Advanced Race Guide Preview: Letting the Cat out of the Bag

Tuesday, May 15, 2012

Actually, we are letting the cat out of the book. Last week, after previewing the tengu section of the Advanced Race Guide, we asked you what you wanted to see next. We received many good suggestions, but it seems that many of you wanted to see the catfolk.

These lithe and agile creatures make excellent monks, rangers, and especially rogues, but they also have a mysterious side, as they are sometimes able to control luck and can draw on supernatural powers and spells that are very catlike in nature. This week’s preview examines just some examples of these themes in the catfolk section.


Illustration by Kieran Yanner

Catfolk Rogue Talents

The following rogue talents can only be taken by catfolk.

Deadly Scratch (Ex): A catfolk rogue with this talent can apply poison to her claws without accidentally poisoning herself. A catfolk rogue must have the cat’s claws racial trait and the poison use class feature before taking this talent.

Disarming Luck (Ex): Once per day, when a catfolk rogue attempts to disable a device and fails by 5 or more, she can reroll the check as a free action. She must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll.

Graceful Faller (Ex): A catfolk rogue with this talent lands on her feet even when she takes lethal damage from a fall. If the catfolk rogue also has the nimble faller racial trait, she takes damage from any fall as if it were 20 feet shorter than it actually is.

Nimble Climber (Ex): A catfolk rogue with this talent gains a +4 bonus on Climb checks. If she has the climber racial trait, she can take 10 on her Climb checks even when in immediate danger or distracted.

Single-Minded Appraiser (Ex): A catfolk rogue with this talent is skilled at determining the value of sparkly things. She can always take 10 when appraising gems and jewelry.

Vicious Claws (Ex): A catfolk with this talent uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s, but only when she uses her claws to make the sneak attack. A catfolk rogue must have the cat’s claws racial trait before taking this talent.

Catfolk Feats

Catfolk have access to the following feats.

Black Cat
Bad luck befalls those who dare to cross you.
Prerequisite: Catfolk.
Benefit: Once per day as an immediate action, when you are hit by a melee attack, you can force the opponent who made the attack to reroll it with a –4 penalty. The opponent must take the result of the second attack roll. This is a supernatural ability.
Special: If you take this feat and don’t already have all black fur, your fur turns completely black when you take this feat.

Catfolk Magic Items

The following magic items are often created and used by catfolk.

Daredevil Softpaws
Aura faint enchantment; CL 3rd
Slot feet; Price 1,400 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Description

This pair of magical softpaw boots (see above) allows the catfolk wearing them to gain extra maneuverability while moving through hazardous areas. As a free action, the wearer can click her heels together to grant herself a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks made to move through threatened squares or to move through an enemy’s space without provoking attacks of opportunity for up to 10 rounds per day. The rounds need not be consecutive. Furthermore, anytime the wearer of the boots successfully moves though the space of an enemy without provoking an attack of opportunity, she gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against that enemy until the end of her turn.

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, cat’s grace; Cost 700 gp

Catfolk Spells

Catfolk have access to the following spells.

Steal breath
School transmutation [air]; Level bard 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 round (see text)
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
You pull the breath from a creature’s lungs, dealing damage and leaving it unable to speak, use breath weapons, or cast spells with verbal components. If the target fails its saving throw, it takes 2d6 points of damage, and it cannot speak, use breath weapons, or do anything else requiring breathing, and a visible line of swirling air leaves the target’s mouth and enters your mouth.
If, during the duration, the target moves out of range or line of effect to you, the spell immediately ends. This spell has no effect on creatures that do not need to breathe air.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Designer

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Tags: Catfolk Kieran Yanner Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
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Dark_Mistress wrote:
J-Spee Lovecraft wrote:
Related: how many house cats do you guys think it would take to kill an average, unarmed man?
Depends on the man, I have a friend I am fairly sure a single kitten could take down.

A person could obviously kill a few cats by breaking their backs or smashing them or whatever, but if they were attacking in concert and got you in the neck or wrists or eyes, I think you'd be screwed.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

J-Spee Lovecraft wrote:
Related: how many house cats do you guys think it would take to kill an average, unarmed man?

It depends: are the house cats forcing the unarmed man to screw in a light bulb?

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I feel like Paizo really dropped the ball on the Catfolk art/design.

