Vivisectionist > Master Chymist in PFS play?

I am playing around with a new PFS-legal character and am interested in the Vivisectionist Alchemist, eventually going into Master Chymist. Of course, the question comes up as to whether the Master Chymist would advance the Vivisectionist's sneak attack or not. It seems like the general consensus for home games is "yes" but I'm wondering if it will be legal for PFS.

Would a Vivisectionist 7/Master Chymist 5 have +6d6 sneak attack (as a 12th level Vivisectionist) or only +4d6 sneak attack (as a 7th level Vivisectionist)?

Why would Master Chymist boost Sneak Attack? I don't see anything about it.

Vivisectionists get Sneak Attack in place of bombs. Master Chymist gets Bomb Thrower, which allows a character to add their Alchemist and Master Chymist levels together to determine how much damage their bombs do. But Vivisectionists don't get bombs at all, so Bomb Thrower would be totally worthless to a Vivisectionist Alchemist.

But how would you come to the conclusion that it would boost your Sneak Attack?

PFS has strict rules on what is legal and is not, and since there's nothing that says they stack, they wouldn't stack.

IIRC (and I can't promise that I do) it was officially ruled that master chymist does not boost vivisectionist sneak attack. I want to say it was discussed in a blog.

IIRC (and I can't promise that I do) it was officially ruled that master chymist does not boost vivisectionist sneak attack. I want to say it was discussed in a blog.

That's just so weird that it would require a ruling.

It's like if I played a barbarian/wizard, and then took eldritch knight, and assuming my barbarian levels would be fighter levels for Diverse Training.

Why would Master Chymist boost Sneak Attack? I don't see anything about it.

Because the master chymist is made to work with the alchemist.

The regular alchemist gets bombs

The Vivisectionist swaps out bombs to get sneak attack.

The chymist's bomb ability doesn't have anything to work with on a vivisectionist except the sneak attack.

Bruce Chung wrote:

Why would Master Chymist boost Sneak Attack? I don't see anything about it.

Because the master chymist is made to work with the alchemist.

The regular alchemist gets bombs

The Vivisectionist swaps out bombs to get sneak attack.

The chymist's bomb ability doesn't have anything to work with on a vivisectionist except the sneak attack.

Well obviously. But the player made a choice to lose bombs, so which would his now non-existent class feature be available with his substitute class feature?

There are lots of other examples, like what if I played a spell-less ranger? And then I buy the ioun stone that increases spell DC? Would that boost my replacement ability? Of course not.

Or if I am playing a gnome wizard, and I chose to play one of the Thalassonian specialists that loses illusion school. Would my race bonus to illusions go to my chose speciality school instead? Of course not.

Actually its nothing like that. (It would be more akin to asking the DM if the diverse training could count as barbarian levels rather than fighter levels and the bonus feats to be rage powers, which honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with outside of PFS.)

Sneak attack explicitly replaces bombs. It advances at the same rate as bombs. But it is for the melee version of an alchemist rather than the ranged version of the alchemist. Meanwhile, the prestige class that's custom designed for a melee version of the alchemist doesn't advance one of the main class features (for melee) of the alchemist but does advance the ranged version.

Let's be honest, if Master Chymist had been printed after vivisectionist, it probably would have advanced sneak attack. But it wasn't, and unless Paizo comes out with an FAQ to change the RAW, it doesn't.

Diverse Training does specifically say that if an Eldritch Knight has no levels in Fighter, that his EK levels count as Fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats, so he can still make use of the Diverse Training class ability even if he doesn't have Fighter levels.

Bomb Thrower is a completely unusable class ability for a Vivisectionist alchemist. There is absolutely no way for a Vivisectionist alchemist to utilize that particular class ability if it doesn't also stack with Sneak Attack.

To answer your question, reasons why I thought MC would advance SA: the Master Chymist class was published before the Vivisectionist Alchemist so they may possibly have not gotten around to updating the official description of it, but there may have been a blog post/ruling somewhere else that I was not aware of. Also, I am not aware of any other PrCs that have a completely unusable class ability so it made sense, in my mind, that if one of a base class's core abilities (bombs) got exchanged for another core ability (sneak attack) and a PrC that was specifically designed for that base class increased the original core ability (bombs) that it would also increase the replaced core ability (sneak attack.)

If Paizo wants Master Chymist to ONLY be for non-Vivisectionist Alchemists (aka Alchemists with Bombs), then one of the requirements to get into the PrC should be "ability to create bombs." As it is, only Alchemists can take the Master Chymist PrC, and that includes Vivisectionist alchemists since they meet the pre-requisites, but it would not be worth it for a Vivisectionist alchemist to take more than maybe a 1 or 2 level dip into the class since it will cause one of his major class abilities to stagnate (while a regular Alchemist would have no problem taking 10 levels in it.)

