Introducing the Core Campaign

I cannot help but think that supporting this is a bad idea as a player, and as a customer, because I get saddled with grossly fewer options when I've spent the time and money to learn the system so I could play what I want within the limits that already exist in Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society. I'd also be contributing to splitting the player base, reducing Paizo's income generation by supporting something that requires fewer books to be purchased for the most benefit to be yielded... I like pouring over books to find all the minutiae that can help my character contribute to the team.

Playing this kinda of game would make me feel unclean basically.

Any worse than playing a home game with all your source from the internet? Realistically regardless of how you play, Paizo's income depends on people who appreciate what they do well enough to pay money for it.

It's why I bought Inner Sea Gods at a small premium because local distributors were having problems getting their hands on it. Yet it's also why I will shun the Technology Guide every chance I get. Regardless of how you play, if Paizo turns out a good product and you have the money to spend on it, there's nothing stopping you.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Another thing I thought of and don't recall seeing brought up is that this means there are twice as many options for specials since they can be offered both CORE and non-CORE. Areas where a lot of, but not all players, have already played previous season specials may benefit from being able to offer them again in CORE format and everyone can play AND GM for credit. As a bonus, GMs actively trying to earn their 5th star, now have more options to fulfill the 10-special requirement.

My usual group discussed that issue literally yesterday, but I have to ask:

How many of you are just happy to be able to replay some scenarios? (And do not care all that much for the core limit).

If there's a scenario I like and a character in tier who hasn't played it and there are no other PFS tables running and they could use another player to make the table legal, I'm usually quite happy to play for no credit.

On the flip side my first month of playing Pathfinder I purchased half a dozen pdfs. I suspect if I were confined to playing core content, rules as written, I would have given up on Pathfinder within two months. This isn't for me though I may still indulge in a core game from time to time and I certainly won't give someone a hard time if this is actually something they would enjoy.

Yeah I am one of those players who spends about 10-15 hours on character creation, to create a character that - within the rules - fits my view of the character, or will do so after a couple of chronicles (actually that is one of the reasons why I dislike depending on chronicle goodies, I mean I know where to get that damn keen longbow but ....).

I renounce the idea, that a new player has to read everything, I think these days it is far more likely that players ask for help and try to benefit from the shared knowledge of other players.
Until a couple months ago I refused to wear a tie, I din't have great reason for this (other than working as an insurance expert for years and avoiding it^^), but the day came where I could not avoid it.. a wedding.
So I went on youtube and looked for a guide on the matter, and I found several pretty terrible guides... until I stumbled on a lovely lady that explained and showed it perfectly.
That approach worked for me, just reading a book about ties might have resulted in a slight case of strangulation on my part.

My personal theory is, that this desire to play core, is based on the idea, that this would allow GMs to avoid all the really broken stuff (and combinations), without having to deal with the players of all those zen archers, summoners, gunslingers, ..... ..... ..... ..... .... .... .... .....

It is a natural progression for players who started with the beginners box, something I have yet to witness, but that really isn't my area of expertise.
As it happens this noble goal (helping new players into the game) doesn't have to split the player base, all that is required, is to give a small incentive (additional PP for experienced/new players for re-playing a scenario with newbies/player using core rules.

I really would prefer, it if the PFS leadership were to ban or nerv some of the often abused options (ghoz masks, alchemical allocation).

Any worse than playing a home game with all your source from the internet? Realistically regardless of how you play, Paizo's income depends on people who appreciate what they do well enough to pay money for it.

It's why I bought Inner Sea Gods at a small premium because local distributors were having problems getting their hands on it. Yet it's also why I will shun the Technology Guide every chance I get. Regardless of how you play, if Paizo turns out a good product and you have the money to spend on it, there's nothing stopping you.

I agree, completely (have the Iron gods AP, but still hold out on the Technology Guide, I guess I am still a bit salty because of the technologist feat) Paizo is a very generous company, and their willingness to add all that material to the PRD makes my life far easier. That deserves to be rewarded with plenty of monies ^^

I think I'm missing Bestiaries 3 and 4 from the PRD, along with Mythic Adventures, and Ultimate Equipment. I should grab a hardcover of the Advanced Player's Guide too, because it's so much easier to look up rules with the physical copy than a PDF. And then there are all the Player Companions and Campaign Setting books I've grabbed as well.

