Tora no Senaka - The Back of the Tiger (Inactive)

Game Master Dreaming Warforged

Not at all. To be honest, I'm having second thoughts about APs and the railroading they create. On the other hand, it's a great opportunity to see a character grow and keep a focus for a story. It makes it epic.

Railroading is not to big of an issue for me. My biggest problem I have with Paizo and what THEY think is fun, is their freaking NPC love. It really gets on my nerves.

Having to put Ameiko on the throne is stupid to me. Why would I care about putting a *red shirt NPC on the throne? I don't at all, truth be told. But that's why I built Theoden the way I did. He's in for the thrill of the adventure and plus he gets to take down an tyrannical ruler because he's evil. And if that helps get Ameiko on the throne, then so be it. It's all a wash to him. As long as she ain't evil.

So while I think it's stupid to fight an entire AP for a red shirt NPC, I can still find a way around it to where it works for me.

And Jade Regent isn't the only one either.

Serpent's Skull: You have to join up with the Pathfinders(or some other stupid faction). Terrible idea.

Shattered Star: You work for the Pathfinders. Again, stupid.

I could go on and on but I won't; because that just takes too much time. In a nutshell - and in my opinion - the PC'S. ARE. THE. STARS. OF. THE. SHOW. NOT THE NPC'S. Now if Paizo could ever figure this out, maybe they could come out with better AP's.

That being said, I'm not interested in being the AI of a video game where only the fight counts. Character should have depth, and there shouldn't be an excuse to not participating in telling a good story as a group.

Totally. Agree. Because that is TRULY boring.

Meanwhile, time passes and people forget about the plotline and NPCs, unless they take notes or other efforts. If they don't, then they can only follow the story and not drive it. That happens to me often enough. Sometimes I look at the past posts, sometimes I ask for a recap IC ("Sooo... What do we know?").

And this happens to me ALL the time. My mind is a terrible thing to lose. :P

A well-connected plot with a legitimate reason to pursue a goal involving role-playing and combat works for me.

Totally agree with Raith on this. Initially, I was a power gamer at heart. Let's get all the power stuff and move on. Now, the roleplay far outweighs the combat for me. Don't get me wrong, I still love combat and love to deal out the damage, but I find no matter how much damage I do, if there's no life to the character, and all I'm doing is standing around looking at the other pc's/npc's(and/or waiting on the next combat), that still makes it boring to me.

* Red shirt: In case you folks aren't familiar with this term, it comes from Star Trek. Anytime you see a dude in a red shirt on the TV show, you know he was destined to get killed. Because he has NEVER been on the show previously, and he just happened to show up for a random episode and they're the ones who are always wearing a red shirt. So you'd be like, "Who is that? Oh, he's a red shirt. Welp, he's done."

I liked Jade Regent for the Asian theme. I don't mind NPCs having a strong influence on the game. Putting an Empress on a throne is a pretty cool goal.

It takes a lot of work to make an NPC interesting. If you're not comfortable role-playing an in-depth romance with said Empress, her entire purpose for existing in a campaign with a bunch of adventurers is moot. That was the attraction of this particular AP: romancing the Empress and possibly becoming the Emperor yourself. That's a cool story to play in.

Once I figured out Celestial wasn't interested in running this story element, I lost investment in the character I was playing. He was built with that in mind.

My character development arc was to romance Ameiko. Rise up to the level of samurai. Marry Ameiko. Become the Emperor. Whole story arc completely destroyed once Celestial decided to have Ameiko bed down with Izumi off-screen and make Izumi the star of the movie and his child the Emperess's heir, when he wasn't playing anymore. I truly did not understand that decision and was flabbergasted.

I would have never done that to a player that stayed with the campaign. That's why I was stunned after it happened. I didn't think Celestial did it to be mean, but I also thought it was an indication that I shouldn't focus on the story and character development too much. I should focus on plot movement. When a DM ruins your background, not much you can do about it but adapt. That's what I did.

