Ratfolk and Catfolk and Race Boons Oh My

Dude, you're waving in the breeze with full on neon lights.

The fact is someone may have a concept that only works or works better with a certain race, and they want to play it. You have no place telling them that their role play sucks because thats the idea they want to go with.

That was a pretty bad piece of selective quoting; the rest of the post made it clear he was posting in response to a forceful post advocating the opposite (and accusing opponents of being afraid and xenophobic).

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Dude, you're waving in the breeze with full on neon lights.

The fact is someone may have a concept that only works or works better with a certain race, and they want to play it. You have no place telling them that their role play sucks because thats the idea they want to go with.

That was a pretty bad piece of selective quoting; the rest of the post made it clear he was posting in response to a forceful post advocating the opposite (and accusing opponents of being afraid and xenophobic).

and reading the rest of his post he said exactly what he said he wouldn't say.

Just the fact that you have to acquire some weird boon by doing a con or at random to play something unique and fun and have a more characterful choice besides a elf or a dwarf feels like a huge back step for me.

So what do you propose the race boons, that are used to reward those volunteering at PFS events (worldwide and online) for their time, be replaced with?

I'm not afraid of change, I just think that the current system works very well, and nobody has proposed a better solution.

So what do you propose the race boons, that are used to reward those volunteering at PFS events (worldwide and online) for their time, be replaced with?

The problem is they're a reward for volunteering at only one kind of pfs event: large multi day conventions and not small game days/weekly meetings. For the life of me I cannot see a distinction between the two that would warrant rewarding one but not the other.

It doesn't need to be an "or" thing, it could be an and thing. You do big conventions AND dm stars AND a lottery system for smaller game days or maybe 1 per one year anniversary, or make it a boon in a scenario (ie, ratfolk for rats of round mountain)

and reading the rest of his post he said exactly what he said he wouldn't say.

Except that's not quite what was posted...

This is not an attitude I will wave in anyone's face unless they tell me how sheltered and afraid I am of change or suggest I'm xenophobic because I feel this way.

That bolded condition was fulfilled, therefore he stated his position.

That bolded condition was fulfilled, therefore he stated his position.

The bolded condition is not an excuse to launch an insulting and completely unfounded attack on a totally unrelated aspect of a fellow players game.

The problem is they're a reward for volunteering at only one kind of pfs event: large multi day conventions and not small game days/weekly meetings. For the life of me I cannot see a distinction between the two that would warrant rewarding one but not the other.

To me, there's a big difference between running a weekly game for your friends at your local games club, and running several slots at a major convention, whether it's running the latest Special, or running several slots of the Confirmation and introducing a whole load of new people to PFS.

Non-convention GMing is now rewarded by the GM star chronicle, which was probably in response to concerns like yours that only convention GMs were being valued for their time.

The bolded condition is not an excuse to launch an insulting and completely unfounded attack on a totally unrelated aspect of a fellow players game.

I read Nyhmboi's post as more abrasive than Kerney's, but I suppose that just illustrates the difficulty in conveying tone in text communication.

To me, there's a big difference between running a weekly game for your friends at your local games club, and running several slots at a major convention, whether it's running the latest Special, or running several slots of the Confirmation and introducing a whole load of new people to PFS.

This assumes that convention play is more likely to bring in new players, an assumption I can't see any rationale for.

Non-convention GMing is now rewarded by the GM star chronicle, which was probably in response to concerns like yours that only convention GMs were being valued for their time.

Which convention DMs also get.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The bolded condition is not an excuse to launch an insulting and completely unfounded attack on a totally unrelated aspect of a fellow players game.

I read Nyhmboi's post as more abrasive than Kerney's, but I suppose that just illustrates the difficulty in conveying tone in text communication.

I don't care about tone I care about content.

Not liking certain races can reasonably be construed as being xenophobic. Liking certain races cannot reasonably be construed as having poor character creation ability.

This assumes that convention play is more likely to bring in new players, an assumption I can't see any rationale for.

