The_Ninja_DM's Carrion Crown
Game Master Spiral_Ninja

I'm pretty okay with everyone picking what they want and selling what's left over. The sales could go to either a party pool of money, or be split equally. I'm in it for the story, so I'm not overly concerned that the loot be split evenly.

I am in for the long haul. Maximizing party is where it is at.

That is why ion stone and feather fall ring where procured to put on permanent loan to our scout.

Two things:

1: I have three medical appointments tomorrow: PT for my sprained tendons, explaining to the dietician why I've lost so little weight, and then getting my regular physical. So, no posting until late, most likely, as the VA doesn't have WiFi for my Fire.

2: I now have Ultimate Equipment, so anything from there is valid. If you want to know about anything in particular, PM me.

ARRRGHHH Why must I be cash strapped?! I'm driving enough to eat close to $60 in gas every week, and I"ve gotta have money to eat, so no book for me right now.

Let me know if there's an item you're looking for and I'll see if it exists.

I'm just going to wait until I can afford it. I've got enough stuff to draw from that it'll be more of a convenience than anything.

Amazon. $29.69 for Prime members.

Of course, there's always idiots, too. There's an offer to sell a used copy for $999.99.

Bwahahahahahaha!

I normally grab the PDFs from Paizo. My book case is a bit full at the moment, and hard disk space is cheap.

Ridiculous offers on Amazon are generally to screw with opponent's repricing software.

Would anyone mind if I had Gkirkhan start a party the night before we left and had the schneaky DM describe the aftermath?

Yes there will be copious amounts of alcohol.

Yes I hope there will be embarrassments aplenty.

Eva won't drink, or she'll have very little.

Would anyone mind if I had Gkirkhan start a party the night before we left and had the schneaky DM describe the aftermath?

Yes there will be copious amounts of alcohol.

Yes I hope there will be embarrassments aplenty.

Hm. Were any of you planing on ever returning to Ravengro?

Returning to Ravengro? You could pick up a slightly used prison*, cheap!

*- some repairs required

Rova/Gkirkan, we had a chance to get some full plate at a good price here.
With my first split, I bought the feather fall ring. I still owe 3550gp on the ioun stone. Some day I will return to pay it off.

To be honest, I can't see Gkirkhan in full plate. I picked the armored coat because it suits him. That said, I think I'll be upgrading his coat once we get paid. I'm also happy with just keeping the +1 handaxe. I get a chuckle out of the mental image of Gkirk using the axe to pull people in close before smashing them with a hammer. I'm also fine with having half of what's left put into the party fund.

Unless we can buy a +1 returning dagger here. Then I'll be grabbing it and putting what's left in the party fund.

A dagger? Why not a throwing axe or light hammer?

Why would he need another hammer or an axe? :P

Joking aside, I think Gkirkhan is more willing to throw knives and lose them than to do the same with hammers or axes. Now, if we really want to pump the damage, how about a returning longsword?

Haha. It'd need to be a THROWING returning longsword, very expensive.

Burn a feat on throw anything and you no longer have to worry about adding Throwing. :D

True, especially good for a certain two-weapon fighter barbarian with a large hat...

And his dex isn't that bad, so he can probably reliably deal damage at range...

I can see it now:
DM: A ghoul rushes up to you...
Gkirk: Wait! I had a ready to chuck a sword at it
DM: Oh sure! Kill the monster before it even has a chance!

Especially since, well, we haven't been giving them much of a chance anyway have we? >:D

And his dex isn't that bad, so he can probably reliably deal damage at range...

I can see it now:
DM: A ghoul rushes up to you...
Gkirk: Wait! I had a ready to chuck a sword at it
DM: Oh sure! Kill the monster before it even has a chance!

Especially since, well, we haven't been giving them much of a chance anyway have we? >:D

There are ways around that. You did decide not to go with any ghost touch items, I believe. ;P

...
*gulp*
...

Okay I have no idea what the #&$$ you're trying to do with this "share" nonsense. I had a +1 longsword. Vertielle uses longswords. We found a +1 keen longsword. Vertielle sold her +1 longsword for 2315/2=1157.5; distributing the sale amongst her five colleagues 1157.5/5=231.5.
=231.5! Having done that math in my head, I'm pretty sure that 230gp is a reasonable approximation of our share.

