Sad to hear that he's out.
The Gestalt option could work really well -- especially since I keep finding myself drawn toward the Battle Herald over the Druid (and we're pretty full up on martial characters!) -- so that could be good.
Tirion's questions about Gestalt are important, though -- I've seen people abuse the system with PrCs (mostly by playing "games" with their caster level -- I take a level of my spellcasting class and a level of the PrC that augments my spellcasting! Yay!)
I know that GM Blood had us select from between cleric, inquisitor and anti-paladin for the Way of the Wicked. Limiting it to several thematically appropriate classes such as a religious sect could work. You could require the Gestalt to be the original 4 classes (in my mind) fighter, thief, cleric and magic-user. (Ok, so they call them wizards and rogues these days, but are still magic-users and thieves to me.)
Yeah I felt my choice for the other gestalt class was pretty inspired for that one! :)
I'm up for anything. Not sure what I would pair with barbarian. I have a pretty icky combo with Alchemist that my cube neighbor and I came up with. Maybe just do oracle and avoid getting fatigued after 5th, but I could see rogue or fighter too. (Would help with all the feats I already want)
Here's my thought on Gestalt: I like the religious sect theme, it helps tie the characters together with a common background. At the same time, I think I can at least trust you guys to keep things [fairly] reasonable and not necessitate the Red Tape dispenser so I don't have to start thinking of rules such as "PrC boni to caster levels don't apply to your other class" and all other possibilities.
At the end of the day, the options with Gestalt allow you to create characters that are wacky, creative, genius - and it is my hope you take advantage of the opportunity to step outside the single-class-at-a-time box to find that one concept you always wanted to do but couldn't (like the plane-touched, all-alchemist troupe... even if I didn't necessarily care for all-alchemists! :D ).
Lol - we can all have Gestalt Alchemist, a class which really does not help any PrC in the least, with rare exceptions.
My Barbarian/Alchemist Gestalt is a powerhouse at day and a bookworm at night.
Trying to figure what Gestalt to take. The all alchemists is interesting, but not sure how to fit that in with the Arcane Archer. Perhaps Vivisectionist to get sneak damage.
My Barbarian/Alchemist Gestalt is a powerhouse at day and a bookworm at night.
I'm a powerhouse by night and a bookworm by day. Oh, wait - this is the wrong forum for that....
I'm a powerhouse by night and a bookworm by day. Oh, wait - this is the wrong forum for that....My Barbarian/Alchemist Gestalt is a powerhouse at day and a bookworm at night.
His character is the bomb . . . wait, no, he has a bomb . . . RUN!!!!!!!
Crypt breaker might be nice. Additional perception, darkvision, damage to undead. Get the discovery to attach bombs to your arrows
It's all about Explosive Missile, if you're going AA. ;) Bombing at 500+ feet is beyond nasty.
With access to Gestalt, I'm leaning heavily toward the Ifrit Cavalier/Bard, then Battle Herald/Bard (since Herald doesn't increase spellcasting).
However, if we're all Gestalting into Alchemist, which I still think would be totally cool (though it gives us a *lot* of bombs, barring vivisectionist builds) -- I'll have to think up something fun to mix in.
Gestalt Alchemist build for me would be Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager/Urban)/Alchemist (Vivisectionist/Beast Morph)...RAWR
Otherwise if anything is open I might have to look at fighter or rogue for the extra feats/talents that I need desperately or oracle for the 5th level immune to fatigue.
After reading the buildup to the Reaping Stone, the jaded part of me is looking for a massive challenge. The intro said:
"The Reaping Stone" is as brutal as Rappan Athuk and as challenging and engaging as any published Adventure Path, with a good dose of old school carnage binding the lot together.
I do like running with the four we have. With the module recommending a group of 6 level 2s, would 4 level 2 gestalts be too overpowered for the poor Reaping Stone with the A team we have here? I think the rule of thumb is gestalts are APL (or ECL) +2, but it may low given the creativity of the group we have.
I guess DM Horror can always add to the module difficulty if we are 'too good' (I find just applying the advanced template to creatures can do that).
