Well.
I'll remember when I'm revising your adversaries! :P
/Homer Do'oh!
I don't think power or flavor should ever come at the expense of each other. Stormwind Fallacy, etc.
I understand that the mechanical reality is that it is often necessary to make the choice, but the best options in the game, to me, are the ones that provide interesting storytelling tools and solid mechanics.
The Dreamweaver is awesome, but its also chalk full of amazing story fuel. That's why its one of my favorite archetypes.
It's just a matter of different opinions. :)
No one is really wrong or really right. xD
I do like flavor over mechanics/power though. :D
Do you feel that you should have to pick one over the other?
Why not have both?
Do you feel that you should have to pick one over the other?
Why not have both?
I'm still to meet someone that is able to do it. I mean, have both and be good at it. :)
Ok, I wrote up a huge post and ignored my own rule about always writing them in something other than the forum software, and it got eaten...
sigh
Anyway, the short and sweet of it, without all of the wordy explanation, is this:
The Dreamweaver archetype hos lots of flavor, and I do like it a lot. It's power, however, is very reliant on DM interpretation, and tends to be situational, even then.
Power and fluff do not necessarily come as opposite ends of a sliding scale, but the game mechanics often make one choose one over the other. Also, the kinds of personalities that attract one to the game versus storytelling aspects tend to make one care more about one than the other. Of course there are exceptions.
Whether someone should orient themselves towards fluff or power depends on the DM and the other players, but what each person likes is a personal thing, and there is nothing wrong with either side.
Characters without a minimum level of fluff are bland, but if you're playing this for the game aspect, then it doesn't matter, and the weak fluffy character in the party is just going to slow you down and almost die all the time, and tend to be viewed as drains on money and XP.
Characters with a minimum power aspect are weak, but if you're playing this for the storytelling aspect, then you don't care. But the power character is going to tend to overshadow the other characters or force the DM to raise the difficulty level, making everything much harder for the rest of the party. Which ends in either character death or making characters more combat viable, which can both be seen as a negative impact on story.
Clearly, the best solution is somewhere in the middle.
Now, expand that about 5 times longer, fill it with fluffy words, great examples, more mentions of edge cases, and lots of use of italics, and you'll have something resembling my original post.
sigh
Sounds like I agree with your original post. Hard to be sure though. ;)
Oh s$+$. I was going to ask if you guys were waiting something....
I just saw that the post I made yesterday was eaten. Will post again. :(
-Posted with Wayfinder
So what is it Nahia. An ice elemental. I should be good against those
Mysty, just be careful with player knowledge.
Even that it may be obivious for us that an Ice Golem may take more damage from fire, Mysty does not know that.
More than that, Ice elementals are not conventional monsters, you should avoid any precise monster naming without having met it or doing a knowledge check planes to know about it and it's weekness.
In the golem's case, you need a knowledge Arcane, that I rolled for you and you failed when you first saw the monster.
It's not helpless, It's just doing nothing.
Alright.
So the statue isn't immobile then, and is moving to at least block and defend itself?
That wasn't the impression I got. I think it's just sitting there and we are bashing on it.
If it isn't resisting it should be pretty easy to kill, but it is a golem (or something), so who knows.
ya kinda confused as to how it's not helpless. I mean it sounds like its basically in the same state as paralyzed or sleeping target... but if it keeps not attacking Should be okay to put down quick-ish
Maybe it has a swarm of crows inside that will burst out when we smash it!
@Questions.
Well, I was not considering your chance to hit, in those first rounds; all attacks had no chance of missing.
Why I would not let you coup de grace it? Simply; tell me how you coup de grace a door or a stone.
Anyway, I was treating it, in those first two rounds as an object, with an ‘audible’ message that none of you was able to hear. :)
Mysty attacks the golem, leading with her dagger, feinting with it, (...)
Okay, help me here.
Golems are mindless creatures, incapable of complex thoughts or strategies.
That being said, it’s the first time while I DM that someone actually tried to bluff his way with a Golem.