Philderbeast wrote:

Please please please please let core characters sit at the same table as non-core characters without losing there core only status.

I disagree. Reporting is not the driving issue here. If a player with a CORE character is sitting at a mixed table, s/he gets to benefit directly or indirectly from non-CORE content through their interactions with the non-CORE characters at the table. That is not what CORE is about.

It would also undercut the GM who wanted to GM a Core game so that he or she wouldn't have to worry about dealing with the plethora of character classes, archetypes, and options that are outside of the core rulebook.

Core isn't just for the players; it's also for the GMs. Anecdotally, we've seen some people in this thread saying that they were hesitant to start GMing PFS, but that this option encourages them. That only works if there is such a thing as a Core-only table.

You already CAN create a character entirely from the CRB and play it at a regular table, if you want! There's nothing illegal about that. It won't be a "Core" character, but it will be PFS legal. When I GM PFS games, I bring along a bunch of characters I've made that way, so that I can hand them off to newbies who are not likely to have random additional resources. (The two things I add that aren't in the CRB are things from the Character Traits web enhancement and... yes, a journal from UE, because even though it's not CRB, it's hardly gamebreaking (really, it's just fluff), and it seems like Pathfinders ought to have one.)

CORE-only means the players will have no incentive to buy anything (other than maybe snacks & drinks) at the stores and that may negatively impact the image of Paizo & PFS for the store folks.

Here is my thinking. But first, my disclaimer: I may be an idiot.

OK, so this move is intended to address new players/GMs who feel too overwhelmed to participate, as well as older players/GMs who gave up on PFS due to bloat or lack of new games to play. In all of those cases, these are players who were lost to us. They hadn't joined up, had dropped out, were burnt out, etc.

In other words, none of them were spending any money at all.

So, this solution ropes in new people and re-opens the doors to older returning players. This announcement almost entirely pulls in extra bodies.

In other words, it's almost entirely a source of additional revenue, not less.

Granted, it is possible that there are some players out there who have been dutifully buying up all the splatbooks, and switch solely to avoid spending any more money. However, I think there are two important points to make about that:

• That's not going to be a lot of people. If you play in the existing game, what are the odds that you'll completely abandon that for a purely core experience? What are the odds that lots of existing players will do that? I was just tonight at my local game store when this was announced to about 20 PFS players, and while almost every single one wanted to try it out, a total of zero said they were dropping the existing, normal campaign.
  
• If a player does go from spending lots to spending nothing, that's a strong indication that they were tired of the existing setup anyway! In other words, they weren't going to last much longer in the game as it stood. So "losing" them to a Core game is better than losing them forever to the void.
  

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Philderbeast wrote:

Please please please please let core characters sit at the same table as non-core characters without losing there core only status.

I disagree. Reporting is not the driving issue here. If a player with a CORE character is sitting at a mixed table, s/he gets to benefit directly or indirectly from non-CORE content through their interactions with the non-CORE characters at the table. That is not what CORE is about.

It would also undercut the GM who wanted to GM a Core game so that he or she wouldn't have to worry about dealing with the plethora of character classes, archetypes, and options that are outside of the core rulebook.

Core isn't just for the players; it's also for the GMs. Anecdotally, we've seen some people in this thread saying that they were hesitant to start GMing PFS, but that this option encourages them. That only works if there is such a thing as a Core-only table.

You already CAN create a character entirely from the CRB and play it at a regular table, if you want! There's nothing illegal about that. It won't be a "Core" character, but it will be PFS legal. When I GM PFS games, I bring along a bunch of characters I've made that way, so that I can hand them off to newbies who are not likely to have random additional resources. (The two things I add that aren't in the CRB are things from the Character Traits web enhancement and... yes, a journal from UE, because even though it's not CRB, it's hardly gamebreaking (really, it's just fluff), and it seems like Pathfinders ought to have one.)

Handing out premade characters for new players is a great idea, I have seen it attacked on these boards, but giving people the choice is always good in my book.

Regarding letting core people sit at a non-core table, I am not sure if that isn't undercutting the core GM even more. After all if there aren't enough players for a core only game, chances are that either those 3 players don't get to play, or that they will "burn" their characters for CORE games.