There's a common trend in "monstrous" races, whether in TTRPGs, video games, or whatever, to have them basically be humans with an animal's head. Especially worse is when the males of the species are actually monstrous while the females are basically like this image. Now, I'm kind of used to this, but Guild Wars' Charr race has really set the bar for cat races very high, and this catfolk image (plus the one in B3) really don't even come close to comparing to the sophistication of the Charrs.

First, take a look at the Charr. Just have a look at some of the images. At first, you might not be able to see the difference between male and female Charr... but after some time I feel like it's easy to notice the difference. And it's not just because the males are big and scary and the females are lithe and sexy.

To begin with, this catfolk is far too skinny. She's based on a snow leopard, a species I would expect to have SOME muscle on the bones. The B3 catfolk gets a pass in this regard as she has a jaguar-esque look, so the lithe physique works... but I am strongly opposed to the idea that all catfolk are like this. Or, more correctly, all *female* catfolk look like this. I suspect that if there's a big and muscular catfolk, they're going to be a tiger or a lion, and they're most certainly going to be male. There's also the issue of the breasts. I really dislike the look of them here and on the B3 image, although I realise it's done 100% for the sex appeal (we all know sexy catgirls are popular after all). Why does she have such large breasts when she's a tiny and skinny cat?

One of the writers/creative designers of Guild Wars talked about the lack of breasts (and general "femininity") on the Charr, which you can see here. The key points you can take out of it is that they considered the Charr's society, and considered what would be important to them. They are a warrior race. They need strength and power. They are judged not on the humanocentric view of femininity but on the might they bring to war. Of course, Pathfinder catfolk are not exactly like the Charr--but I think it's important to consider that monstrous races like catfolk (or ratfolk, or grippli, or kitsune, or whatever you like) would most certainly develop different ideas for "sexy females" than humans would. That a female catfolk would not appeal to a male catfolk in the same way that a female human appeals to a male human.

People congratulate Paizo constantly for your breadth of consideration for minorities, different races, and not creating a bunch of half-naked supermodel female iconics. But for other races, especially these more monstrous races--I feel like you don't go the extra mile. That the catfolk is wearing skimpy clothes and has huge boobs because, duh, she's a catgirl. That's what they do. That's what sells.

I really hope to be proven wrong with the release of the ARG--not just on Catfolk but on all the other monstrous critters in there.


Foghammer wrote:
It's not fun or flavorful for SOME OF US[/capslockforemphasis] to lock generic options like that into ONE race just for the sake of making exclusive options.

This is my feeling exactly. The Rogue Talents tied to racial abilities, classes like the Halfling Opportunist... great. For other things, it would be nice if it was treated like the new spell: created by a certain race, often used by a certain race, but still theoretically attainable by anyone. I mean, if they went to the trouble of expunging racial requirements from the system in the Arcane Archer and Dwar... Stalwart Defender, it seems odd to bring it all back.

Also, though it is purely a matter of taste: Team Bestiary Catfolk forever.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well, can't please everybody all the time.


Thraxus wrote:
GrenMeera wrote:
From what I can garner, the rules never said that natural weapons do not count as weapons for this ability. However, in the case of contact poisons, simply touching the poison would make you susceptible. Perhaps this ability is merely a way to protect against contact poisons?

I believe, as a general rule, natural attacks and unarmed strikes are not considered to be weapons. This is the reason the monk class specifically calls out its unarmed strikes as counting as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

PRD wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Natural and unarmed attacks are considered weapons.

There are certain abilities that require manufactured weapons (of which unarmed strikes and natural attacks are not), hence that clarification.

Contributor

Dragon78 wrote:
Nice abilities but hate the art for them, the bestiary 3 version is an awesome pic but this just horrible.

I disagree. Personally, I hated the art from the Bestiary 3 and like this one so much more. If you're going to have a catfolk, then don't do it as a human with pointy cat ears and some fur.


Stupid sexy B3-catfolk...


