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So I know this is sort of a continuation of a thread I had in the gunslinger playtest section but I wanted to wait until UC was released to see the final product.
It didn't change much from the playtest. But thats OK, I was just going to go with it until my GM pointed out the newest bit of brokenness associated with the gunslinger class.
NO DCs TO CRAFT GUNS/AMMO.
WTF?! Really? Now how is this balanced? To put this in some perspective take the word firearm out and insert wand in its place.
Wandslinger gets a wand that shoots 'rays', that he can recharge everyday by just spending money (with no skill check involved), his 'rays' target touch AC but automatically bypass SR (but DR might apply). And he can craft new wands by just spending half the base price in materials and spending 1 day per 1,000 gp.
Every other item that you try and make requires a Craft check against a specific DC. Swords, bows, houses, etc. Magic Items requires Spellcraft checks to craft. If you fail checks the materials are wasted and you must start again.
But not guns, no check involved at all. In fact why would non-masterwork guns even exist since its not any harder to craft a masterwork gun. Any 1st-level expert can take the Gunsmithing feat and turn out guns of any type masterwork, advanced, whatever, as long as someone is willing to fund his work. If he has 1(!!) rank in craft alchemy he can turn out alchemical cartirges as well, with no check involved.
I'm sure someone out there will disagree with me and tell me I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about but whatever, if you don't want to admit that this is just totally wrong then fine. I would love to have guns and gunslinger in Pathfinder, I would also like them to not be broken just so that they can exist, this Gunsmithing thing is just too much.
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Take out "Guns and Ammo" and replace it with "Daily Spells".
I think that's a more apt analogy.
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Take out "Guns and Ammo" and replace it with "Daily Spells".
I think that's a more apt analogy.
Nah, the wand is a closer analoogy, since a Wizard has to make spellcraft checks to make them, plus a wizard with a wand as his bonded item can re-enchant it when it runs dry. Spells dont have craft DCs associated with them.
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Oooh, another popcorn thread. Wahoo.
I do wonder why this was done, but it's probably just to make firearms suck less. For reference, arrows don't need a check to make either.
As it is, a bow beats them in just about every way.
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Oooh, another popcorn thread. Wahoo.
I do wonder why this was done, but it's probably just to make firearms suck less. For reference, arrows don't need a check to make either.
As it is, a bow beats them in just about every way.
Really? Sarcasam. Yay, glad I came here looking for some answers to why this was done.
Also your wrong making arrows is a DC 12 craft check. At least according to my copy of the core book.
Item (Craft DC)
Lonbow, shortbow, or arrows (12)
Crossbow or bolts (15)
Simple melee weapon (12)
Martial melee weapon (15)
Exotic melee weapon (18)
Very simple item (5)
Typical item (10)
High-quality item (15)
Superior item (20)
masterwork item (20) plus the regular item cost and DC.
Thats abridged a little bit.
Plus a bow doesn't win when the guy shooting it missed the because his target AC was 24 points higher than the guy with the gun.
Proof - I just fought a group of monsters with my magus they were AC 33 and Touch AC 9. I hit alot more often when I used my brand new (awesome) Accurate Strike arcana. More hits for less damage = more damage than fewer hits for more damage.
I know! And talk about cheap! I mean, I can get 20 arrows for a single gold piece, but for the same amount I can get a single dose of black powder if I make it myself, or buy a bullet from a merchant!
Um... of course, I still need another silver piece if I am to make my own bullet... Or ten gold to buy a dose of black powder.
Then there's the problem that guns explode, and even a basic pistol is about the cost of a +1 weapon.
And the fact that they break and explode.
So yes, the fact that they are 20 times more expensive than normal ranged weapons, are expensive buy and repair, and have at least a 1 in 20 chance of breaking or exploding with every use in no way balances out the benefit!
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I know! And talk about cheap! I mean, I can get 20 arrows for a single gold piece, but for the same amount I can get a single dose of black powder if I make it myself, or buy a bullet from a merchant!