Now, what I'm given to UNDERSTAND that you want, for some reason, suddenly, the group to do is this:
We found:
+1 keen longsword: cost 8315 g sell for 4157.5
+1 mithral dagger: cost 2515 g sells for 1257.5
+1 ring of protection: cost 2000g sells for 1000g
Rod of ectoplasmic metamagic (lesser]: costs 3000 g sells for 1500.
Total sale price:7915
7915/6= 1319.17
Share Total: 1319.17

Let's assume that Zhiden and Rova should get fair share of this final treasure, which is reasonable.
Everyone gets:
Share Eva= 1319.17
Share Wood= Warden's Badge and <180.83>
Share Rova= 1319.17
Share Zhiden= +1 mithral dagger and 61.67
Share Vertielle= +1 keen longsword and <2856.33>

Meaning Wood and I owe the group money. Vertielle then pays off 231.5 of her debt by selling her longsword, putting me at 2624.83gp in the red at the moment.

This is a stupid, ignorant system that requires far too much tracking and will leave everyone unhappy at some point, and I cannot stress that enough. Now, that said, IF SOMEONE ELSE WANTS THE DAMN LONGSWORD, SAY SOMETHING.

It'd be a waste to sell the +1 keen, in my opinion.

If any of THE PLAYERS are unhappy with the "take what makes sense" approach, and want to track the exact shares per person, by all means, say something now.
If any of you are uncomfortable with Vertielle keeping such an expensive item and would rather she sell it for the gold and split the profits, FINE. Say so.
This back-and-forth between Vertielle and Serisia is going nowhere very quickly, in any case.

Agreed,
selling the +1 keen longsword is a bad idea economically.
We should keep what is useful and sell what is not useful or have multiples of (starting with the lower quality ones).

In that case, what do you suggest as a fair split?

BTW, we've always done the even split method. I never even considered that anyone might not use it.

And I've been playing for 40+ years.

Sorry if I'm being a bit short, but I don't understand how this just now became an issue; we've been dividing loot since the first week.

My approach is a kind of "item rotation". We keep as much as possible from each find, utilizing the items as best we can, and allocating them to whomsoever is most appropriate. Whenever a new item replaces one you used to possess, you sell the previous one. All sales and liquidations, as well as coinage, is split evenly.

This doesn't really "ensure" fair split so much. Most martial characters wind up with more, since most of what you find is weapons and armor. I just don't really care that much. Tracking loot in Excel-like sheets and divying it exactingly is tedious, unrealistic, and frankly it pisses people off.

"Oh, you keep the staff no one else can use? You owe the party a bajillion gold. Can't pay? Oh that's a shame we'll just have to sell it. "

^This happened in one of my games. The party wizard wanted the high-level staff, which I included in the treasure because the group had a tendency to stay out on expeditions when he was running out of spells, and they wanted him to pay his share of it. Since he had just spent much of his spare cash on learning new spells and replacing his familiar, he couldn't afford to pay out his share of the staff, so the group elected to sell it instead of let him have it. Several deaths followed.

So if it had been a +1 keen warhammer or a+1 keen nodachi you'd have had no problem with Gkirkhan or Rova keeping the item?

Guess I'll have to adjust the future treasure.

On my part, though, we've had more problems with PCs grabbing all the 'good' stuff because 'I can use that!' than with deaths due to having sold something.

If the Split method is to be enforce, then I recommend that the default treasure in the AP be changed into a more divided treasure,
ie the +1 keen longsword: cost 8315 is divided into;
+1 Cold iron Longsword (4030gp)
and Mithral Breastplate (4200gp)
or
+1 Longsword (2015gp)
+1 Breastplate (1200gp)
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (2100gp)
.....

you get the idea

If the Split method is to be enforce, then I recommend that the default treasure in the AP be changed into a more divided treasure,

ie the +1 keen longsword: cost 8315 is divided into;
+1 Cold iron Longsword (4030gp)
and Mithral Breastplate (4200gp)
or
+1 Longsword (2015gp)
+1 Breastplate (1200gp)
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (2100gp)
.....

you get the idea

That's not a bad idea.

No, I wouldn't, and Vertielle wouldn't care either. I expect that somewhere down the line there'll be something I can use that they can't or won't.

I suppose it's a bit of a paid forward system, and relies a little on mixed treasures, but I've never had a problem with the set AP treasures, only random gen.