I'm sorry if this thinking doesn't make sense to you, but it did to me, which is why I asked if there had been some kind of ruling somewhere that I missed. I really was just looking for a yes or no.

Master Chymist definitely made me rethink my vivisectionist build, as getting multiple mutagens for no additional cost (other than dual personalities, that's not a cost, it's a feature!) is almost too good to ignore.

There's been more than a few times where I wish new stuff didn't come out to obsolete my current stuff. Such is gaming.

Well obviously. But the player made a choice to lose bombs, so which would his now non-existent class feature be available with his substitute class feature?

The one it replaced with the exact same 1d6, at the exact same levels. The sneak attack functions largely as if it were the alchemists bombs, so its a reasonable question to ask.

Its been asked 100's of times and i can't find an official answer. How replacement abilities interact with prestige classes is a little murky.

In the case of your barbarian eldritch knight they're seperate classes, not the same classes with a dovetailing ability.

Bruce Chung wrote:

Well obviously. But the player made a choice to lose bombs, so which would his now non-existent class feature be available with his substitute class feature?

The one it replaced with the exact same 1d6, at the exact same levels. The sneak attack functions largely as if it were the alchemists bombs, so its a reasonable question to ask.

Its been asked 100's of times and i can't find an official answer. How replacement abilities interact with prestige classes is a little murky.

In the case of your barbarian eldritch knight they're seperate classes, not the same classes with a dovetailing ability.

But as I said, if it's not stated, why would people assume it would replace? Just a pipe dream.

How about if I used Holy Vindicator with an Divine Strategist cleric instead?

My point is that is not published anywhere that subbed out abilities would get boosted by prestige class abilities that boosts the base ability. Sometimes it's because Paizo didn't think about it, others might be a specific design decision to make players choose. We don't know, and until they start doing that, I don't understand why people would assume those would stack onto the new class ability instead.

For the same reason people think that horseshoes of speed should work on a zebra.

But as I said, if it's not stated, why would people assume it would replace? Just a pipe dream.

How about if I used Holy Vindicator with an Divine Strategist cleric instead?

My point is that is not published anywhere that subbed out abilities would get boosted by prestige class abilities that boosts the base ability. Sometimes it's because Paizo didn't think about it, others might be a specific design decision to make players choose. We don't know, and until they start doing that, I don't understand why people would assume those would stack onto the new class ability instead.

You can come up with examples of unrelated class abilities all you want, but that really doesn't have any relevance to this issue.

I'm pretty sure that she is not assuming that these class abilities would stack. She's asking. That's the entire point of the thread. There would be no thread if she was just assuming they stacked.

For the record, here's why this is a valid question:
1) Master Chymist is a melee-focused alchemist PrC. It advances the alchemist's primary damage-dealing mechanism, Bombs.
2) It was written before the Vivisectionist archetype.
3) The Vivisectionist archetype is a melee-focused archetype that replaces one damage-dealing class ability (Bombs) with another (Sneak Attack) that advances at the same rate.
4) It seems logical that if the Vivisectionist had existed before the Master Chymist, the Master Chymist would have been written with that in mind and would have either advanced bombs or sneak attacks.
5) There have been other discussions on the subject, and people generally agree that they'd let Master Chymist advance sneak attack instead of bombs in their own games.
6) Thus the question, do they work together in PFS?

If the answer is "no," that's fine. There's no need to be rude about it.

Well right now it definately doesnt advance sneak attack, as its not spelled out in the prestige class description and it hasnt been errataed or FAQ'ed since the Vivisectionist came out so a PFS Judge would have to rule that they do not stack.

Its a problem of archtypes and prestige classes in general though, although rarely can a class trade out a core ability that the prestige class would normally scale, pretty much you can be a alchemist/master chymist for melee with bombs or a vivisectionist for melee with sneak attack but taking master chymist as a vivisectionist wont currently to advance sneak attack.

The next question that this thread is going to pose is since it doesn't advance Sneak Attack but states

"The destructive power of bombs appeals to the violent urges of a master chymist. Add the character’s alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine the damage done by her bombs."

Does taking levels in master chymist give vivisectionist back their bomb ability?

(I do not believe so but have seen this question asked a few times).

I would say no, since they don't have bombs.

It would appear to give them bombs, but at the reduced rate. I could see a rules lawyering way of saying it gave them back the bombs at their full rate.

Add the character’s alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine the damage done by her bombs."