Um... of course, I still need another silver piece if I am to make my own bullet... Or ten gold to buy a dose of black powder.
Then there's the problem that guns explode, and even a basic pistol is about the cost of a +1 weapon.
And the fact that they break and explode.
So yes, the fact that they are 20 times more expensive than normal ranged weapons, are expensive buy and repair, and have at least a 1 in 20 chance of breaking or exploding with every use in no way balances out the benefit!
Your just avoiding the topic. I was just pointing out how nothing can be crafted by a player (or anyone else for that matter) without a check of some sort and a penalty for failing that check.
Nothing. Not mundane items, not magic items, not buildings, nothing.
Except firearms and firearm ammo.
And BTW all those drawbacks disappear in the hands of a gunslinger or just carry two or three guns with you, so when one breaks the first time you roll a 1, you just draw your backup. Because you can just make 'em for half price with no check involved so why not?
Proof - I just fought a group of monsters with my magus they were AC 33 and Touch AC 9. I hit alot more often when I used my brand new (awesome) Accurate Strike arcana. More hits for less damage = more damage than fewer hits for more damage.
Points:
-Accurate Strike allows all melee attacks. You have to be 9th level, so you get at least two.
-Getting more than two attacks with a gun in a round is costly, either in the cost of the gun or the ammo.
-To get touch attacks the gun user has to be really close, which makes it easy for the opponent to get them into melee. 5 foot stepping uses up their move action meaning the round has to get spent reloading, one way or the other.
-Missed shots cannot be recovered and means lots of gold down the tubes.
Oooh, another popcorn thread. Wahoo.
I do wonder why this was done, but it's probably just to make firearms suck less. For reference, arrows don't need a check to make either.
As it is, a bow beats them in just about every way.
Really? Sarcasam. Yay, glad I came here looking for some answers to why this was done.
Also your wrong making arrows is a DC 12 craft check. At least according to my copy of the core book.
Item (Craft DC)
Lonbow, shortbow, or arrows (12)
Crossbow or bolts (15)
Simple melee weapon (12)
Martial melee weapon (15)
Exotic melee weapon (18)
Very simple item (5)
Typical item (10)
High-quality item (15)
Superior item (20)
masterwork item (20) plus the regular item cost and DC.Thats abridged a little bit.
Plus a bow doesn't win when the guy shooting it missed the because his target AC was 24 points higher than the guy with the gun.
Proof - I just fought a group of monsters with my magus they were AC 33 and Touch AC 9. I hit alot more often when I used my brand new (awesome) Accurate Strike arcana. More hits for less damage = more damage than fewer hits for more damage.
Hrmph. d20pfsrd.com needs to update the Craft tables. I'll update that later. Lesson learned, check the PRD instead of d20pfsrd.
And "popcorn thread" just means a thread that'll turn into a heated discussion, which I predict this one will.
Guns start out better than bows. But after a few levels, bows quickly surpass guns. At level 11, gunslingers (not guns in general) get a boost from Lightning Reload, bringing them closer to bows, but bows still beat them out. More arrows with higher damage will beat out lower target AC (at close ranges) with fewer shots and low damage.
If you'd like, I'll gladly throw together an archer build to showcase this, if you'd throw a gun-user build.
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And BTW all those drawbacks disappear in the hands of a gunslinger or just carry two or three guns with you, so when one breaks the first time you roll a 1, you just draw your backup. Because you can just make 'em for half price with no check involved so why not?
I think you are forgetting that it requires at LEAST a feat & DM permission to do any of this.
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Proof - I just fought a group of monsters with my magus they were AC 33 and Touch AC 9. I hit alot more often when I used my brand new (awesome) Accurate Strike arcana. More hits for less damage = more damage than fewer hits for more damage.Points:
-Accurate Strike allows all melee attacks. You have to be 9th level, so you get at least two.
-Getting more than two attacks with a gun in a round is costly, either in the cost of the gun or the ammo.
-To get touch attacks the gun user has to be really close, which makes it easy for the opponent to get them into melee. 5 foot stepping uses up their move action meaning the round has to get spent reloading, one way or the other.