I think I'm missing Bestiaries 3 and 4 from the PRD, along with Mythic Adventures, and Ultimate Equipment. I should grab a hardcover of the Advanced Player's Guide too, because it's so much easier to look up rules with the physical copy than a PDF. And then there are all the Player Companions and Campaign Setting books I've grabbed as well.

I am missing a couple of books, but I really can't justify buying some pdfs, I already own the Rise of the Runelords hardcover... getting the pdf just so I can access that one spell wherever I play seems fiscally irresponsible.

That said, I own a legal source and I have no problem if they band or nerf that spell.

A week night 3-7 game is scheduled, with a pretty standard group of 6 people showing up. In this case, though, it's one GM, 2 players with core-only characters, 2 players with "all the bells & whistles" characters and one walk-in player who doesn't have anything in-tier, but owns lots of PF product and came to the store to buy more.

As far as I can tell, this should almost never happen. They already mentioned earlier in the thread that Warhorn is getting upgraded to handle this, which means that when the store offers that 3-7 game, it will be flagged ahead of time as "CORE ONLY" if it is. Therefore, everyone will know ahead of time to bring a Core character. The walk-in wouldn't matter either way in your example, since he was going to be handed a pre-gen regardless of the decision. So he's getting a Core pre-gen and the game moves forward.

If someone shows up to a Core game with an expanded character, that doesn't throw everything into disarray and cause the organizer to possibly change the game, screwing over the Core-only players. No. Instead, the organizer can nicely say, "Well you screwed up, and your character is not valid here. Get out a Core character, or play a pre-gen. And learn to pay attention to the 'CORE ONLY' headline next time."

And then maybe he hits that player with a fish. Maybe.

(Sorry, I'm being obviously silly. I just think the concern that players will all show up with different types of characters and somehow ruin it for everyone is a bit too high-anxiety. These troubles shouldn't happen once the scheduling system is upgraded to prominently display that Core games are... Core games.)

Shadowh3ll wrote:

So I do apologize if I missed this point earlier in the thread. Can I take a core character and apply non-COre sheets to it as a GM before it is played? IE RUn 12 COre Sessions then 1 normal and then build the character?

Just trying to cover something that will come up.

Here you go

THanks Michael

Sorry if this has been asked before... but for Core, if you play a human, can you still pick a human ethnicity? Aka, Tien, Ulfen...etc?

You can pick it it just won't DO anything like give you a language

Thanks BigNorseWolf!

I was thinking of the role-play options.

Ok...this is going so be a little long and tongue in cheek but someone has to play the devil's advocate (no I never had any Cheliax characters).

-This is going to divide the community as previously mentioned. It will cause problems for smaller player communities.

-I'm sure there are a lot of the more experienced 4 and 5 stars that have played (and run) pretty much everything. I feel the same way and I've had to be really selective about what I play. It's nice that this is sort of a clean slate. There is one problem: it doesn't solve any of the replay issues over the long term. Many of the same people that have played almost everything will likely be back in the same place a couple of years from now. I have always maintained that replay needs to be opened up by a trickle, not a deluge.

-Also related to the above point: So Paizo is in business to make money. They make money by selling books. Now there is a campaign where you don't need to own anything outside the core book. This change does nothing for players who already have pretty much played everything. You're going to have your most dedicated players with little or no reason to buy anything new if they go all CORE.

-I sense one of the ideas in creating this was to slow the curve on optimization that the main campaign has. I've run my fair share of games and I've run plenty where players ROFLstomp their way through everything. It's something you just have to deal with because adversarial GMs are the suck. That being said this change will likely produce two types of CORE players 1)new people and 2) very experienced players that some may have issues with the first group for not pulling their weight (or "carrying" in MMO language...I hate it too).

-Specials: Are we going to have CORE specials or are we going to have some tables at the every going one way or the other?

-One of the cited goals was to make chronicle sheets viable again. That's nice, I'm sure I'm going to be chomping at the bit to get a Cloak of Resistance +1. Being more serious though, you're going to see a lot more emphasis on the more recent seasons. The more recent ones have better loot and access to items otherwise not available in Core. Of course, I have a feeling this void affecting the older scenarios may be getting filled by content from the upcoming Faction Cards.