My first thought would be to say it does not work, but then again, my opinion of golem is highly biased in those almost immune golems form 3.5.
So, here is the question:
Any reason why a mind trick should work in a mindless creature?
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well, it is a construct which are subject to sneak attack and criticals, so there is no reason a coup de grace would not work. The RAW doesn't say constructs are immune either.
Think of it this way with your rock example. The difference between a rapid hit, and a carefully considered blow, striking at a weak point or flaw, or even with just more power to the blow because it is none combat. As for the door example, striking at the lock or hinges in a careful considered way will open a door in short order. Of course as far as I know you cannot crit an inanimate object.
Having said that you're the GM. Besides we never got the opportunity anyway.
I still don't agree with Paizo turning the golems and undeads into something subjected to sneak and criticals. But that’s a whole different matter.
Well, that's my point.
It's a controversial subject.
In that case, I was considering since it was not moving, that it was an auto hit, no matter how low you were rolling.
Because, what’s the difference between a golem and a statue? The knowledge about it?
Anyway, as I said Mysty, that was my first thought about this situation. It does not mean however, that I’ll arbitrary says it does not work. Hence I’m asking here, help me out. :D
Anyway, I want to sort this out, since things like this may happen again in the future. :)
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Well golems are generally protected by an awesome anti spell defence, construct traits and a fairly decent damage reduction. I don't know the stats of this one so I am assuming here.
Personally I like that sneak attacks and critical hits affect undead and constructs. I makes sense to me that occasionally you get effective hits against these creature types. Any solid object should be subject to it.
To remove the capability means that classes like the rogue become useless in combat against them.
Anyways in future...
Rule changes
Golems are assumed to see and hear, so they will always get a perception roll, albeit not a good one. You could give a bonus to that (due to unsleeping, untiring vigilance. Say +5.
You could double their damage reduction, but make them very weak in some way. For example, in the original legend of the golem it was indestructible unless you rubbed out part of the symbol/work on his head, changing it from truth to death (I think?) That would not be easy to do.
These will of course have problems of course.
You could run with the rules as stated. Golems are quite effective monsters, and you can play with variants. For example in book two of the carrion crown I believe there are multiple types of flesh golems. You can also give them the advanced type for the extra tough effect.
Golems could have a self defense clause, meaning they, unless ordered not to, will act in their own defense.
You can also play with the hide the golem trick. This works best with stone golems, but can be used by others. Have statues of the golem all over the place. The party will never know which one is real until they break all of them. Then put them on a countdown to something.
I hope this helps
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some of the damaging object rules are dumb. How do you breach a castle? A high level barbarian (twelfth or so) hacks his way through the stone wall with his two handed sword
Assume strength 24, +2 weapon, power attack.
average damage is 31 points per round (7 weapon + 10 strength + 12 power attack).
stone has a hardness of 8 and 15 hp/inch. so the stone takes 23 points a round. assuming a ten foot thick wall so 1800 hp for the wall.
That's about 79 rounds on average. that is a bit under eight minutes.
This is being a bit silly, but does show the problems with the system.
-- Regarding criticals and sneak attacks --
I never had a problem with allowing that. Criticals are just good blows, usually on weak spots. When used on constructs I see that as meaning cracks or thin spots in the material, or maybe seams between the articulated plates.
Sneak attacks are the same way, just blows against ‘vulnerable’ spots, a more general form of its predecessor, the backstab.
And while I’ve never run into a situation where someone had the opportunity to coup de gras a golem before, I don’t see a problem with that. Have you ever had to open an electronic enclosure that didn’t have screws because it snapped together in one piece?
To me, regular attacking is like stabbing it quickly and repeatedly with your screwdriver: yes, it will get it open, but it isn’t easy and it might take a while, especially if it is metal.
A coup de gras would be finding the seam and forcing the screwdriver into it before levering it open. It’s much easier and much quicker, but requires more precision.