It doesn't assume anything. I was just stating that GMing several slots at a convention, including for people who've never played PFS/PFRPG/D&D/RPGs before, is more of a challenge than GMing at your weekly games club. That's based on my experience of doing both.

As it happens, I also believe that cons do expose the game to more new people, based on my experience of GMing at UK Games Expo last month.

Quote:

Non-convention GMing is now rewarded by the GM star chronicle, which was probably in response to concerns like yours that only convention GMs were being valued for their time.

Which convention DMs also get.

My point being that they're now not the only people being rewarded.

Quote:

Quote:

Non-convention GMing is now rewarded by the GM star chronicle, which was probably in response to concerns like yours that only convention GMs were being valued for their time.

Which convention DMs also get.

My point being that they're now not the only people being rewarded.

This.

This is important for me.
I live in the Netherlands. We have a relatively small scene of PFS players.

I put a lot of time, effort, energy and money into running PFS games. And no, it is not as easy as running my home game. I get players that are a pain, but you have to remain calm and nice about it.

I put a lot into it, because ultimately I love it. Its fun to run an adventure and have a table of people have an evening or a whole weekend day of fun.

But we do not have conventions. I do not have the time or money to go to a convention abroad. If I could, I could save up a few years and maybe go to england, but then I would need to have the luck to be picked to GM.

It would be nice to see what I put into the game rewarded. Or the people that were into PFS before me that did even more so recieve a nice boon.
We do this out of our free will. But sometimes it makes me a bit sad when I read the awesome character ideas of people that managed to go to a con and got a boon. And then I think "I want this too".

That is why I love the idea of giving some of the boons to the VC's. They can then decide who to give the boon too. It does not even have to be a GM.

If you want to play a restricted race and do not have a boon feel free to join a non PFS game. Participating in the organized play program is not required to enjoy Pathfinder.

If you don't have access to conventions and want to earn a racial boon you can always offer to GM a game for an upcoming PbP Game Day.

If you want to play a restricted race and do not have a boon feel free to join a non PFS game. Participating in the organized play program is not required to enjoy Pathfinder.

If you don't have access to conventions and want to earn a racial boon you can always offer to GM a game for an upcoming PbP Game Day.

... or for a VTT game day.

That is why I love the idea of giving some of the boons to the VCs.

What about areas where the nearest VC is 200 miles/300 km away?

If you want to play a restricted race and do not have a boon feel free to join a non PFS game. Participating in the organized play program is not required to enjoy Pathfinder.

Stop that.

First of all, if you tell people often enough to get out, they will. And thats a bad thing.

Secondly you're evading the point rather than answering it. Why does one particular form of participation equate as the ONLY way to get one of these boons?

Paz wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The bolded condition is not an excuse to launch an insulting and completely unfounded attack on a totally unrelated aspect of a fellow players game.

I read Nyhmboi's post as more abrasive than Kerney's, but I suppose that just illustrates the difficulty in conveying tone in text communication.

I don't care about tone I care about content.

Not liking certain races can reasonably be construed as being xenophobic. Liking certain races cannot reasonably be construed as having poor character creation ability.

Doesn't change the fact that you're initial response was a sraightforward misrepresentation of my position.

Thanks Pax, for calling a spade a spade.

Being xenophobic IRL is a character flaw at least and may even be a rational response in certain circumstances. It may also lead to bigotry though which is a bigger problem.

Not wanting to play in the cantina is a matter of taste.

Saying the that the campaign leadership needs to balance my views with his is simple common sense.

Suggesting that there are more possibilities within the context of playing the traditional "Tolkien" races is not insulting. It's pointing out something they may not have thought about.
As for seeing exotic races as a crutch, at least in some cases, I'll point to 4 of the 5 elemental characters I've seen just happened to be sorcerers of their bloodline and the players could tell me nothing about their characters other than the fact they were elemental sorcerers. That, IMHO is just one example of how race is used in place of characterization. I could go on with other examples, or I could go to to other organized play systems and play with five other "unique only good drow in the realms".