If we go gestalt, I think I try the mindchemist/undead scourge paladin combo.
Trying to wrap my mind around the whole arrow bomb thing. I can do just as much damage with sneak attacks. I might not get the 500' range, but with rogue(sniper) as the Gestalt, I would pack a lot of sneak damage. Also, at 500' with bombs, it is 1 shot per round. With normal attacks multishot/rapid shot, it is at least 3. Damage probably comparable unless a whole group are all huddled together at 500'. Also, sneak damage would be unlimited usages vs. the level+Int for the bombs.
Gotta head out right now, but will figure out what to do. Monk(Zen Archer) is another possibility although I have always had a problem with this class as it really does not feel like a monk at all.
Probably Rogue or Alchemist(vivisectionist) would be best for my build. I just need to get my hands around the vivisectionist as a lot of the powers really have an evil feel to them and I do not think that we are all going evil in this campaign. A sneaky version of the vivisectionist would be cool.
An interesting Archer combo (that wouldn't include AA unless you can use your racial SLA to get into it) would be Zen Archer Monk (or maneuver master maybe)/Fighter Archer combo with the remote maneuvers. Of course a Zen Archer/Ranger combo would work well together in the sheer number of free feats you can get!
It's not just the boom, it's the additional effects -- Explosive Missile *isn't* Explosive Missile(*) -- which means it works with other bomb modifiers -- (Confusion, Tanglefoot, etc, etc.)
However, yes, with sniper you can benefit from sneak attack damage, which is also good (though if you're already getting levels in Sniper, levels of vivisectionist many not be the bestest -- though I guess levels do stack for Sneak damage).
In terms of non-evil vivisectionist, it's quite possible -- just think of yourself as a semi-obsessed mortician -- you have no desire to kill anyone, but you're more than happy to examine the corpses later...
(Falling somewhere on the Frankenstein spectrum, basically... which is why they really need to allow Alchies to make golems) Ultimately, you end up taking things like spontaneous healing as your discoveries.
[Of course, that kind of has me thinking -- how many fun abilities can you get as a Gestalt who does a lot of "dipping" with his level choice...]
Alright, here's what I think: let's get started without Gestalt and see how the first few encounters play out. If it's a complete drubbing right off the bat, we can re-evaluate and adjust CR/characters accordingly. Another reason I have is that it allows you guys to get a character sheet ready more easily/quickly so we can get started as soon as possible next week!
I'm going to state right now my Barbarian will be giving complete drubbings no matter what....RAWR! ;)
Well, gestalt may work out. Checking the threads, it is a perfect way for a smaller party to cover the roles required of a larger party.
The gestalt characters have the action economy/hit points of 4 characters and the abilities of 8 characters. Before we scrap the idea, has anyone tried gestalt characters through an AP?
The more I think about it, the more I like it. Encounters are easy to buff up.
My current concept is a ratfolk alchemist(mindchemist)/paladin(undead scourge). I like drinking a cognatagen to buff charisma.
I was going to make a similar comment -- 4 Gestalts are more powerful, yes, than 4 non-gestalts, but at the end of the day, there's only 4 of them -- which means it's still as easy to flank/injure/break/bleed/whatever them.
I would imagine the fact that they still only get 1 bag of hit points, also, makes them more vulnerable than 6 non-gestalts.
However, if we're not playing blended characters, that brings me back around to... the party is an (eventually arcane) archer, a barbarian and a mindchemist -- so I guess I *will* need to find a divine character to fill the last slot.
I have a character in a gestalt game that's fairly slow moving so I don't have much experience as a player, but GM Blood's Way of the Wicked was gestalt and Tirion was a player in that so I'm fine to let their greater depth of experience guide the decision.
My official line is that I'd prefer gestalt with four players and using the encounters as written without adjustment.
If we are all alchemists we will have a little bit of healing. Plus the paladin can use a wand of cure light wounds and will have lay on hands
Yeh - I say we go all Alchemist gestalts. It gives us a funky cohesion and does not really allow much in the way of exploitation since they are not casters anyway. Although with this group, I doubt anyone would be fighting over technicalities to bend the rules.
