With this many people on so many times, we need to be adaptable imo. Especially when ya'll are in Japan.
Fair enough. Let's have some more ppl weigh in on this before I make a final decision, though. Marf? Jenni? Geoff? Isaac?
I can get behind trying to do a preemptive initiative roll. Usually you can see that combat is coming, that way we can continue on with role-playing AND already have the initiative should the need arise. It could lead to SOME unnecessary rolls, but I think it would mostly work. Maybe we could try this out next combat? Perhaps even have the GM call for a preemptive initiative (just please be clear that we ARE NOT in combat AND NOT acting in initiative YET!)
I'm glad we all seem to be doing a great job being patient and working through the inevitable difficulties with playing in a new format. It's been fun making up our own pbp etiquette!
|
A point that Ryan just made me think about and with my last roll not being the best...
What shall we as players be doing with modifying rolls? I know as a standard CMB to maintain a grapple, I get a +2 bonus to do so, but on that last post I just rolled a d20 plus my standard CMB. Obviously there are some cases where people get a bonus to trip or grapple right up front and would naturally add that in, but what about in cases where you're not positive of the rules and just want to leave it up to the GM?
A few different options (using my most recent scenario):
a) CMB: Unmodified
b) CMB:
c) CMB: CMB + Maintain grapple
Honestly, after now posting, I've already decided where my vote lies.
"b" should be the standard, imo, because you should know how to play your character. If you don't realize you have a personal bonus in this situation, then it's your loss (unless the GM catches it and corrects you).
However, "a" and "c" still have great uses.
"a" can be used when you're unclear about the rules (e.g. when my character was trying to grapple through the bars). Make sure to note "unmodified" and why you're leaving it unmodified.
And "c" is great in situations where you have a weird bonus that may make the GM question where you're getting it from (e.g. if you've got a bonus that is only applicable under certain circumstances). Not saying we're not honest with each other, but when I go to roll a stealth check with this goblin of mine and am doing so at a +14 at level 1 (without ever putting a rank in it), I might take the time to break down how I've come to that ridiculous number.
Just a little more food for thought since we can't really discuss this stuff right after it happens like in irl.
A point that Ryan just made me think about and with my last roll not being the best...
What shall we as players be doing with modifying rolls? I know as a standard CMB to maintain a grapple, I get a +2 bonus to do so, but on that last post I just rolled a d20 plus my standard CMB. Obviously there are some cases where people get a bonus to trip or grapple right up front and would naturally add that in, but what about in cases where you're not positive of the rules and just want to leave it up to the GM?
A few different options (using my most recent scenario):
a) CMB: 1d20 + 6 Unmodified
b) CMB: 1d20 + 8
c) CMB: 1d20 + 6 + 2 CMB + Maintain grappleHonestly, after now posting, I've already decided where my vote lies.
"b" should be the standard, imo, because you should know how to play your character. If you don't realize you have a personal bonus in this situation, then it's your loss (unless the GM catches it and corrects you).
However, "a" and "c" still have great uses.
"a" can be used when you're unclear about the rules (e.g. when my character was trying to grapple through the bars). Make sure to note "unmodified" and why you're leaving it unmodified.
And "c" is great in situations where you have a weird bonus that may make the GM question where you're getting it from (e.g. if you've got a bonus that is only applicable under certain circumstances). Not saying we're not honest with each other, but when I go to roll a stealth check with this goblin of mine and am doing so at a +14 at level 1 (without ever putting a rank in it), I might take the time to break down how I've come to that ridiculous number.
Just a little more food for thought since we can't really discuss this stuff right after it...
All of these points are excellent. I highly agree with your well-thought-out and well-written conclusions, Geoff. Let us proceed with "b" for now, but if you are unsure, spell it out like "c." As a normal GM, I will be adding circumstantial bonuses as I see fit, but anything on the books, RAW, should be the player's responsibility. By ALL MEANS, if a player does not know if they should add a bonus, they should use "c" and spell it out to avoid confusion. <---Hehe, I just used italics for emphasis, which is a no-no for my students.
Anyway, let's hear some more thoughts on this. I've given mine. Do we agree with this system?
I'm glad we all seem to be doing a great job being patient and working through the inevitable difficulties with playing in a new format. It's been fun making up our own pbp etiquette!
