We Who Are About To Die... (Inactive)

Game Master Doomed Hero

I'm looking for a mechanic that allows me to attempt to foil the goblin drawing a wicked dagger and hurling it at my opponent. It sounds like maybe a combat maneuver would be the best way to do so, but I'm not really hugely familiar with them. (assuming that I can't draw my scimitar before he jumped towards us and just slice him up with drow racial trait:super scimitar skillz.)

Doomed - just in reference to out of control speed, 40ft this round and potentially 30ft next if I'm still out of control?

I think that instead of making a trip attack, a bull rush to knock him off the sled as he raises the dagger up over his head to throw would be pretty cinematic, if I could pull it off. Would that prevent the attack?

Also, do I have a grandstanding bonus from my standard action and preform check last round?

A bullrush (like most combat maneuvers) is a standard action (or a replacement for the attack action of a charge). It cant be used as an AoO.

A trip just replaces any melee attack, so that CAN be used in an AoO.

Chess, um, Disarm? Loric is right, Sunder, Trip and Disarm are the only maneuvers that can be used with AoOs

Lorth, basically, though now that Roo's feet are back under him (successful Acro check for balance), you can control his general direction. Speed is harder since Out of Control, for you (since you don't have a sled) is mostely about Magnus' feet not finding the proper purchase on the ice. You might end up having to hop straight up onto Ryujin's sled to avoid being run over if he's still going faster than you.

Aha! I can disarm the little gobo! That's perfect!

Ok, I have to ask a question about time, and round order. The way I see it, a round is all happening at the same time, and those with higher initiative just have faster reactions than those around them. Either way, if Chess saw Joboo flying towards him, his reaction would be to grab his scimitar, and let his dagger fall to the floor, and strike him as he landed(readied action?). Now, I don't want to meta-game this, and I've been really busy with school until now, so I need to ask if I should go ahead with those actions or not, or if that would be unfair and I should do something else or act differently. I apologize for adding to the rules fiasco here!

Are you asking because you have higher initiative than Joboo? Because in this format for ease of use and the sake of the story the traditional system of initiative isn't quite used (and I say that knowing that it's better for me if you have your scimitar out).

Chess you brought a good point about metagaming. Id argue this even if I wasnt the target of discussion but to spend a page of posts discussing one round's worth of actions and the plusses and minuses of each option is getting out of hand imo. Especially since the actions in quesiton are immediate in nature. Im pretty sure this was brought up earlier in regards to people waiting to see what everyone else was planning for the round before posting their actions just to get an edge. And helping with rules clarification is one thing but having a character thats not even in the proximity giving advice is beyond being unfair and completely within the realm of metagaming. This is one of the main reasons why I've stuck with my intial posted actions. I will accept whatever happens per DM DH's ruling without any grudges and finish this match but if every round in every match is going to be handled this way then I'm going to respectively withdraw from this game.

if he does something wrong (like tries to bullrush you with an AoO or tries to attack with a scimitar thinking he can draw it and then use it as part of an AoO), and we have to tap stuff back, that takes even longer.

Chess you brought a good point about metagaming. Id argue this even if I wasnt the target of discussion but to spend a page of posts discussing one round's worth of actions and the plusses and minuses of each option is getting out of hand imo. Especially since the actions in quesiton are immediate in nature. Im pretty sure this was brought up earlier in regards to people waiting to see what everyone else was planning for the round before posting their actions just to get an edge. And helping with rules clarification is one thing but having a character thats not even in the proximity giving advice is beyond being unfair and completely within the realm of metagaming. This is one of the main reasons why I've stuck with my intial posted actions. I will accept whatever happens per DM DH's ruling without any grudges and finish this match but if every round in every match is going to be handled this way then I'm going to respectively withdraw from this game.

I agree that too many rules questions gets tedious and I apologize for my part in it. The only reason I brought this up is because I didnt want you to be blindsided by an AoO that you didn't realize was possible. I hope you don't quit as you add a lot of fun to this game.

I will echo Mel's sentiments about enjoying Joboos contributions. I will also say that I did drift into advice territory instead of rules territory, and I shouldnt have done that. I apologize.

