourer stands for.
Starfinder physics doesn't need to agree with ours but the terminology being used here is odd. Are you guys specifically addressing the idea that supernova > singularity therefore supernovae are the domain of the Devourer? Ignoring all other potential outcomes from supernovae.
Pharasma would be far more appropriate.
I searched the thread a bit to see if this had been asked, and I'll probably just errata that out for my own games, but I'd be interested to know if there is something I'm missing.
The Devourer does not care for any fringe benefits for life that would come from supernovae. It only cares that another star is no more. The creation elements accompanying this death will also be destroyed in time and far faster if the Devourer can get its way.
The Devourer does not care about the intricacies of the cycle of life and death. It want to accelerate it as much as possible to its inevitable end which is also the final end of everything
UnArcaneElection |
{. . .}
Yes, to our modern sensibilities, it's about as well reasoned as 'fire bad, tree pretty,' but in this fantasy world, positive energy and life (which, in the real world includes ebola, cancer, mosquitos, sharks, serial killers, etc.) is objectively tied to 'good' and negative energy and death (even if it is the death of the unpleasant things, like flesh-eating bacteria or cordyceps fungus or that spiny fish that swims up your urethra) is 'evil.
Wait . . . do you mean the fish in this video?
dharkus |
No dying stars no carbon. It isn't just the heavier elements, its pretty much everything beyond Lithium.
that's not right - you only need big stars to create carbon, the carbon-Nitrogen-Oxygen cycle is the main means by which fusion happens in stars over a certain mass on the main sequence
Luna Protege |
bitfreak283 wrote:that's not right - you only need big stars to create carbon, the carbon-Nitrogen-Oxygen cycle is the main means by which fusion happens in stars over a certain mass on the main sequence
No dying stars no carbon. It isn't just the heavier elements, its pretty much everything beyond Lithium.
Perhaps... But very little of it will be spread into the universe to become part of a planet unless its ejected said the star. Such as via a Coronal Mass Ejection, (which may not be enough) or the star going super nova.
UnArcaneElection |
The good old candiru.
Whoa, the Candiru really is the fish in that video . . . well, sort of . . . .
The Penecontemporaneous One |
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If Shelyn doesn't make the cut, I wonder what that says about the Shelyn/ Zon-Kulthon duality. Did his cult "win" in some sense against the forces of beauty? What about {I]Whisperer of Souls[/I]? If this bit of history is unmentioned in the Pathfinder material, my headcannon will be that Shelyn conspired with some other gods to remain with Golarion, playing keep-away with said glaive and whatever else doesn't need to be found in the Pact Worlds.
At first, this was one of my few real disappointments in the book, that Shelyn didn't even make the "other gods" list...but then I looked a bit more carefully, and found cause for hope :)
IonutRO |
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First World Bard wrote:If Shelyn doesn't make the cut, I wonder what that says about the Shelyn/ Zon-Kulthon duality. Did his cult "win" in some sense against the forces of beauty? What about {I]Whisperer of Souls[/I]? If this bit of history is unmentioned in the Pathfinder material, my headcannon will be that Shelyn conspired with some other gods to remain with Golarion, playing keep-away with said glaive and whatever else doesn't need to be found in the Pact Worlds.At first, this was one of my few real disappointments in the book, that Shelyn didn't even make the "other gods" list...but then I looked a bit more carefully, and found cause for hope :)
I wouldn't say hope, I'd more say terror. She's going places that might very well corrupt her.
Lanitril |
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The Penecontemporaneous One wrote:I wouldn't say hope, I'd more say terror. She's going places that might very well corrupt her.First World Bard wrote:If Shelyn doesn't make the cut, I wonder what that says about the Shelyn/ Zon-Kulthon duality. Did his cult "win" in some sense against the forces of beauty? What about {I]Whisperer of Souls[/I]? If this bit of history is unmentioned in the Pathfinder material, my headcannon will be that Shelyn conspired with some other gods to remain with Golarion, playing keep-away with said glaive and whatever else doesn't need to be found in the Pact Worlds.At first, this was one of my few real disappointments in the book, that Shelyn didn't even make the "other gods" list...but then I looked a bit more carefully, and found cause for hope :)
:O !!
I neeeeeeeeed the book. But more importantly, actually, I want a graphic novel about what's going on.
Paris Crenshaw Contributor |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
IonutRO wrote:The Penecontemporaneous One wrote:I wouldn't say hope, I'd more say terror. She's going places that might very well corrupt her.First World Bard wrote:If Shelyn doesn't make the cut, I wonder what that says about the Shelyn/ Zon-Kulthon duality. Did his cult "win" in some sense against the forces of beauty? What about {I]Whisperer of Souls[/I]? If this bit of history is unmentioned in the Pathfinder material, my headcannon will be that Shelyn conspired with some other gods to remain with Golarion, playing keep-away with said glaive and whatever else doesn't need to be found in the Pact Worlds.At first, this was one of my few real disappointments in the book, that Shelyn didn't even make the "other gods" list...but then I looked a bit more carefully, and found cause for hope :):O !!
I neeeeeeeeed the book. But more importantly, actually, I want a graphic novel about what's going on.