So far I haven't been impressed with the art of this book except for the Tengu. I have been a anime and Thundercats fan for years and am very particular of how I view them. Also I am not seeimg the Charr as being any better then ether this or the Bestiary 3 art.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alice Margatroid wrote:
*a long post*

All of your points are excellent, and I know that the art department tries very hard to avoid gratuitous art. I feel that I must point out that the Advanced Race Guide and the Bestiary 3 are both in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line, which is intended to be as setting-neutral as possible. There are numerous ways to depict "part-human, part-cat," and so far, we've seen two of them in our products. As is evidenced in this thread, some people one depiction over the other. Nowhere do we make the claim that either depiction of the catfolk is how it *must* be in your game. If you want to make the catfolk in your game more like the Charr from Guild Wars, more power to you (I'd encourage it, in fact). Go with what works in your game—we're not going to stop you!


I'd hardly use the Charr as the basis of all feline art...seeing as they are only part partially feline the horns sorta ruin a big part of "catfolk" vibe.

edit Not saying that your opinion is wrong or anything just saying it isn't the first thing that pops into my mind. I see it as more thundercats than charr.


Alice Margatroid wrote:
First, take a look at the Charr.

Demon horns and a tail that reminds me of a dogs... yeah, I'd believe that's catfolk alright.


10 people marked this as a favorite.

After the dragonboob debacle you would think fantasy artists would pay more attention to the boob count on anthropomorphic creatures. Anyone who has ever owned a cat knows that the correct boob count for felines is *eight* though sometimes they have as many as *ten*. This catfolk is clearly shy a few boobs.


Are catfolk supposed to be like kitty cats or more like big cats?


Goblin King Grog wrote:

After the dragonboob debacle you would think fantasy artists would pay more attention to the boob count on anthropomorphic creatures. Anyone who has ever owned a cat knows that the correct boob count for felines is *eight* though sometimes they have as many as *ten*. This catfolk is clearly shy a few boobs.

Don't forget the fact they are on the kitties belly!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Goblin King Grog wrote:

After the dragonboob debacle you would think fantasy artists would pay more attention to the boob count on anthropomorphic creatures. Anyone who has ever owned a cat knows that the correct boob count for felines is *eight* though sometimes they have as many as *ten*. This catfolk is clearly shy a few boobs.

Lol

I wish I could favorite a post with an alias. Hail Grog!

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This looks awesome. Very excited about the quality of this book*.

Spoiler:
Explosive Runes

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I once congratulated Adam Daigle about his possession article in an AP chapter, and he said to me, "Don't thank me, thank Paizo." Implying that he didn't get there alone.

So thanks to SKR, Stephen, Jason, and everybody else on the development side. They're the awesome.

These catfolk are terrific. I'm proud of the final product. This is going to be a really great book- not just for players but for GMs who want to spice up their campaigns with some really cool options.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kryzbyn wrote:
Well, can't please everybody all the time.

If the books was made out of chocolate then you could. You could then eat what you don't like in the book. Before you or anyone else says but I or I know someone that doesn't like chocolate. That's just not true, everyone knows only aliens don't like chocolate. So if you or anyone you know says they don't like chocolate then they have been killed and replaced with a shape shifting alien that is part of the vanguard of the invading alien armada. :)


Obviously the people that are allergic to chocolate are aliens then.


I don't see why Catfolk couldn't be both based on house cats or big cats. Besides reguardless of what cat you make them look like they still have the same basic stats unless there are options in this book that changes that.


So kinda like the Cathar from Star Wars?


Goblin King Grog wrote:
After the dragonboob debacle you would think fantasy artists would pay more attention to the boob count on anthropomorphic creatures. Anyone who has ever owned a cat knows that the correct boob count for felines is *eight* though sometimes they have as many as *ten*. This catfolk is clearly shy a few boobs.

In one SF game I introduced a gene-engineered feline species that accidentally resembled one of ancient alien species - except the former had human-like boobs (as they were designed by their creators as playmates and companions to humans) while the later anatomy was much closer to the actual cats. Yet, the party was perplexed for a moment when they meet the gene-engineered Cats, as they mistook them for those hyper-advanced Ancients at first.

EDIT: Damn, now I want to see that cat's claw racial trait and know what it replaces - hopefuly it's an option replacing cat's luck.

EDIT 2: Will we get any preview of Blood Of Angels somewhere in between ARG previews?


I hope the cat's claws replaces cat's luck as well Drejk.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

See Paizo, this is what you get when you introduce cat people.
Two pages about speculation about Cat Boobs.
Is this what you want for your setting, Paizo? Is it?