All the best,

Kerney

BNW,

The Paizo staff have held a consistent position, since Season 0 of PFS: a large presence at major conventions is important to the brand, in ways that local game days with 3 or 4 tables are not.

I don't think it has to do with getting brand new role-players into PFS; after all, brand-new role-players are probably not the bulk of Origin's attendees. If I had to guess, it reinforces the idea that Pathfinder is a big deal, because it has 100 tables simultaneously playing the convention Special event, or because it dominates the table-top RPG offerings at all the conventions in Illinois.

I may have the real reason wrong. I'm just guessing. But your admitted inability to see any difference between a large convention and a local game-day doesn't change the fact that Paizo staff think the former is very, very important.

And that requires a lot of people to be GMs at conventions. A sought-after boon sheet is the least of the inducements to get the GMs there -- the hotel rooms, free admission, over $100 in Pathfinder swag that Paizo supplies to GMs at Gen Con each cost a lot more in real-world money -- but it does act as an inducement.

--

Also, BNW, Deane never said "don't play PFS". Deane is not telling people to get out.

But the campaign has rules. If a Pathfinder player wants to play a character that doesn't follow those rules, she should find a campaign that allows that character concept. And then also play PFS with other, legal characters. (People are allowed to do both.)

And you're not taking a tenable position. PFS is not intended to be all things to all people. What's the alternative: allowing everybody's weirdest concepts? That can't work. You know that PFS has to disallow some stuff. (And races is certainly going to be among that stuff.)

Being xenophobic IRL is a character flaw
at least and may even be a rational response in certain circumstances.

Being xenophonic as its meant in this context IRL is an impossibility, unless you've met aliens, in which case you're probably justified considering some of their medical procedures.

Suggesting that there are more possibilities within the context of playing the traditional "Tolkien" races is not insulting.

It is highly insulting. It is incredibly insulting. It is unbelievably insulting. You are telling people that they suck at making characters because they want to make a character you don't like. You are taking a matter of taste and translating it into a matter of ability.

As for seeing exotic races as a crutch, at least in some cases, I'll point to 4 of the 5 elemental characters I've seen just happened to be sorcerers of their bloodline and the players could tell me nothing about their characters other than the fact they were elemental sorcerers.

This says nothing. You don't know if they took the elemental race because they liked the flavor or if they just said "oooo stats". You would have to then compare it with the background of the core races in PFS where, sad to say, one person in 5 with a background could easily be an improvement.

And you're not taking a tenable position.

Some other means of achieving a race boon is not tenable? What is strictly untenable about 1 race boon per star (or every other star or at x number of stars), or 1 / anniversary of participation.

Paz wrote:

To me, there's a big difference between running a weekly game for your friends at your local games club, and running several slots at a major convention, whether it's running the latest Special, or running several slots of the Confirmation and introducing a whole load of new people to PFS.

This assumes that convention play is more likely to bring in new players, an assumption I can't see any rationale for.

There have been at least 8 conventions this year that have given out at least 75 new PFS numbers over the course of the three day show. How much more rationale do you need that a regional convention attracts more new players than a local game day?

I'm with BNW in that I would like to think that smaller 'events' would warrant the interesting boons. I get that large cons benefit from such a drawcard, however the hobby in general benefits from the drawcard of more accessible 'mini cons' and events that are more suburban in nature.

If these are already catered for with said boons and I am just 'not in the know' then fair enough, but I would like to think the chaps organising and GMing events are equally rewarded.

Edit: ok Saw Mikes post, that's some good numbers :)

I'm with BNW in that I would like to think that smaller 'events' would warrant the interesting boons. I get that large cons benefit from such a drawcard, however the hobby in general benefits from the drawcard of more accessible 'mini cons' and events that are more suburban in nature.

If these are already catered for with said boons and I am just 'not in the know' then fair enough, but I would like to think the chaps organising and GMing events are equally rewarded.