Why beat around the bush any longer. That's what I was going for. So Raith lost his character development angle and I had no other angle for him to work. It would have been damn cool in my opinion to play the no name, small town handyman that rose up to Samurai Emperor of Minkai ruling next to his lady love.

I was really looking forward to that part of the story.

Now my character development arc is a native from the icy north seeking the ultimate hunt. I imaginine the look on the Jade Regent's face when Akulyaok's arrows sink into his flesh killing him. That would be a pretty cool story too. Some badass native hunter wanders out of the icy tundra with the Empress seeking her throne and a ragtag group of adventurers she picks up on the way and ruins his plans.

On a side note, I agree with Javell about Shattered Star. I read it. Doesn't sound like fun. Serpent's Skull was cool because of the competing organizations. Working for the Pathfinders again doesn't appeal to me. I don't like reusing ideas and organizations.

I'm huge into NPC interaction. I agree with Javell, even the NPC interactions should make the PCs the star of the show.

My character development arc was to romance Ameiko. Rise up to the level of samurai. Marry Ameiko. Become the Emperor.

Okay, I gotta say... this would have been pretty dang cool. I've never seen it from this angle. I guess because I've never really been interested in the whole romance angle of JR. Always felt it to be a bit too "mechanical" I guess is the word I'm looking for. But I gotta give you props on the idea, Raith. I would have NEVER seen the romance bit from that perspective if you wouldn't have spelled it out with what you were planning.

Again, props, dude. Man that really would've been freaking cool. Emperor! Man can you imagine?! Oh that's just gold. :)

It sure would have been, Javell.

I was looking forward to the whole rise to samurai status angle. I love the Samurai culture. Just finished reading Lone Wolf and Cub for the third time (I still can't read book 28 and not be moved). I've watched all the Zatoichi movies. I've watched tons of Kurosawa and samurai movies in general. Read books on Bushido. Such a cool warrior culture. The katana sword is my all time favorite warrior sword (I know...I'm not alone), though I like European full knight armor best. The Seven Samurai is one my favorite movies of all time as well. The main attraction of Jade Regent was to play a ninja and a samurai.

The reason I chose monk as my base class was because most samurai and ninja are good at martial arts and don't wear heavy armor when they fight (unless they're on the battlefield). In duels, the samurai don't usually wear armor. Duels are all about mastery of swordsmanship.

I wanted to have Raith learn the samurai way once in Minkai. He would eventually start to learn Bushido, the way of the warrior. This way he would have been able to earn the respect of the warrior clans in Minkai, so he could sit the throne and not dishonor Ameiko.

I figured Izumi had a similar idea in mind. Once he dropped from the campaign, I was thinking the path was clear for my character development angle. Everyone else had chosen other NPCs to be associated with. I figured no one would mind if I went for the throne.

As they say, the best laid plans...

I guess in a weird way I should perhaps thank you Maddigan for your comments on my dming...

I'll take a few weeks to think things through. Probably three or so. I'll pop back if I feel like continuing, but I doubt it at this point.

Well damn. I think this character is honest to god cursed.

Well, one way or another let me say that I truly appreciate all the effort you've put into the game, CB. I've had a very good time playing the game with you all and I'm sorry if my posting wasn't consistent enough recently. I hope this won't turn you off to running another game at some point- PBPs are more difficult than they seem and any criticism I've had is more aimed at the authors of the campaign than you.

And sorry, Tark. Sucks that you joined just in time for the game to come apart at the seams.

I'd like to chime in and say that I've had a blast with things as well, CB. I greatly appreciate the work you put into this AP and I, personally, woudn't mind actually making it to Minkai before things fall apart. :) That said, whichever way things go from here, it's been a pleasure playing with all of you and I look forward to further gaming in the future.

I guess in a weird way I should perhaps thank you Maddigan for your comments on my dming...

I'll take a few weeks to think things through. Probably three or so. I'll pop back if I feel like continuing, but I doubt it at this point.