I did not think that the Gestalt really added a lot, although I did not take a particularly min/max combo (Druid(blight druid)/Inquisitor). At high level it would have probably been pretty buff, but as of level 3, I had never even used the Judgment ability.
Here, clearly we will have some bonus skills and abilities, but in the end we are still 4 characters with 4 character's HP and 4 characters actions.
We both were. I just wasn't an original player. :)
@GMBlood -- Alchemists can use spell trigger items for things on their formula list, so we were covered anyway. :)
Though, if we're all holding on to the idea of Alchie as our second half, I'll need to come up with a concept that's fun.
One note - if we all are taking Alchemist as the Gestalt, we will have to limit the ability to copy formulas back and forth. Have a scroll scribing cost or something, otherwise it is easy with 4 of us to just select 8 spells at each level and immediately have all the useful spells for no cost.
I am not completely set on all Alchemist if someone has another common theme that we can put our characters around - a deity, a cause, a theme, or something. We could all be wild outdoorsmen. Or undead hunters. Or something else. We just need a theme for the gestalts it seems.
I think undead hunters is a great theme or, to quote the Supernatural series, we are Ghostfacers. Any build that remotely makes us prime to recruit to stop an undead incursion is fair game.
Supernatural has the music I grew up on. I recommend the Dresden Files too.
Now I need to pick a medium mount for my ratman paladin. Thinking of the generic warpony for now.
I liked the idea of being part of a religious sect; perhaps the unifying concept could be the second class has to have access to divine spell-casting at some point. This is just speculation on my part but Tirion, you could pick up ranger or inquisitor, Dave could go oracle or inquisitor, Tilnar with cleric with the cavalier/battle herald, and Jonhilda with paladin/alchemist.
If we're to belong to a religious sect, would Order of the Star qualify, which is fully dedicated to championning a faith -- or does there need to be a divine magic(-able) class at every gestalt level?
Also, if we're all of the same faith, there's some synergy with my Cavalier abilities (assuming I keep putting levels in) -- which is pretty snazzy (the same is true of some inquisitor spells, as I recall..)
Order of the Star would work for me.
Ok - considering the following:
Undine Gestalt Ranger(trapper)---Monk(Zen Archer)/3-->Sorcerer(Celestial/Empyreal)/3-->Arcane Archer/10-->Sorcerer/4
Not a full caster, but should have fairly strong arcane buffs. Also, I may well go with the Ranger(trapper) archetype which would give the the DD you all are looking for. In addition, I will be able to attach traps to my arrows which is sort of like what you were saying I could do with the alchemist.
Ok, have the ratlady mostly ready.
Found out she has an AC of 22 with breastplate, kilt, shield, size, dex altogether. Wouldn't mind standing on the frontline with that.
Not to mention her knowledge skills rock.
If we kick in 187.5 gp each we can start with CLW wand.
I like the synergy with the trapper ranger and zen archer monk. It worked well on Jokbur. You could make it work on a dwarf. The half-elf build wasn't bad to max wisdom, perception, and disable (with the Irori trick)
HP:
Height: = 5' 11"
Weight: 85+ * 5 = 145lbs
Age:
Dripping wet, the strange blue woman walks out of the water carrying a huge bow. Behind her you can see the floating corpse of the undead creature which had been attacking fishermen for the past two weeks.
May I present Miraji for your review. Archery specialist.
I think that just about everything is done except for background and appearance. Although appearance should be easy - she is blue with greenish-blue hair.
Katie
-You don't need to take a Drawback under Traits
-Where is the +1 underarmor AC bonus coming from? I'm not saying it's not there, just that I didn't see it anywhere.
Miraji
-You took alternate racial traits that replaced your Cold Resist 5, but it's still noted in your Defenses section.
-You have an [ ooc] tag issue at the bottom Skills
-You have a copy/paste duplication in Feats
Thanks - I had the Cold Resist 5, and then realized that the Celestial Bloodline grants the same resistance. So I took an alternate trait that seemed useful, maybe, at some point if we ever end up in water or under water.