Random winds up with more +1 shortswords than you can shake a +1 longsword at, but the AP treasures are fairly balanced role-wise.

Evangline Valeria Aurora wrote:

If the Split method is to be enforce, then I recommend that the default treasure in the AP be changed into a more divided treasure,

ie the +1 keen longsword: cost 8315 is divided into;
+1 Cold iron Longsword (4030gp)
and Mithral Breastplate (4200gp)
or
+1 Longsword (2015gp)
+1 Breastplate (1200gp)
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (2100gp)
.....

you get the idea

That's not a bad idea.

Only one problem.

Some times an expensive piece of treasure is needed for later encounters.

Imagine that your level 1 you find a +1 shortsword, and your return to town and sell it.
but when you go back through that dungeon again getting farther in you encounter creatures with DR X/Magic, suddenly that +1 shortsword you sold is something you'd want very badly.

In most of the games I've been in that weren't PFS, gear went to whoever could use it the best/most. If you had a fighter and a wizard in the party and you had a set of +1 mithral half-plate and a ring of protection +1 and say about 3,000 GP in assorted treasure and coin, then, to me, it's not really fair to the fighter to say, "Sorry You don't have enough cash to get the half-plate, so we're selling it and splitting the money." He can use it and it improves his durability, which helps keep the monsters from finding out how squishy the wizard really is. The only game where we had everything nice and even, we had gotten so much treasure that it came out to about 16,000 GP each, for first level.

I say let Vertielle keep the longsword and either payback the group by dropping cash in the party fund until she pays the difference, or say, "to hell with it I ain't keeping up with all of that mess," split the rest between the party as evenly as we can, and make sure those that don't get a lot of the nice loot can use the party funds to get their swag on.

I know I'm not as experienced as all of you, but I, personally, would rather Vertielle have the sword and deal with having less cash than say no sword for you and sell it. I think Gkirkhan is the only other person that would benefit from it, but in character, he doesn't really have many things he wants. Out of character, he's not a longsword type anyway, otherwise I would have given him one. He prefers big, weighty, deadly things. longswords don't fit him. Eva can use it, I think, but she loses some of her monk stuff doing so. I don't thing Rova's going that route, but I don't have a clue when it comes to Psionics anyway. Zhid's too small and Wood is the aforementiond squishy that has no business being in frontline combat.

tl;dr: let Vertielle keep the sword and worry about keeping things even over the long run.

The thing is, the 'share and share alike' method that most of us seem to be favoring isn't overly realistic, in the sense that a group of virtual strangers wouldn't just put all their money into a pot and spend it as a group, but then again, a group of strangers wouldn't meet each other at a funeral and then pledge as a group to clear the undead out of a local abandoned prison as a favor to their dead friend, either. So for that purpose, sharing loot as a group is an acceptable break from reality for me.

That said, I think the only reason that sharing as a group would be a problem is if someone was feeling left out or like one person is getting preferencial treatment. I'm fine with Vertielle getting the +1 keen longsword. If she got that followed by an enchanted mithral chainshirt and then a belt of incredible dexterity, with the rest of us getting run of the mill stuff, then I might have a problem. I don't have any expectation that that will happen though. This group seems honorable and reasonable, far beyond my expectations, by the way.

Ok, just one more post on this from me and I'll let this be resolved in-game.

I've been gaming since I was 20 and I'm 61 now (or will be in November). In that time I have never played in a group where someone could just claim an item, regardless of cost, because 'they could use it' without compensating the group. That has always been regarded as theft. It's caused several games to break up and almost broke up a 20 year friendship. I never even considered you folks weren't doing that. I guess in the future I'll have to have treasure distribution style as an up front question for the group. Yes it's resulted in certain characters owing the group and not getting items/cash until caught up. But they got the item they wanted and were happy about the arrangement.

I'm not saying the group isn't honorable or reasonable, just...this isn't (and never was) my style.

If this is how the group works out treasure distribution, that's how I'll play it, but I will definitely have to modify the treasures found in the future, more than I already had to due to the lack of same in the next two modules.

Seriously, the next module has you fighting a 13th level final boss for 3000 gp, total, not each.

The APs have a terrible way of deferring gained treasure for far, far too long, awarding it almost all at once in a massive heap, but disguising it as really high values for low-cr. It's a mess.