-Missed shots cannot be recovered and means lots of gold down the tubes.
1) I know that it was simply to point out how its A LOT easier to hit touch AC.
2) Pepperboxes allow multiple attacks (cost 1,500 gp, with Gunsmithing)
3) Pepperbox has 20 ft range for touch AC (more with Grit). Muskets have touch AC range of 40 ft.
4) All ammo cost half of what it says in the book thanks to Gunsmithing. This goes for all guns too.
Your just avoiding the topic. I was just pointing out how nothing can be crafted by a player (or anyone else for that matter) without a check of some sort and a penalty for failing that check.
Nothing. Not mundane items, not magic items, not buildings, nothing.
Except firearms and firearm ammo.
And BTW all those drawbacks disappear in the hands of a gunslinger or just carry two or three guns with you, so when one breaks the first time you roll a 1, you just draw your backup. Because you can just make 'em for half price with no check involved so why not?
Back up costs at least 740, or 320 if made yourself. Even if you assume that they can't fail their check, that still takes DAYS to create. Besides, the gun user has to take a feat to make these items.
And again, you're ignore the sheer amount of resources have to go into just using a basic gun, let alone a magical one. Enchanting them does not reduce the misfire possibility without a special enchantment, meaning that an enchanted one breaks as easily as a normal one.
And considering avoiding the break takes up a point of Grit, which is needed for all the gunslinger's other class features it doesn't actually remove it, since a couple of poor rolls can remove your Deeds for the combat.
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So just omit that line about no need to make Craft checks if you have the feat. Replace it with a Gunslinger class ability that grants them a bonus to all Craft (fireamrs) checks equal to 1/2 their class level, ala Alchemists.
I honestly have no idea what your talking about, there is no DC associated with crafting firearms if you have the Gunsmithing feat.
You just do it automatically.
I would rather have them get a bonus and have firearms have high (20-30) craft DCs, but they don't.
And also, If I just have to make up a bunch of house rules just to make all this crap feasable within a game then why did I shell out $40 for a book designed by 'professionals'.
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I think you are forgetting that it requires at LEAST a feat & DM permission to do any of this.
And BTW all those drawbacks disappear in the hands of a gunslinger or just carry two or three guns with you, so when one breaks the first time you roll a 1, you just draw your backup. Because you can just make 'em for half price with no check involved so why not?
Really, how do you figure that.
Sure you have to have the Gunsmithing feat. But Gunslingers (and all 'gun' archetypes) get it for free.
And what else do I need GM permission for?
1) I know that it was simply to point out how its A LOT easier to hit touch AC.2) Pepperboxes allow multiple attacks (cost 1,500 gp, with Gunsmithing)
3) Pepperbox has 20 ft range for touch AC (more with Grit). Muskets have touch AC range of 40 ft.
4) All ammo cost half of what it says in the book thanks to Gunsmithing. This goes for all guns too.
Deadeye only affects 1 attack with each use and doesn't affect range penalties. So each shot costs 1 Grit and comes with a -2 penalty. This also means you're using up precious Grit that is used for all your other Deeds.
Even halved the cost of guns is exponentially expensive compared to regular ranged weapons and the fact that they do break means it costs even more in upkeep. You can get 220 arrows from a store (440 by making them yourself) for the cost of making 11 shots yourself (or a single store bought shot). That's a level worth of arrows for the costs of a combat worth of bullets, and we haven't even started to factor in enchanting them.
A normal character will have vastly more and more powerful magic items than a gun user of a similar level. And his expensive magical weapons don't have a 5% or greater chance of breaking with every use.
Asides from Table 2-2
New crafting DC's
1 hand Firearm DC 20
2 hand Firearm DC 20
Skill Needed Craft Firearm
Yep nothing in there about it
Page 101
And what else do I need GM permission for?
To use guns for one. To be able to take the gunslinger class. To be able to take the gunsmith feat.
If the GM wants he can simply restrict the class and only allow Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) and MAYBE Amateur Gunslinger and the grit feats.