The [.ooc.] was from not finishing the Cold Resistance. It carried resulting in the one at the end of skills appearing.
And, I really want Precise Shot twice, because I am an Undine and we make sure we double up on things like Precise Shot.
____________
Kinda stinks. Ifrit and other elementalish races have cool alternate racial traits. The Undine alternate traits are pretty iffy at best. But, the stats line up and I have never played a half-fish.
Of course, the Undine main traits, other than Hydraulic Push, are useless unless you are a water cleric or a water elemental sorcerer.
The underarmor is the armored kilt.
An armored kilt seemed Scottish and unladylike, so I made it gender and culture agnostic.
How are we doing level 2 hps?
Do we all have 1000gps or 1000gps + starting to spend?
Grrrr - now that I have a character, I am trying to figure if I want the Ranger as the main character. I keep looking at Inquisitor and thinking that I really like it. If I do, then the question is whether I go 3 or 6 Zen archer levels before switching to sorcerer. Logically, 3 is best. Except I cannot get Improved Precise Strike without taking 6 levels. Although since I expect to be sniping from the middle of combat, I suppose it makes no difference.
Have been putting some thought into my barbarian, but haven't done anything concrete on him yet.
Are we doing the Gestalt characters with one side having a tie to the same religious sect in some way? If so what sect will we be (or will we make up one?)
Saranrae hates undead. Shelyn? Iomedea? Erasil?
Saranrae or Shelyn as NG may be best with monks and barbarians.
Katie
-You don't need to take a Drawback under Traits
GM Horror, are you saying you don't want us to take a drawback in order to get an additional trait? Or just that we don't have to do it.
Katie is Sarenrae--I'm all for the Sarenrae team vs Voldemort.
Better than Gryffindor vs Slytherin.
Saranrae is probably the easiest -- a number of aspects and NG, so it allows a nice range of believers.
Sill trying to pound things out, precisely.
My original thought was something like:
Levels 1-5 (Cavalier (Standard-Bearer)/Bard (Arcane Duelist))
Levels 6-10 (Battle Herald/Bard (Arcane Duelist))
At which point, I'd cast spells like Bard 10 [up to 4th level] (in medium armour), have the bonus feats from Arcane Duelist (Disruptive, Spellbreaker) and fight at full BAB (plus having 2 Inspiring Commands).
However, since part of the Gestalt needs to be divine-inspired, it means that my original plan of taking Herald/Bard levels doesn't work (neither are divine) -- which means that I'd likely (instead) take Herald/Cavalier levels -- which is a little less good. I lose the spellcasting (and the armoured casting) -- and it's a little less optimal in terms of Gestalt since they're both full BAB/d10 classes. (That, itself, isn't enough to make me not do it, though). The other issue, too, is I end up with a mount (something I was trying to side-step by taking Standard-Bearer), which means a lot of my class abilities end up tied to a large-sized creature I can't really bring everywhere.
So, accepting that, and noting that Cavalier of the Shield has the snazzy stacking (at half strength) with Paladin levels for Lay on Hands -- I'm wondering if it doesn't make sense to dip two levels of Paladin (thematically, Holy Tactician) -- for the lay on hands and divine grace... but if I do that, it becomes tempting to find *5* paladin levels so that I go from a "normal" cavalier's mount to a divine bond mount (intelligence to 6, and [especially] summonable])
[Further, if I do that, it makes the Beast Rider archetype look a lot more interesting...] Assuming that all 'comes together' properly, I'd have a build like:
Level 1-4: Paladin (Holy Tactician)/ Bard (Arcane Duelist)
Level 5: Cavalier (Beast Rider)/ Bard (Arcane Duelist)
Level 6: Paladin (Holy Tactician)/ Battle Herald
Level 7-10: Battle Herald/Cavalier
5 levels of paladin and 4 levels of cavalier would mean I Lay on Hands like a paladin (7), cast divine spells from the paladin list with CL 2, and cast arcane spells (bard) at CL 5 -- but only in light armour (which is less good). However, the stacking of levels mean I'd have a Level 10 companion mount -- an int 6, summonable magical beast that could be a large lion or dinosaur.