I wasn't much interested in killing the campaign. I moved on and adapted to the environment presented. If it will allow the others go on, I'll take myself out of the campaign. No harm intended by my comments.

I wanted to finally speak openly on why I was so disappointed in what happened. The situation is on me as well for not making my character development goal more clear to the DM. I figured the nature of the Jade Regent AP was set up for one of the PCs to romance Ameiko and sit next to her on the throne. When everyone but Izumi chose different NPCs, I figured why not go for the obvious story angle. A little competition for the Empress's hand would have made for interesting role-playing.

Every DM is different. You handle things in the way you see fit. It's not always going to be agreeable to the players present. I accepted the decision and moved on by creating a character with a character development angle I could see through to the end.

I just wanted to make it more clear as to why I gave up on Raith and changed characters.

Good gaming with all you these last three years. I enjoyed the campaign for the most part. And excellent role-playing Pavel, your stuttering ranger was fun. Had fun with your Elven wizard Daeron and your flamboyant actor playing as a cavalier Javell. Nice to meet you Seila.

Thanks for DMing all these years, Dreaming Warforged. It was for the most part an enjoyable experience. That's why I stuck around to make a new character.

This I also posted in another game I run.

Let me clarify a bit where I currently stand, and perhaps I can find something to work out.

I still love PbP. What has been harder and harder is to keep things challenging, and dealing with the gazillion number of options now available. IMO, the game has reached for me a breaking point. I get a headache when it's time to design a character or an encounter.

Also, I find the AP format to be necessarily railroady. Now, this gets old at some point, and I find the players can get into the: "ok, let's get the clues from this guy that will lead us to the next stage of the module..." That's just not fun.

So more sandboxy, more story-driven, less rule clutter... That's what I'm looking for. I might come up with a suggestion after some thinking. It will still be the epic fight to reclaim the throne of Minkai, but not the fight after fight and levelling after levelling, with expponential gain in complexity. I don't want that. I might come up with something less AP-driven and more player driven, low-level (capping at a certain level), therefore trickier, and more sandboxy as to what you guys can do or not do.

Let me know what you're thinking about that possibility. That will help my own thinking. I'm not promising anything. I'm struggling with what the game is becoming, or has always been, but I hadn't really lived through.

As to Maddigan's offer: that's not what I want. I'm more than happy to have good players at the table, but table manners matter: If a player joins my game, he has to accept that I will bring the story where I will bring the story, and that the expectation is to roll with it or as you did, leave to return with a new character. But I have no patience for complaining about where I bring the story, as I let you also bring the story places. If you don't like how I run a game, the graceful thing to do is to leave without comments such as: It was for the most part an enjoyable experience. There are a few of those in your departing posts, and they corrode things. Still, I repeat: If you can make an effort not to make those, I'll be more than happy to hear your thoughts and help me figure things out.

For myself, I think I'm gonna go ahead and call this one. I never really could find any real groove with Theoden anyway.

Thanks for the opportunity, DW, I appreciate it. Lot of good characters in this game, just wished I could've found a "something" for Theoden.

@James: I gotta say, that looks like it takes some work to post as someone who stutters. You pulled it off quite well. :) I can tell you now, I wouldn't even DARE undertake that task. You're a better man than me, bud.

Ok then Javell, I understand. In that case, nevermind what I said. Best to call it quits.

All the best to you all.

@James: I gotta say, that looks like it takes some work to post as someone who stutters. You pulled it off quite well. :) I can tell you now, I wouldn't even DARE undertake that task. You're a better man than me, bud.

Thanks! Honestly Pavel's dialogue was nothing- I had an Ulfen barbarian that had a throat wound so all of his dialogue was muttered phoenetically with an attached translation. So the stutter wasn't as bad as it might seem!

I enjoyed playing with you all. I'm in a similar place with Pathfinder, DW. I think it's gotten to the latter day 3.5 level of splatbook complexity that I don't really enjoy- or my taste, of course. If you're looking for a game that's more streamlined and easier to run, take a look at Monte Cook's Numenera. I'm running that for my IRL group and it's been a lot of fun. It's not a perfect system necessarily, but it's very easy to improvise with and there are a lot of cool possibilities for where it can be taken.