Edit: ok Saw Mikes post, that's some good numbers :)

As long as a smaller, local con runs 15 tables over three days,they receive the same boons as larger cons. They may only receive 4 different ones instead of 8, but they do receive the same exact ones, including race boons for GMs.

There have been at least 8 conventions this year that have given out at least 75 new PFS numbers over the course of the three day show. How much more rationale do you need that a regional convention attracts more new players than a local game day?

I'd need a comparison with the number of PFS numbers handed out over a similar number of tables spread out over smaller events.

BNW You really seem to be taking this too personally I agree with Paz and Kerney that his position was quite neutral, and he wasn't calling people out for being unimaginative he was just suggesting maybe they should try make the best of what they have and come up with cool concepts within the system (and races) available.

I also don't think his Tolkien comment was insulting, you can read into it that he is saying people suck at making characters but tbf most people can read anything INTO anything. I read it as a simple case of trying to turn a negative (restricted races) into a positive (a fun challenge), I really think you are reading too much into it. In fact YOUR posts are now reading as antagonistic to Kerney, so maybe just take a breath and see if its possible you are reading intent where there was none.

I say all of the above without malice, I generally find your posts and positions to be quite well thought out, but I think you may have the wrong end of the stick with this one.

Oh well, thanks for that, consider me better informed now :)

Suggesting that there are more possibilities within the context of playing the traditional "Tolkien" races is not insulting.

No, it just seems non-sensical to me. If limiting options increases creativity (something I have seen no real life evidence to support as most artist will tell you they should never be limited by their medium) then why allow Tolkein races then? Why not just humans? Why not just human fighters? Surely doing so would make everyone a PathFinder character creation Picaso, right?

...like I said, just seems non-sensical.

It's pointing out something they may not have thought about.

Some reason you can't point that out without limiting their options?

As for seeing exotic races as a crutch, at least in some cases, I'll point to 4 of the 5 elemental characters I've seen just happened to be sorcerers of their bloodline and the players could tell me nothing about their characters other than the fact they were elemental sorcerers.

Yes, I have seen this too. And the people I have seen it from are the ones who could tell you nothing about their human fighter or elf wizard's character other than the fact they are a human fighter or elf wizard. So I don't see how limiting their race choices will change that. Some people will put a lot of work into character background and others won't. I see no evidence to suggest that limiting race options would change this in any way.

I read it as a simple case of trying to turn a negative (restricted races) into a positive (a fun challenge)

Limiting his statement to just that doesn't make sense when he starts describing the race boon as a crutch.

Woran wrote:

That is why I love the idea of giving some of the boons to the VCs.

What about areas where the nearest VC is 200 miles/300 km away?

I try to help by sending most of my booms to such communities, though this year my job has kept me away from conventions so I'm short on booms right now.

But if everyone interested in dealing with this were to "send a boon to Montana" so to speak it is a way to alleviate this circumstance.

BNW,

I could continue to argue with you. However, I think we are getting to the point I've seen in these "racial arguments" were one side calls the other an elitist snob and the other calls the other side a self entitled whiner and both sides see the other as incredibly rude and nobody sees the other person's point and perhaps the thread gets locked.

To that I say, what good is that?

All the best,

Kerney

Deane Beman

:

Stop that.

First of all, if you tell people often enough to get out, they will. And thats a bad thing.

And you're not taking a tenable position.

Some other means of achieving a race boon is not tenable? What is strictly untenable about 1 race boon per star (or every other star or at x number of stars), or 1 / anniversary of participation.

(This is my non-plussed font.)

Please note that my comment to you was in the portion of my post discussing Deane's advice. The position you've taken, relevant to that context, is untenable.

--

Relevant to your proposal, that everybody with 10 GM star-credits gets a race boon, I respectfully submit that you're missing the point of an incentive. The availability of boons at large conventions / virtual conventions is an inducement to get people GMing there.

