Happy Friday the 13th! :D
S&$+, my last post got eaten when the boards went down. I may have saved it on my home laptop if not, I'll get a new post up tonight.
Gods I hate when that happens. Lost a lot of good post that way. >.<
Good, saved my post just for got to re post it and I added the last sentence as well ;-)
Hmmmmm. Something familiar about these guys.
Well that's neat.
Cyric of Sembia, eh? Hmm, what would happen if said Sembian met with an unfortunate accident?
Considering how high the levels of NPCs are in the realms. It would be, interesting to say the least.
Cyric of Sembia, eh? Hmm, what would happen if said Sembian met with an unfortunate accident?
I'd have to think about that...
Though what is the motivation to kill him? Plus keep in mind what level they are :-)
Yeah even before they ascended, those guys were no push overs. Even in their current state they could easily dish out more damage then any of us have hp in one shot I'd guess. ;)
P.S. Clearly Dorn is the cautious type, then again when Manshoon tells you to do something with your life at stake. You tend to want to do it without screwing up. Like hell he is going to let some bush people be that reason. xD
So does our caravan also have in its midst, any beautiful wizards named Midnight?
So does our caravan also have in its midst, any beautiful wizards named Midnight?
Nope.
Deific vision lol.
Of course they are vastly more powerful than us, cuz Forgotten Realms.
And we're level zero, lol.
Just would be interesting to theorize what might happen, should Cyric die before ToT.
Deific vision lol.
Of course they are vastly more powerful than us, cuz Forgotten Realms.
And we're level zero, lol.
Just would be interesting to theorize what might happen, should Cyric die before ToT.
Well, we know he would not be a God :-)
Actually, he is the God of lies, so for all we know he just became calling himself Cyrik and his name wasn't Cyrik in the first place...
Then again there is a thing called fate.
Cyric suffered the truth and that's what broke a lot of his power later on. So yeah that's his real name, OOC knowledge wise at least.
I would have posted earlier but paizo has been acting up. Good thing I saved that long post. Anyone else been having trouble?
Cyric suffered the truth and that's what broke a lot of his power later on. So yeah that's his real name, OOC knowledge wise at least.
I would have posted earlier but paizo has been acting up. Good thing I saved that long post. Anyone else been having trouble?
Yes, cannot edit posts.
Yeah the book of true lies, which also affect mask. Then there's the Cyrinishad.
Yeah Paizo is acting up on my end, I'm trying to update characters for the Dm. The site is making that difficult.
Well at least it's not just me. Hopefully they fix it soon. Sense I can't edit I guess I'll delete and repost. >.<
Scratch that, you can't delete ether. -.-
This forum is kinda f@~$ed. I alluded earlier in another game that only duck tape holds it together but I've had to re-evaluate. Pretty sure its only masking tape holding it together.
@DM
Shot you a PM.
@Kyorruel
They have been pretty good about it over the years actually. Sometimes they get hit with a storm of crap, but considering how much traffic and ever expanding data is involved. It's pretty impressive they have kept it running so well.
They're also in the process of some apparently serious upgrades. One new, and rather useful one, is that you can now search your downloads, which is pretty awesome. Especially when you have close to 400 pdfs lol
I hate to bring this up as I wasn't involved in the exchange, but general play-by-post etiquette that I've learned is you don't presume success of attempts of contact against a player character. I.e., in the scene that just played out, it's not okay to assume Vorik automatically slaps Dorn. It's a form of godmoding--you essentially assume success and don't allow the other player to resist, dodge, or refuse the interaction. Dorn's player should have the right to say if he tried to dodge or not before success is assumed.
I'm a big proponent of player agency. Players should get 100% control of how they receive an interaction or it should involve a die roll attempt. This ensures everything's fair for everyone. So in this case, it would be either "Vorik tries to backhand Dorn" and Dorn can say if he's struck or not, or Vorik should have made an attack roll.
The same should go for most meaningful physical contact, whether violent or affectionate ("Bob offers a hug to Sally" not "Bob hugs Sally"). This allows for more roleplay and keeps player agency intact.
I recognize Dorn's player may not have minded what happened and can speak for himself, but in his shoes I would have been bothered and I don't want anyone doing that to me. I'd respectfully ask folks to pose those kind of interactions as attempts (possibly with die roll if appropriate), not presumed successes.