I'd also like to mention that I think this spirit is a good one for this game. I think that all GMs have the temptation to maintain a god-like status in the game, and to some extent they must have complete control. However, I would like this game to be as collaborative as possible, given the framework. I will try to take any and all criticism well, and I think we should consider patience the key aspect of this campaign. We'll all mess up sometimes, so let's cut each other some slack and I, in particular, will try my best to listen to everyone's comments with the most objectivity I can muster.
I'm just concerned that I still don't know a lot of the bonus rules. I'll put in what I know, but it seems a bit unfair to just not get it because I don't know. Perhaps in that case, if someone catches it they could instruct me so that we all can learn!
|
I agree that option "b" is ideal. However, I really like option "a" for things like knowledge or other skill checks when the player is unsure which option the gm will want.
eg:
Something like that.
@ Marfa -
I always check bonuses. Its a good habit for a GM, bad one for a player, but I do it. So I'll keep an eye on yours and will point out irregularities to you. 8)
|
|
I can get behind trying to do a preemptive initiative roll. Usually you can see that combat is coming, that way we can continue on with role-playing AND already have the initiative should the need arise. It could lead to SOME unnecessary rolls, but I think it would mostly work. Maybe we could try this out next combat? Perhaps even have the GM call for a preemptive initiative (just please be clear that we ARE NOT in combat AND NOT acting in initiative YET!)
I'm glad we all seem to be doing a great job being patient and working through the inevitable difficulties with playing in a new format. It's been fun making up our own pbp etiquette!
This. I already stated what my vote is for earlier in the forum, but I can reiterate. I would like us to role our own, and I can see how rolling preemptively can help as well. I don't like the GM rolling for us unless we haven't posted in more than 24 hours.
Done and done. Yes, I like the decisioning (lol) as well.
And:
I'm just concerned that I still don't know a lot of the bonus rules. I'll put in what I know, but it seems a bit unfair to just not get it because I don't know. Perhaps in that case, if someone catches it they could instruct me so that we all can learn!
Same feelings as Marf here. I don't know them well enough yet, so I will probably post most unmodified unless I'm sure of a bonus, and then I'll probably write it like option C. Good ideas Geoff!
ALSO: MY DICE?!
|
|
@ Marfa -
I always check bonuses. Its a good habit for a GM, bad one for a player, but I do it. So I'll keep an eye on yours and will point out irregularities to you. 8)
Still, there are some things that a GM (aka a human being :P ) may not think of. Like a particular bloodline trait that gives a +1 when it's a full moon, but only against undead, and only if those undead have been undead for less than a week. I'm being extreme, but you get what I mean, there are definitely a few strange rules that the player needs to be aware of regarding their character. This is honestly one of the only reasons why one shouldn't just run on "a" as the standard.
|
|
ALSO: MY DICE?!
Seriously, what the hell.
Hm, I like that, but it's a tiny bit of a stretch. I looked up something on the forums (here) that makes perfect sense to me, but I still feel like I've seen other rules for choking out. Nevermind that, though, as next round I'll just pound the little bugger into the ground.
Edit: BBCode fail.
ALSO: MY DICE?!Seriously, what the hell.
Hm, I like that, but it's a tiny bit of a stretch. I looked up something on the forums (here) that makes perfect sense to me, but I still feel like I've seen other rules for choking out. Nevermind that, though, as next round I'll just pound the little bugger into the ground.
Edit: BBCode fail.
I like that, but I don't know what they mean by "grapple damage." Can you enlighten me? I can't seem to find rules on it besides doing an unarmed strike.
|
|
Grapple damage is unarmed damage. However, since geof has grappled, and now pinned the goblin (that was the second grapple), he can 'choke' the goblin. Basically, he does hit unarmed damage each round and after 3 rounds of being choked, the goblin has to make fort saves DC 10+ Geoff's CMB + 2 (cause he's still grappling) or pass out. He must make 2 saves in a row after passing out or he begins suffocating as per the core rule book.
Edit: Grapple rules are the confusing.