-I get the idea of CORE but I find it slightly too limiting. In addition to the core rulebook this is what I would suggest:
Advanced Players Guide: This book opens up racial traits for all of the core races, basic archetypes, a few classes (I would keep the Summoner banned), and some additional items, spells and feats. This book to me always seems to be an addendum to the care rulebook that contained everything they probably had to cut (from a 500 page book).
Inner Sea World Guide: This is all the fluff you need all in one place. A few extra prestige classes and feats (Hellknights). Nothing too broken other then Dervish Dance. This book solves the language problem.
Pathfinder Society Field Guild: So we're going to have people earning prestige with pretty much nothing to spend it on. The same could almost be said about the primer. The characters are Pathfinders, right?

-If there isn't additional books added to this (at this point I would maybe rename it from CORE to BASIC) there needs to be some kind of addendum added to address at least the language issue. Otherwise, you're gonna have players at a serious disadvantage in some scenarios where you have to be able to speak other languages. I shouldn't need a damn boon to speak/read a commonly available language.

I remember a few months ago there was an interview published with Eric Mona asking him what the Paizo response to D&D 5 edition was. To sum up his answer, it seems to be the Advanced Class Guide and the Iron Gods AP. I wonder how this fits into that. It seems something has gone sideways since then.

This does nothing to truly solve the replay issue. At best it is a Band-Aid on a gapping chest wound.

I am a person who maintained a number of subscriptions and spent lots of money with Paizo. I have an issue with replay of scenarios. They offer me a limited solution that makes me have to create new characters. I do not want to have to create new characters, I want to continue to play the existing characters I have (I have 12).

I understand why they are doing this to try and make it easier to get new players into the game (and thus make more money) but it does nothing to solve my problem.

I am not asking for infinite replay because that is a unrealistic request. Even something as simple as saying you can reply a scenario 2 to 3 (4 might really be pushing it to much) on a group of characters (not on the same) would go a LONG way to relieving the frustration I feel about playing PFS in general and get me back to playing.

Until then I am going to go ahead and cancel all of my subscriptions and step away from PFS. If there is something from Paizo I want to buy going forward I will just purchase it individually. So my take away from this is I now get to save some money.

WOW......

Now I fear going to sleep tonight, 'cause when I wake up this is all going to be a dream....

woke up early.... and had to come check.

...still wow.....

At the end of the day, each area will determine whether or not Core works for them. If it doesn't, don't run it, or run very limited numbers of it. Core is an option for gaming areas to use if they wish - regular PFS is still there.

Maybe it will divide the player base in an area, maybe it won't. In the end, if it doesn't work for your area, don't run Core.

We'll try it in Central Indiana. If it doesn't work, I won't continue it. I think it will have some value here - it will help break in new GMs (I have people who would GM but they find all of the options too much to try to digest, no matter how much I tell them they don't need to know it all), give some players a chance at more replays (and some who want to push a given build to the extreme to take on older scenarios which may become more difficult as a result), and it will help GMs like me, who are more of "teaching GMs", a more enjoyable gaming experience as I will have far less to manage.

And if those assumed advantages don't materialize, and if after an honest effort, it ends up hurting PFS play here, we will stop.

My guess is that it will have some success, and that might be enough to have a single Core table or two each week, but it'll be a bit before I schedule one until I can look at our overall schedule. I can't just drop Core into my existing schedule without some disruption.

But, I will be interested to see how well it works elsewhere!

Faunra Eveningstar wrote:

rknop wrote:

Faunra Eveningstar wrote:

I already have enough problems convincing vets to run older scenarios. This will make it unlikely I'll get to play older season scenarios in regular mode.

Huh... I'm kind of surprised by that. I enjoy running some of the older season scenarios. Also, in the various places I go (right now, the Pittsburgh area, albeit it's just a couple of gamedays I've been to), and online, there's a heavy presence of older scenarios.

They have no motivation to run them as they have already run and played most of them and can't get credit. Now they might be motivated to run them, but in the core system. I paid a lot of money for these books, and want to use them.

Luckily, we are still releasing two new scenarios every month, as well as sanctioning new modules and APs, so you will still get plenty of use out of those books!

I haven't seen any of the older APs sanctioned in a long time. Are you still working on that? When might we see some more of them sanctioned?

Just confirming the last point in the blog, our stars count per game no matter whether we run Pathfinder Society Organized Play or Pathfinder Society Core Campaign.

Does it change the reporting? and also on some scenarios you select A,B,C,D on completion. So which of the two campaigns effects the overall story arc? or do they both?