I hate to bring this up as I wasn't involved in the exchange, but general play-by-post etiquette that I've learned is you don't presume success of attempts of contact against a player character. I.e., in the scene that just played out, it's not okay to assume Vorik automatically slaps Dorn. It's a form of godmoding--you essentially assume success and don't allow the other player to resist, dodge, or refuse the interaction. Dorn's player should have the right to say if he tried to dodge or not before success is assumed.
I'm a big proponent of player agency. Players should get 100% control of how they receive an interaction or it should involve a die roll attempt. This ensures everything's fair for everyone. So in this case, it would be either "Vorik tries to backhand Dorn" and Dorn can say if he's struck or not, or Vorik should have made an attack roll.
The same should go for most meaningful physical contact, whether violent or affectionate ("Bob offers a hug to Sally" not "Bob hugs Sally"). This allows for more roleplay and keeps player agency intact.
I recognize Dorn's player may not have minded what happened and can speak for himself, but in his shoes I would have been bothered and I don't want anyone doing that to me. I'd respectfully ask folks to pose those kind of interactions as attempts (possibly with die roll if appropriate), not presumed successes.
That said, actions have consequences....
But I agree here, I see what Vorik is doing and the post should not presumne success but I'll roll with it as I despise IC rethinking unless necessary.
I mean if it's not an actual attack, it's not like Vorik was trying to actually attack and damage Dorn. Maybe then I think there would be an issue.
As I see it, it's just him making a point, an action for extra flair.
I already addressed it with the DM and will await his post before making mine. Short version I largely agree with Pox, no modding my PC without asking. Shouldn't assume actions follow through too. That's why we roll dice and have a DM to begin with.
@Ja'far
Yeah backhanding someone is an attack. It's in no way, shape, or form a flair of any kind. It's basically slapping or punching someone in the face just in a more specific manner. It's not something you do off hand without repercussions.
All that said Vorik's action is foolish in the extreme in my opinion. He just risked blowing his cover in broad view of the entire caravan and casting attention his way for the unusual act. For what, because Dorn thinks for himself and knows what he is doing. That was the point of his position and why unlike everyone else he has no real cover. He is in fact a merchant with connections under his own name. Makes no sense to me, unless Vorik is a reckless thug. Which I didn't get the vibe of until now so maybe I got it wrong on that account. But like the DM says their are consequences for not thinking before acting.
Intent matters, if I push you. Must now make a reposition cmb check?
Explain to me what reasonable intent you have for punching me in the face during a conversation.
I would argue context matters, not intent. Actions create reactions, intent is a shifting thought with no substance on it's own.
Let's all just agree that PvP is uncivilized, shall we? Sure, we're evil(most of us anyways- I do intend on shifting evil later on) but petty squabbling is far below us.
Alright, bit of an odd scene but Rook has been growling and threatening to attack anyone who looks sideways at Dorn so I don't think that the dog would allow this slap to go without response. And whooo, what a response but the dice roller is the dice roller.
Vorik is down and at zero HP.
This will certainly be a tense moment depending on what he does and what Dorn does! I assume Dorn will call Rook off but as Vorik has initiative, he gets to act first, assuming he can act.
I've no issue with Vorik slapping Dorn, he's an Acolyte of Bane who is arrogant, he's just low key! Next time, that should be an attack roll though as you can't assume you'll connect having dealt damage or no.
It creates a natural rivalry as well. Though F'zoul and Manshoon work together, they don't really like each other and Vorik symbolizes F'zoul while Dorn symbolizes Manshoon in many ways.
My vulture has an initiative as well. It's ready for combat.
My vulture has an initiative as well. It's ready for combat.
I'll add him.
I mean if it's not an actual attack, it's not like Vorik was trying to actually attack and damage Dorn. Maybe then I think there would be an issue.
As I see it, it's just him making a point, an action for extra flair.
To reiterate my main point:
Attempts at any form of physical contact (and for that matter, psychic contact) should be expressed as attempts, not be presumed to succeed.
You can establish "flair" or flavor without crossing the line to effectively taking over another player's character. This line has to be hard or else it becomes a slippery slope toward more invasive interactions between players that can quickly be problematic. I have seen people go down that slope and it gets UGLY. (What if you post "I slap you" and then you post "well I slap you back" and it goes on and on --where does that end? Who "wins" that fight?)
Being clear about "Attempt, do not assume" protects EVERY PLAYER.
It boggles me when people don't already consider it standard practice. This is across the board established standard gamer courtesy here. As the GM is well aware, I will not play in games where player agency is disregarded and personal boundaries crossed.
Can I get inititive as well? Kyorruel would like to help in stopping this madness.