How might a person get a GM star otherwise? Well, she could run some friends through Thornkeep in a PFS-legal home game, or GM an Adventure Path and take credit under Campaign Mode rules.

If that's enough to get her a boon to play whatever race she likes, then the campaign has extinguished one incentive for her to drive a couple of hours, pay to attend a convention, probably pay for a hotel room, and spend a weekend introducing players to PFS.

However, I think we are getting to the point I've seen in these "racial arguments" were one side calls the other an elitist snob and the other calls the other side a self entitled whiner and both sides see the other as incredibly rude and nobody sees the other person's point and perhaps the thread gets locked.

Which is why looking for a happy medium should really be what the goal is. The way I see it, it doesn't matter which side wins if it goes to either extreme. Whether the result is no one gets race boons or everyone gets race boons the effect is the same. Race boons become irrelevant as a motivational tool. While some may argue they shouldn't be used as such, I will point out that the shear number of people clamoring for them is a good indication of just how well they work as one. And like any motivational tool, if you make it too hard or too easy, it can lose its effectiveness. BNF is suggesting it is currently too hard. While I think making it easy for local game days would indeed make it too easy, having limited access of some sort other than con attendance might not be.

Per the race boons, what if the convention race boons allowed an unlimited/handful of uses rather than just one and then allow the current 1 shot race boons to be made a little more available. That way there is still a decent incentive to go to a convention where the race boons are, but if you have an interesting character concept that you would like to try there is a higher chance of being able to do it.

That or allow something really unique like allow them to use the crafting rules to design their own magic item with confirmation from the PFS staff - I am presuming that there are a sufficiently small number being handed out to make that feasible.

I know when I started I had some interesting ideas for using some of the races that I then realised were locked out. Where I am in Perth in Australia we have tried a number of times to get sufficient people for 15 tables over 3 days, but we just don't have the people to get it done.

Where I am in Perth in Australia we have tried a number of times to get sufficient people for 15 tables over 3 days, but we just don't have the people to get it done.

Have you thought about signing up to GM at one of the VTT game days?

There have been at least 8 conventions this year that have given out at least 75 new PFS numbers over the course of the three day show. How much more rationale do you need that a regional convention attracts more new players than a local game day?

Ok, you've got my professional spider sense tingling.

Sorry, but I'm a database guy who used to specialize in analyzing and reporting on business data. And from my experience, I know that the first thing to question when looking at any business's data is what their assumptions are, and whether or not those assumptions are actually true. You'd be amazed how often they have major business practices based on assumptions that are no longer accurate.

In this case, Paizo seems to be prioritizing new players recruited for PFS at conventions. I'd ask why. When Pathfinder was new, I'm sure that this was the most important thing, to get people introduced to the game. But that was how many years ago? At this point, Pathfinder has enough players and name recognition among gamers that PFS at conventions might not be as important a marketing tool as it used to be. It's possible PFS at local game days may be more important for existing player retention, even if it does bring in less newbies. There's ton of data analysis that can be done to find out.

If I were analyzing Paizo's data, I'd start by pulling detailed statistics for new PFS numbers issued by calendar year. Then, I'd divide those based on where the numbers were issued. Did these people register themselves online before playing their first event, or were they given a number at the event when they played? Did they play their first game at a single table event, single day event with multiple tables, or multi-day convention?

Now, break it out even further. Compare your convention recruited players to local game day newbies - what percentage of each group sticks around to become regular players vs just playing one time and never coming back? Which group produces more people who go on to GM? Who buys more PDFs from the web site? In short, which customers are more valuable based on easily measurable direct sales metrics?

Now, for the less easily measurable sales - hard copy books not purchased through Paizo's web site. Compare the event addresses for the local game days to Paizo's wholesale sales of hard copy products, to see how many of those game days take place at stores that sell Paizo products. Do the stores hosting PFS events sell more Paizo products than stores that don't?

Like I said, Paizo seems to prioritizing quantity of new players, with conventions being a good place to recruit them, but should retention of existing players be higher priority? It's a balancing act. Some level of data analysis would be useful in making informed decisions, and I don't know how much of that stuff Paizo actually does.