Can you also create a difference document or cheatsheet for GM's so if we are running across two different rulesets/options we can quickly get up to speed?

For the GM Stars Boon (once I get my 5th, may open a spell for my PC's) is this limited to either Core or Organised or is it available to across both streams?

Well, I decided to get excited about this instead of angry.

"How can I break the Core?" has been a very fun thought experiment.

So I have a series of questions concerning this new campaign.

It's mentioned that items become legal if they are printed on a chronicle sheet, so long as you can provide the source.

Let's say that a character gains access to a non-core weapon, for this example, let's say it's a Pistol.

1. Can the character gain the Exotic Weapon Proficiency required for the weapon? Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a core feat, but how it interacts with many weapons, especially firearms, is not core. This question would obviously extend to feats like Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and the like as well.

2. Would the character be able to purchase the required ammunition and other non-magical resources required for the weapon (note that for a firearm this normally requires the feat Gunsmithing)?

3. If the weapon on the chronicle is, for example, a +2 Distance Pistol, can a non-magical, non-masterwork version of the weapon be purchased, or must the exact weapon, as written on the chronicle, be purchased? Additionally, can the weapon be upgraded?

4. Expanding upon the first question, would the character be able to take Rapid Reload (Pistol), or is a Core Only character stuck with only crossbows for Rapid Reload?

You know what, I'm actually going to answer some of the concerns. As a VL I've had the opportunity to talk this over for some time and a lot of your issues are ones we raised as well. With several weeks to mull it over, here's my thinking:

-This is going to divide the community as previously mentioned. It will cause problems for smaller player communities.

-Many of the same people that have played almost everything will likely be back in the same place a couple of years from now. I have always maintained that replay needs to be opened up by a trickle, not a deluge.

-You're going to have your most dedicated players with little or no reason to buy anything new if they go all CORE.

-. . .this change will likely produce two types of CORE players 1)new people and 2) very experienced players that some may have issues with the first group for not pulling their weight. . .

-One of the cited goals was to make chronicle sheets viable again. . . Being more serious though, you're going to see a lot more emphasis on the more recent seasons. . .

-I get the idea of CORE but I find it slightly too limiting. In addition to the core rulebook this is what I would suggest:

I'm not sure what all the backlash is about.

As I understand the rules, if you want to do a non-core character and have played every adventure already there is a solution.

Go through The Confirmation in CORE Only. Get your 1 XP.

Now convert that character to non-core. It can still replay any scenario because it started as CORE Only. Since it is still first level, you are allowed to do a full rebuild.

Seems simple and within the rules. Please advise if I've got something wrong.

If this works as expected, I expect many Confirmation runs in the short term to be converted to CORE Only.

So I have a series of questions concerning this new campaign.

It's mentioned that items become legal if they are printed on a chronicle sheet, so long as you can provide the source.

Let's say that a character gains access to a non-core weapon, for this example, let's say it's a Pistol.

1. Can the character gain the Exotic Weapon Proficiency required for the weapon? Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a core feat, but how it interacts with many weapons, especially firearms, is not core. This question would obviously extend to feats like Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and the like as well.

2. Would the character be able to purchase the required ammunition and other non-magical resources required for the weapon (note that for a firearm this normally requires the feat Gunsmithing)?

3. If the weapon on the chronicle is, for example, a +2 Distance Pistol, can a non-magical, non-masterwork version of the weapon be purchased, or must the exact weapon, as written on the chronicle, be purchased? Additionally, can the weapon be upgraded?

4. Expanding upon the first question, would the character be able to take Rapid Reload (Pistol), or is a Core Only character stuck with only crossbows for Rapid Reload?

Expanding on that question, can charactes with some of the early season 6 chronicles buy laser pistols and use them without requiring the technologist feat, can they identify robots ?

1. Can the character gain the Exotic Weapon Proficiency required for the weapon? Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a core feat, but how it interacts with many weapons, especially firearms, is not core. This question would obviously extend to feats like Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and the like as well.

Those feats put no limitations on what weapons you can use them with. As long as you have legal access to a weapon, you can take feats for it. For example, if you find a Katana, you can take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana.

2. Would the character be able to purchase the required ammunition and other non-magical resources required for the weapon (note that for a firearm this normally requires the feat Gunsmithing)?