Firearms, and everything that goes with them, are optional. Allowing Firearms doesn't automatically give you permission to make full use of all feats and classes if the GM decides otherwise.
Asides from Table 2-2
New crafting DC's
1 hand Firearm DC 20
2 hand Firearm DC 20Skill Needed Craft Firearm
Yep nothing in there about it
Page 101
And that lack of info is why it's broken. ;)
And that lack of info is why it's broken. ;)Asides from Table 2-2
New crafting DC's
1 hand Firearm DC 20
2 hand Firearm DC 20Skill Needed Craft Firearm
Yep nothing in there about it
Page 101
I know, horrible isn't it.
All that pesky information...contained in books.
:)
R
Edit: By the way my responce here is light hearted like I think yours was Tobias. It just makes me laugh how some people can get so worked up on the boards with out thinking reading or just generally ignoring common sense.
In the immortal words of our big tow Capt. Hulka "Lightin' up Francis."
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Well maybe I've misread something and please let me know if I'm wrong but:
A. All gunslingers get the gunsmithing feat for free at first level so making/repairing any gun is much cheaper.
B. Gunsmithing allows you to make any ammunition for guns at 1/10th the cost (bullets cost 1 silver, black poswder a gold, etc) except for alchemical cartridges which are at half price (6 gold). At 2nd level and up a daily expenditure of 1.1 gold/per shot is really not that big a deal (50 or so gold a day is equivalent to about 3 charges from a wand of healing ie. nothing)
C. with the cost of a +2 belt you can apply a Far reaching sight onto any firearm and target your touch AC at whatever the guns max range is. Effectively making all basic attacks nearly auto-hit.
(yes it makes your gunslinger a sniper but that's kinda the point isn't it?)
Well maybe I've misread something and please let me know if I'm wrong but:
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C. with the cost of a +2 belt you can apply a Far reaching sight onto any firearm and target your touch AC at whatever the guns max range is. Effectively making all basic attacks nearly auto-hit.
(yes it makes your gunslinger a sniper but that's kinda the point isn't it?)
The sight can only be attached to two handed firearms. Further, using it is a full round action and only allows a single shot. This greatly reduces its use, and most two handed firearms have a 10% misfire rate.
And again, 11 self made shots cost the same as 440 self made arrows.
Cost and misfire are major balancing factors.
I have no idea what the OP is talking about in this thread. Guns are absolutely terrible, the biggest trap option in the game! They are hideously expensive, do low damage, get fewer attacks, and they explode in your hands. They only good thing about the Gunslinger is the Grit system, which I really like and would love to see adapted for other Martial classes. Otherwise, they suck.
An Inquisitor with a bow will pound the tar out of a Gunslinger as a ranged combatant any day.
I have no idea what the OP is talking about in this thread. Guns are absolutely terrible, the biggest trap option in the game! They are hideously expensive, do low damage, get fewer attacks, and they explode in your hands. They only good thing about the Gunslinger is the Grit system, which I really like and would love to see adapted for other Martial classes. Otherwise, they suck.An Inquisitor with a bow will pound the tar out of a Gunslinger as a ranged combatant any day.
Well, to be fair, the touch attack option, variable ammunition, higher criticals do make guns viable and fun. As good as a bow? Depends on the situation, as a gun can hit more regularly since it ignores armor.
Guns aren't super broken, but neither are they garbage. They're an option that has major benefits and drawbacks. It comes down to personal taste.
Edit: Oh, and the 101 DCs are only for the Field Repair feat. Gunsmith specifies that it means you don't need to make a check to make the weapon or ammo. But again, that costs a feat.
Your just avoiding the topic. I was just pointing out how nothing can be crafted by a player (or anyone else for that matter) without a check of some sort and a penalty for failing that check.
Nothing. Not mundane items, not magic items, not buildings, nothing.
Except firearms and firearm ammo.
And BTW all those drawbacks disappear in the hands of a gunslinger or just carry two or three guns with you, so when one breaks the first time you roll a 1, you just draw your backup. Because you can just make 'em for half price with no check involved so why not?