Which would technically mean that a vivisectionist's alchemists level + his master chymist level= his bomb chucker level, even though the vivisectionist doesn't have any bombs.

As a more sane interpretation

0 + Master Chymist level= master chymist level bombs.

It definitely gives them bombs at a slow rate, by analogy to the way that regular/improved abilities work with archetypes. If you take an archetype which takes away the regular but not the improved ability, you get the regular ability when you would otherwise get the improved ability.

I think that this was clarified in the context of hexcrafter magi and spell recall, but it probably applies here.

The problem is master chmyst doesn't grant bombs per day, it only advances damage. Whether they get additional damage is irrelevant since they don't have any bombs to apply it to.

Master Chymst won't advance sneak attack damage either, it has it's own damage bonus in the form of Brutality.

Anybody else want to give a ridiculous reason why they should get the abilities?

I would say until it is officially written that it is up to the DM

Besides synergy and it might be only because Vivisectionist could not be taken into account when the Master Chemist was written, there is also the fact that it fits the reasoning given for Bomb Thrower: If the love for violence makes him better with explosives, he could as well improve his capability to eviscerate!(which would be how I would rule)
How does the Extra Bombs feat play into this, which is given to Alchemists in PFS as a replacement of Brew Potion?

My conclusion and solution: Prestige Archetypes!

There is an FAQ on vivisectionists and Brew Potion.

I would say until it is officially written that it is up to the DM

As a GM I trust that players know and understand the rules and apply them honestly. When people knowingly run questionable rules and put the burden on me as a GM to enforce it, that trust fades. I don't want to have to audit players or play 20 questions guessing if people are running questionable stuff. This kind of attitude greatly diminishes the appeal of GMing at conventions and random game shops.

Please don't do this, or suggest this kind of thing.

@Dennis Baker: That may be how you like to run your gaming table, but not all players are trying to cheat the system, and certainly not all GMs have the same opinion as you when it comes to house rules. Using an statement "as a GM" as your lead in seems to be saying that this is a GM-based opinion, not your own personal opinion.

Why no just leave it at "If your GM allows it in your home game, that is awesome. If not, find a new character idea to try. In PFS, expect the most strict rulings and no 'creative leeway' from the GM".

Master Chymist advances bomb damage, "Add the character's alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine the damage done by her bombs."
It does not give the Bomb(Su) alchemist ability, or stack with the # of bombs per day, or give the Brew Potion feat that PFS converts to Extra Bombs (which has a pre-req of the Bomb class feature).

If you pick up the Bomb ability by dipping Wizard(ArcaneBomber), then I believe that would increase damage with MasterChymist, as both of them stack with alchemist level (effectively 0 in this case).

If you have no bombs, you cannot advance bomb damage.

For the same reason people think that horseshoes of speed should work on a zebra.

Quit being silly! Animals lack feet in PFS. However, you might be able to fit a horseshoe around the neck of an ostriche or serpent. ;)

It should either advance SA or give 10 levels of bomb progression. (This is my opinion, in case the "should" didn't give that away)

Someone mentioned Diverse Training. If you went into EK with no Fighter levels, you STILL get the benefit, it's just stacking to a base level amount of "0."

That said, RAW it does not. Fortunately, Master Chymist is a weak prestige class that's worse than just advancing alchemist and getting the higher level discoveries and beastmorph, so avoiding it entirely isn't painful at all.
If you want to be Jekyll/Hyde, nothing prevents you from roleplaying the change that way.

@Dennis Baker: That may be how you like to run your gaming table, but not all players are trying to cheat the system, and certainly not all GMs have the same opinion as you when it comes to house rules.

The post was intended to be in the context of PFS where house rules are not allowed. Not sure if it was moved out of the PFS area after my post or if I just failed a perception check.

So yeah:

"If your GM allows it in your home game, that is awesome. If not, find a new character idea to try. In PFS, expect the most strict rulings and no 'creative leeway' from the GM".

Sean's post on this topic.

The answer is no, it won't increase sneak attack anything.

If you were a gnome and took the alternate racial favored class bonus for alchemist then you would have bombs for the master chymist to give damage to.

No, you would not. You don't have the bomb class feature to add half a bomb to.

No, you would not. You don't have the bomb class feature to add half a bomb to.

Correct.

Here'a fun possible build:

Race: Gnome (favored class: Alchemist, +1/2 bomb per level)

Wizard (Arcane Bomber) 1: 1 + Int mod bombs per day, choose an element for 1d6 damage, expend a 1st level spell slot to get +1 to hit with a bomb (probably only 2 per day, depending on Int bonus)
Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist) 8: 4 more bombs per day from favored class bonus, Sneak attack +4d6, two effects listed in beast shape II while using mutagen.
Master Chymist 10: Bomb damage increases to 6d6, 10 more bombs per day, tons of awesome mutagen abilities
Alchemist (Beast/Viv): One more level to increase sneak damage to 5d6.

