Meet the Iconics: Jirelle

Interesting as everything is a point of view. As a brazilian, i can only think how Jirelle can adventure without fainting from a heatstroke. All adventures seem overdressed for any climate i have been in my life (i never seen snow).
Another curious note is that Seoni dress is still scandalous even for our standards.

She's okay. I like the non-revealing armor.

Not my favorite type of character (I prefer the more heavily armored beatsticks when it comes to melee), but I really like her background and her look.

Also, I saw that she was one of the iconics presented in the Free RPG Day module coming out in a little less than 30 days. If the Slayer isn't one of them, I think that will be a missed opportunity. Of course, that's just based on images floating around of what appears to be a Kelleshite (probably mangled that word) male who looks like he would be the slayer iconic.

My guess is the Warpriest will be next week.

It's not like one iconic slipped by the cracks somehow. It’s even harder to not think that having sexualized women in the setting's artwork isn’t as least somewhat intentional given how progressive Paizo is as a company and tends to actually think about issues like this where others don’t. Not that I think there is never a place for stuff like that in Golarion or fantasy artwork, because sometimes there is, especially if done in moderation and where it makes sense in setting, but I can’t buy any notion that would say it’s not an intentional strategy Paizo has.

You'd be surprised how often an art description that reads something like, "dark-haired female half-elf, dressed in fur-lined cape and other practical clothing for wintry climate" comes back bare-legged and cleavage-window-y.

Sometimes -- generally when it's both pretty egregious, and the product isn't already super-crunched for time -- there's time to request changes.

But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly. Quite the opposite, actually.

Just wanna pop in here and say I love this art. Best looking iconic I've seen so far.

Am I the only one who is slightly reminded of the Matador from SMT: Nocturne with this image? Cause that cloak is looking remarkably like a matador's cape.

Menacing Swordplay + Matador's Cloak = Profit?

To be honest, I totally wouldn't mind if Golarion were a space where outfits like Seoni's and mythic Seltyiels/Valeros were par-de-course. ^^

I quite like mythic Valeros. He's channeling his inner Conan, or perhaps John Carter. Mythic Kyra as well - we could do with more trenchcoat clerics.

I'm intimidated by mythic Ezren. He's the old, scholar, wimpy dude, and yet look at him: he's pumped. Biceps of steel.

I'm intimidated by mythic Ezren. He's the old, scholar, wimpy dude, and yet look at him: he's pumped. Biceps of steel.

I'm glad that Ezren turned into a Muscle Wizard. I can't imagine anyone, even a scholar, not bulking up a bit after doing as much adventuring as it takes to get to Mythic level.

rknop wrote:

I'm intimidated by mythic Ezren. He's the old, scholar, wimpy dude, and yet look at him: he's pumped. Biceps of steel.

I'm glad that Ezren turned into a Muscle Wizard. I can't imagine anyone, even a scholar, not bulking up a bit after doing as much adventuring as it takes to get to Mythic level.

Dead link.

Suma3da wrote:

rknop wrote:

I'm intimidated by mythic Ezren. He's the old, scholar, wimpy dude, and yet look at him: he's pumped. Biceps of steel.

I'm glad that Ezren turned into a Muscle Wizard. I can't imagine anyone, even a scholar, not bulking up a bit after doing as much adventuring as it takes to get to Mythic level.

Dead link.

Kay, swapped out the link.

Good depiction and story. Looking forward to the rest.

Hmm, and another righty. No love for us lefties in the martial classes so far. :-)

"Then why are you smiling?"

"Because I know something you don't know."

But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly. Quite the opposite, actually.

And it's really appreciated, at least by our group.

Perhaps more on point, the diversity is really appreciated. Because the men in our group pretend to be like Ezren, Kyra, and Sajan. And the women in our group pretend to be like Damiel, Feiya, Harsk, Seoni, and our new friend here.

Although having Seoni on things has made me a little uncomfortable before, I'm not going to be the one to tell people "No, you can't pretend to be an attractive woman in revealing garments! I can pretend to be a wizard, but you sexually desirable? Pshaw!"

So, thanks for the mix. Because sometimes the conservatively dressed woman speaks to me and other times... it's the cut, shirtless dude.