Page 101, Ultimate Combat. Firearms require Craft (Firearms) checks. Besides, crafting bullets from this era of firearms isn't too difficult if you have the proper training (the Gunsmithing feat); you make a metallic sphere and add gunpowder. Shrapnel shells? Super difficult. D&D bullets? Not really.
The DPR thread shows a bow Inquistor at 78 DPR and a Gunslinger at 95 - 144 DPR depending on build.
An Inquisitor with a bow will pound the tar out of a Gunslinger as a ranged combatant any day.
Wow, assuming these numbers are accurate, I stand corrected. I guess Gunslingers are deceptive after all - they're much better than they appear at first glance!
That being said, I am very suspicious of the DPR posted for the Inquisitor, the one in my group can easily surpass that number and he's only 8th level. Sorry, it's not my character so I don't have a build to post, just a hazy estimation.
Well, to be fair, the touch attack option, variable ammunition, higher criticals do make guns viable and fun. As good as a bow? Depends on the situation, as a gun can hit more regularly since it ignores armor.
Guns aren't super broken, but neither are they garbage. They're an option that has major benefits and drawbacks. It comes down to personal taste.
Edit: Oh, and the 101 DCs are only for the Field Repair feat. Gunsmith specifies that it means you don't need to make a check to make the weapon or ammo. But again, that costs a feat.
Doh you absolutly right on the DC's on 101. with the PDF it threw me off 'cause the Gumsmith stuff seems right after that.
I have no idea what the OP is talking about in this thread. Guns are absolutely terrible, the biggest trap option in the game! They are hideously expensive, do low damage, get fewer attacks, and they explode in your hands. They only good thing about the Gunslinger is the Grit system, which I really like and would love to see adapted for other Martial classes. Otherwise, they suck.An Inquisitor with a bow will pound the tar out of a Gunslinger as a ranged combatant any day.
Ah, ignorance is bliss I suppose. If you take Rapid Reload and load your gun with paper / metal cartridges instead of bullets and black powder, your loading speed drops to a free action, which means you can make a Full Attack with guns. Read the gun's rules; it says that you can only make a number of shots with a firearm equal to the number of loaded bullets in its chamber unless you can load your weapon as a free action, in which case you can choose as many times as you want.
Although guns have a lower base damage, the fact that they go against touch AC (you're not playing right if you're too far away for that to work) and possess the best BAB in game means that you can reliably count on ALL of your attacks hitting against everything; even if some do miss, the Gunslinger has tons of mechanics that activate on a missed shot (startling shot, grazing shot, etc).
It would appear that the biggest trap in the game is not correctly reading the rules and making broad assumptions.
Ah, ignorance is bliss I suppose. If you take Rapid Reload and load your gun with paper / metal cartridges instead of bullets and black powder, your loading speed drops to a free action, which means you can make a Full Attack with guns. Read the gun's rules; it says that you can only make a number of shots with a firearm equal to the number of loaded bullets in its chamber unless you can load your weapon as a free action, in which case you can choose as many times as you want.Although guns have a lower base damage, the fact that they go against touch AC (you're not playing right if you're too far away for that to work) and possess the best BAB in game means that you can reliably count on ALL of your attacks hitting against everything; even if some do miss, the Gunslinger has tons of mechanics that activate on a missed shot (startling shot, grazing shot, etc).
It would appear that the biggest trap in the game is not correctly reading the rules and making broad assumptions.
What I like about firearms is that there is a cost in free action reloading. Not only does it take a feat, but the alchemical cartridges are not only more expensive but they also add another 5% to your misfire. Nice benefit, but you have to decide it it's worth the cost.
I have no idea what the OP is talking about in this thread. Guns are absolutely terrible, the biggest trap option in the game! They are hideously expensive, do low damage, get fewer attacks, and they explode in your hands. They only good thing about the Gunslinger is the Grit system, which I really like and would love to see adapted for other Martial classes. Otherwise, they suck.An Inquisitor with a bow will pound the tar out of a Gunslinger as a ranged combatant any day.