The only thing that really makes this build not worth it is this line in the Throw Splash Weapon description: "Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature)."

So this means that you can't get the sneak damage with bombs. Ever. The Master Chymist's brutality would also not apply to bombs, since it only applies to simple weapons or natural attacks, and splash weapons aren't considered simple weapons... or martial... or exotic... they're in a clas of their own that doesn't require proficiency.

Still, if you're looking to make a Master Chymist that can throw a decent bomb, but still get sneak damage with his melee attacks, that's it right there.

There should be a discovery to give bombs back in case you traded them out, but only (Int mod)/per day uses and 1d6 base damage. That way you could modify it with other bomb discoveries if you really want them and the damage would stack with Master Chymist if you went vivisectionist to start.

There should be a discovery to give bombs back in case you traded them out, but only (Int mod)/per day uses and 1d6 base damage. That way you could modify it with other bomb discoveries if you really want them and the damage would stack with Master Chymist if you went vivisectionist to start.

Agreed, they did this with the Mutagen/Cognatogen discovery, they should have also included one for bombs. Sadly it doesn't exist as of now.

The mutagen discovery was a huge mistake IMO. Take away what is probably their most powerful ability, and then return it as a discovery? blah.

The cognatogen/ mutagen thing isn't really comparable because they are designed to be exclusive even if you have both. Having cognatogen as a discovery is pretty well balanced. You make the decision whether to prep a cognatogen or a mutagen and you are stuck with it until you spend an hour changing over.

Bombs plus sneak attack can easily mix. They nearly perfect complements to each other; one is great in melee and the other is great for ranged combat. It's a far more powerful combination and there is no deciding between the two, you use whichever is more appropriate at any given time. Much nastier.

As it is now, vivisectionist is a bit of a tough choice because you give up a fairly powerful ability, its still arguably over the top at that. If you took away the sacrifice, it becomes silly.

The cognatogen/ mutagen thing isn't really comparable because they are designed to be exclusive even if you have both. Having cognatogen as a discovery is pretty well balanced. You make the decision whether to prep a cognatogen or a mutagen and you are stuck with it until you spend an hour changing over.

Bombs plus sneak attack can easily mix. They nearly perfect complements to each other; one is great in melee and the other is great for ranged combat. It's a far more powerful combination and there is no deciding between the two, you use whichever is more appropriate at any given time. Much nastier.

As it is now, vivisectionist is a bit of a tough choice because you give up a fairly powerful ability, its still arguably over the top at that. If you took away the sacrifice, it becomes silly.

That's absolutely why it's imperative to set the damage low and never scale it up from vivisectionist levels. So you get the bomb discovery and can deal 1d6+int damage that doesn't go up from vivisectionist levels. Yeah with sneak attack you can do comparable primary (not splash) damage to a foe as a regular alchemist - give or take a d6. The single target damage is slightly higher and the splash is lower so the 11d6 (1d6 bomb/10d6 sneak) potential isn't game breaking.

If you go Master Chymist instead then your sneak attack progression stops but your bomb progression starts up, splitting the difference so you get again 11d6 primary damage potential (5d6 sneak/6d6 bomb).

Getting bomb back as a discovery would absolutely not enable 10d6 sneak/10d6 bomb combinations. Meanwhile, it would enable further bomb discoveries to be applied like smoke, entangling, blinding, etc. that could assist in getting the alchemist the sneak attack opportunities they crave in the first place. Win win.

Eh. Bombs have a ton of nice side effects which make them useful without doing a ton of damage. Vivisectionist isn't an archetype that needs an easy bump in power like that.

The easiest and most sensible thing to do would be to just have it continue SA progression. It's not a freebie. The freaking PrC never requires you to have bombs to enter. To then give a completely worthless class feature when it's designed solely for one class in the first place is pathetic. Why is stacking bomb damage more balanced than stacking SA damage? People are ok with it doing the former...

Please don't tell me it's not RAW. No one is claiming it is. But lots seem to have a problem with an extremely sensible houserule. And don't tell me PFS doesn't houserule. They already have once for Viv, in giving them... some crappy feat I don't recall... instead of Extra Bombs.

So... you think a prestige class that has full BAB, a scaling brutality damage bonus (+2 HP damage per/ 3 levels), and full sneak attack progression (1d6/ 2 levels) is 'sensible'?