Going to post sense with those conditions, he can only use a move action without dropping into negative hp. If he does use a move to try and get up then that will provoke a AoO and Rook will finish him off without Dorn stopping him.
I believe that it's pretty clear now that any action against a PC or an NPC, should always be an attempt. Nothing should be assumed with the dice roller as the ultimate factor in determining success or failure. A PC or NPC can ALWAYS roll a 1 even if their check has +100 that is still a failure.
Thank you for making that clear, DM.
All this said, I hope Vorik survives. But the events as they've transpired make sense to me.
Thank you for making that clear, DM.
All this said, I hope Vorik survives. But the events as they've transpired make sense to me.
You are welcome! :-)
Thought I made it clear in my prior post but I see now it was mixed in with other comments, the most recent post of mine is unequivocal.
So, wow.
A few things.
1) Dorn slapped me first, and didn't roll. Yes, it was 'on the shoulder', but he could have done more, had he wanted to, via a combat maneuver check, or heck, even used that as a way to deliver a touch spell.
If I'm going to 'punished' and he get's away fine, then that's pretty f'd up.
2) The entire reason why I didn't roll was because it was a purely roleplay, not an attempt to do any actual damage or ROLLplay.. I didn't think an entirely 'flavorful' action required dice.
Dorn slapped me first, and didn't roll. Yes, it was 'on the shoulder', but he could have done more, had he wanted to, via a combat maneuver check, or heck, even used that as a way to deliver a touch spell.
So your response to a good natured slap on the shoulder is backhanding someone in the mouth. If you didn't like it or take it that why then just post that Dorn misses as Vorik saw it coming. It was at the end of the post and had no effect on everything prior to it.
In comparison Vorik's action is completely violent and everything in the post is dependent on that action being carried out. Sorry to say I disagree with them being compared.
So, wow.
A few things.
1) Dorn slapped me first, and didn't roll. Yes, it was 'on the shoulder', but he could have done more, had he wanted to, via a combat maneuver check, or heck, even used that as a way to deliver a touch spell.
If I'm going to 'punished' and he get's away fine, then that's pretty f'd up.
2) The entire reason why I didn't roll was because it was a purely roleplay, not an attempt to do any actual damage or ROLLplay.. I didn't think an entirely 'flavorful' action required dice.
1) I'm going to have to disagree pretty vehemently here. A friendly slap on the back and a back hand to the face are very different. In real life if someone slapped me on the back I'd chuckle, if someone punched me in the face I'd f*!$ them up. No hesitation, I'd f~&@ them up, by who I mean ANY m**+~#&@!~@! that did that. A slap to the face is not just aggressive, it's disrespectful.
Now Dorn could have done more but he didn't, he made no mention of spellcasting, if he did, an attack roll would have been required.
Now, if you feel punished I am sorry. However, look at the thread from inception. Where is Rook? Right next to Dorn. In every single scene. The dog has growled at PC and NPC alike for getting near him.
The slap was an overt aggressive act and you yelled.
Assume my RL example from above that you tried to slap me. I have two Great Danes as big as people, IF they were with me I might not get a chance to f~@~ you up (not you MG the ethereal you) cause my two dogs would be on that persons ass like brown on s$+*.
Rook is a Mastiff, trained to be a guard dog, it's just what would have happened.
I'd not call it a punishment, it's a natural reaction to an action. Rook is a dog, not a person, he would not recognize whether that slap was intended to harm or intimidate. He'd just react.
2) I disagree here as well. I've personally described situations in PbP where I lifted a fellow PC and carried them to safety, that PC had a HUGE problem with my description EXACTLTY because of the point that Pox made, Player Agency. And that was me trying to rescue the PC! Last time I ever did that in a game. Even with an NPC it's not appropriate.
---
Now, all that being said, Dorn's NEXT action should be to call off Rook. It's clear that Vorik had no intention of harming Dorn. Regardless, it's an aggressive action that in RL would provoke the hell out of me and I assume it would provoke most people.
---
I assume we can move on from this now and play out the scene and move the game forward.
Of course, I assume neither Vorik nor Dorn will forget this incident and it may alter the nature of their relationship but that's fine, I would expect it to!
P.S. Post is up.
Good-natrued? How in the nine Hells do you consider anything in that exchange 'good natured'?!
Literally *nothing* about that was pleasant or friendly. Vorik was trying to assert dominance, as appointed leader, and Dorn was putting up his back as an independent contractor.
And I definitely didn't see that as a 'oh we're just locker room chums, celebrating a win' slap on the back.