I think this is going to be a big limiter for guns. I'm personally A-OK with that interaction making guns completely out of bounds, but that is a Paizo question.

3. If the weapon on the chronicle is, for example, a +2 Distance Pistol, can a non-magical, non-masterwork version of the weapon be purchased, or must the exact weapon, as written on the chronicle, be purchased? Additionally, can the weapon be upgraded?

If you find a +1 disrupting triple-headed warhammer (with stat block) on a chronicle now, can you buy a non-magical, non-masterwork version? No, so the same would apply to items found on CORE chronicles. You can upgrade as normal, you just can only add properties allowed under CORE rules.

4. Expanding upon the first question, would the character be able to take Rapid Reload (Pistol), or is a Core Only character stuck with only crossbows for Rapid Reload?

Good question. As above I think you are going to see this combination of limiters (plus the drive for simplification) make guns not a feasible option even if one appears on a chronicle.

I've seen many people comment that CORE play will reduce Paizo's book sales. Others have pointed out one or two of these points, but I'd like to reiterate a few of these:

1. Some of us weren't able to regularly play PFS any more. Few people want to buy material for games they don't play. Now we can play again.

2. Some of us bought books for reasons OTHER than "Hey, here's a cool rule / feat / talent / archetype!" I love the Golarion setting. I gave precedence to the resources that I needed to run or play something, but I also did things like bought non-PFS modules to have maps of places like Bloodcove (only to find that map later revised, LOL).

3. For those of us who also like to GM and buy our own scenarios, we can now apply chronicle sheets to two different characters... That might encourage more GMs to buy more modules, etc?

4. New players will want to buy books just to know what's going on (this is kinda covered in #2).

I cannot help but think that supporting this is a bad idea as a player

Okay. So don't.

I'm not sure what all the backlash is about.

As I understand the rules, if you want to do a non-core character and have played every adventure already there is a solution.

Go through The Confirmation in CORE Only. Get your 1 XP.

Now convert that character to non-core. It can still replay any scenario because it started as CORE Only. Since it is still first level, you are allowed to do a full rebuild.

Seems simple and within the rules. Please advise if I've got something wrong.

If this works as expected, I expect many Confirmation runs in the short term to be converted to CORE Only.

Once you play a non-core scenario (outside the CORE ruleset) you are NOT a Core character. You are NOT playing in the CORE campaign, therefore you can only play scenarios you haven't already played in Standard.

Danbala wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Danbala wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

Danbala wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

David Neilson wrote:

One question is will you need to have a group all playing in one mode or the other?

They all have to play either Core or existing mode.

If you have a "core compliant" character and you play it in a non core game, can you later use the character in a core game if it only progresses from Core sources?

That's been answered already: No, you can't.

What is the reasoning for this assuming that the character remains Core compliant following the non core game? It seems like an unnecessary barrier to play.

I've answered earlier but I will answer again. The reporting system is not set up to allow reporting of mixed tables. It also creates unnecessary confusion with characters flip flopping back and forth. I would rather avoid that confusion and have the "unnecessary barrier to play" than vice versa.

I apologize if I am causing you to repeat yourself. I read your blog to mean that tables must remain homogeneous. I didn't understand that taking a non-core chronicle sheet meant that you could never again take a core chronicle sheet. I take it then that the software won't permit a character to have both core and non core chronicle results.

Yes, it will permit a character to have both. However, it's a one way system. Once they take an existing mode Chronicle, the system will no longer recognize that character as a Core character and only as an existing mode character for the rest of that character's career.

I'm not sure what all the backlash is about.

As I understand the rules, if you want to do a non-core character and have played every adventure already there is a solution.

Go through The Confirmation in CORE Only. Get your 1 XP.

Now convert that character to non-core. It can still replay any scenario because it started as CORE Only. Since it is still first level, you are allowed to do a full rebuild.

Seems simple and within the rules. Please advise if I've got something wrong.

If this works as expected, I expect many Confirmation runs in the short term to be converted to CORE Only.

You can play scenarios once in CORE mode and once in NORMAL mode. If you take your CORE character and play him in NORMAL mode, he is now and forever a NORMAL character and plays with all such restrictions as if it started that way.

I love this idea and I look forward to getting into games as a player and as a GM. The only thing that I might be a bit concerned about is that there are various scenarios that have optimized themselves to be fairly challenging/dangerous and seem to be prepared to take on parties that have also optimized themselves from all the available books. Those scenarios might become exceptionally dangerous when dealing with simple core parties. Maybe this concern is invalid.