This is more of an initiative issue than a metagame issue. It's one of those things we just have to accept in this format.

As for the number of questions, that's one of the main reasons I decided to go to an every other day update schedule. I don't mind answering them, but they do bog things down a bit.

Well, I finally managed to hit something with my hair, but these monkeysheep are hard to control, hehe.

Mel, sorry to bug, but could I ask how you get a +8 to damage? I understand +4 from Intelligence and +2 from power attack. I'm just missing a +2 somewhere.

A few people forgot to place an x under round 7 in the Chariot Race map, I think Chess, Gwrrr and Zib (although maybe Doomed should do that since he's not in control of his movement).

I agree on the "let's ask less questions". Maybe we should all more often choose for some more solid actions, actions that require less mess (AND makes this more of a race! There's plenty of rounds left to get killed by steel... assuming we don't slam into a wall or get trampled to slush by angry monkeysheep).

Mel, sorry to bug, but could I ask how you get a +8 to damage? I understand +4 from Intelligence and +2 from power attack. I'm just missing a +2 somewhere.

Sure. When you have only one natural attack, even a secondary one like prehensile hair, you get to use your full BAB and you add 1.5 times your strength mod instead of your strength mod. Prehensile hair is a natural attack that uses Int instead of strength.

I have 18 Int, which is a plus 4 bonus. So 1.5 times my Int mod is 6. Plus two for power attack makes 8. It's legit. I asked a bunch of these questions in the rules forums before the game started.

And speaking of asking questions, iif multiple people are annoyed by so many questions (and I'm certainly the main questions asking culprit) I will ask fewer questions here.

First I appreciate that Mel and Loric dont want me to withdraw and I definitely dont want to. Joboo is having a grand ole time and really needed a home.

I have absolutely no problem with questions but Id say more than a couple before an action is too much. The others should be handled after the fact (ie what wouldve happened if...or could I have done this?...etc) And I stand by my statement that spending numerous posts in the OOC thread that are coordinating and collaborating a rounds of actions is metagaming. Especially if there is absolutely no dialogue IC.

But thats not how I understand natural attacks at all. Your primary natural attack would be with your hands (unarmed) with the prehensile hair as a secondary just like in its description. Meaning BAB -5 to attack and with only 1/2 of the Strength or in this case Intelligence bonus to Damage.

First I appreciate that Mel and Loric dont want me to withdraw and I definitely dont want to. Joboo is having a grand ole time and really needed a home.

I don't think anyone wants Joboo gone. I'd like to have a chance of kicking a goblin ninja from my sleigh (fat chance with that crazed monk close to me but at least I get to see him swat Joboo aside into the audience).

I actually looked that up and unarmed strike does not count as a natural attack. I can try to post the relevant text later tonight. Think about like, a Rhino for example (let's say a horn is a secondary attack, which I believe it is.) A rhino doesn't take a -5 to it's attack just because it could ineffectually try to smack you with it's foot (just as a non-proficient unarmed witch could try to smack you). I think what confuses people is because with monks their unarmed strikes count as natural weapons for the purposes of feats, magical weapons, etc, but unarmed strikes are still different from natural weapons.

Also, I have a suggestion that might reduce metagaming while also removing rules clutter from the discussion thread (freeing up more space for Muscle Wizard Science Class). It seems like DM DH doesn't mind fielding questions about actions, rules, etc. DM DH--Now that we have a PM feature here, could we just PM you questions about actions and rules? That way the people who are bothered by seeing all the rules questions won't have to see them in the discussion thread, and no one can metagame regarding other people's actions because they can't see the questions about people's possible actions.

Thoughts?

Ok that makes perfect sense Mel but I'll still argue that sense in the description of the Hex it specifically says that Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). that it should be treated as such.

and I think you used your one move action to pick the reigns back up so you wouldnt even get a drive check this round?

and I seem to have missed out on a line of discussion. Why cant we target those ahead of us in the initiative order?

and again I have no problems with questions. But it can get out of hand when there's repetitive 'can I do this?' and 'what happens if I do that?' before the action. In my tabletop game if I ever asked a similar question my DM would say 'Roll the dice and let's find out'.

