Versatility is a Human Virtue

From the Blog RAW, it's clear that Fast Learner lets you get HP+Skill OR Other Bonus, but that whole line is a big run-one sentence that is atrocious to read in order to get to that point of understanding. The English language IS actualy capable of structuring things to convey the same info in a coherent way.

Re: Martial Versatility/Mastery, I am thinking less of Weapon Focus than something like Dervish Dance. Hello non-Scimitar DEX to Damage! Or Piranha Strike (DEX Power Attack) for Finesse Elven Curveblade users!

Re: Martial Versatility/Mastery, I am thinking less of Weapon Focus than something like Dervish Dance. Hello non-Scimitar DEX to Damage! Or Piranha Strike (DEX Power Attack) for Finesse Elven Curveblade users!

This would indeed work with Dervish Dance...but Piranha Strike doesn't work with 'one specific weapon' so I don't think it qualifies. Nice catch on Dervish Dance, though.

net feats with this could be wierd. Although with dervish dance working it allows dervish dance with falcatas as they are the same group.

net feats with this could be wierd. Although with dervish dance working it allows dervish dance with falcatas as they are the same group.

For a total of four Feats (WF, DD, EWP: Falcata, Martial Versatility), and wielded one-handed without a shield, yes.

doctor_wu wrote:

net feats with this could be wierd. Although with dervish dance working it allows dervish dance with falcatas as they are the same group.

For a total of four Feats (WF, DD, EWP: Falcata, Martial Versatility), and wielded one-handed without a shield, yes.

Y'know, the "feats argument" doesn't really work with fighters...

I think the Fast Learner's intent, with that horrible run-on sentence that would have been given an F- by any competent high school english teacher, was as follows...

The human with this feat may, when taking a level in their favored class, take both an HP bonus and a Skill bonus. Alternately, they may take one of those two bonuses and also the racial favored class ability.

I think the Fast Learner's intent, with that horrible run-on sentence that would have been given an F- by any competent high school english teacher, was as follows...

The human with this feat may, when taking a level in their favored class, take both an HP bonus and a Skill bonus. Alternately, they may take one of those two bonuses and also the racial favored class ability.

I'm reading it as, take:

A) +1 HP & +1 Skill point

OR

B) Take one Favored Class Alternative ability

mdt wrote:

I think the Fast Learner's intent, with that horrible run-on sentence that would have been given an F- by any competent high school english teacher, was as follows...

The human with this feat may, when taking a level in their favored class, take both an HP bonus and a Skill bonus. Alternately, they may take one of those two bonuses and also the racial favored class ability.

I'm reading it as, take:

A) +1 HP & +1 Skill point

OR

B) Take one Favored Class Alternative ability

I can already take a Favored Class Alternative without a feat. All taking the feat would get me is the option of taking A, if this were the case. Since that's a bad selection, it's only worth it if you NEVER take B.

I reiterate, I think it's supposed to mean A) 1HP & 1SP, or B) FCA & One of 1HP or 1SP.

EDIT : I also reiterate that the sentence in question should be taken out and shot.

I'm reading it as, take:

A) +1 HP & +1 Skill point

OR

B) Take one Favored Class Alternative ability

This is how I read it as well.

Is this book sent to the printer yet?

I hope there's support for half-humans (aasimar, changelings, dhampirs, half-elves, half-orcs, ifrit, oreads, slyphs, suli, tieflings, undine, etc) taking human-only feats, like a feat or trait they can take that enables them to count as human for qualifying for feats and other effects.

Y'know, the "feats argument" doesn't really work with fighters...

I wasn't really making an argument per se, just noting it was a costly trick, though doable. But even for a Fighter, that is a lot of his Feats.

It also doesn't let him wield it two handed (dropping his DPR behind a two-handed Fighter of any sort without real compensation, aside from being entirely Dex based). Honestly, unless Reflex Save and Initiative are much more important to you than they're probably worth (or you're going Duelist) it's not a good use of the Feats, from a mechanics perspective.

A Falcata + Shield adds close to as much to AC (+7 or so) while keeping identical damage, and saving three Feats...and I think we all know which of two-handing the Falcata and using it with a shield sans TWF is a better deal.

See, that was an argument! :)

I think the Fast Learner's intent, with that horrible run-on sentence that would have been given an F- by any competent high school english teacher, was as follows...

The human with this feat may, when taking a level in their favored class, take both an HP bonus and a Skill bonus. Alternately, they may take one of those two bonuses and also the racial favored class ability.