I think the ability to play Season 0-3 in CORE mode is awesome since those scenarios never anticipated the power-creep and abilities that newer parties took on. Too many scenarios became cakewalks. I think this idea will even the playing field for those scenarios.

I've seen many people comment that CORE play will reduce Paizo's book sales.

Because only people who play PFS buy the new books?

I think the ability to play Season 0-3 in CORE mode is awesome since those scenarios never anticipated the power-creep and abilities that newer parties took on. Too many scenarios became cakewalks. I think this idea will even the playing field for those scenarios.

This is one of my favorite bits of the Core campaign.

Poimandres wrote:

I've seen many people comment that CORE play will reduce Paizo's book sales.

Because only people who play PFS buy the new books?

Prethen wrote:

I think the ability to play Season 0-3 in CORE mode is awesome since those scenarios never anticipated the power-creep and abilities that newer parties took on. Too many scenarios became cakewalks. I think this idea will even the playing field for those scenarios.

This is one of my favorite bits of the Core campaign.

I can attest that a spend an pretty substantial amount on pdfs so I would not have to move several of my hardcovers. That would not have happened without PFS, since I prefer to use the PRD or d20pfsrd.com while I am at home (where I am used to run all my Pathfinder games).

Philderbeast wrote:

Please please please please let core characters sit at the same table as non-core characters without losing there core only status.

I disagree. Reporting is not the driving issue here.

Really? Because Mike Brock has repeatedly responded to that topic by referencing the reporting system's inability to do a mixed game. That kinda gave me the impression that it is the "driving issue".

If a player with a CORE character is sitting at a mixed table, s/he gets to benefit directly or indirectly from non-CORE content through their interactions with the non-CORE characters at the table. That is not what CORE is about.

Okay, then what is Core "about", that gets interfered with by being on a team with a non-Core PC?

Poimandres wrote:

I've seen many people comment that CORE play will reduce Paizo's book sales.

Because only people who play PFS buy the new books?

No, but I'm guessing that a large portion of PFS classic players do. As you can see, I am a subscriber to several lines. The vast majority of my gaming is done at local PFS events. I have been trying to start a home game, but schedules are hard to work with, and PFS allows for regular gaming without the hassle of trying to herd kittens to my house once a week.

If my local chapter converts to mostly core campaign mode, there is far less incentive for me to spend between $50-$100 monthly for items I can not use in my primary source of gaming.

I'm giving this some time to see how it pans out, but if my fears come to pass, then I will be canceling my subscriptions.

And then maybe he hits that player with a fish. Maybe.

This is why we have a LARP fish present at the store :P

...I'm realizing that there is one thing in Ultimate Equipment that I really wish was in the CRB. And that is: the journal.

It seems to me every Pathfinder ought to have one of those. I usually equip all of my characters with one. But, alas, it's not in the CRB, so....

Maybe this, like the Wayfinder, could go into the next Guide to Organized Play?

A suggestion: allow something similar but let shops, events, home groups, etc. agree to a set of resources and play offshoot campaigns around those resources as well. I find the appeal in a core-only campaign. However, the choice between that and everything is rather drastic. The paradigm of choice is good. Expand upon it.

A suggestion: allow something similar but let shops, events, home groups, etc. agree to a set of resources and play offshoot campaigns around those resources as well. I find the appeal in a core-only campaign. However, the choice between that and everything is rather drastic. The paradigm of choice is good. Expand upon it.

I don't know how to say this without sounding flippant or sarcastic:

That's always been an option. We call it a "home game."

Core only does not stop Druids with pets + summons.

Though the feats/spells/items that make them better than base will not be present. The dip to other classes can never be made up - no boon comp.

Core only does not stop barbarians from murdering everything..

but some of the more egregious rage cycling will not be possible.

Core only does not stop wizards from being able to completely shut down any encounter.

but lack of magical lineage and wayang spell hunter and some other traits and feats make them actually work at it a little more.

Core only dos note stop ranged combat from being the most powerful martial option.

though the hyper-ranged characters are out, and some feats like clustered shots, disrupting shots are not present. You will again see readied actions to interrupt.

I don't know how to say this without sounding flippant or sarcastic:

That's always been an option. We call it a "home game."