You CAN attack someone ahead of you in the initiative list, but you can only do so if that person has already acted during the current round.

Since I'm at the very end of the initiative order, I could never be the very first person to act in the round, unless I take no offensive actions

...and again I have no problems with questions. But it can get out of hand when there's repetitive 'can I do this?' and 'what happens if I do that?' before the action. In my tabletop game if I ever asked a similar question my DM would say 'Roll the dice and let's find out'.

Honestly Joboo, that's what I was looking for. The first time I checked my computer yesterday around 6 or so (after about 10 hours of menial labor, furious scribbling of notes, and worst of all, painfully tedious titration) I was pretty tired and I'd missed all of this. I had to read that somehow, you'd leaped onto the cannon of my sled in the chaos. I did not see that coming, and there are no real clearly defined rules on that kind of movement! I did mean to seek advice on my actions, because I had no idea what I could and couldn't do with that! I appreciate the rules advice from other players, and I wouldn't consider any of that truly meta-gaming, either. If you have a new player at your table top group, and he asks about attacks of opportunities, you might spend 5 to 10 minutes explaining to him the complicated rules under ordinary circumstances. I am by no means a professed veteran of D&D and I still have questions, especially in complicated systems that are more role-playing than roll-playing.

And I apologize to everyone for writing so very much here. I missed alot, and I needed to sleep before I could gather my thoughts and throw in my two cents on all that I missed.

Are you asking because you have higher initiative than Joboo? Because in this format for ease of use and the sake of the story the traditional system of initiative isn't quite used (and I say that knowing that it's better for me if you have your scimitar out).

Yes, I was asking because of my initiative order, and my general confusion in attempting to understand what I'd missed.

Ok that makes perfect sense Mel but I'll still argue that sense in the description of the Hex it specifically says that Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). that it should be treated as such.

I remember way back when character creation was happening, Doomed ruled that it would be treated as a primary natural attack if it was the only weapon she was using. So she isn't just pulling that extra damage out of no where.

Before I take my turn, I wanted to know if my perform grandstand action from last turn netted me any bonuses?

Joboo wrote:

Ok that makes perfect sense Mel but I'll still argue that sense in the description of the Hex it specifically says that Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). that it should be treated as such.

I remember way back when character creation was happening, Doomed ruled that it would be treated as a primary natural attack if it was the only weapon she was using. So she isn't just pulling that extra damage out of no where.

now I feel like going through my character and trying to find a class feature or skill to have upgraded beyond RAW. Flavor or not; twisting clearly defined RAW especially in a PVP environment is simply not fair to the other characters unless they are equally balanced in turn.

and I think you used your one move action to pick the reigns back up so you wouldnt even get a drive check this round?

and on we go (it's hard, isn't it?).

but since I posted: Mel could use her standard action right? Confusing stuff! Can you drop reins (free action?) to make an AoO?.

Anyhooo, I'm just going with the flow. Trust in Doomed Hero to make it up to you in case he missed something (or Turn Back Time! *starts singing*)

:o

Chessna'ra wrote:

Joboo wrote:

Ok that makes perfect sense Mel but I'll still argue that sense in the description of the Hex it specifically says that Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). that it should be treated as such.

I remember way back when character creation was happening, Doomed ruled that it would be treated as a primary natural attack if it was the only weapon she was using. So she isn't just pulling that extra damage out of no where.

now I feel like going through my character and trying to find a class feature or skill to have upgraded beyond RAW. Flavor or not; twisting clearly defined RAW especially in a PVP environment is simply not fair to the other characters unless they are equally balanced in turn.

Dude, look at all the ability bonuses and racial abilities that a drow noble has. That would be like a 35 point buy for a human. This game is clearly more about character / story than rules / balance. Not a complaint about Chess, btw. I love the character.