Cheers!
Landon

Good depiction and story. Looking forward to the rest.

Hmm, and another righty. No love for us lefties in the martial classes so far. :-)

Word of God says consider all the iconics to be ambidextrous, because artwork will likely get flipped to make such things inconsistent anyway.

sowhereaminow wrote:

Good depiction and story. Looking forward to the rest.

Hmm, and another righty. No love for us lefties in the martial classes so far. :-)

Word of God says consider all the iconics to be ambidextrous, because artwork will likely get flipped to make such things inconsistent anyway.

This.

Art sometimes has to mirror/flip NPC illustrations in order to make them fit nicely on the page and interact better with the text flow. As a result, we never never ever say in print if a character is right handed or left handed.

It's tough enough when you get a character like Ameiko who has an asymmetrical design (a tattoo on one shoulder), so that if her artwork gets flipped on the cover you have to scramble for the rest of your life to make sure that all future illustrations match. Doing that for every NPC? No thanks! Ambidexterity for everyone!

Shisumo wrote:

sowhereaminow wrote:

Good depiction and story. Looking forward to the rest.

Hmm, and another righty. No love for us lefties in the martial classes so far. :-)

Word of God says consider all the iconics to be ambidextrous, because artwork will likely get flipped to make such things inconsistent anyway.

This.

Art sometimes has to mirror/flip NPC illustrations in order to make them fit nicely on the page and interact better with the text flow. As a result, we never never ever say in print if a character is right handed or left handed.

It's tough enough when you get a character like Ameiko who has an asymmetrical design (a tattoo on one shoulder), so that if her artwork gets flipped on the cover you have to scramble for the rest of your life to make sure that all future illustrations match. Doing that for every NPC? No thanks! Ambidexterity for everyone!

I think ambidexterity is highly appropriate for swashbuckling...

Inigo: I admit it: you are better than I am!
Man in Black: Then why are you smiling?
Inigo: Because I know something you don't know.
Man in Black: And what is that?
Inigo: I am not left handed! [Switches the sword to his right hand and starts driving him back]
— The Princess Bride

Since Pathfinder doesn't have rules for handedness, everybody can be ambidextrous! Oh, yeah, you have to declare a "main" and "off" hand if you're doing a two-weapon attack, but you can always switch what you declare every combat....

Jessica, does Pazio have contract female artists? If you found some good female artists I think the problem of semi clad female character drawings would go away. After all male fantasy artists pen female art drawings as their as their idealized minds see females in a Fantasy setting.

BTW the new Swashbuckler female Iconic is awesome.

Sue me for wanting to be the one to reveal information about our iconics first on Paizo.com rather than in the form of blurry internet photos, I guess! :-P

You mean the iconic that was revealed in a blurry cell phone photo from a sales presentation held over a month ago, James? ;)

All this also hasn't taken into account how much the ten new iconics might add to the above when they come out.

Yes.

Jessica, does Pazio have contract female artists? If you found some good female artists I think the problem of semi clad female character drawings would go away. After all male fantasy artists pen female art drawings as their as their idealized minds see females in a Fantasy setting.

BTW the new Swashbuckler female Iconic is awesome.

We use a ton of female artists. It helps, but it doesn't necessarily solve the issue, which is cultural.

This looks a bit too renaissance style too me, even for a pirate.
Hope this is not a bad omen for the future, since the class seemed pretty good so far. Like in the sense that we don´t see a shift to too much renaissance stuff ingame.

Cleverly dressed women that emitt personality are indefinately more appealing than too revealing ones. That said, fantasy is fantasy and there is a reason it´s not called puritanism reenactment. I would surely not mind if it stays that way.

Also if you wanna go for realistic armor, then please go there regardless of gender. Meaning no WoW shoulderpads, Lord of the rings grotesque oversize spikes or giant gloves. Consistency adds very much to creditability.

D&D was always tied closer to the Rennaissance than the Middle Ages. Prevalence of crossbows, rapiers and in Pathfinder alchemists, swashbucklers and gunslingers shows that.

This looks a bit too renaissance style too me, even for a pirate.