Ah, ignorance is bliss I suppose. If you take Rapid Reload and load your gun with paper / metal cartridges instead of bullets and black powder, your loading speed drops to a free action, which means you can make a Full Attack with guns. Read the gun's rules; it says that you can only make a number of shots with a firearm equal to the number of loaded bullets in its chamber unless you can load your weapon as a free action, in which case you can choose as many times as you want.
Although guns have a lower base damage, the fact that they go against touch AC (you're not playing right if you're too far away for that to work) and possess the best BAB in game means that you can reliably count on ALL of your attacks hitting against everything; even if some do miss, the Gunslinger has tons of mechanics that activate on a missed shot (startling shot, grazing shot, etc).
It would appear that the biggest trap in the game is not correctly reading the rules and making broad assumptions.
You are correct. When I picked up UC I started reading the GS class, but as soon as I read about all the drawbacks with firearms (cost, slow reload, misfire) I said "forget about it!". Now I know I better read ALL the rules and re-read them to understand fully.
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Honestly, eliminating the craft skill check if you have the Gunsmithing feat doesn't bother me in the slightest because my group doesn't make magic item crafters roll skill checks unless they're trying to make something above their ability. Do you have any idea how long it would take to make a gun under the normal rules for crafting? An average Gunslinger might have +11 to their craft check by level 5 (assuming for a +1 int and masterwork craft tools), so with an average roll it would take them 23-24 weeks to finish a single gun.
But that aside, I just don't see how being able to make guns/ammo without a craft check and at a manageable speed at the cost of a feat is suddenly going to break the game into pieces.
Oh, also- the free action reload with Rapid/alchemical cartridges is only for one-handed guns. If your GM is using advanced firearms though, you only need rapid reload to get free action reload with any gun.
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Honestly, eliminating the craft skill check if you have the Gunsmithing feat doesn't bother me in the slightest because my group doesn't make magic item crafters roll skill checks unless they're trying to make something above their ability. Do you have any idea how long it would take to make a gun under the normal rules for crafting? An average Gunslinger might have +11 to their craft check by level 5 (assuming for a +1 int and masterwork craft tools), so with an average roll it would take them 23-24 weeks to finish a single gun.
But that aside, I just don't see how being able to make guns/ammo without a craft check and at a manageable speed at the cost of a feat is suddenly going to break the game into pieces.
Oh, also- the free action reload with Rapid/alchemical cartridges is only for one-handed guns. If your GM is using advanced firearms though, you only need rapid reload to get free action reload with any gun.
Nope, Gunsmithing works more like making a magic item 1 day per 1,000 gold. For guns and ammo.
So 4 days to make a revolver, assuming you don't screw it up.
self-editted away snarkiness
Although guns have a lower base damage, the fact that they go against touch AC (you're not playing right if you're too far away for that to work) and possess the best BAB in game means that you can reliably count on ALL of your attacks hitting against everything; even if some do miss, the Gunslinger has tons of mechanics that activate on a missed shot (startling shot, grazing shot, etc).
Except they nerfed Startling Shot to stupidity. SS is now a separate standard action and grazing shot requires grit (if I remember correctly).
Archery is still king.
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Do you have any idea how long it would take to make a gun under the normal rules for crafting?Nope, Gunsmithing works more like making a magic item 1 day per 1,000 gold. For guns and ammo.
So 4 days to make a revolver, assuming you don't screw it up.
missed that part (bolded for convenience), I guess? Gunsmithing allows you to craft guns in a matter of days, but without the feat it would take months upon months to finish a single gun
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The DPR thread shows a bow Inquistor at 78 DPR and a Gunslinger at 95 - 144 DPR depending on build.
An Inquisitor with a bow will pound the tar out of a Gunslinger as a ranged combatant any day.
I think that sounds about right, given that the inquisitor is also a caster class. I'm not making any points here, just giving my opinion.
Damage classes (and the 'slinger is one of those for sure) should be able to far and away exceed the damage done by casting classes, in all cases. Since that's all they do.