Fromper,

I don't think the question is, "Are major conventions a better tool for recruiting and retaining members than local game days."

I think the question is, "Are major conventions sufficiently good sources of recruiting and retaining members that they should be supported?"

If the answer to the latter question is 'yes', then it makes sense that a higher level of inducement is required for conventions as there is a higher level of outlay in time and money from convention participants than from gameday participants.

Seems to me that 75 new members per convention would imply the answer is 'yes.' Albeit, if there is 0 percent retention of these new members this might not be the case, I have my doubts as to that being the case. Personally, I think conventions do more to retain current members than gain new ones, but that still is a good justification for supporting them.

I'm a big fan of conventions. Regional or bigget. Small game days are the sticking point, but conventions, that's where the stars shine. I only wish we had regional only mods, or convention only mods.
That's what drove Greyhawk to such insane play numbers.

I'm a big fan of conventions. Regional or bigget. Small game days are the sticking point, but conventions, that's where the stars shine. I only wish we had regional only mods, or convention only mods.

That's what drove Greyhawk to such insane play numbers.

That's what drove Greyhawk to such insane convention play numbers. I am not totally convinced it is what drove Greyhawk to such insane overall numbers.

I love cons too, but I think game days should not be ignored. They appeal to a different demographic.

BNW...

I have never run 16 hours straight of PFS at a game day...

I did GM that shift last Friday at PaizoCon, followed 8hrs later by a 10 hour set of PFS...

Con GMs run marathons sessions of PFS... Game day GMs run 1 or 2 4-5 hour sets.

I greatly respect game day GMs, they are the bread and butter that keeps PFS running, and I agree that they deserve a bit more recognition.

But to say there is no difference between Con and Game day GMing is jut being willfully obtuse.

Don't take this as an attack, I have good deal of respect for you, you are normally a very level-headed poster, friendly and knowledgeable. But this issue seems to have struck a cord and gotten personal.

I suggest taking a step back and re-centering before continuing.

I do agree that game-day GMs deserve some sort of reward/incentive/recognition for their contributions to the PFS community.

This Chronicle sheet presents five special boons that reward a Pathfinder Society Organized Play participant who has earned one or more GM stars. To earn a boon, the participant must have earned the listed number of stars, must have reached the listed character level, and must either forgo a Day Job roll or spend 1 Prestige Point.

So for running local tables. You only get one chronicle that lets you replace your day job, or spend a prestige point. To do something that will not be used 75% of the time or more. And you can add your number of GM starts to a reroll you may or may not use.

There have been at least 8 conventions this year that have given out at least 75 new PFS numbers over the course of the three day show. How much more rationale do you need that a regional convention attracts more new players than a local game day?

Seen how you have repeatedly stated conventions are so much more important to Paizo. Then normal week end game day. Every time I see this it really makes me want to stop running games for PFSP. I mean why run any thing other then just for haven fun? For all the time spent GMing I get really worthless boon. That boon is on par with some of the boons for conventions for just playing. So why do I want to waste any more of my time running games for PFSP? Ill play PFSP when the tables make. However this kind of mentality will stop me from helping run anything PFSP. Because I can't do conventions it's not worth my time to GM any more then I have.

But to say there is no difference between Con and Game day GMing is jut being willfully obtuse.

.

It is not ONE con vs ONE game day where I'm looking for some parity. It is one con with 8 tables vs running a gameday twice a month for 4 months. Does THAT sound willfully obtuse to you? If so make a better argument for your position because as it is, YES that is an attack.

The bottom line, is conventions that run 200 tables like Kublacon and another in South Carolina I can't recall, and larger like Paizo Con and Gen Con where 200+ to 1500 tables are being run, the success of such a show is dependent on the volunteers.

Personally I've seen more new player numbers being physically handed out at our local con, than at our game days, but based on the sign ups on our local meetup sight, we get more new folk over the course of a calender year. The ratio of a week of game days (20+ tables) to our convention (68 tables last year) is certainly weighted most heavily to the convention.

