Jack "Feral" Garrison |
If that's how you feel then use this opportunity to get in the pipe and let my insane, traitorous character die for his stupidity. You don't have to save him. We barely know each other. You owe him nothing. Instead of cursing that you have to break character to save my ass why don't do what I have done and play your character right.
Othaniel |
He's not cursing that he had to break character. He's cursing what you've done. Specifically the fact that the first time you tried this, three of us stopped you. Then you went and did it again without the chance to stop you. That's just plain inconsiderate. I'm not angry with you, but I do think it was rude and I'm therefore letting you know that I think Tal may be justified in his anger.
At the same time, I think that Tal could have expressed it a little more constructively, but it is a little late for that.
Now, this ooc fight won't get us anywhere, so I suggest we drop it and move on to the one ic. Build ourselves into a team so this isn't a problem in the future.
Talman "Tal" Levie |
Tal is furious with you but he still considers you an ally and fellow soldier and is going to try to save your ass with all his might. I'm not breaking character at all, and I never plan to.
OOC, I've gotten over it entirely and am already enjoying the fight. In the moment, I was very annoyed with you OOC, but I'm past that.
Tal is not - but IC disagreements are actually really fun to play out. So the issue has been resolved. I actually am looking forward to this impossible group coming to trust one another - a bit like The Avengers. They are not an inherently compatible group by any means - they have to overcome their differences to become an effective team. This group is no different.
Dibs on being Hawkeye. Jack has to be Hulk. :P
Jack "Feral" Garrison |
Hulk. You know it.
I apologize for the conflict guys. Hopefully this will go smoothly from now on. But not too smoothly. That would be boring. The conversation in the lab before Banner goes Hulk is one of my favorite parts. Second only to the Hulk whipping Loki around like a ragdoll. Hilarious.
If this turns into a fight let's see what our broken-ass characters can do.
Talman "Tal" Levie |
*sigh*
I thought about why I was so angry again and I've figured out why your actions bothered me so much. I came into this game with the (perhaps unreasonable) expectation that it would be a mature-style game with people roleplaying as soldiers fighting for a cause of defending their homes and country. Perhaps we'd get some interesting roleplay out of it, and people would play tactically, knowing the high stakes of the mission and how dangerous it could be.
Jack's actions (and really, the attitudes of most of the group) seem to indicate that most of the players prefer a "big damn heroes/hack 'n slash" style of story, where they are infallible, they expect perfect success at all junctures, and can win any fight. Jack is rushing into a battle that he knows compromises the entire reason we're here. He's not worried, not careful, and not concerned at all that he has, realistically, doomed all of us to death and certainly failed the mission.
Sure, it's a game. I betcha that we survive - the players are the protagonists, after all. But there is no way in hell even one of our characters, no matter how much of a superhero Jack thinks he might be, thinks they're getting out of this alive without turning tail and running for the hills. Jack is living in a fantasy world, and I don't mean Golarion. Nobody that suicidal makes it to level four.
To make a long post short, I think we had very different expectations about what sort of game we wanted to play, and perhaps we should discuss that before my desire to play one type of game gets even more conflicted with your desire to play a different type.
I don't think I'm wrong when I say that Jack wants to repeatedly fight tough enemies and win against them in a triumphant and cinematic victory. I was just sort of hoping we'd play more like a realistic war story than a superhero adventure.
Goldmyr |
It think part of that comes from the kind of submissions I invited. Opening up pretty much all 3pp content gives people the incentive to bring the outlandish characters they normally can't play, whether because the character doesn't fit or because the stuff they need to make it is off limits.
I think you read into the intentions of the recruitment more than most of the people here. A war/espionage game was definitely the purpose, and I think it still is. Is it a "mature" game, we'll see what happens when we get into the city. At the very least, it seems the maturity to solve problems exists within our player base.
I feel that this engagement came mostly from a desire for something to happen, and perhaps we'll have to find a way to work around a lack of patience rather quickly. As for realistic, I try to portray combats as realistic, like professional soldiers setting up a signal for if they're obviously outgunned in a fight and need reinforcements. Actions will have consequences. That's the most realistic you can hope for, I think. Again, because of the kind of submissions the recruitment attracted.
