emptying a firearm?

Is emptying a firearm a free action? Does it depend on the firearm at all?

Emptying it meaning unloading it without firing it?

It's at least a move action. This isn't your automatic baretta where you drop clips to the floor to make a cool action shot. It's a flintlock, which doesn't play anywhere near that way.

And/or a revolver. Or a rifle. Or a shotgun.

I'd rule as long as it normally takes to reload it.

That's with my complete lack of knowledge of how old style guns unload. Includes paper catridges.

And/or a revolver. Or a rifle. Or a shotgun.

Certainly a fine point. With those, it should be relatively easy to load and unload (it is still rather manual...but you can pump bullets in at as many shots you get per 6 seconds anyway, so meh)

But with flint locks, it might be trickier. I mean, it works by packing in a bullet cloth, and gunpowder all the way down the barrel. It seems like a long and involved process where you fingers and eyes are very, very, VERY close to the end of the barrel. Personally, I would just fire it (or hand it to an authority to fire in case you are asked to unload due to diplomatic reasons)

So, while forum goers tend to dread them, I think we need someone that actually know about old style guns and their proper care in order to get more involved with this. Since this is very likely due to RP things, I think you should just ask your GM to simple skip over that bit and go straight to unloaded.

Personally, I find it's easiest to unload them in a shopkeeper's face. Just tell everyone he was Lawful Evil, and that you're going to return all his loot to the victims he robbed from. You'll be a hero until you skip town.

@Vamptastic yes without firing. i had a player today need to load a special ammo in the middle of a combat.

@LazarX as Vamptastic pointed out, some firearms are much quicker to reload. that's why i asked if it depended on the gun.

@lemeres i am the GM, that's why it was important to me to get an official ruling. unfortunately i don't know where to find one. if one does not exist i will rule that modern firearms are swift and black powder is a move equivalent, but thats not really how i like to do things.

I shoot muzzleloaders. The simplest and safest way to remove the ball and powder is to fire the gun.

If you manage to load a ball without powder you can either use caps to fire the ball out (in the case of a caplock) or push powder through the touch hole (in the case of a flintlock, can also be done with caplock if you remove the nipple).

Finally, if all else fails, you can use a ball puller which is a sharp screw that you attached to your rod. You drill down into the ball and pull it out.

Since muzzleloaders are not modeled with any level of realism in Pathfinder (1+ shots per round is very unrealistic) I would suggest using the "clearing a misfire" action.

I shoot muzzleloaders. The simplest and safest way to remove the ball and powder is to fire the gun.

If you manage to load a ball without powder you can either use caps to fire the ball out (in the case of a caplock) or push powder through the touch hole (in the case of a flintlock, can also be done with caplock if you remove the nipple).

Finally, if all else fails, you can use a ball puller which is a sharp screw that you attached to your rod. You drill down into the ball and pull it out.

with this being the case i believe i will rule that unloading modern firearms is swift and unloading anything else is stupid lol. ill just explain it like you said so my players know that its just not feasable, and certainly not in combat

jimibones83, there is realistic and then there is Pathfinder.

In Pathfinder you can fire a muzzleloader a minimum of once a round (6 seconds) but realistically the fastest shooters would manage once every 20 seconds (about every 3 rounds) or so.

My suggestion is to use the misfire rules just for simplicity and in keeping with the general Pathfinder rules.

Gauss, I doubt 10 people on this board have ever shot black powder and me I have only shot it cartridge. Yeah, reality doesn't mean much with Pathfinder gun rules, but I would agree with the misfire interpretation. When my gunslinger found a revolver I got out one of my SAA's as a prop. The players thought it was neat. Most had never seen one.

For what it's worth, there's some historical evidence for musket loads that used bolo-style projectiles, essentially one round stacked on top of the other in the barrel, with wire between.

I can't help but think that the effective range would suffer quite a bit, but I'd personally allow a second reload action at whatever speed the PC reloads at to load a second (I'm assuming magic or special material) slug in a muzzle-loading weapon. Maybe double the range penalties for the shot, or half damage per slug?