BOO TO CAT PEOPLE FOREVER
VIVA LA TENGU
TENGU NESTS SHOULD BE SAFE FROM HUMAN BOOBIED ANTHROPOMORPHIC CATS
I NEVER WATCHED THUNDERCATS, HOW OLD ARE YOU NOW?
*waves protest banner*


I don't have the Bestiary 3 so I've never seen the picture of the catfolk. Does anyone have a link?

Leo_Negri wrote:
Now can we please get some info on either Half-Orcs or Orcs?

Yes, yes! Please!


Kuro Poe wrote:

BOO TO CAT PEOPLE FOREVER

VIVA LA TENGU
TENGU NESTS SHOULD BE SAFE FROM HUMAN BOOBIED ANTHROPOMORPHIC CATS
I NEVER WATCHED THUNDERCATS, HOW OLD ARE YOU NOW?
*waves protest banner*

I'd eat some scrambled egg now... Or broth made on some wings.

Uh, what were you saying, Kuro Poe?

Spoiler:
BTW: "Kuro" in Polish is hen in vocative grammatical case in Polish - apparently avians fight for avians while mammals eat them...

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Liz Courts wrote:
All of your points are excellent, and I know that the art department tries very hard to avoid gratuitous art. I feel that I must point out that the Advanced Race Guide and the Bestiary 3 are both in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line, which is intended to be as setting-neutral as possible. There are numerous ways to depict "part-human, part-cat," and so far, we've seen two of them in our products. As is evidenced in this thread, some people one depiction over the other. Nowhere do we make the claim that either depiction of the catfolk is how it *must* be in your game. If you want to make the catfolk in your game more like the Charr from Guild Wars, more power to you (I'd encourage it, in fact). Go with what works in your game—we're not going to stop you!

I appreciate the sentiment! Trust me, if I was to have a prominent catfolk race, they would certainly take a lot from the Charr. ;) And I approve of your art department's decisions in this regard quite a lot. But there's no harm in speaking up when I DON'T approve. Only way they'll consider otherwise, after all.

havoc xiii wrote:

I'd hardly use the Charr as the basis of all feline art...seeing as they are only part partially feline the horns sorta ruin a big part of "catfolk" vibe.

edit Not saying that your opinion is wrong or anything just saying it isn't the first thing that pops into my mind. I see it as more thundercats than charr.

Azten wrote:
Demon horns and a tail that reminds me of a dogs... yeah, I'd believe that's catfolk alright.

Remove the horns and they're 100% cat people. (Heck, you can do this yourself in the GW2 character creator more or less - pick the smallest horns and then reduce their size.) Not all of them have "demon horns". I also don't know how Azten thinks the tails are dog-like - the males have lion tails and the females have snow leopard tails (actually two good male tails in this picture too). But more to the point I'm confused as to how tails and horns completely change the fact that they have feline features in every other way. Are tengu not bird-people despite having claw hands? :)

But ultimately, I'm not trying to say that "Catfolk must be like Charr!", hell no! The charr play a specific role in the GW2 lore and look the way they do because of the circumstances of that game. What I'm trying to say is that "there are more options than slutty catgirls". And that more monstrous races deserve more depth in their conceptualisation than "guys are big and scary monsters and girls are basically big breasted chicks with animal heads and tails". The charr are just a very good example of that point.

I want grippli to have singing contests to woo the females, and the deepest and most booming voices are the most appealing. I want tengu women to be appealing because of their glossy feathers, not because of their physique (or heaven forbid breasts). I want nagaji females to care less about personal appearance and more about their physical prowess when it comes to courting. Because these races AREN'T human, and they are skirting the very edge of "human" and "monster", more than elves or gnomes or dwarves do. I think that offers a very specific opportunity to play off human culture and create a very unique and memorable race out of it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Very interesting indeed. I gotta show this to my friend who once played a catfolk rogue, it might just convince her to dust that old character off and put her to use again. As for the art, rather interesting. Other than the double-jointed feet (which always confused me, but whatever, its fantasy, mate), I actually prefer the khajit look to the catgirl look. No real reason to it, its just that I guess I'm a bit of an Elder Scrolls fan and...well, its nice to see elements of it in other places. But great stuff guys, great stuff. Especially Vicious Claws, and Steal Breath and Black Cat are great flavor spells. Never expected something pulled out of old myth like that. Impressive.