I think all the characters in the game are awesome. I can see your names and, even without class or race being visible from the gameplay page, know exactly who everyone is. I like that Morphling could calmly explain why he had a problem with something. It's nice to see players working things out with thought. These are some good early signs towards a long lasting game.
Jack "Feral" Garrison |
You certainly bring up some valid points, with a few backhanded comments. But as the DM said, the builds we submitted and the starting level suggested an over the top fantasy adventure where we overcome odds heavily set against us with flying colors. You have two animal companions with full druid level on both, I am using tome of battle, and Tristan can hit almost as hard as a THW wielder and is still the Tankiest in the group. I really don't know how you could have expected anything different.
I admit I got caught up in the build rather than the story. Maybe a little more background on the war could put us in the appropriate mindset and once this battle is over we can get to some gritty roleplay about compromising the mission and risking everyone's life.
To clarify Jack's intent, you guys were talking for a while about how to get into the city and wasting a lot of time and magic to do so. That isn't his style and most likely never will be. So he helped in his own way. Cause a distraction. Only two guards came out, odds he could easily handle for a while, and going unarmed was unlikely to cause immediate attack. He could have distracted them for a moment and probably taken them down alone. But if not, had every intention of retreating.
As a compromise how about we get into the appropriate mindset and rewind a little? We go back to the point where he leaves to hail the guards and you guys do something other than charge to his aid. We probably have a rough idea of who the other men in this group are. At level 4 we are most likely, fairly renowned within the army. Anyone of us could probably take on a group of soldiers alone.
That or we rewind a little further and have a random encounter or two along the way to really get to know each other and establish some tactics. Maybe an enemy patrol or a forest drake. I want to keep playing and work through this.
Talman "Tal" Levie |
@Goldmyr, I agree completely. I am very glad Jack's player is as willing to discuss it maturely as I am, and that alone has removed my worries about the campaign. I don't care how much our characters might hate each other, if the players can get along, we're gonna do fine.
@Jack, I tried not to be backhanded. I meant what I said - I was pretty frustrated and it took me a few hours to figure out why. I'm willing to adjust my expectations of the game to meet the group - I'm not inherently opposed to a high-fantasy ass-kicking marathon (especially with this group), I was just going into it with a different thought process at first.
As far as rewinding, that's up to the GM if he's comfortable with it. I'm in favor of it - I don't like where this is going, and I hardly think we're going to escape this without some kind of deus ex machina.
Tal would have been fine with the 'distraction' if the group had known about it beforehand. Based on Jack's boasts, it seemed much more like he would foolhardily charge in and fight them alone, and Tal's never seen him fight. He's got no reason to suspect that Jack is the superhuman warrior his character sheet suggests - there's a lot more braggards who can't back it up than fourth-level powerhouses who can. He also figured that the guards would spot the group if Jack approached from their direction.
As for continuing to play, there is no question. I am loving the feel of this game. Actually, how cool it is probably contributed to how upset I became when I thought it might have been ruined by a crazed barbarian.
Jack "Feral" Garrison |
Well, to me, level 4 is when a character, any character really, begins to gain quite a bit of renown. I mean, in one more level wizards get fireballs and lightning. A barbarian has enough HP and feats to cleave through several enemies at once. If we don't specifically know of each other we have probably heard rumors like:
Tal has a pack of wolves.
Tristan is one of the best duelists.
Alexander charred a group of enemy soldiers.
Othaniel can put the primal elements into his talking blade.
Benedict can summon Cthulhu.
Yes, some claims are probably baseless or over exaggerated but all rumors have a kernel of truth.
We probably should have had a fight or two before hand to solidify the group. And as Jack suggested, a leader could make things move a lot faster, in and out of character.
Jack "Feral" Garrison |
Also, while we await GM decision, everyone should probably go over their character sheet again. At a cursory glance I see a few things:
-Tal is still missing personality, background, and appearance.
-Alexander's sheet is...confusing...and somehow he has 40hp.