Wandslinger gets a wand that shoots 'rays', that he can recharge everyday by just spending money (with no skill check involved), his 'rays' target touch AC but automatically bypass SR (but DR might apply). And he can craft new wands by just spending half the base price in materials and spending 1 day per 1,000 gp.
What's a "wandslinger"?
Asides from Table 2-2
New crafting DC's
1 hand Firearm DC 20
2 hand Firearm DC 20Skill Needed Craft Firearm
Yep nothing in there about it
Page 101
that's for those that don't have the Gunsmithing feat, the feat itself says that you do not need to make a check to make firearms and ammo.
Although guns have a lower base damage, the fact that they go against touch AC (you're not playing right if you're too far away for that to work) and possess the best BAB in game means that you can reliably count on ALL of your attacks hitting against everything; even if some do miss, the Gunslinger has tons of mechanics that activate on a missed shot (startling shot, grazing shot, etc).Except they nerfed Startling Shot to stupidity. SS is now a separate standard action and grazing shot requires grit (if I remember correctly).
Archery is still king.
I didn't notice they nerfed Startling Shot; my Gunslinger player is going to be depressed, hahaha.
I don't think Archery is King, however. It's cheaper, but someone specializing in guns can do anything an archer can do if they spend enough gold, and they can all but completely count on all of their attacks hitting, which an archer cannot against a highly armored foe.
Although guns have a lower base damage, the fact that they go against touch AC (you're not playing right if you're too far away for that to work) and possess the best BAB in game means that you can reliably count on ALL of your attacks hitting against everything; even if some do miss, the Gunslinger has tons of mechanics that activate on a missed shot (startling shot, grazing shot, etc).Except they nerfed Startling Shot to stupidity. SS is now a separate standard action and grazing shot requires grit (if I remember correctly).
Archery is still king.
I didn't notice they nerfed Startling Shot; my Gunslinger player is going to be depressed, hahaha.
I don't think Archery is King, however. It's cheaper, but someone specializing in guns can do anything an archer can do if they spend enough gold, and they can all but completely count on all of their attacks hitting, which an archer cannot against a highly armored foe.
Archery has the advantage that it is equally effective at 15 ft. and at 100ft.
*Grabs some popcorn, because what else is there to do*
Really, another one of these threads?
Please, play a Gunslinger in a game. Try it out. Play up to higher levels, even, when the baddies get huge and their touch ACs are low. Optimize the s*%& out of him, too.
So far, I've found the gunslinger (and the gun rules) to be just fine. I didn't play one for too long (he died at low level), and he had some interesting plays, but nothing about it or the gun rules seemed out of balance. Different, with different rules and expectations, but none too powerful.
It's like playing an alchemist, and wondering why he doesn't play exactly like a blaster sorcerer because he has bombs (that target, of all things, touch AC).
Really, how do you figure that.Sure you have to have the Gunsmithing feat. But Gunslingers (and all 'gun' archetypes) get it for free.
And what else do I need GM permission for?
Can someone tell me where this rule is stated. I can not find it anywhere. I thought archetypes had to take the Gun smithing and exotic weapon prof. firearms feats.
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Can someone tell me where this rule is stated. I can not find it anywhere. I thought archetypes had to take the Gun smithing and exotic weapon prof. firearms feats.
Really, how do you figure that.Sure you have to have the Gunsmithing feat. But Gunslingers (and all 'gun' archetypes) get it for free.
And what else do I need GM permission for?
Page 9 very last sentence on left hand column.
Can someone tell me where this rule is stated. I can not find it anywhere. I thought archetypes had to take the Gun smithing and exotic weapon prof. firearms feats.
Really, how do you figure that.Sure you have to have the Gunsmithing feat. But Gunslingers (and all 'gun' archetypes) get it for free.
And what else do I need GM permission for?
Page 9 very last sentence on left hand column.
Awesome Thanks a lot!
Stop trolling this is such an insignificant part of the game it doesn't even affect the overall game in any shape or form.