Besides, golems tend to be pretty nasty. And while this is not at all RAW, I used to allow disable device checks as a maneuver against them to cause status effects. Just cause I thought it was a neat idea.
-- Regarding attacking a wall --
I think the problem is one of expectation. First of all, that’s a 24 strength. To put that into perspective, if you were leading a battering ram against the wall, that is 3 people with 14 strength, or 7 people with 12 strength.
Also, remember that that is not the time to take down the wall, just to open up a 10’x10’ section. Also, there is always this line:
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
So it is questionable whether a sword, and not a combat pick, would work to being with.
Also, if he gets a magic sword, why doesn’t the wall get magic too? Making it a section of enchanted wall will double it’s HP and hardness.
But yeah, it is still kind of ridiculous.
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I agree with you on the critical hit issue
As for the wall
Well I did say it was a silly example. Unless the weapon was adamantium or vorpal...hmm lets not go there. lol
And actually that is less than a ten foot by ten foot area. (only 6 foot deep) Pathfinder, like 3.5 doesn't worry about volume much. And I didn't know about the ineffective weapon rule, I was channeling 3.5 I think. If I am GM I just say something on the line of "If you do that, you will simply wreak your weapon for no real result. Oh, and the noise alerts the guards." Players learned to fear my guards.
Your attacks have damaged the golem. It has some cracks, it however, don't appear to be near destruction.
Someone should try moving the item. The dice are hating Hound.
How about the metal shape? Could I, for example, grab it and toss it down the ladder hole?
We seem to be all about quirky cases of rules atm, so figured I would add one to the bunch! have fun Aku!
When you said you were raising a zombie, I was really hoping it would grapple the metal alarm thing. ^_^
Just one more thing: I hate to be the bring bad news, however you guys miscalculated something:
The silence effects ends just a bit before Hound action, or we can say at the same time. Seren delayed her initiative, meaning that there'll be a half excited heartbeat between the end of the effect and seren turn, and in that half excited heartbeat, the golem acts.
What will happen?
Will our villains be able to accomplish their planes?
Will the alarm be sounded?
To discover that and much more, keep reading our game!
Wait! I'm calling Shenanigans on this. Silence lasts 3 rounds. I cast it just prior to Hound on Round 1. so First round of silence takes me to just prior to Hound Round 2. Second Round of silence takes me to Hound Round 3. 3rd (and Final) round of silence takes it to just before Hound round 4. So silence will be in effect until just AFTER Seren goes this Round.
Granted this Completely my bad on my very first post that caused the confusion. Cause I originally I thought I cast Silence in the surprise round, but I actually cast it during Round 1, and then delayed in Round 2 (not in round 1 like I posted). So silence should be viable through this round. Sorry about bursting your evil plans Aku... If you read through the combat the below reference is the only way Seren could have acted.
Operation Zombie Metal Box Shield Still intact!!!
For Reference Seren's Actions So far:
Round 1: Cast Silence, Move up ladder.
Round 2: Delay till after Golem, then hit with Club.
Round 3: Summon Zombie.
@Seren, yes, I know! It will end the next turn, you however, act after the golem.
So, that's what I was talking about. We are about to enter the round four.
After Hound/Rose/Mysty actions the silence will end.
Then it's the golem action and after it, it's your turn again.
Operation Zombie Metal Box Shield is at an end!!!
MWUAHAHAHAHAHA
:P
ahh okay. Well for one it's a zombie not a skeleton crazy, just try and hit that box through the big squishy thing. DR against Bashing Damage! :P
On a note really serious note but kind of serios: Operation Zombie Metal Box Shield is my makeshift Silence for this round, cause I knew there would be a gap. This was my interm solution, and I think it's a pretty grand one at that!
If it helps the effect, I'll will my zombie to stare at the golem's face with dead puppy dog eyes. The Golem may be immune to mind-effects, but it's puppy dog eyes. I swear from experience that the cookie jar at my house knows when my niece is sad, and wants a cookie and always mysteriously tips over when she gives it puppy dog eyes, and it too should be immune to mind-effects.