Hope this is not a bad omen for the future, since the class seemed pretty good so far. Like in the sense that we don´t see a shift to too much renaissance stuff ingame.

Considering that Jirelle hangs around Taldor I'd say the style is pretty appropriate. Taldor tends to be a hodgepodge blending of western European countries like Italy and France

It's tough enough when you get a character like Ameiko who has an asymmetrical design (a tattoo on one shoulder), so that if her artwork gets flipped on the cover you have to scramble for the rest of your life to make sure that all future illustrations match.

Ameiko's tattoo was originally on her right arm/shoulder?

Would that make some tattoos (except for Seoni's, perhaps, which are symmetrical or "fudge-able") something that you prefer to not have on Iconics if possible, since it makes for difficulties with flipping art in the future?

Cleverly dressed women that emitt personality are indefinately more appealing than too revealing ones.

In the tone of Inigo just above, I do not think that means what you think it means.

Considering that Jirelle hangs around Taldor I'd say the style is pretty appropriate. Taldor tends to be a hodgepodge blending of western European countries like Italy and France

Byzantine Empire feels closer to me, with Qadira/Kelesh as the Ottoman Empire.

Hayato Ken wrote:

Cleverly dressed women that emitt personality are indefinately more appealing than too revealing ones.

In the tone of Inigo just above, I do not think that means what you think it means.

To be fair, 'definitely' and 'defiantly' are amongst the most misspelled words I see online, partially, I think, due to autocorrect or spell check. I read a lot of online fiction, short stories and fanfiction and nearly every time I come across an instance calling for a variation of the word definitely, it is, more often than naught, misspelled defiantly. Even in heavily beta read and edited works (including published works as well) is it misspelled.

Awkward. Of course i meant indefinitely.

Jessica, does Pazio have contract female artists? If you found some good female artists I think the problem of semi clad female character drawings would go away. After all male fantasy artists pen female art drawings as their as their idealized minds see females in a Fantasy setting.

BTW the new Swashbuckler female Iconic is awesome.

Not everyone hates attractive women and men in fantasy art. I'm not saying everything has to hang out all over the place but I don't think making everyone look average and covering them head to toe in armor or clothes is something everyone wants either. Can't we find a nice middle ground?

Aaron -- no one's trying to cover up every last female character, and I have yet to see anyone actually advocate for doing that.

What we do try to do is show a range of female (and male) characters, from those for whom their sexuality is a primary part of how they present themselves, to those for whom it's either very private or just not something they're interested in making an obvious part of their self presentation. We also try to make sure that characters are clothed in ways that are plausible for what they're doing and what organizations/nations/etc. they represent. A Mendevian crusader isn't going to show up in a battle bikini, and a back alley thug probably isn't interested in flashing her cleavage at you. VWhereas a noblewoman who doesn't have to do anything particularly strenuous might be wearing a pretty elaborate outfit that highlights her body, and a cleric of Calistria is probably going to be dressed in ways that are designed to evoke desire.

Some women just aren't interested in anyone's opinions of their looks. Some women aren't interested in anyone's opinions of their looks while they're trying to do their job and would prefer that their looks not be something that comes up while they're working but enjoy dressing up and like to feel pretty for social occasions. Some women very consciously cultivate a businesslike appearance that de-emphasizes their bodies.

Those women have a place in Golarion along with the ones who revel in being attractive women, or use their sexuality as a tool, or have other reasons for dressing up, or dressing revealingly.

Showing a range of female characters isn't about "hating attractive women" -- it's about acknowledging that women have more roles and value in Golarion than just their looks.

I agree with everything you've just said. What worries me a little is a trend I keep seeing about the demonizing of attractive characters, and I'm not talking about just the ones that have the bikini armor. Attractive, at least based on some posts both here and on other forums, is somehow now a bad thing. Even an attractive face is problematic now to some. I do understand that not everyone feels this way but this is a trend I'm definitely not a fan of. I'm not saying every character has to be a supermodel or even all that attractive, but I do like a little moderation on both sides and hope this doesn't lean too heavily one way or another.

Attractive, at least based on some posts both here and on other forums, is somehow now a bad thing.