I'm looking at Numenera ;)

There's the complexity of the rules, then there's the collaborative building of a story.

With regards to complexity: What I had in mind was first to run shorter games. Some AP have great parts that can be ran as modules.

The options for character creation need to leave more flexibility, and not be a hunt for the combination that gives the best numbers. for example, all races could have things like +2 Con and Wis, -2 Chr, replaced by +2 one physical and one mental, -2 one mental. So we might finally see a dwarven bard! On the other hand, I'd remove all the FC options and alternate racial traits.

Also, to limit the number of levels to 6 or 8. IMO, level 4 spells is where there is a sudden gap and it starts to break things down. Furthermore, level 6 or 8 characters can in fact face a great many challenges, especially if they keep getting feats, and if you reduce or remove things like SR and DR.

With regards to building a story: The Alexandrian has great stuff on that subject, and I wish to see more flexibility in where a story would go and how a GM can bring it to places. One thing I really loved about Nmenera is that statement about XP not being for killing creatures, but for solving situations, discovering and achieving goals. Killing the thing and getting his stuff is getting old for me...

So when I try to apply this to our dying game, I'm thinking along the lines of: Why not bring the story now to Minkai, where a few well-meaning, though out of luck, wannabe heroes hear a crazy rumour that an heir to the throne of Minkai is supposedly coming from the North. These wannabes would then set upon preparing the ground for an eventual overthrow of the Jade Regent.

The level of play would be lower, and the games would be more loose, with a general goal, but a lot of freedom on how to achieve it...

Thoughts?

@James: Chiming in to add in my vote that Pavel was a really well played character.

@Javell: I actually thought Theoden was in a pretty good place. The slightly pompous paladin with a love of acting and theatrics. Also a well played character. Honestly I felt like I had a hard time getting anywhere with Daeron other than generic "know it all wizard". I wanted to up play the engineering angle, but I don't think I really did that at all. Oh well.

@TCB: As far things go with the Minkai game, that sounds like it could be a lot of fun. I'd be interested in doing something like that. I don't have a ton of attachment to Daeron as a character (never really found my groove with him).

Mechanically, one thing that springs to mind is the E6 or E8 mod to Pathfinder. Basically you stop levelling once you hit 6th or 8th but you keep gaining feats and stuff. I don't remember all the specifics of the rules, but it does seem interesting. That might be worth a look (if it wasn't what you were referring to above).

Good luck all in your future campaigns. It was a fun few years.

Ok, I thought about my situation and what I would like for this game, and here is what I would suggest:

There are two things we could do, both involve turning the game into an E7 game.

-The first is to keep this game going, leaving the village to face the sibling and keep going to Minkai. Players would be level 7 with an extra epic feat and the following caveat: in my version of E7, the last spell level for partial and full caster can only be used for metamagic or heighten spells (Heighten spell is a free bonus feat).

-The second is to start with new characters, set in Tian Xia, possibly around the Forest of Spirits. These would be Minkai exiled, looking for a way to remove the Jade Regent. Having heard a rumour that a rightful heir is coming, they set out to prepare the heir's arrival. That means starting at book 4 with locals instead of foreigners. I'm thinking we'd start with level 4 players.

Let me know how that sounds to you and which of the two options you would prefer.

I'm flexible about which method we could adopt. Being limited to summon monster 3 and not having access to my teleportation school's 8th level ability are bummers, but I can survive. I'm happy to let the others decide what course they prefer.

Just chiming in to let you know I'm still pondering things...

James, Tark? I haven't heard from you about what I suggested.

Guys, after careful thinking, I find myself unable to conjure the time and the will to continue with the game.

For now at least.

Should things improve and I wish to continue, I will send you a PM to gauge your interest.

Many thanks to you all for your commitment to the game. I hope we get to play again.

(I will render the campaign inactive over the weekend.)