Conventions are much more than new players though. It hugely supports and caters to the existing player base.

If getting enough volunteers to run the convention is helped by exclusive boons, then keeping them exclusive is a good idea.

Tempest_Knight wrote:

But to say there is no difference between Con and Game day GMing is jut being willfully obtuse.

.

It is not ONE con vs ONE game day where I'm looking for some parity. It is one con with 8 tables vs running a gameday twice a month for 4 months. Does THAT sound willfully obtuse to you? If so make a better argument for your position because as it is, YES that is an attack.

To be clear, you would have to compare it to one con with 15 tables as that is the current cutoff for receiving race boons.

So for running local tables. You only get one chronicle that lets you replace your day job, or spend a prestige point. To do something that will not be used 75% of the time or more. And you can add your number of GM starts to a reroll you may or may not use.

And you only get this chronicle for ONE of your characters, unless you happen to be a five-star GM who happens to have run 200+ tables worth of games.

Yeah, there's a reason I haven't bothered with this.

Nyhmboi wrote:

Just the fact that you have to acquire some weird boon by doing a con or at random to play something unique and fun and have a more characterful choice besides a elf or a dwarf feels like a huge back step for me.

So what do you propose the race boons, that are used to reward those volunteering at PFS events (worldwide and online) for their time, be replaced with?

I'm not afraid of change, I just think that the current system works very well, and nobody has proposed a better solution.

I would maybe suggest boons that open up other options that are locked out such as classes or archetypes that aren't currently legal like what they had for the Assassin maybe a boon to have access to the Blackfire Adept, the Siege Gunner or Undead Lord archetype, maybe a boon that lets you purchase 1 advanced firearm, or one that allows access to not currently legal item like a Blade of the Sword-Saint

Michael Brock wrote:

There have been at least 8 conventions this year that have given out at least 75 new PFS numbers over the course of the three day show. How much more rationale do you need that a regional convention attracts more new players than a local game day?

I'd need a comparison with the number of PFS numbers handed out over a similar number of tables spread out over smaller events.

Sure. And by the time you've got the numbers for small game days or one day cons, I've had ten more shows that have given out another 500-750 new PFS numbers. We can go on all day like this.

The fact is, we do provide boons for stores that can out together 15 tables over 3 days. If the growth and retention is there as you have claimed, it shouldn't be that difficult. Heck, as a VC, I coordinated running 12 tables on a Saturday at my house.

When someone provides a replacement that would attract more people to volunteer, as the race boons currently do, we will consider it. As has been stated a few posts up, people don't consider boons that add to day jobs or give alternative means of spending prestige points as a good incentive.

Oh, and before anyone says we can never get 15 tables in my area so I can't get a race boon, I've sent out race boons to almost a dozen online conventions and events.

Edit: BNW, I see you GMed this past weekend at DexCon. I assume you received the GM boon that opens a race up?

Paz wrote:

Nyhmboi wrote:

Just the fact that you have to acquire some weird boon by doing a con or at random to play something unique and fun and have a more characterful choice besides a elf or a dwarf feels like a huge back step for me.

So what do you propose the race boons, that are used to reward those volunteering at PFS events (worldwide and online) for their time, be replaced with?

I'm not afraid of change, I just think that the current system works very well, and nobody has proposed a better solution.

I would maybe suggest boons that open up other options that are locked out such as classes or archetypes that aren't currently legal like what they had for the Assassin maybe a boon to have access to the Blackfire Adept, the Siege Gunner or Undead Lord archetype, maybe a boon that lets you purchase 1 advanced firearm, or one that allows access to not currently legal item like a Blade of the Sword-Saint

So, if we do that, then we remove the items we like to use for charity auctions. What do you suggest we replace the charity item boons with?