More like a 'hey, I'm better than you, ya stuck up f!~@', punch to the arm.
He sighed at the whole thing. The banite was reading to much into it. These were businessmen from waterdeep, not from zhentil keep or the petty nobles of other lands. They worked amid sweat, heat, and the common people by all the gods. When they lost their temper or felt slighted, gold was lost not lives. Gundwynd had threatened just that moments ago, he was planning the same as well. And that was were it would end.
"Gundwynd did us a favor really. Taking on all the work while costing us nothing. In fact if they prove model guardsman, being considered the fool may be beneficial. Their is no real downside for us. Relax and focus on your cover job."
He slaps him on the shoulder. He had been presented with something unexpected from the whole affair. Maybe it could be turned towards an advantage.
---
Good-natrued? How in the nine Hells do you consider anything in that exchange 'good natured'?!
Literally *nothing* about that was pleasant or friendly. Vorik was trying to assert dominance, as appointed leader, and Dorn was putting up his back as an independent contractor.
And I definitely didn't see that as a 'oh we're just locker room chums, celebrating a win' slap on the back.
More like a 'hey, I'm better than you, ya stuck up f+%~', punch to the arm.
I disagree here, I see nothing threatening in the context of the last statement that Dorn made. Perhaps he should have said "I attempt to slap Vorik on the back" so in that I see your point.
Again, I have no problem with Vorik backhanding Dorn, he's an Acoyte of Bane, it's sort of how he's trained to handle what he perceives as problems. However, the dog is there to attack people so the dog did what the dog was supposed to do.
If Dorn was stuck up and thought he was better then you. He would ignore you and not explain himself or anything. Your words would fall on deaf ears and not be given the time of day. He would not provide reassurance or even make out a failure on his part to still be beneficial for the group as a whole.
Btw pretty sure most of us are independents. We are working a job for the church of bane but we are not all part of the church. Which was part of the reason some were chosen I think.
Uhh, I was saying Dorn was calling Vorik stuck up.
And I'm not so upset about the dog attacking me, as am I everybody out of game basically accusing me of trying to commit pvp, which was absolutely not the case.
We were in the midst of a heated exchange, Dorn jabbed me in the shoulder and I backhanded him.
Maybe I am just too used to more RP centric games, where such an action would not have been seen as combat/dice roll worthy.
Uhh, I was saying Dorn was calling Vorik stuck up.
And I'm not so upset about the dog attacking me, as am I everybody out of game basically accusing me of trying to commit pvp, which was absolutely not the case.
We were in the midst of a heated exchange, Dorn jabbed me in the shoulder and I backhanded him.
Maybe I am just too used to more RP centric games, where such an action would not have been seen as combat/dice roll worthy.
Could be just a visceral reaction to the backhanding and certainly some players place greater emphasis on player agency than on others. I think its less about PvP and more about where the ability to do something IC to another PC begins and ends.
Regardless, the dice roller was against Vorik on that exchange.
The guards' attacks missed and Rook's attack struck. Such is the way the dice roller goes.
Uhh, I was saying Dorn was calling Vorik stuck up.
And I'm not so upset about the dog attacking me, as am I everybody out of game basically accusing me of trying to commit pvp, which was absolutely not the case.
We were in the midst of a heated exchange, Dorn jabbed me in the shoulder and I backhanded him.
Maybe I am just too used to more RP centric games, where such an action would not have been seen as combat/dice roll worthy.
Vorik, I read Dorn's post to you as largely friendly, as "don't worry about what happened, we're good." I missed the shoulder-clap the first time, but rereading the post there is I can't see anything aggressive about it in the context of the post, which was to reassure Vorik, not denigrate or harm him (at least as I read it; I could well have missed something). The description of the action could have been more careful and clear ("Dorn tries to give Vorik a friendly backslap") but that only reexemplifies why it's important to step back and err on the side of caution. Regardless, answering a perceived wrong with another wrong doesn't justify the action.
Moreover, sounds like there's a strong issue of misinterpretation here. Doesn't hurt to clarify before acting sometimes.
Finally, one more time: you don't get to take over someone else's character, no matter if in a minor way, for "flavor reasons." Not okay. Never is. There would be NO ISSUE on the agency front if you had said, "Vorik raises his hand and attempts to backhand Dorn." That has ALL the roleplay and flavor you wanted, without stepping on another player's toes. Do you understand the difference?
I know I'm an observer in this and I'll say nothing else on the issue. Player agency is important to me so I find it important to speak up.
Here I am, clueless as ever...