I think more of an issue than just pretty people is that some of the iconics (and other NPCs in APs) have backstories that involve grueling hardships and privation and torture, and then, in the artwork, they look like they are strutting down a catwalk after six hours of having their hair and makeup did.

If the backstory is 'drop dead gorgeous, and spends top coin on enchantments and cosmetics to ensure that,' and they look like Feiya, then, cool beans. If the backstory is 'raised by spite-ruled hags who took turns beating and starving her,' then there's something of a disconnect between text and art.

If all the iconics are four-alarm babes, I'm good with that. But their backstories should dial down the hardships and malnutrition and abuse, and dial up the 'life of privilege' or 'easy access to healing magic / transformative elixirs allow pristine skin' or something.

I agree that that's the issue...but disagree a fair bit with it's legitimacy. So far, everyone who it's been applied to is a spellcaster. With prestidigitation. That means they really can look like they got off the catwalk with a few minutes prep, IMO.

And a childhood of privation doesn't make one necessarily unattractive or abused-looking in adulthood. Short? Probably. Unattractive? Not necessarily.

Aaron Scott 139 wrote:

Attractive, at least based on some posts both here and on other forums, is somehow now a bad thing.

I think more of an issue than just pretty people is that some of the iconics (and other NPCs in APs) have backstories that involve grueling hardships and privation and torture, and then, in the artwork, they look like they are strutting down a catwalk after six hours of having their hair and makeup did.

If the backstory is 'drop dead gorgeous, and spends top coin on enchantments and cosmetics to ensure that,' and they look like Feiya, then, cool beans. If the backstory is 'raised by spite-ruled hags who took turns beating and starving her,' then there's something of a disconnect between text and art.

If all the iconics are four-alarm babes, I'm good with that. But their backstories should dial down the hardships and malnutrition and abuse, and dial up the 'life of privilege' or 'easy access to healing magic / transformative elixirs allow pristine skin' or something.

Tangent, but...

I was just having a conversation with Wes on Friday about how maybe it's time for an iconic whose parents are A) living, and B) not horrible.

Conflict is definitely important for storytelling, and I get that a rough upbringing is a logical impetus to become an adventure, but not everyone needs to be an orphan or abused runaway. This isn't Disney.

Amen to that. If I had a nickel for every backstory that involved being an orphan or an outcast...

...well I'd be able to buy dinner tonight at least. :D

Tangent, but...

I was just having a conversation with Wes on Friday about how maybe it's time for an iconic whose parents are A) living, and B) not horrible.

Conflict is definitely important for storytelling, and I get that a rough upbringing is a logical impetus to become an adventure, but not everyone needs to be an orphan or abused runaway. This isn't Disney.

What about Valeros? As I recall his parents wanted him to take over the farm but that's about it. They're horrible? Or are they secretly undead?

Jessica Price wrote:

Tangent, but...

I was just having a conversation with Wes on Friday about how maybe it's time for an iconic whose parents are A) living, and B) not horrible.

Conflict is definitely important for storytelling, and I get that a rough upbringing is a logical impetus to become an adventure, but not everyone needs to be an orphan or abused runaway. This isn't Disney.

What about Valeros? As I recall his parents wanted him to take over the farm but that's about it. They're horrible? Or are they secretly undead?

Worse they are completely normal and boring, they don't even drink! :P

they don't even drink! :P

From Valeros' point of view, that *is* pretty horrible.

What worries me a little is a trend I keep seeing about the demonizing of attractive characters, and I'm not talking about just the ones that have the bikini armor. Attractive, at least based on some posts both here and on other forums, is somehow now a bad thing. Even an attractive face is problematic now to some.

Really, maybe I'm just not reading the threads you are? Or maybe they're mostly on other forums?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find much of that on Paizo.

Thing is...

People with well-adjusted, comfortable, worry-free lives are generally not the ones, in my opinion, who become adventurers. Adventuring is a dirty, tough, dangerous job, and you kinda have to be at least a little bit crazy in order to want to be one of them.