One other interesting thing in that section:
Not mentioned anywhere else in the book. THAT is a really cool hook.
Set |
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One other interesting thing in that section:
** spoiler omitted **
Not mentioned anywhere else in the book. THAT is a really cool hook.
Quote from an old Rom: Spaceknight comic, from the captain of a dire wraith spaceship;
"Whip the warp-witches bloody, if you must! We need more power from their infernal incantations!"
I love weirdness like that!
UnArcaneElection |
Lanitril wrote:IonutRO wrote:The Penecontemporaneous One wrote:I wouldn't say hope, I'd more say terror. She's going places that might very well corrupt her.First World Bard wrote:If Shelyn doesn't make the cut, I wonder what that says about the Shelyn/ Zon-Kulthon duality. Did his cult "win" in some sense against the forces of beauty? What about {I]Whisperer of Souls[/I]? If this bit of history is unmentioned in the Pathfinder material, my headcannon will be that Shelyn conspired with some other gods to remain with Golarion, playing keep-away with said glaive and whatever else doesn't need to be found in the Pact Worlds.At first, this was one of my few real disappointments in the book, that Shelyn didn't even make the "other gods" list...but then I looked a bit more carefully, and found cause for hope :):O !!
I neeeeeeeeed the book. But more importantly, actually, I want a graphic novel about what's going on.
One other interesting thing in that section:
Spoiler:"...shadowdrives, which were popular before the discovery of Drift travel among those willing to trade excruciating pain for speed"Not mentioned anywhere else in the book. THAT is a really cool hook.
This reminds me of the FTL in the Hyperion tetralogy by Dan Simmons -- the FTL drives were doing something bad to spacetime everywhere, and the later Archangel drives would kill you -- the trick was that the users of the Archangel drives had a symbiont on them that would resurrect them.
The Penecontemporaneous One |
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One other interesting thing in that section:
** spoiler omitted **
Not mentioned anywhere else in the book. THAT is a really cool hook.
They do list the movie Event Horizon as an influence for Starfinder. I could totally see the FTL drive from that movie being statted-out as one of those in Starfinder!
Paris Crenshaw Contributor |
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Paris Crenshaw wrote:They do list the movie Event Horizon as an influence for Starfinder. I could totally see the FTL drive from that movie being statted-out as one of those in Starfinder!One other interesting thing in that section:
** spoiler omitted **
Not mentioned anywhere else in the book. THAT is a really cool hook.
Event Horizon was definitely mentioned in various panels and interviews as being an inspiration for elements of Starfinder. (The interpretation could be that the ship in the movie took a trip through the Drift and encountered a chunk of Hell or other evil plane along the way.)
I imagine utilizing a shadowdrive would combine an exchange of pain/blood for power and that the travel would somehow drawing on or passing through the Plane of Shadow. Overall, not a pleasant experience. You know, unless...you're into that. ;)
The Penecontemporaneous One |
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The Penecontemporaneous One wrote:I wouldn't say hope, I'd more say terror. She's going places that might very well corrupt her.First World Bard wrote:If Shelyn doesn't make the cut, I wonder what that says about the Shelyn/ Zon-Kulthon duality. Did his cult "win" in some sense against the forces of beauty? What about {I]Whisperer of Souls[/I]? If this bit of history is unmentioned in the Pathfinder material, my headcannon will be that Shelyn conspired with some other gods to remain with Golarion, playing keep-away with said glaive and whatever else doesn't need to be found in the Pact Worlds.At first, this was one of my few real disappointments in the book, that Shelyn didn't even make the "other gods" list...but then I looked a bit more carefully, and found cause for hope :)
If one of Shelyn's names wasn't "The Incorruptible" I might be worried :)
IonutRO |
IonutRO wrote:If one of Shelyn's names wasn't "The Incorruptible" I might be worried :)The Penecontemporaneous One wrote:I wouldn't say hope, I'd more say terror. She's going places that might very well corrupt her.First World Bard wrote:If Shelyn doesn't make the cut, I wonder what that says about the Shelyn/ Zon-Kulthon duality. Did his cult "win" in some sense against the forces of beauty? What about {I]Whisperer of Souls[/I]? If this bit of history is unmentioned in the Pathfinder material, my headcannon will be that Shelyn conspired with some other gods to remain with Golarion, playing keep-away with said glaive and whatever else doesn't need to be found in the Pact Worlds.At first, this was one of my few real disappointments in the book, that Shelyn didn't even make the "other gods" list...but then I looked a bit more carefully, and found cause for hope :)
Titles are meaningless.
Protean Milkshake |
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IonutRO wrote:If one of Shelyn's names wasn't "The Incorruptible" I might be worried :)The Penecontemporaneous One wrote:At first, this was one of my few real disappointments in the book, that Shelyn didn't even make the "other gods" list...but then I looked a bit more carefully, and found cause for hope :)I wouldn't say hope, I'd more say terror. She's going places that might very well corrupt her.
That's the thing about absolute titles: They are true, until unexpectantly, they aren't. As scary as ZK as, Shelyn the Cenobite Queen would be far scarier.