By all means, add stuff that you know is your specific bonus (like if my character gave you resistance, add the +1 to your save) I always think personal bonuses you get from YOUR character creation are your responsibility like favored enemy (if you know your fighting your favored enemy) and things like that. It might just be best to do c if for clarification because you know your character best and can justify where things come best.
Though I don't think it's necessary for your base skill or something being rediculous (though you might want to show how you get it in your character profile)
I was more talking about extra bonuses that may happen for like grappled creatures or other conditional bonuses (though I think a lot of those are more negatives to the creature which would still be the GM to take the negative and not a bonus to me)
I hope this all makes sense.
Grapple damage is unarmed damage. However, since geof has grappled, and now pinned the goblin (that was the second grapple), he can 'choke' the goblin. Basically, he does hit unarmed damage each round and after 3 rounds of being choked, the goblin has to make fort saves DC 10+ Geoff's CMB + 2 (cause he's still grappling) or pass out. He must make 2 saves in a row after passing out or he begins suffocating as per the core rule book.
Edit: Grapple rules are the confusing.
The rules I have don't say that under the grapple rules. They seemed to be confused on the thread Geoff linked, too. Also, a second grapple isn't automatically a pin. Geoff has to say he's pinning. From inside a cage, pinning doesn't sound possible. Anyway, I'm super confused. Can you link me the rules you're talking about? Sorry...I'm inexperienced in the grapples :/
|
|
I cannot link the rules unfortunately, this is the one downfall of pathfinder: they orgainized their book like wizards of the coast did for dnd, stuff is everywhere.
All of what I know about grapple, I learned on these duscussion forums.
A roll 'to maintain' a grapple is a pin as I understand it. Otherwise you can move or damage to defender, both break the grapple. Once pinned however, you can move or damage and it doesnt auto break the grapple.
In the case of a pin against the cage: The goblin was helpless when the second grapple initilized. Also, one could easily wrap their legs through the bars around the defenders waist and their arms through the bars around the defenders throat. Hence a choking pin.
I cannot link the rules unfortunately, this is the one downfall of pathfinder: they orgainized their book like wizards of the coast did for dnd, stuff is everywhere.
All of what I know about grapple, I learned on these duscussion forums.
A roll 'to maintain' a grapple is a pin as I understand it. Otherwise you can move or damage to defender, both break the grapple. Once pinned however, you can move or damage and it doesnt auto break the grapple.
In the case of a pin against the cage: The goblin was helpless when the second grapple initilized. Also, one could easily wrap their legs through the bars around the defenders waist and their arms through the bars around the defenders throat. Hence a choking pin.
Okay. I've read through the core looking for grapple stuff, and basically we're just going to have to improvise. I disagree that maintaining a grapple is a pin, because they are very separate in the book. But, because Geoff's only action was to try to choke, we'll call that a pin for this combat. From now on, would everyone like to use the rules that Ryan just posted? They seem clear and Ryan's done his homework on this. Any questions, as well, about something in the rules he posted?
That's the one with using the "nonlethal" damage you can do with a grapple but role-playing the damage as choking? I liked that idea too because it kinda uses the idea of the rule in a creative way.
|
|
According to Jason Buhlman:
Once a creature is pinned, the grappler no longer needs to maintain the pin and can either move or do damage. The grappled creature however, may make an escape artist check to break the pin. This brings both the attacker and the defender into the grappled condition. Then the attacker must re-pin or the defender must make a second excape artist (or opposed strength check) to escape the grapple.
In short: the reason you pin someone when grappling is so you don't have to roll to maintain it. You simply re-pin if the defender escapes.
According to Jason Buhlman:
Once a creature is pinned, the grappler no longer needs to maintain the pin and can either move or do damage. The grappled creature however, may make an escape artist check to break the pin. This brings both the attacker and the defender into the grappled condition. Then the attacker must re-pin or the defender must make a second excape artist (or opposed strength check) to escape the grapple.
In short: the reason you pin someone when grappling is so you don't have to roll to maintain it. You simply re-pin if the defender escapes.
First of all, there are other reasons to pin. Pinning removes DEX like grappling, but also imposes a -4 to AC. It also disallows ANY movements, not just ones that take two hands (like in a grapple). Obviously, though, I'm not going to argue with the lead developer, so I will revise and repost the house rules momentarily. Thanks for the research, DSP!