I mean, IMO, even a straight up Orc barbarian like GWRRRR is going to be way more powerful than say, a half-Orc barbarian in 95% of the stuff we do in this campaign. Orc ferocity on top of barbarian rage is CRAZY! Particularly at low levels. At least for me, I just made an antipaladin cause I thought it would be fun. I certainly don't plan to win pretty much any of my fights. :)

Unless I have a one on one fight vs a good aligned character. Then I'll smack the s*+$ out of him. ;)

Joboo, just wanted to say that, while I did check with the DM before the campaign started, even RAW my interpretation is correct. Here is the wording about secondary attacks.

Note that unarmed strikes are NOT the same as natural attacks:

I agree that my hair is a secondary attack. But look at the part I bolded. When you only have one natural attack, it is always made at full BAB and deals 1.5 times Str mod as damage.

I knew these rules were complicated and I had never used any of these combos before, so I have checked about all of these questions in the rules forums here before the game even started.

As far as your drive question goes: It seems to me like other people during this game have driven (meaning grabbed the reigns and steered) as a move action (after moving up into the driver's seat, so to speak). I don't think I have to spend a move action solely to grab the reigns, but I could be wrong (not that it matters all that much, as I failed anyway).

I'm disabled, so I only get one standard or move action per turn. I assumed that it was a move action to grab the reigns and steer, but I could be wrong.

I'm disabled, so I only get one standard or move action per turn. I assumed that it was a move action to grab the reigns and steer, but I could be wrong.

Sorry, meant to quote Lorn's question in this post.

If that were truly RAW then any humanoid besides a monk would get to use that Hex as a Primary weapon and the description would state it thusly. If you have special permission is one thing but I would never read RAW for that Hex in that way. Like I said it specifically says that its used as a secondary weapon. That's it. No reference to other rules, no mention of how if its your only natural attack it becomes primary or what not. But its all moot per DM DH's wish granting.

I have no idea what others have done with their moves. At negative HP you only get one. DM DH said that unless you have Quickdraw or somesuch its a move action to regrab the reigns. Lorn had a good question - do you get to use a free action (dropping the reigns) in order to get an immediate action (AoO)? seems a stretch but everything in this game is getting that way.

Im begining to think that we should post our entire rounds of actions behind a spoiler tag and not peek at others before posting theirs. Then let DM DH sum up the ensuing chaos.

There's any number of ways a humanoid would have a natural attack. Those bird men have a beak attack. Some orcs have tusks. I could list more if I wanted to take the time to look up more examples. That is why hair is secondary. Cause if you have claws or a tail or horns or whatever, you are getting a -5 to hit with (and less dmg done with) your hair. But if you have no other nat. attks, you don't take the -5 to hit or the lesser dmg, despite the fact that the hair is secondary, per the rules. The hair isnt "becoming primary" or anything like that, it's just that in this instanc the drawbacks of being secondary are ignored. Based on what Mel posted, it seems pretty cut an dry to me

Sorry to keep up this discussion, but I feel like you believe I'm getting away with something or whatever so I want to address your comment. The truth is that I agree with you. I don't like to mess with RAW and I think we should stick to it as much as possible.

But if you look at my post, that IS the RAW. RAW means "rule as written". I posted the word-for-word rules regarding secondary attacks. Prehensile hair is a secondary attack. If you look at the wording, it says that if you have only one natural attack, it is still considered a secondary attack, but you get full BAB and 1.5 times Str (or in Prehensile Hair's case, Int mod).

"Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls."

If you have more than one natural attack, secondary attacks are -5 to hit and only 1/2 Str mod. If you only have one natural attack, it's regular BAB to hit and 1.5 times Str.

Perhaps you are wondering why, for this hex, they would make it a secondary attack if a witch is just going to have one natural attack anyway (and, thus, get full BAB like a primary attack). The answer could be because if you took the Nails Hex and Prehensile Hair, both would be -5 to hit.

I assure you, though, my interpretation of how the Hair works is both consistent with RAW and with DM DH's ruling. The only reason I asked him before the game started was because it's his game, so if he was going to house rule it differently I would want to know (though it would severely nerf my character).