-Benedict is still missing spells
All I got so far.
Talman "Tal" Levie |
We will also need to wait for the others' input on a rewind. If Goldmyr says it's okay but the others aren't interested, we shouldn't force the issue.
I will need to get my notes on Tal to get his backstory on the sheet but I will work on that tonight.
I would prefer a leader, yes. We're in an army - our commanding officer should have placed one of us in tactical command. It's weird to be a military team going into battle with no clue whose orders we should follow, or whose decisions take precedence.
Benedict Bishop |
I didn't really care about the 3pp thing (didn't use any), though I was interested in playing with Goldmyr's houserule around 4 books.
I also saw this as a very stealth heavy campaign - basically a special forces type thing, and assumed the guys we were up against were also going to be high level... or high CR in the case of Devils. Benedict especially is built as a guerrilla.
If Othaniel and Benedict (who haven't acted) could leave a "retreat, then come back at sunset tomorrow" message we could still use this as a distraction. We now know what the signal method is, so we could go through the tunnel, look around a little, and take out the archer with a silence spell at sunset tomorrow, letting the others get in.
On the other hand, I don't think there's any evidence that the devil's tomb is in the city, so potentially we just want to put one or two people in to get what info we can, and then get them out, and all go off together.
Benedict Bishop |
I'm really impressed with how well everyone is talking this out, by the way.
I guess I'm okay with some rewind if we need to, though I would prefer to try to go from here if we can see a good way to do it.
Talman "Tal" Levie |
If Othaniel and Benedict (who haven't acted) could leave a "retreat, then come back at sunset tomorrow" message we could still use this as a distraction. We now know what the signal method is, so we could go through the tunnel, look around a little, and take out the archer with a silence spell at sunset tomorrow, letting the others get in.
On the other hand, I don't think there's any evidence that the devil's tomb is in the city, so potentially we just want to put one or two people in to get what info we can, and then get them out, and all go off together.
It's not really the success of our mission I'm worried about - it's healing the rift between Tal and Jack. Tal is never going to trust Jack after this. He's going to assume that Jack is always a single impulse from ruining any plans the group makes, and is never going to feel like the barbarian can be relied upon.
I'm really impressed with how well everyone is talking this out, by the way.
Yeah. It's a very good sign.
Jack "Feral" Garrison |
It missed so this is probably a moot point but I don't know how I am taking an AoO at all. There is no way a dire rat has the CMD to stop me. Even if I moved through the square it was in should have made that Acrobatics check. I updated my profile to include the description of Sudden Leap from Tome of Battle. It allows a Tumble check, aka Acrobatics in Pathfinder, during the leap to avoid AoO. Odd though it may be it is justified.
Goldmyr |
You know what? I got the official pathfinder rules confused with a houserule of mine. In my houserule, Acrobatics checks to avoid AoOs while moving are treated more Ride checks with mounted combat with the skill check becoming the AC for any attacks of opportunity. I'm glad you drew my attention to that.
I'll be using the official rules for that from now on though.
Benedict Bishop |
It's not really the success of our mission I'm worried about - it's healing the rift between Tal and Jack. Tal is never going to trust Jack after this. He's going to assume that Jack is always a single impulse from ruining any plans the group makes, and is never going to feel like the barbarian can be relied upon.
So, given we've got multiple understandings of the game style, what is the game style? I thought it was Shadowrun/Leverage/Mission Impossible and built for that.
Goldmyr |
I'm winging it. Mission Impossible might be a good comparison. I'm guessing, based on actions thus far, that you'll be taking out soldiers in groups rather than trying to avoid combat. Of course, sometimes stealth will still be the best way to go.
Although it is good that you have capabilities in combat. The Devil's Tomb could be killer.
Benedict Bishop |
Alright guys.
They're not down. They're not about to be down. Reinforcements are coming from what is effectively an endless supply.
Time to call an Abort and run away, I think.
Benedict Bishop |
So I did.
I was getting pretty worried about them walking away from that AoO!
If Benedict has a full round he can summon a distraction. Guessing he does not, though.