I like that we get some 'larger' items like the keen longsword. It helps reduce 'trade up' costs later (like if we all received +1 cloak of resistances).

Now I watched two warriors friends survive many a woman playing them against each other, but one sword named Black Razor almost destroyed their friendship in a day.

I think we #1 want to field the best fighting force while #2 trying to keep a good treasure split in the long term.

If a bard, wizard, rogue and fighter find +1 full plate, +1 tower shield, and +4 belt of giant strength in their first treasure haul--the best thing for the group is to give them to the fighter while cursing the DM who, coincidentally, may happen to be the fighter's brother. Hopefully in the long run, it wiil work out.

The classic AD&D DMG had a big section on how to divide treasure and included henchmen and hirelings. It did have a 'share' system.

isn't Black Razor a cursed sword.

Wait.
a CR 12 boss v. a party of 6th or 7th levels? That's nuts! Should be epic though.

Anyway back on topic. I'm not much of a bookkeeper and I tend to let others take care of loot distribution because of that. I am not saying that we don't have some sort of balance. Personally, I feel that if everyone's okay with it, we can say that if someone gets a really good item, then they can't get the next really good item until everyone else has had a chance to get one. It relies on the honor system, true, but it reduces the amount of bookkeeping and gives more time for play.

And as I said before. I am okay with getting stiffed in the loot department this time if it means that someone else will get a tool to help them in their role.

Zhiden (& party), I also think a group of strangers meeting & fighting a horde of undead, that few of the members would accept "Sorry, maybe next time you get something." as an answer either.

Of course Rova feels like he's being cheated. In case you don't remember, he specifically asked how treasure was going to be split, and got an agreement that it was to be even shares.

Rova is Lawful Neutral. He keeps his word, and expects others to do so also.

If we do use the even split, we're gonna have to work out how the debt system works, though. Does whoever keep the expensive item pay it before they can keep it, or do they just not earn any other shares until they're paid out?

How does this even work?

As a rule, if the isn't enough cash on hand, you'd only get a fraction of further pools (so you can pay for upkeep) until it caught up. Usually doesn't take more than 1 or 2 splits to make it up to the party (unless it's a god item or something).

Just don't sell the keen lsword.

Grumble, grumble...stupid post manster

OK, so, now that we've (I hope) resolved the issue, I don't think it will be necessary to sell the much-debated longsword.

As an FYI, I've mad the following list of the stuff collected in and around Harrowstone. This doesn't include local purchases, just lootable stuff. And, yes, unless I dumped something there, there wasn't any treasure in the Upper Floor level. You folks should know what was used or sold.

I'm still holding onto most of these arrows, anyone want any?

"I don't use bows or crossbows, so sorry"

Um, I think Vertielle is the only one here that is an archer. Gkirkhan could do in a pinch, but his strength is, forgive the pun, strength.

That said, we could treat the arrows as group property. If we sell them, we split the gold, but otherwise they go to whoever the archer(s) is/are.

That's pretty much my plan. Thing is, Vertielle isn't much of an archer herself; she's more likely to use her whip. I'll hold onto them for now and divvy them up as the situation warrants, then.

As for some of this other stuff:

• 12 silver arrows
  
• 4 sun rods
  
• 6 flasks Holy Water
  
• 10 +1 arrows
  
• 5 +1 ghost touch arrows
  
• 2 +1 undead bane arrows
  

• 5 potions of cure light wounds (divvied up)
  
• 2 potions of lesser restoration (Eva?)
  
• 1 scroll of detect undead (Wood?)
  
• 2 scrolls of hide from undead (Wood?)
  
• 1 scroll of protection from evil (I used this)
  
• 1 thin darkwood case with palatine eye symbol 50 g (I'm carrying this but should we sell it?)
  
• 1 spirit board (Again, carrying it...)
  
• 1 brass spirit planchette 4000 g (...and again)
  
• 4 haunt siphons 400 g ea (Divvied. I have one, consumed.)
  
• 1 efficient quiver (Carrying this)

• x coin 24 g (Divvied)
  
• x coin 3 p (divvied)
  
• 1 rusty headman's scythe (huh?)
  
• 1 citrine 50 g (Don't remember this, but it should be sold)

• x coin 500 g (split)
  
• x coin 500 g (ditto)
  
• 4 potions of cure moderate wounds (everyone but Eva, at the time)
  
• 3 potions of lesser restoration (what happened to all of these?)
  