And since I saw it mentioned once already, I too would like to see stuff on ratfolk for next week's teasers, since they are among my favorites. Or not. Either way...only a few more weeks till the release date...


Liking it so far. The vicious claws looks evil and great.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

<snipped>

To begin with, this catfolk is far too skinny. She's based on a snow leopard, a species I would expect to have SOME muscle on the bones.

<snipped>

Why does she have such large breasts when she's a tiny and skinny cat?

Alice, are we looking at the same picture here, seriously. First, judging from the stance and the weapon, I'd guess she's a Monk, and she's far from skinny in that respect. Her musculature definition is in line with a Bruce Lee or Michele Yeoh; toned, compact, and I'd guess more efficient pound for pound than that of a similarly built Rogue (like the illo in B3). In short I see plenty of muscle on her frame, what I don't see is a lot of fat which is, once again in line with the whole martial artist concept.

Second, she's far from as top-heavy as you imply (I had to look twice to make sure it was a female at first, admittedly I'm working with a black and white monitor in 256 grayscale, ancient work computer), and once again, in line with the whole Monk / Xiao Lin Nun look Yanner appears to have been going for. It's not like they stuck a cat head on Seoni (or even the D&D 3Ed Iconic, Ember).


Alice Margatroid wrote:

Why does she have such large breasts when she's a tiny and skinny cat?

Perhaps I'm jaded from being an anime/manga fan myself, but I don't really see that as 'large.' If anything, I think the perspective/gravity might be a wee bit off in the b3 image... her right shoulder seems too far forward for her chest to be at that angle.

... I do, however, completely agree with the idea that non-human races should not necessarily be beholden to human standards of attractiveness. If I'm not mistaken, cats use scent to attract mates, so I would think that would be the natural 'standard of attraction' here. Nice smell = good looking.

But, rather than get too far off on this tangent, I'll just throw my vote in to having a world where both types of catfolk exist - some humanoid, some primal, some in between.

Edit: ninja'd, at least a little... >.>

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Some of these abilities look pretty cool. I really wish I had some way of obtaining a catfolk race boon for PFS...


As for what race should get the next preview I would go with Kobolds since they had the second highest number of votes.

I agree that humaniod reptiles, birds and frogs shouldn't have boobs but humaniod mammals should since they are mammals. The size should very just as size varies per person in real life.


I'm partial to catfolk looking like mithras from FFXI, but only because I didn't yet see any better picture. I like my anthropomorphic animals to look very humanoid, but also with distinct animal features.
The only catgirl look that I'd consider better than a mithra is of Cheshire from an Alice in Sexland hentai dojinshi.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
ImperatorK wrote:
Cheshire from an Alice in Sexland hentai dojinshi.

0.0

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Alice Margatroid wrote:
But ultimately, I'm not trying to say that "Catfolk must be like Charr!", hell no! The charr play a specific role in the GW2 lore and look the way they do because of the circumstances of that game. What I'm trying to say is that "there are more options than slutty catgirls". And that more monstrous races deserve more depth in their conceptualisation than "guys are big and scary monsters and girls are basically big breasted chicks with animal heads and tails".

Alice,

I completely respect how you feel. I'm not posting to disagree with your point. I feel it is entirely well taken and well stated. And I definitely don't want to fight the Internet, because I'll get my ass kicked.

(Heck, I lose a tooth each and every single time I go near a Rules Question thread)

I hear your concern, but I don't see it in the art being depicted. She doesn't look particularly large breasted to me. In my eyes, she looks lean, mean, and athletic. She has a female top, sure, but it doesn't look bulging or unwieldy to me, or large in proportion to her head like in some comic books. Of course, that's my subjective opinion. She's dressed like a monk, which to me accounts for her top. In fact, nunchucks notwithstanding- I got a real strong hunch she IS a monk. ;-)

You may disagree with me about her proportions and that's fine. I respect you might see the art differently.

I just don't think this character artwork, specifically, is the beginning of a pattern of female objectification. She looks slender to me.

PS: I might reply, but I might not. Freelancers have to be careful speaking for the company. I believe in what I'm saying here, but I have to respect Art Department, the Developers, and EVERYBODY ELSE. If this discussion gets heavy, I'll have to quietly disappear and not stir the pot.