And if you think about it, is the hex really overpowered? I could have taken slumber and spammed Sleep at will on anything. Instead for one minute per day I can make an attack with my hair at +4 to hit, 1d3+6 damage with a 10ft reach weapon. Look at everyone else's damage potential and see how small mine is compared to most people's Heck, Zarzan is a pseduo-caster type and threw a sword at me for 1d8+6. I don't think that's overpowered, and I don't think my hair is overpowered.

Ok, semi-rant over. :-)

What kind of action is it to tie a rope? Would there be a check to determine how secure it is? Do you miss Use Rope?

Hey Ryujin, I saw that you said you wanted to add 5 ft to the speed, but if the marker you placed is for the monkeysheep positioning, I think you added 10 ft. I believe the diagonals go 5ft/10ft/5ft/10ft etc. I think if the target square was 1 to the right, that puts us at 55 ft.

DM DH Ryujin made a ride check and wanted to add 5 ft to our speed, which I believe adds to the difficulty for ride and balance, right? Does that mean balance will be harder this turn or not until next turn? I just need to know what my acro difficulty is before I post my turn.

Also, if I use aid another to be a "back seat" driver and try to help ryujin on his ride check, would the bonus for him (if I succeed) kick in next round, because he already acted this round?

You are right, I just messed up, thanks! I fixed it

Ok you all make really good points and after rereading it you are absolutely correct. I got stuck on one part of the description. I humbly apologize and retract my arguments. I was actually adding to the very thing I was complaining about and there's no excuse for it. There wont be any more crying from little, snaggle toothed gobbo.

ill be out tutoring for a couple hours. i was hoping to hear a response from DM DH so i could take my turn before the round update.

if i get back and you still havent had a chance to respond, ill try to do a turn anyhow.

I'm in the same boat as Loric. I'll post without an answer if I don't get one before I would head to bed for the night.

Joboo, Mel's right on this. Thanks for reviewing the rules. The wording on Natural Attacks is confusing. Basically, when you use a single natural attack, you get full BaB and Str 1.5. If you use it in addition to any other weapon, you take it at a -5.

Mel, grabbing the reigns (or any other unattended object) is basically the same as drawing a weapon. It's a move action. In this case I'll let you grab them and steer as one action. I'll just add a small penalty for doing it "hastey".

Karlov, tying rope could be any number of skills depending on what you're trying to do with it. Profession: Sailor springs to mind as the most versatile, but I could see Climb, Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Craft: Trapmaking, Survival, or even Disable Device being applicable (depending on your end goal).

Loric, yes, the Drive DC is equal to the Balance DC. Both checks happen the same round. (otherwise things get confusing)

Round update in 4 hours (to accommodate Sir Loric's tutoring)

What is the Acrobatics check to move again? I'm pretty sure Zar'zan fell again. Also, do we have to make a check for each move that round or just one to move entirely?

Think of it like Grease. It's difficult terrain (because of the depth of the snow)and you have to roll it every time you move (because slippery).

If you choose to move carefully (1/4 normal speed) I'll give you a +5 on the check.

Could I by chance get a hard number so I know when I fall?

And for every time I fall, do I roll a random number to find out which square I fell in again?

Would being large by chance give me a bonus?

Hey DM DH, I think you may have missed Chess' question. He wanted to know if his Perform check std action from last round nets him a grandstanding bonus this round. I think he's waiting to take his turn too.

Chess, sorry I missed your question. One always seems to slip through.

Your performance wasn't quite good enough to net you a bonus.

ZZ, it's a DC 10 Balance check to move. If you fail we roll randomly to see where you were when you slipped.

So a d3 as there is the square he is in and then two squares he tried to move through or into?

Yes

DM, I just failed my balance check by 2 or 3 points. What sort of penalty does that net me, and when does that penalty happen? This round, or the next one, like a failed driving check penalty?

Wow, that was an amazing turn that the Muscle Wizard just took!

Zarzan, I dont think can walk toward me i hooked onto a sled and have sice let go pretty much making me a flying gnome to wherever the DM decides, I hope people heard my yell to catch me :P