Thing is, there's absolutely no reason at all to do the latter. Take the racial favored class ability as your replacement racial trait, then take this feat and get HP and skill bonus. Doing it the other way is just plain wasteful.

Does fast learner differ meaningfully from taking the skill point each time and taking toughness? In fact, toughness applies even to non-favoured class levels.

So, only any use if you're already planning on taking toughness and want even more hit points?

From the Blog RAW, it's clear that Fast Learner lets you get HP+Skill OR Other Bonus, but that whole line is a big run-one sentence that is atrocious to read in order to get to that point of understanding. The English language IS actualy capable of structuring things to convey the same info in a coherent way.

Re: Martial Versatility/Mastery, I am thinking less of Weapon Focus than something like Dervish Dance. Hello non-Scimitar DEX to Damage! Or Piranha Strike (DEX Power Attack) for Finesse Elven Curveblade users!

Hmmm.. The intent looked to me as though it was meant for feats in which you select a single weapon for the feat to apply to. I can see where your interpretation comes from, but it seems like a wonky way for the feat to work.

I read Fast Learner as MDT did. Which if it does not I will simply adjust it to work that way by my ruling.

the feat makes more sense as MDT reads it. Otherwise it's basically Taking a skill point each level and grabbing toughness. It also serves as a disincentive to ever take the racial favored class bonuses. Which makes no sense.

The sentence is ridiculously confusing and some Errata would be super helpful, But the feat makes the most sense as:

Take Two of the Following:
a. +1 HP
b. +1 Skill Point
c. Racial Favored Class Bonus

But it needs to be dealt with because it could be taken as:
[When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank] [instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.]

That is, You not longer have a choice between favored racial Class Bonuses and HP or Skills, You have to take HP and Skills. Or it could be read as just never dealing with Racial favored class bonuses at all. they're never in the sentence.

And That would make no sense design-wise.

Does Martial Versatility/Mastery help me qualify for things?

Say there is a prestige class that requires Weapon Focus (longsword). I have Weapon Focus (greatsword) and Martial Versatility (weapon focus).

Does that allow me to get into the prestige class as if I had Weapon Focus (longsword)?

Also, what happens if a weapon falls into more than one group? Say I have Weapon Focus (trident), for example; does that mean that I would get a +1 bonus to hit with the weapons from the spear group AND the thrown weapons group? What's more, if I have Weapon Focus in both the greataxe AND the greatsword, can I take Martial Versatility once (choosing Weapon Focus) to get Weapon Focus with ALL axes AND heavy blades?

I think the Fast Learner's intent, with that horrible run-on sentence that would have been given an F- by any competent high school english teacher, was as follows...

The human with this feat may, when taking a level in their favored class, take both an HP bonus and a Skill bonus. Alternately, they may take one of those two bonuses and also the racial favored class ability.

It is possible you are right about the intent, and it is possible that Cheapy is right about the intent. Either way, you are absolutely, positively, unimpeachably right about that sentence. It needs to be destroyed, with extreme prejudice.

Fast Learner seems to be EITHER +1 HP and +1 skill point per level OR the alternate favored class bonus.

I can't imagine it being "+1 HP, +1 Skill, Favored class bonus. Pick 2."

Why wouldn't it be? If it's not 'pick 2' than the feat does absolutely nothing for someone choosing the alternate favored class bonuses, rather than HP or Skill, so why mention it at all?

valid stuff that makes my brain hurt

This game has become too complicated.

Cheapy wrote:

I can't imagine it being "+1 HP, +1 Skill, Favored class bonus. Pick 2."

If it's not 'pick 2' than the feat does absolutely nothing for someone choosing the alternate favored class bonuses, rather than HP or Skill, so why mention it at all?

Maybe this feat was ment to put back some versatility. Right now everyone I know just uses the alternative class features and noone bothers with HPs or Skillpoints any more.

Sorry if this is a silly question, but what is this ‘alternate class features’ everyone is speaking of?

Our group is using the +1 HP or +1 SP every time we level. I didn’t know there were alternate class features you could take instead.

I dunno; devil's advocate, but there is some evidence that Neanderthals were far more versatile & generalist than sapiens, which to my mind puts lie to the "humans as the most flexible race" story. Humans specialize, they create hierarchies & roles. I don't know, I realize not many people play with Neanderthals in their game-- I do!-- & humans may be more versatile than elves, I'm just putting in a dissenting viewpoint for discussion's sake.