But I do like the art, and I think the folks responsible did a great job.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Kuro Poe wrote:

See Paizo, this is what you get when you introduce cat people.

Two pages about speculation about Cat Boobs.
Is this what you want for your setting, Paizo? Is it?

I don't think you have too much to worry about with regards to the *setting*, From what I can tell catfolk are destined to remain a bit player in Golarion and most GMs can safely ignore they exist at all.

Sadly... tengu are pretty much a bit player as well, though they have thus far gotten more love than the cat folk with tengu love in some of the PFS scenarios and in Serpents Skull.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I take my catfolk breasted, like my women.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't remember who pointed this out btw, but two things I just looked up to confirm on the whole boob thing.

In terms of number, cats normally have 8, whereas humans have 2. The difference is in the number of offspring usually birthed at a time. i forget the relationship, but the number is usually related to the average number of offspring, ranging anywhere between half and the full number (so, for cats, anywhere between 4-8, and correct me if I'm wrong, but most litters of kittens come in that number). If a catfolk only ever sires one or two children at a time, then the standard human arrangement is acceptable.

As for their protrusion, this is a circumstance pretty much unique to humans in our world for currently unclear reasons, and in other animals they are much more indistinct. Their presence and size all depends on how much of the "folk" they're emphasizing. The less "folk," the less pronounced they'd look, to the point where members of other races might be almost unable to tell the genders of different catfolk apart. The more human paizo wants them o look though, then you can easily have the artwork above. Once more though, this is fantasy, so do what you want, really. Remember the MST3K Mantra , and all will be right and well in the world...

btw, I know the mantra normally applies to television, but i still think the logic can be transfered with little adjustment here...

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Gorbacz wrote:
I take my catfolk breasted, like my women.

But how many? Don't cats have six breasts?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

<De Niro> My catfolk has nipples, can you milk him? </De Niro>


Pygon wrote:

Now that's a catfolk.

I thought the one in Bestiary 3 looked a little too human in the face.

I have to second this, Kieran Yanner did an amazing piece of art up there.

Liberty's Edge

Leo_Negri wrote:
Alice, are we looking at the same picture here, seriously. First, judging from the stance and the weapon, I'd guess she's a Monk, and she's far from skinny in that respect. Her musculature definition is in line with a Bruce Lee or Michele Yeoh; toned, compact, and I'd guess more efficient pound for pound than that of a similarly built Rogue (like the illo in B3). In short I see plenty of muscle on her frame, what I don't see is a lot of fat which is, once again in line with the whole martial artist concept.

Personally, I see a super-thin waist and limbs and nothing much resembling toned muscles. The waist is the big thing for me--that's skinny, not trim. An image like this or this, for example, seems to have a lot more "bulk" (especially around the torso/stomach; consider how much weight the spine has to carry, after all) than the catfolk image. A lot of martial artists' power comes from the stomach/torso/hip area, which is the most overly skinny part of this image.

The fact that the artist has basically given her 2/3 proportions in the legs does overall increase the skinny appearance, mind you...

Leo_Negri wrote:
Second, she's far from as top-heavy as you imply (I had to look twice to make sure it was a female at first, admittedly I'm working with a black and white monitor in 256 grayscale, ancient work computer), and once again, in line with the whole Monk / Xiao Lin Nun look Yanner appears to have been going for. It's not like they stuck a cat head on Seoni (or even the D&D 3Ed Iconic, Ember).
Stalchild wrote:
Perhaps I'm jaded from being an anime/manga fan myself, but I don't really see that as 'large.' If anything, I think the perspective/gravity might be a wee bit off in the b3 image... her right shoulder seems too far forward for her chest to be at that angle.

Here's the thing... Cleavage that deep is obtained in two ways: either having large breasts (let's say D cup), or having smaller breasts that are very tightly squished together. That bra-thing definitely does NOT look like the type of bra that would provide enough support to give that much of a lift/squeeze for a smaller-breasted woman. But of course she doesn't compare to (some) anime... or even Seoni! :)

Mind you... a lot of the size seems to be lost because of Yanner's flat painting style. And looking at (her) right breast, where it protrudes over the side, seems to imply smaller breasts. But then where's that cleavage line coming from?