Okay, so our official house rules for choking and the core rules for grappling (partially quoted from DSP's post. Thanks, DSP!)=
From Core Rules (non-disputable):
1. PC must make a grapple check to grapple the opponent.
2. Opponent grappled --> On every following round PC may roll to maintain grapple (always a standard action as per Core Rulebook) or release as a free action.
3. The roll to maintain grapple includes the ability to perform ONE of the following: Move, Damage, Pin, or Tie Up (requires Pin).
4. Once he/she has pinned an opponent, a PC need not use a standard action to maintain the pin.
5. If an opponent is pinned and makes a successful escape artist check, both opponent and PC are again grappling, with the PC still in control. The opponent can then make another escape artist check to escape the grapple.
Refer to THIS PAGE for information on how to Damage, Move, or Tie Up. It also has a link to what the pinned condition does.
House rules:
1. Once target has been pinned and the PC has a standard action, which is the minimum of the third round (Round 1-grapple, Round 2-pinned), the PC may choke as a special maneuver. Choking automatically does the unarmed damage of the PC to the opponent. The PC may also choose to Damage, Tie Up, or Move like under "grappled" above.
2. After 3 rounds of being choked (so the 4th round), the opponent has to make a fortitude save DC 10+ PC's CMB + 2 each round to stay conscious.
3. If the opponent passes out, on the round following, if the PC continues to choke, then the opponent must make two fortitude saves in succession, passing each, to keep from suffocating.
4. If the opponent suffocates, I'm going to treat it as the effect of the suffocation spell: "On the target's next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points. One round later, the target drops to –1 hit points and is dying. One round after that, the target dies."
|
|
I feel like this is a long and drawn-out process to choke someone, but from what I've read elsewhere, it typically takes about 30 seconds for someone to go completely unconscious after being choked (unless they're properly trained, of course - house feats!). So the fact that this whole process takes 5-6 rounds really makes sense :D
|
|
I feel like this is a long and drawn-out process to choke someone, but from what I've read elsewhere, it typically takes about 30 seconds for someone to go completely unconscious after being choked (unless they're properly trained, of course - house feats!). So the fact that this whole process takes 5-6 rounds really makes sense :D
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS. :)
-GG
|
|
I feel like this is a long and drawn-out process to choke someone, but from what I've read elsewhere, it typically takes about 30 seconds for someone to go completely unconscious after being choked (unless they're properly trained, of course - house feats!). So the fact that this whole process takes 5-6 rounds really makes sense :DI AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS. :)
-GG
You are the scariest grandma ever...Thank you Five Iron Frenzy.
So, after Carys got all unconscious last night, I had a crazy PF dream. In the dream, we were suddenly playing this game table top. Combat ended and Rick decided that I couldn't roll or do anything to make my character conscious again and no one could rouse her.
Suddenly, Jenni told me that because my book reading spell was such a good act, I could use this special skill called "go evil" in order to regain consciousness. (go evil I think meant a super change in alinement and is no where as cool as going rogue!)
After thinking about it for a moment, I said, "I think I'll stay unconscious!"
Also, because I think this needed to be posted here:
Isaac: Play-by-post, CR 20!
|
|
So, after Carys got all unconscious last night, I had a crazy PF dream. In the dream, we were suddenly playing this game table top. Combat ended and Rick decided that I couldn't roll or do anything to make my character conscious again and no one could rouse her.
Suddenly, Jenni told me that because my book reading spell was such a good act, I could use this special skill called "go evil" in order to regain consciousness. (go evil I think meant a super change in alinement and is no where as cool as going rogue!)
After thinking about it for a moment, I said, "I think I'll stay unconscious!"
HAHA! I've had a few PF dreams recently too, but far too bizarre to explain anywhere. LOL. I'm glad you didn't "go evil." :)
-GG
ME TOO! Carys would be AWFUL all evil. There was also something about weird character sheets that had a bunch of things to track movement and weird rules for clerics, monks, and paladins on the back. I think my brain was trying to make complicated rules even more complicated.
-GGI like this.I'm glad! That's partly why this is my name- so I can sign it "GG." :D
Don't you ever forget it! ;)-GGYou are the scariest grandma ever...Thank you Five Iron Frenzy.