@Hobbun
http://www.d20pfsrd.com is your friend for non-core rules, look under races: Favored Class Alternatives
Hint: even the goblins got some (because they are made of pure awesomeness)

@Hobbun

http://www.d20pfsrd.com is your friend for non-core rules, look under races: Favored Class Alternatives
Hint: even the goblins got some (because they are made of pure awesomeness)

I know about d20pfsrd, but I am at work and unfortunately it is blocked. I will have to take a look when I get home.

What book were the alternate class features introduced?

Btw, how did you know to bring up ACF for goblins? We are playing hobgoblins right now in our current campaign. I have mentioned it before on the boards, but it was a long time ago and the couple threads I made on it haven't had a lot of activity.

I believe all but the goblins alternate traits come from the APG, only humans got an alternate for every base class (except magus and gunslinger as they came in later books).
Goblins is from that "guide to goblins" book I sadly don't own, they even got a gunslinger trait and were named therefor as one of the best gunslinger classes in a guide. It's not open content I believe, so it's not on d20pfsrd.

I know to bring up goblins, because I always bring up goblins when it makes any sense (and even sometimes when it doesn't). Everything is better with goblins.

They're in Goblins of Golarion, I think.

@Hobbun

Alternative favored class bonuses were introduced in Advanced Player's Guide, in that first chapter that described how each race views each class. The chapter also featured alternative racial traits to replace the classics, like the human ability Eye for Talent replacing their bonus feat.

Ok, thanks all. I guess I should have read the APG and Goblins of Golarian a little closer!

Fast learner seems like an awesome feat, but not for every class. Sorcerers, Bards, Wizards, Alchemists, Oracle, witch, and Inquisitors will probably want the bonus spell (Especially the spontaneous casters)

Fighters, Paladins and Clerics will probably love this feat (2 SR per level and not being int-dependent needs the skill rank). Druids, too if they don't care bout that boost to diplomacy/Intimidate

And this also helps any summoner/Ranger variants who do not focus too much on their main follower (ie: Master summoner archetype, or a ranger choosing the other Hunter's Bond)

The other classes already get 1/Xth of a class talent or bonus to a class ability, which is an awesome ability imo

So this feat is great, but usually you're going to prefer the alternate class bonus, making it broad enough to have many possibilities, but narrow enough to keep it in check

</imo>

Given the way Critical feat prerequisites work, I find Critical Versatility to be horrendously overpowered. No Human fighter would ever choose anything else, except to pair with it with Critical Mastery, or as a prerequisite.

I dunno; devil's advocate, but there is some evidence that Neanderthals were far more versatile & generalist than sapiens, which to my mind puts lie to the "humans as the most flexible race" story. Humans specialize, they create hierarchies & roles. I don't know, I realize not many people play with Neanderthals in their game-- I do!-- & humans may be more versatile than elves, I'm just putting in a dissenting viewpoint for discussion's sake.

I'll bite:

In AD&D, only non-humans could multi-class, but only humans could specialise in any class they wanted. Whether that leads you to saying the humans were the least versatile or the most versatile depends on your perspective.

In PF the best example of human versatility is in racial stat bonus.

QUESTION:
Yet another set of Fast Learner questions...
1. Can a Half-Elf take this feat since they count as both Human and Elf?
2. Would these points apply retroactively? The feat doesn't state that they do, but other instances of similar effects are always retroactive...

OPINION:
I agree with mdt:

I reiterate, I think it's supposed to mean A) 1HP & 1SP, or B) FCA & One of 1HP or 1SP.

How would you split up the sentence to get to that conclusion?

When you gain a level in a favored class, [you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit] or [you can choose an alternate class reward.]

seems like the only way to split it up as far as I can tell.

When you gain a level in a favored class, [you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one] or [the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.]

That doesn't make sense to me. What does "the other benefit" refer to, if not the choice between +1 hp or +1 skill rank?

I'm sure we'll get a clarification, but I think the ARG has gone to the printer already.

How would you split up the sentence to get to that conclusion?

Quote:

When you gain a level in a favored class, [you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit] or [you can choose an alternate class reward.]

seems like the only way to split it up as far as I can tell.

Quote:

When you gain a level in a favored class, [you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one] or [the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.]

That doesn't make sense to me. What does "the other benefit" refer to, if not the choice between +1 hp or +1 skill rank?

I'm sure we'll get a clarification, but I think the ARG has gone to the printer already.

Yeah, there really should be at least a set of parentheses and a comma added to that sentence for clarity.