Which is your Gestalt? My understanding is that the Gestalt class never changes. I am looking at Ranger for the gestalt.
If we can change the Gestalt from/to a PrC, then I likely would make the Sorcerer(celestial)/AA the Gestalt. Not that a Celestial Sorcerer is a divine caster, but it is pretty darn close. If I did this, my main would vary between Monk(Zen Archer), Inquisitor, and possibly 2 fighter levels.
This would be fun as I would be an almost full caster losing only 2 or 3 casting levels with AA.
____________
I am good with Sarenrae - even though I am a Undine, I can find a way to tie in with the fire goddess.
I may have been approaching that incorrectly -- I didn't think one class had to be static, but, rather, you took a gestalted level each time you advanced. (Which allows for dipping)
However, if that isn't the case, then I may (one again) not play the Battle Herald -- using bard as the primary class, and then add either 2 paladins levels and 18 cavalier levels (or 5, to allow for the sacred bond upgrades to the cavalier mount)
In terms of Sarenrae working, I could totally see a "Steam Caster" worshipping the Fire aspect of Sarenrae.
My understanding is that the Gestalt class is static - so you take the class you plan on fixing on for 18 levels, and then use the regular class to dip/change classes. Also, I thought that the Gestalt class had to be a religious one - not sure if Monk would qualify for this in my case.
I think that GM Horror indicated that Cavalier would qualify for this. I am not sure about the PrC. I guess if the PrC is effectively a continuation of the base gestalt, this would not be a problem - Sorcerer-->DD, Cav-->Battle Herald, Ranger-->Horizon Walker or Mammoth Rider, etc.
We will need to wait on DM Horror to decide. I would not mind either Sorc(celestial) or Monk(Zen Archer) as my gestalt if they are allowed. Both would open up options for me.
I think gestalt are two classes for each level. You can change them as you go.
The intention is to not let people get a headstart on PrCs. You are not supposed to mix wizard, cleric and then bam, be a mystic theurge quickly.
I thought the alchemist discovery: ranged baptism would be cool, but it is not so hot:
You can use holy water as a splash weapon and any squares subject to its effects (including creatures affected by splash damage) or that contain creatures subject to its effects are also affected as if by the consecrate spell.
I assume I can make some potions before we start. Besides my arsenal of holy water, I was thinking some enlarge and shield of faith.
I'm still trying to figure out how I am going to fit all the pieces together, but I am close.
Generally it will come down to having to take 2 levels of Lore Warden Fighter to make what I want to do work or be close to what I want to do work.
I am tempted to do 2 levels of Rage Prophet in there somewhere to be able to cast cure spells while raging, but I think I can do a work around and throw that in somewhere after 11th level if we every make it there!
For my part in the cavalier vs divine thing....I think Order of the Star works for me and being part of the order. If you can make it work with Paladin that's cool too! (In the end its up to GM Horror)
Well, it looks like you've all been busy this evening! To answer your questions in approximate order,
- hp roll is 1/2+1/2 ie 1d10 becomes 1d5+5
- Starting is 1000 gp for 2nd Level, which includes class starting funds
- The Gestalt character should have some kind of religious/divine element to it, but this need not be a divine caster class: Cavalier Order of the Star counts (as noted earlier).
- While Gestalt rules do not require maintaining constant progression in one of the character's classes, I've decided to mandate you do so with the religious/divine class in order to preserve the unifying theme of the party - unless the PrC is a thematically-appropriate replacement/"evolution". On the other hand, no shenanigans with getting Mystic Theurge at 4th Level or anything like that.
- Maybe I'm just not familiar with the Traits/Drawbacks system as I thought, which was for characters to have two traits [only] unless a feat was taken for additional traits.
Hope that helps!
Usually a Drawback can be taken to grant a third trait. They are pretty much balanced, just depends on how the character plays it.
I don't have the energy to find another good trait though, so no Drawback for me.
Thanks for the clarification on the Gestalt. Will probably start the Gestalt with Ranger and then jump to Inquisitor. My main will start Monk(Zen Archer) and then go Sorcerer-->AA.