Sure, but the thing that makes you not comfortable and well-adjusted can happen during adulthood. It doesn't have to be orphanhood or childhood abuse. :-)

I agree that that's the issue... but disagree a fair bit with it's legitimacy. So far, everyone who it's been applied to is a spellcaster. With prestidigitation. That means they really can look like they got off the catwalk with a few minutes prep, IMO.

As I specifically mentioned only Feiya, who, as a Witch, doesn't have prestidigitation on her spell list, my opinion differs from yours.

That said, she could gain access to it myriad ways, the easiest being the Varisian Trifler trait, IIRC, but that's hardly 'iconic.'

That's also true... but we have to assume the iconics' stories lead them to the place where they are when they become adventurers at 1st level, which really kinda skews their backstories into the childhood part of their lives.

There's exceptions though. Ezren, for example, didn't run into his problems until well into adulthood.

Maybe I'm not recalling her back story correctly, but Lirianne's father is alive and well isn't he? And not horrible? I just thought of him as being over protective and not understanding that his daughter is perfectly capable of looking after herself. Which, while an outdated view, isn't exactly child abuse.

Aaron Scott 139 wrote:

What worries me a little is a trend I keep seeing about the demonizing of attractive characters, and I'm not talking about just the ones that have the bikini armor. Attractive, at least based on some posts both here and on other forums, is somehow now a bad thing. Even an attractive face is problematic now to some.

Really, maybe I'm just not reading the threads you are? Or maybe they're mostly on other forums?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find much of that on Paizo.

At the very least there is a vocal section of people who seem really hypersensitive to the issue of exposed female skin and are demanding of Paizo to get on already with covering up Seoni.

GeraintElberion wrote:

Aaron Scott 139 wrote:

What worries me a little is a trend I keep seeing about the demonizing of attractive characters, and I'm not talking about just the ones that have the bikini armor. Attractive, at least based on some posts both here and on other forums, is somehow now a bad thing. Even an attractive face is problematic now to some.

Really, maybe I'm just not reading the threads you are? Or maybe they're mostly on other forums?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find much of that on Paizo.

At the very least there is a vocal section of people who seem really hypersensitive to the issue of exposed female skin and are demanding of Paizo to get on already with covering up Seoni.

I don't think their issue is exposed female skin per se -- I think their issue is whether Seoni's costume makes sense for Seoni's personality, and whether one of the female characters who gets the most visual airtime should be one of the characters with the most extreme outfits. I personally see arguments on both sides there (I'm personally fairly indifferent on that particular issue), but I don't think it's as simple as objecting to any exposed skin on a woman.

As I specifically mentioned only Feiya, who, as a Witch, doesn't have prestidigitation on her spell list, my opinion differs from yours.

That said, she could gain access to it myriad ways, the easiest being the Varisian Trifler trait, IIRC, but that's hardly 'iconic.'

Huh. You're right, I was mis-remembering. Still, the point about people who were mistreated as children being able to be attractive stands.

I don't think their issue is exposed female skin per se -- I think their issue is whether Seoni's costume makes sense for Seoni's personality, and whether one of the female characters who gets the most visual airtime should be one of the characters with the most extreme outfits. I personally see arguments on both sides there (I'm personally fairly indifferent on that particular issue), but I don't think it's as simple as objecting to any exposed skin on a woman.

Well, I find both Seoni and Jirelle very good looking and they are basically polar opposites in terms of exposed skin.

In any case, I find it irksome when people try to take out the sexy for both genders, because such puritanical views are very 20th (and earlier) century to me.

But there seems to be a definite "cover up the females already!" tone to the complaints. Seltyiel is a male example of a character with lots of exposed skin and I don't see people lining up to complain about him.

I think on the Issue of clothing on character art, the Idea is not to clothe more of the body, but to make the outfit practical and stylish. to have each suit not just be a functional one but also styled to the character's own fashion sense.

so while the chainmail bikini won't work due mostly to impracticality, having a suit of armor that does the job of protection but also allows for style I think is what developers are looking for from artists.

Ex. Jirelle has armor that is both practical and stylish while Seoni's clothes while can be scandalous are in fact functional for an arcane caster with the need of freedom of movement.

Pet Peve: When the breastplate on a female character is shaped for each individual breast instead of a single modification for the bust area. >:(