Fast Learner
Your progress gains extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank (instead of choosing either one or the other benefit), or you can choose an alternate class reward.

Ok, read up on alternate class features on Paizo’s PRD (that is not blocked).

What you are talking about is archetypes. Yes, knew about that, but I thought that would be separate from the favored class bonus. I mean you can still choose an archetype and use the favored class bonus. I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to do the same if you took the ‘Fast Learner’ feat.

With archetypes, you are replacing class features, the ones you gain when you level. The favored class bonus is separate of that.

Maybe I am just misunderstanding this.

Look under APG>Races>[particular race]>Favored Class Options.

Yeah, there really should be at least a set of parentheses and a comma added to that sentence for clarity.

((Parentheses make (everything)) better!)

Given the way Critical feat prerequisites work, I find Critical Versatility to be horrendously overpowered. No Human fighter would ever choose anything else, except to pair with it with Critical Mastery, or as a prerequisite.

I thought the same thing.

I currently have a crit focused figher and plan to take 4 different crit feats + crit mastery.

as it is now I can take crit versatility and one other. and get access to all of them.

having said that I dont think its game breaking.

I just wish it were not so fighter focused.

what about rangers or monks? or a caster versatility feat perhaps allowing a caster to have only 1 bad school instead of 2. Rogues, Summoners, witches. will there be one for every class or class type?

I don't actually use the alternative favored class things much but I mostly play at low levels where 1hp or skill point means a lot.

Look under APG>Races>[particular race]>Favored Class Options.

Ok, found it. Thank you.

@blue_the_wolf
are you aware that "Opposition Research" already exists so you've only got 1 bad school instead of 2, take it twice for no bad school (well you've got a malus on some checks perhaps, but they don't cost 2 spellslots)?
9th lvl wizard discovery out of the UM.

Remember this is just a preview of what is to come, something to wet our mouths until the book comes out. I am sure all of us will find out more specific details once the book comes out.

nope Richard didnt know at all.

just popping Ideas.

bottome line being it would be silly for racial feas to be so class specific. but like chris said. its JUST a preview.

I hope Changelings get a preview.

Majuba wrote:

Given the way Critical feat prerequisites work, I find Critical Versatility to be horrendously overpowered. No Human fighter would ever choose anything else, except to pair with it with Critical Mastery, or as a prerequisite.

I thought the same thing.

I currently have a crit focused figher and plan to take 4 different crit feats + crit mastery.

as it is now I can take crit versatility and one other. and get access to all of them.

having said that I dont think its game breaking.

I just wish it were not so fighter focused.

what about rangers or monks? or a caster versatility feat perhaps allowing a caster to have only 1 bad school instead of 2. Rogues, Summoners, witches. will there be one for every class or class type?

LV10 Eldritch Knights rejoice as their single level in fighter allows them to take this feat. Every time your BAB goes up as you level, simply change it to the best available crit feat

blue_the_wolf wrote:

Majuba wrote:

Given the way Critical feat prerequisites work, I find Critical Versatility to be horrendously overpowered. No Human fighter would ever choose anything else, except to pair with it with Critical Mastery, or as a prerequisite.

I thought the same thing.

I currently have a crit focused figher and plan to take 4 different crit feats + crit mastery.

as it is now I can take crit versatility and one other. and get access to all of them.

having said that I dont think its game breaking.

I just wish it were not so fighter focused.

what about rangers or monks? or a caster versatility feat perhaps allowing a caster to have only 1 bad school instead of 2. Rogues, Summoners, witches. will there be one for every class or class type?

LV10 Eldritch Knights rejoice as their single level in fighter allows them to take this feat. Every time your BAB goes up as you level, simply change it to the best available crit feat

Seems fair enough. He'll be at least 16th level in total, with a BAB that's 3 points behind the fighter anyhow, vs. an 11th level fighter.

It's fighter focused just so fighters get more happy happy joy joy.

It doesn't let you get any crit feats for which you don't have prereqs.

It doesn't let you use multiple crit feats during the course of a combat.

Is it a good feat? Sure. I'd hope so. You'd like to think high-level fighters can get at least a few nice things. Is this feat better than a 6th level spell that a cleric or wizard could get at 11th? Better than heal or disintegrate? Doesn't seem like it.

How would you split up the sentence to get to that conclusion?

Quote:

When you gain a level in a favored class, [you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit] or [you can choose an alternate class reward.]

You've parsed it correct, I simply don't think you're seeing it the same way I do.