• 2 potions of remove disease (and these?)
  
• 5 vials holy water (split)
  
• 1 scroll of lesser restoration (Eva?)
  
• 1 wand of cure light wounds (15 charges) (Eva?)
  
• 2 fully stocked healer's kits (I think I have one and Eva has one)
  
• 3 vials of antitoxin (Carrying)
  
• 2 vials of antiplague (Carrying, used one.)
  
• 3 doses of bloodblock (carrying, used two)
  
• 2 vials of soothe syrup (carrying)
  
• 3 doses of smelling salts (carrying one)
  
• 4 potions of cure light wounds (split up)
  
• 1 set of MW thieves' tools (I'm using these, since Zhiden had some)
  
• 1 bronze war medallion from the Shining Crusade 40 g (sold?)
  
• 1 unframed Taldan painting of of Stavian I 100 g (ditto?)
  
• 1 noblewoman's silver hair clips 35 g (ditto?)
  
• 1 MW punching dagger (where did this come from?)
  
• 1 pouch containing 12 MW shuriken (this too?)
  
• 1 MW war razor (isn't this Gib's?)
  
• 1 wand of lesser restoration (12 charges) (Eva?)
  
• 1 +1 handaxe (Gkirkhan)
  
• 1 collection of silver holy symbols (12) 300 g (Eva?)
  
• 1 spellbook 1245 g (Wood; Zhiden)
  
• 1 MW smith's (light) hammer 301 g (Gkirkhan)
  
• 1 MW silver flute 300 g (me)

• x coin 120 g (split)
  
• 2 +1 handaxes (Huh? Gkirkhan, I guess?)
  
• 1 +1 longsword (me; sold for party)
  
• 1 +1 silvered morningstar (Rova)
  
• 1 stone of alarm (Wood)
  
• 6 suits MW chainmail (sold)
  
• 6 suits MW studded leather (sold)
  
• 4 MW longswords (sold)
  
• 4 MW heavy maces (sold)
  
• 2 MW heavy crossbows (someone has these)
  
• 120 crossbow bolts (and some of these)
  
• 10 +1 crossbow bolts in a wooden case (with these)
  
• 1 wand of hold person (11 charges) (I'm carrying this; Wood want it?)
  
• 4 potions of cure moderate wounds (split up)
  
• 1 rope of climbing (Wood?)
  
• 1 +1 keen longsword (me/rova)
  
• 1 +1 mithral dagger (zhiden)
  
• 1 +1 ring of protection (unclaimed)
  
• 1 badge (rod) of lesser ectoplasmic metamagic (wood)

For reference, this is my equipment list:
Combat Gear:
+1 "Corset" Studded Leather, +1 keen Longsword, Dagger, Shortbow, Masterwork Whip, 20 arrows, 12 silver arrows, 10 +1 arrows, 4 +1 ghost touch arrows, 2 +1 undead bane arrows;
Scrolls
Summon Monster I (2);
Potions
Crafter's Fortune, Detect Undead, Cure Light Wounds, Enlarge Person, Identify, Keen Senses.
Wands
Hold Person (11 remain)
Other Gear:
The Piper's Flute, Masterwork Thieves' Tools, 3 vials of antitoxin, 1 vials of antiplague, 1 doses of bloodblock, 3 vials of holy water, 1 doses of smelling salts, 2 vials of soothe syrup, Sunrod, Efficient Quiver, Pathfinder's Kit, Deluxe Dungeoneering Kit, Chronicler's Supplies, brass planchette w/ board, Consumed Haunt siphon, 313gp.
Promisory decree of 1000gp from Prof. for delivering tomes.

Re the scythe: it's the thing that attacked you on the balcony. It might be sellable to a collector or museum as an artifact with an interesting history.

Re the case: you do have book with the same symbol to deliver, maybe the person who's getting it might want the case as well?

Vertielle makes sure there's an accurate sketch of the scythe in her notes, but otherwise wouldn't have even thought twice about it. Maybe one of the other party members picked up on it's value.

Quick note: I'll be trying to sell my journal when we go to Lepidstat, since I'll need a sell to prestige into Pathfinder Chronicler. Should I just start rolling Profession (scribe), and "stock" the results?
I'll also be splitting the profit amongst the party, since you all helped with the "research".