So... you think a prestige class that has full BAB, a scaling brutality damage bonus (+2 HP damage per/ 3 levels), and full sneak attack progression (1d6/ 2 levels) is 'sensible'?

It does it for bombs, which as you stated earlier, were just as powerful. Why wouldn't it be sensible to do it for sneak attack?

Dennis Baker wrote:

So... you think a prestige class that has full BAB, a scaling brutality damage bonus (+2 HP damage per/ 3 levels), and full sneak attack progression (1d6/ 2 levels) is 'sensible'?

It does it for bombs, which as you stated earlier, were just as powerful. Why wouldn't it be sensible to do it for sneak attack?

Because Brutality doesn't stack with bombs, but it does stack with melee attacks you can apply sneak attack damage to. SA is more powerful for the Master Chymist than bombs are, IMHO.

Dennis Baker wrote:

So... you think a prestige class that has full BAB, a scaling brutality damage bonus (+2 HP damage per/ 3 levels), and full sneak attack progression (1d6/ 2 levels) is 'sensible'?

It does it for bombs, which as you stated earlier, were just as powerful. Why wouldn't it be sensible to do it for sneak attack?

Also, bombs are a limited resource, but you can arrange things so you almost always get sneak attack multiple times per turn.

Well, speaking as someone who talked his GM into letting the sneak attack damage continue from Vivisectionist into Master Chymist (around lvl 10/11) it gets pretty sick fast. It was a lot of fun as a player but I wouldn't blame my GM if he disallowed in the future. I was using a claw/claw/bite routine and ended up needing a handful of dice for each swing.

It's been a little while but I believe it was something like 4d6+15+5d6 per claw and getting the SA off was rarely a problem.

Well, speaking as someone who talked his GM into letting the sneak attack damage continue from Vivisectionist into Master Chymist (around lvl 10/11) it gets pretty sick fast. It was a lot of fun as a player but I wouldn't blame my GM if he disallowed in the future. I was using a claw/claw/bite routine and ended up needing a handful of dice for each swing.

It's been a little while but I believe it was something like 4d6+15+5d6 per claw and getting the SA off was rarely a problem.

there is nothing wrong with master chymist advancing a vivisectionists sneak attack damage. it further shoehorns you into melee combat. and flanking is as guaranteed as the internet assumes it is. it requires a really well coordinated group to pull off. there are various ways to ignore flank, various ways to shut down sneak attack. (a 2nd level spell called blur is a good example of this) and any turns you spend buffing give the enemy time to damage either you or a companion.

you might get off 9d6+15 to one target. but i imagine you are at least 10th level and spend multiple rounds buffing to pull that off. natural weapons are also ridiculously overpriced to enhance. and i am already assuming that power attack is a factor. you still aren't as dangerous as an archery focused fighter who happens to, 1. have over 20 times your attack range, 2 outdamage you by dealing damage in the rounds you spend buffing, and 3, potentially have better accuracy than you. oh wait, barbarians and fighters with 2handed weapons have 2 of those three advantages over you.

Well, this is no longer a problem for PFS play. It would be nice for other play if they said that the master chymist increased sneak attack as well, but that's the kind of thing you can houserule outside of organized play.

Kieviel wrote:

Well, speaking as someone who talked his GM into letting the sneak attack damage continue from Vivisectionist into Master Chymist (around lvl 10/11) it gets pretty sick fast. It was a lot of fun as a player but I wouldn't blame my GM if he disallowed in the future. I was using a claw/claw/bite routine and ended up needing a handful of dice for each swing.

It's been a little while but I believe it was something like 4d6+15+5d6 per claw and getting the SA off was rarely a problem.

there is nothing wrong with master chymist advancing a vivisectionists sneak attack damage. it further shoehorns you into melee combat. and flanking is as guaranteed as the internet assumes it is. it requires a really well coordinated group to pull off. there are various ways to ignore flank, various ways to shut down sneak attack. (a 2nd level spell called blur is a good example of this) and any turns you spend buffing give the enemy time to damage either you or a companion.

you might get off 9d6+15 to one target. but i imagine you are at least 10th level and spend multiple rounds buffing to pull that off. natural weapons are also ridiculously overpriced to enhance. and i am already assuming that power attack is a factor. you still aren't as dangerous as an archery focused fighter who happens to, 1. have over 20 times your attack range, 2 outdamage you by dealing damage in the rounds you spend buffing, and 3, potentially have better accuracy than you. oh wait, barbarians and fighters with 2handed weapons have 2 of those three advantages over you.

The most recent update to the PFS rules has made this thread a moot point, as the Vivisectionist archetype is no longer allowed in PFS play.

Edit: Definitely got Ninja'd