[you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit] : Benefit of feat. Telling you that instead of having to choose between the two, you can take both.

or [you can choose an alternate class reward.] : Giving you an alternative to either half of the previous choice. In other words, I read the or as applying to each half of the previous option. For example :

A & B Or C : Can be read as you do, A list whose valid members is [(A & B), C]

A & B Or C : Can also be read as a set of [(A & B), (A & C), (B & C)] if the C part is actually applying the Or to A and B, not to A & B (IE: Or C applies to A, and Or C applies to B).

The problem is, the sentence is so poorly constructed that it honestly can't be said to be valid for either interpretation. Ergo, both are equally valid.

Again : Sentence needs to be taken out, shot, burned, chopped into bits, and buried at a cross roads with a silver stake through it's heart.

@blue_the_wolf

are you aware that "Opposition Research" already exists so you've only got 1 bad school instead of 2, take it twice for no bad school (well you've got a malus on some checks perhaps, but they don't cost 2 spellslots)?
9th lvl wizard discovery out of the UM.

Opposition Research can't be taken twice, if I'm not mistaken.

With the caveat, as always, that I don't provide official errata but only unofficial authorial clarification (and agreeing with several posters upthread who note that things sometimes, even often, DO get changed for all kinds of reasons between turnover and publication), my opinion on RD's questions would be as follows:

Does Martial Versatility/Mastery help me qualify for things?

Only things that require MV/MM as a prerequisite.

Say there is a prestige class that requires Weapon Focus (longsword). I have Weapon Focus (greatsword) and Martial Versatility (weapon focus).

Does that allow me to get into the prestige class as if I had Weapon Focus (longsword)?

No. You don't have the feat WF (longsword). You are able to apply the benefit of the feat you DO have (WF (greatsword)) to all weapons in the same group, which includes longsword. While the mechanical benefits are identical to having WF (longsword), you still don't have the actual feat.

Now, that stated, I'm usually in favor of martials having nice things, so I don't think there's any grave harm allowing it to serve as a prereq.

Also, what happens if a weapon falls into more than one group? Say I have Weapon Focus (trident), for example; does that mean that I would get a +1 bonus to hit with the weapons from the spear group AND the thrown weapons group?

Yes. Encourages you to take feats in versatile weapons, doesn't it?

What's more, if I have Weapon Focus in both the greataxe AND the greatsword, can I take Martial Versatility once (choosing Weapon Focus) to get Weapon Focus with ALL axes AND heavy blades?

This is a bit trickier to answer, because it depends on whether you consider Weapon Focus (greatsword) and Weapon Focus (greataxe) one feat or two feats.

As a GM, I'd consider it two separate feats, so you'd have to take MV separately for each. However, as I noted above, I think fighters should have nice things, and I think the more generous interpretation is also reasonable and acceptable.

And now, a bit of a digression:

I will say one of my motivations in designing these feats and similar ideas in the past was to help fighters be masters of all weapons, not super-specialists. As someone guessed upthread, it was also absolutely my intention to help break the terribly aggravating phenomenon of "neat, a +5 superawesome everything bane greatsword; too bad my character has invested 10 feats in falchion - SELL!" That just crushes the hearts of GMs everywhere, and hopefully something like this can make it easier for PCs to rationalize keeping neat-o-keen magic stuff they FIND rather than just grinding up all their loot into raw gp and crafting/buying tailor-made stuff.

FWIW, while the book suggests this as a feat for humans to reflect their great versatility, I think it's entirely reasonable to make feats like these available to fighters of any race. If you want to keep the human advantage with them, simply stipulate that humans can take them with lighter/earlier prerequisites. Likewise, if you want them available to other martials, stipulate an easier fighter-based prereq. So, you would have one prereq based on straight BAB (so paladins, barbs, rangers, etc. can take them at, say BAB +16 for Martial Mastery), another based on fighter level (maybe 14th or 12th), then lowest prereq of all for human fighters (12th, 10th, maybe as low as 8th if you really want to push human fighters as the kings of versatility). Whatever the fraction or discount you want to use, allowing alternate qualifications for a feat is a good way to help keep racial feats special and unique while still allowing the odd outsider to get in on the fun now and then.

A neat little thing that I didn't notice at first: Weapon Proficiency is a combat feat and therefore eligible for upgrading with Martial Versatility.

Another party trick on the table is to extend unarmed-strike-only feats to natural weapons or other weapons (it's in the close and monk groups). I'm not sure it can be applied to Perfect Strike, sadly, since that lists a small number of weapons rather than just one.