** spoiler omitted **

Why, exactly, did you reply as you did?

"How can I break the Core?" has been a very fun thought experiment.

This, right here, is why PFS players and GMs drift away from the game abandon public Organized Play for private PFS or home games. Not just because of complexity, or cost, or availability, but because a small group of players see the game as being "how do I break it".

As pointed out, Core Campaign won't weed out players with intentions to ruin the game for others. Only GMs and Coordinators can do that. And they should. This will make the biggest positive impact on your local Lodge, and it is something that is totally out of Paizo's hands.

So as not to wall-of-text this discussion...

Again, not saying the sky is falling, but I'm a store organizer and not a VO. I know that Mike said that this has been discussed amongst to the VO's and I'm assuming that this HAD to have come up at some point. The VO's sign NDA's, so I can't ask them about it in good conscience. So I'm curious what I can do to spin this and minimize drama for my sign ups for the four games a month I organize.
While my store is currently very pro-PFS, I really don't want that to change and I've spoken with too many stores that were alienated by Paizo (or worse WizKids' contract with Alliance which means they have difficulty carrying the prepainted PF figs) to want to add my store to that list.

As always, though, I do want to thank Mike, John, et. all for their patience and willingness to listen to feedback. Especially the less than positive feedback.

-TimD

P.S. also want to throw a "thank you" out to Drogon - I know you have a store, so knowing that you view this as a positive change is encouraging

Kevin Willis wrote:

I don't know how to say this without sounding flippant or sarcastic:

That's always been an option. We call it a "home game."

** spoiler omitted **

Why, exactly, did you reply as you did?

Because if I hadn't put the first sentence there it would have come off as being a smart-ass instead of trying to convey information. The problems of the internet.

So as not to wall-of-text this discussion...

** spoiler omitted **

Nothing compels you to tell them anything. The full PFS campaign is still a thing. This only remotely becomes an issue if you think your store and group are particularly inclined for core-only play.

If someone shows up to a Core game with an expanded character, that doesn't throw everything into disarray and cause the organizer to possibly change the game, screwing over the Core-only players. No. Instead, the organizer can nicely say, "Well you screwed up, and your character is not valid here. Get out a Core character, or play a pre-gen. And learn to pay attention to the 'CORE ONLY' headline next time."

Most players I've talked to said they just wouldn't come back if turned away from a game because of that but a better question is what happens when 4/6 are non CC characters? Do you just not play?

This, right here, is why PFS players and GMs drift away from the game. Not just because of complexity, or cost, or availability, but because a small group of players see the game as being "how do I break it".

The problem is that GM's don't like players winning and often refuse to increase system mastery to make it closer. More importantly these GM's seem to have problems with the players winning.

As pointed out, Core Campaign won't weed out players with intentions to ruin the game for others. Only GMs and Coordinators can do that. And they should. This will make the biggest positive impact on your local Lodge, and it is something that is totally out of Paizo's hands.

The problem is you assume the worst of players who like to optimize. They aren't out to ruin the game. Just like in real life they find the best options and the shortest route to victory they can afford. If wearing no armor and swinging a greatsword for the fences.

The real problem is GM's actually believe the bolded part of people who optimize.

The real problem is GM's actually believe the bolded part of people who optimize.

As a class, sure. However, those players do exist, and they take up a not insignificant amount of time to manage even when they are few.

Quote:

"How can I break the Core?" has been a very fun thought experiment.

This, right here, is why PFS players and GMs drift away from the game abandon public Organized Play for private PFS or home games. Not just because of complexity, or cost, or availability, but because a small group of players see the game as being "how do I break it".

As pointed out, Core Campaign won't weed out players with intentions to ruin the game for others. Only GMs and Coordinators can do that. And they should. This will make the biggest positive impact on your local Lodge, and it is something that is totally out of Paizo's hands.

A bad attitude is definitely one thing that can drive players away.

-TimD

[

The real problem is GM's actually believe the bolded part of people who optimize.

What are they supposed to believe when somebody says they want to "break the game"?

Undone wrote:

[

The real problem is GM's actually believe the bolded part of people who optimize.

What are they supposed to believe when somebody says they want to "break the game"?

Perhaps that that single individual might do something disruptive, rather than attributing that attitude to a whole category of people who have no interest in such a goal?