Your call though.

brvheart, I have 3 black powder guns (50cal single shot pistol, 50cal rifle, and double barrel 12gauge) all of them caplock but I have also fired flinters and even a few cannons. Oddly enough, I own absolutely nothing in the way of a modern firearm.

P.S. I also have a recurve bow and wont touch a compound bow. :)

You have a gun loaded with powder and bullet but you need and alchemistic cartridge like entangling shot. That can be a possible situation for unloading a weapon without shooting it.

There is no RAW answer and as a houserule i would use the same action for loading and unloading a weapon.

An action "slower" than loading (Free action to load = move action to unload) seems more realistic but it should not occur very often in common games so keep it short and simple.

I also shoot muzleloaders. have 50 cal and a pistol hat needs repair but i would love to get my hands on an old style flintlock.

For what it's worth, there's some historical evidence for musket loads that used bolo-style projectiles, essentially one round stacked on top of the other in the barrel, with wire between.

I can't help but think that the effective range would suffer quite a bit, but I'd personally allow a second reload action at whatever speed the PC reloads at to load a second (I'm assuming magic or special material) slug in a muzzle-loading weapon. Maybe double the range penalties for the shot, or half damage per slug?

Your call though.

Oh, I've heard about those bolo shots. It was a cannon ball cut in half and chained together. The idea was to do as much damage to immobilize enemy ships with it by having the weights pull the chain taught and have it hit mast.

I can't imagine that working with anything smaller than a cannon though. As a general rule, although it might seem strange, bigger means less likely to fail with early blackpowder weapons. Just part of the crude nature of premodern metallurgy (although I somewhat doubt you could get such a wire to work without anything short of carbon nanofibers anyway)

Anyway, with the unloading: how about a fullround action on early firearms that uses a roll that risks a misfire? Possibly calling it a 'discharge' instead...which would happen while they are staring down the barrel. This would help show how risky such a move would be.

aboniks wrote:

For what it's worth, there's some historical evidence for musket loads that used bolo-style projectiles, essentially one round stacked on top of the other in the barrel, with wire between.

I can't help but think that the effective range would suffer quite a bit, but I'd personally allow a second reload action at whatever speed the PC reloads at to load a second (I'm assuming magic or special material) slug in a muzzle-loading weapon. Maybe double the range penalties for the shot, or half damage per slug?

Your call though.

Oh, I've heard about those bolo shots. It was a cannon ball cut in half and chained together. The idea was to do as much damage to immobilize enemy ships with it by having the weights pull the chain taught and have it hit mast.

I can't imagine that working with anything smaller than a cannon though. As a general rule, although it might seem strange, bigger means less likely to fail with early blackpowder weapons. Just part of the crude nature of premodern metallurgy (although I somewhat doubt you could get such a wire to work without anything short of carbon nanofibers anyway)

This is actually specifically for muskets, rather than cannon. Photo included.

Lead shot would have been used for a handheld firearm like a pistol, carbine or musket. It could also be packed in a bag or wooden canister and fired from a cannon. Two canisters of shot have been found on the Avondster, as well as quantities of loose shot. Shot connected with a copper wire has been found, both loose and in the canisters: very effective to cut rigging and wound people.

I've fired both percussion cap and flintlock rifles but only observed matchlocks being fired. The tool used to remove an unfired round is a cannon worm or for smaller guns, a gun worm. Both are rather like a corkscrew on a stick.

I've fired both percussion cap and flintlock rifles but only observed matchlocks being fired. The tool used to remove an unfired round is a cannon worm or for smaller guns, a gun worm. Both are rather like a corkscrew on a stick.

And since a gunsmithing kit works on the same "it just works, we don't care about specifics" principle as a spell component pouch, I presume that it includes a gun worm.

Maybe as a screw on attachment to the usual ramrod for loading (so you don't have to carry around two sticks long enough to to go down a musket barrel). But that is of course not necessary, but is seems like a possibly interesting device to have.

Is it safe to assume that what you are doing when you repair after a misfire is unload I g the weapon? Is that all there is to repairing a misfire? If so you could just rule that unloading is the same action as repairing and has the same time constraints