Sorry about that, wasn't familiar with how combat was set up
GM, since you've house ruled that golems can't be coup de graced or sneak attacked, are there any other alterations to the standard rule set that might help us in this fight?
We don't seem to be doing very well here and It is getting frustrating feeling like we don't really have any options. You told Mysty that she didn't know that fire would be useful, and nothing else we have at our disposal really would either. I'm seriously at a loss.
GM, since you've house ruled that golems can't be coup de graced or sneak attacked, are there any other alterations to the standard rule set that might help us in this fight?
Sneak is working as described in paizo rules. I said that I’m biased against paizo changes from 3.5. I’m not house-ruling otherwise. If you check the golem dmg on the map, all of Mysty sneaks were accounted for.
About the coup de grace, it’s something hard to say. I’m against it, but since most of the party don’t agree, I don’t see why it should not work.
We don't seem to be doing very well here and It is getting frustrating feeling like we don't really have any options. You told Mysty that she didn't know that fire would be useful, and nothing else we have at our disposal really would either. I'm seriously at a loss.
I said that, in the next opportunity, for her not to assume out of the game knowledge, without passing a K:Check.
What I meant was: Do not affirm the monster has vulnerability without a skill check. I did not say however, she was wrong in her logic, since it’s fairly easy to guess that fire would counter ice.
Gotcha. Thank you for clarifying.
I've been thinking about the question you posed about how someone could coup de grace a block of ice or stone.
It seems to me, that's what anyone does with a sledgehammer, or an axe. The thing isn't moving or resisting, so you line up the most powerful swing you can and aim for the spot that is the least structurally sound.
This is often more a question of having the right tool (read as, being able to penatrate hardness/DR). No matter how hard you hit something, if you aren't using something that will get through it won't matter much.
In this case, since the thing can be sneak attacked and crit it probably should be able to be coup de graced, but as a golem it is immune to fort save effects, so it isn't ever in danger of dying outright. It seems like the three of us should have each at least gotten in an auto-crit on the second round after we had moved in, before the thing stated actively resisting.
That's my opinion anyway.
Appreciated. This thing's AC is impressive. Last round I got an 18 (without counting flanking) and still didn't hit. This thing is a brute.
It's a 'normal' Ice golem with Advanced template.
That gives it an AC 21.
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less)
So we are really, really unprepared to fight it. Yikes. It's CMD is too high for us to try to drag or bull rush it, and it's up against the wall in a round room, so there's just no way of getting a flank off. We don't have the tools to penatrate it's DR, and it is flat out immune to pretty much everything two of our party members can do. This is one seriously nasty enemy.
As soon as I can afford it, I'm getting a scarab of golembane. >.<
Nahia, Seren, can you two please throw alchemist fire, or tanglefoot bags, or go for an Aid Another to boost our attacks? We need all the help we can get right now.
Between the copy pasting, spell checking, it seems I lost part of the description.
Yes, he attacked you, but was able to hit only one of his slam's attacks.
Nahia, Seren, can you two please throw alchemist fire, or tanglefoot bags, or go for an Aid Another to boost our attacks? We need all the help we can get right now.
I know that right now, you have no means of communication but why not, in other opportunities, yell at them in the heat of battle, to help you out? Makes it way more interesting than asking it off game. xD
Also, a couple of things:
1) I have no alchemists fire, as I used it in the burning of the rookery.
2) It would cause splash damage to all of you.
3) It would generate smoke that might have given us away.
4) To aid another in combat, the enemy has to be in range, and you guys have already surrounded the creature. There is no open space.
5) I could be casting guidance, and thought about it, but I figured it was worth checking if we were going to get another wave coming first. I'm also hoping that if they just send a couple to investigate, that I might be able to take out both of them (if we're lucky) before they can warn anyone.
Though I'm almost wondering if we should kill the golem and just escape into the vault, taking the body of the thing with us. Make it seemed like we vanished and all of that.