So some people will only GM if they get "paid" (in boons), but are happy to play PFS just for fun... While taking advantage of the kindness of someone else? Interesting. I wonder why your GM does it without getting paid? Maybe GMing is also fun?

BNW: i think you are correct, there should be a way to recognize those GMs running game days... But how? As in, "How, without also just giving boons to every regular home game run privately?" It's a huge tracking issue, and Paizo's tracking system isn't their forte right now.

Sure. And by the time you've got the numbers for small game days or one day cons, I've had ten more shows that have given out another 500-750 new PFS numbers. We can go on all day like this.

Or you can do an apples to apples comparison. You don't just compare [1 con] vs [1 game day] you compare [x tables of conning] vs [x tables of game days]. Its the prerequisite of having the games all bunched in together that seems incredibly arbitrary to me.

The fact is, we do provide boons for stores that can put together 15 tables over 3 days. If the growth and retention is there as you have claimed, it shouldn't be that difficult. Heck, as a VC, I was running 12 tables on a Saturday at my house.

Its booking that much space for that much time that's the problem. I don't think folks are going to buy three times as much stuff if they're there for 3 times as long on the weekend.

When someone provides a replacement that would attract more people to volunteer, as the race boons currently do, we will consider it. As has been stated a few posts up, people don't consider boons that add to day jobs or give alternative means of spending prestige points as a good incentive.

People are apparently running multiple conventions. They don't just stop when they have one race boon. I can't see an additional, limited avenue to the boons as more of a reduction in incentive to dm than having a second con 6 months apart.

Oh, and before anyone says we can never get 15 tables in my area so I can't get a race boon, I've sent out race boons to almost a dozen online conventions and events.

Online works if you know the program that the convention using (apparently roll d20 is the de facto standard). This might be easier if the paizo tabletop becomes a reality.

re edit: Edit: BNW, I see you GMed this past weekend at DexCon. I assume you received the GM boon that opens a race up?

No, i was dashing for the train when they were giving those out. (on the plus side, you see some interesting stuff at a joisey train station at midnight) I'm (mostly) not making these arguments for myself, but from dms and players in meatspace and on the boards that don't have the cash or time to hit the cons.

My problem with conventions is knowing months ahead of time I'll be there. Dexcon was a last minute substitution.

BNW, I'm trying to understand what exactly you are arguing for.

Are you asking for anytime anyone GMs, they receive a boon?

Are you advising even home game GMs, that never GM outside of their living room for the same five players rceive a boon everytime they GM a game?

Are you arguing for argument sake because you are bored?

Did you receive your GM race boon at Dex Con this past weekend?

Dread Knight wrote:

Paz wrote:

Nyhmboi wrote:

Just the fact that you have to acquire some weird boon by doing a con or at random to play something unique and fun and have a more characterful choice besides a elf or a dwarf feels like a huge back step for me.

So what do you propose the race boons, that are used to reward those volunteering at PFS events (worldwide and online) for their time, be replaced with?

I'm not afraid of change, I just think that the current system works very well, and nobody has proposed a better solution.

I would maybe suggest boons that open up other options that are locked out such as classes or archetypes that aren't currently legal like what they had for the Assassin maybe a boon to have access to the Blackfire Adept, the Siege Gunner or Undead Lord archetype, maybe a boon that lets you purchase 1 advanced firearm, or one that allows access to not currently legal item like a Blade of the Sword-Saint

So, if we do that, then we remove the items we like to use for charity auctions. What do you suggest we replace the charity item boons with?

Keep some of the things for charity auctions? Just because you change where some of them are doesn't mean they all have to go there.

Such as open Drow to people but have a rare con/charity boon where they can gain the Drow Noble feats, have Undead Lord be a con boon and Synthesist Summoner a charity boon, open Ifrits, Kitsune, and Goblins but have the Kasathe, Wyrwood, and Trox still be boons for cons/charity auctions.

Have a con boon for Blackfire Adept and a charity boon for a CN Anti-Paladin, a con boon for a single advanced firearm and a charity boon for a pistol of infinite sky, etc