I love you guys.
OK, aoo. Probably won't affect me too much this campaign, but I was just thinking that it is going to be pretty difficult in this campaign because we don't get to physically see anyone move and then there's no trace of where you were versus where you are now.
Not sure if I would have no idea about aoo because I'm not really looking at the board for melee or whether it was fine for everyone.
Not sure what a possible solution could be or if it's really that big of a problem. Maybe just something to keep an eye out for to see how it's working.
|
|
As long as Rick continues to post the creature's move actions as either move or withdraw, we should be fine. Although, if the creature moves on the map, it would be helpful to mark the square it started in so we can all see who should get the attacks.
I kinda think that it would just be easier to tell us when we get an AoO because of movement. Spellcasting, standing up from prone, etc. should be our job, but because we can't see how the GM is moving the character, nor can we communicate a "did he move through this square or this one?" very quickly, it'd honestly just be easiest with the resources we have at hand to just be told when we're able to take an AoO from movement.
|
|
As long as Rick continues to post the creature's move actions as either move or withdraw, we should be fine. Although, if the creature moves on the map, it would be helpful to mark the square it started in so we can all see who should get the attacks.I kinda think that it would just be easier to tell us when we get an AoO because of movement. Spellcasting, standing up from prone, etc. should be our job, but because we can't see how the GM is moving the character, nor can we communicate a "did he move through this square or this one?" very quickly, it'd honestly just be easiest with the resources we have at hand to just be told when we're able to take an AoO from movement.
This. I agree, although I can see how it would be fun to have to claim it on our own as well. Logistically, and time-wise, it makes more sense for the GM to tell us.
-GG
If the GM is giving us aoo, then should we also give the GM his aoo against us to be fair?
It seems like a consensus! I'll alert y'all of AoOs provoked by movement.
Okay, so what I would like to say about self-determined rolls on abilities and skill checks...
Some of you have been GMs and know the basic DCs of things. I may have modifications to provide, however, so I would caution against assuming the basic DCs for everything (I rolled a 12, so naturally I know...). I'd like to have a bit more sway over the storytelling.
However, I think it's a great idea to keep the story moving and interesting by including rolls in your actions. If I haven't prompted you for a reflex save, but you want to make one as part of a roleplaying bit, that is fine with me. You still have to defer to my judgement on the roll, let me be clear, but you can have some freedom to determine what it means. I think Slev's use of a reflex save in the current game is a great example. 21 is a very high save, so he naturally assumed that he was able to dodge any repercussions from Eli's blow to the cage. That really made the story come alive, in my opinion, and his use of the save was excellent. If he had been wrong, I would have just corrected him later, but for now, if you roll a skill check and are pretty positive that it will fail or succeed (don't mess with anywhere from 9-18ish, etc.), go ahead and roleplay that roll.
Thanks for the great examples of this in-game! For those of you who don't have experience determining DCs and such, it's always okay to wait for my go-ahead. And, obviously, there will be plenty of skill checks that you just can't determine yourself.
Lucas, my character was speaking based on what the game board still says and the words you wrote. "Finished off" is pretty vague considering we're trying to be as descriptive as possible. You didn't acknowledge what I said in any posts so I wasn't sure what you had actually done since I had specifically addressed your character both in my speech and text.
Slev, I haven't the foggiest what you meant by "'that guy' you sometimes meet at the tavern". The shady character? The eccentric? The jolly drunk? Ron Burgundy?
Hey all, Isaac here.
Compy's dead, as you've heard. Thank you Quillworth for calling the haiatus, hopefully I can buy some technologies by then. See ya'llers in a month, if not sooner.
- I would really appreciate it if everyone would read through at least the last five pages up until now. I will be rereading the whole campaign, myself, so I can be on top of things.
- The freakin' time difference. Well, we can't do anything about it, I suppose. I will be able to post at work a lot of the time, probably around 5-7pm(ish, obviously) where the rest of you are. Combat is going to be slower, much slower, than before, so we'll all just have to live with that.
- Finally, sorry for all the delays. My school is one of the busiest in the prefecture, so I have a lot of responsibilities. I may not always be the most responsive GM, but please be patient with me. I'll give it my best shot!
PBP is designed for slowness. We'll be fine.