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing wrong with large breasts in fantasy art. No problem whatsoever. I just don't think it's necessarily appropriate on beast-women, especially catwomen, from the perspective of "why would a stealthy cat-person race develop a tendency towards large breasts?" rather than any sort of moral standpoint.

And besides--sexy catgirls sell.

I do disagree on the "sticking a head on a human body" thing though. That's pretty much literally what the artist has done (oh, plus some weirdness with the legs). Mind you, that's also probably what Paizo ordered. It's not necessarily a bad thing. But I just think monster races could be so much cooler if you went a little beyond "it's a girl with <x animal> head!"

Jim Groves wrote:
I just don't think this character artwork, specifically, is the beginning of a pattern of female objectification. She looks slender to me.

I don't think so either! I didn't mean to come across that I was saying that, if I did so. I don't want to make this thread turn into one of those Seoni Christmas card threads (*shudder*). I normally don't care about this sort of thing ("female objectivication" or whatever you want to call it), but it just seems so out of place in creature art like this, when you have the potential to do so much more than a scantily-dressed catgirl.

Oh, and to be honest, I didn't think that she was a monk until you and Leo_Negri pointed it out... I guess using a nunchuck == monk? ;)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

^ Wow...OBGYN in tha house!

I was going to say she isn't in a combat stance, she's just showing us that she isn't a Rakshasa.

Silver Crusade

I thought the original gameplan was to feature, for races that only get one picture in their chapters, an example of that race of the opposite gender of what's been presented already. Or perhaps that only applied to the Dragon Empires races. Still, can i haz nunchukz?

"Single-Minded Appraiser". Yeah, just like their stat array, whoever is coming up with these mechanics understands cats. The only thing they're lacking is a bonus to trip attempts near stairs.

As far as personal aesthetics preference, ideally I'd take the Bestiary 3 approach and add the digitigrade legs. Adds to the "other"ness while keeping the superexpressive face.

Leo_Negri wrote:
So glad that catfolk are so much less anime now. And only the face is even remotely Khajit-like The Khajit are every bit as humanoid as the B3 artwork.

Current Khajit are, but from Morrowind and further back they sported digitigrade legs. Can't recall if Argonians did or not.

Barong wrote:


Leo_Negri wrote:
Now can we please get some info on either Half-Orcs or Orcs?
Yes, yes! Please!

+2

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I don't think so either! I didn't mean to come across that I was saying that, if I did so. I don't want to make this thread turn into one of those Seoni Christmas card threads (*shudder*). I normally don't care about this sort of thing ("female objectivication" or whatever you want to call it), but it just seems so out of place in creature art like this, when you have the potential to do so much more than a scantily-dressed catgirl.

Oh, and to be honest, I didn't think that she was a monk until you and Leo_Negri pointed it out... I guess using a nunchuck == monk? ;)

Okay Alice, I see where you're coming from. Its cool. I don't want to dogpile on ya with any other posters, so I'll leave it there.

AS for the monk question? I can't speak for Leo, but I wrote the catfolk. Love me, hate me, blame me, whatever the crowd desires. So I get whatever insight I 'might have' from the DEPARTMENT OF SPOILERS. And I say no more, lest I be stabbed in the eye with a salad fork. Besides, I am frequently wrong because stuff gets changed.

(But if you want to praise me, truthfully, my version was rough and my ideas (and some material I never thought of) were professionally developed and improved by professional people a lot smarter than me.)

I submitted art notes, but at that time B3 wasn't in publication so I never saw the B3 illustration. I really don't know if anybody had seen it yet. The final artwork for this book, and indeed the gender of this character was determined by wise people who make decisions in the best interest of the needs of the project. I do know that all gender decisions are made thoughtfully, and are carefully considered. The gender even influences the pronouns used in subsequent text.

Peace Alice! :)

Liberty's Edge

O_o I don't know what the OBGYN comment is supposed to imply (is it squickish for guys to hear about how boobs work? :P), but hey, just explaining my point of view. It really sticks out for me when boobs are doing things they really shouldn't be doing. :)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I was poking fun at your bewb knowledge.

Liberty's Edge

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Hey, when you've got a pair of your own you kind of have to know how they work if you don't want to be in constant pain from not using the right bra! ;)

(I was mostly just wondering whether there was some kind of new internet insult or something I'd missed out on. haha.)

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