The Fallen Sons and Daughters of Heaven Pathfinder Campaign

Game Master Divinitus


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Silver Crusade

Monkeygod wrote:

Here's what is messed up about such a low cap to mental stats: at our level, one could(and many have) bought Huge size via Evolution points. That's +16 to Str. Add that onto the base 24 and you get 40, without any other increases.

Now be an Eldritch Godling, choosing Str as your casting stat and have better spells than a Wizard. Toss on Fighter for best BAB and feats and another solid base class and you pretty much 'win' and that's not even counting your RPs, Fiendish Powers, Legendary items and innate stuff....

I also feel like this needs to be addressed.

That said, Mighty does help. I managed to get all my saves in the upper 30s with it. without it... my 7th level spells were hitting 30 I think.


Monkeygod wrote:

Here's what is messed up about such a low cap to mental stats: at our level, one could(and many have) bought Huge size via Evolution points. That's +16 to Str. Add that onto the base 24 and you get 40, without any other increases.

Now be an Eldritch Godling, choosing Str as your casting stat and have better spells than a Wizard. Toss on Fighter for best BAB and feats and another solid base class and you pretty much 'win' and that's not even counting your RPs, Fiendish Powers, Legendary items and innate stuff....

If I go the wizard route and the stat cap stands I may have to go this route.


bigrig107 wrote:

That's weird, and definitely hurts DC-casters.

There aren't even any size bonuses to mental stats, if I remember correctly.

It does hurt, although I guess it's really only a +1 DC difference at this point. Casting-wise, save-or-suck/die is going to start off at a big disadvantage. DC's for spells are going to start around 23 for 6th level spells before feats, and it seems like most builds are ending up with save bonuses in the low-mid 20's. Spell perfection and (Greater) Spell Focus get you another 4 on that, and might be able to dig up a few more points of DC above that.

Versus tristalt enemies you might expect a 50% chance of your spell working if you're heavily specialized, and no real chance of it working otherwise, whereas versus non-tristalt mobs the chance of success will be more reasonable. Whether that makes save-or-suck useless then depends on what percentage of creatures we're fighting are tristalt.

Monkeygod: That's a good point. Mighty Godling with size increases can get saves/DCs far in excess of what any other build can get. In theory a dex build could do the same by getting very small, although I don't think there's the same synergy with the godlings as there is with strength.

Rednal: I understand the desire to avoid the stat arms-race. I do think it's worth considering whether the stats are skewed too far in favor of physical stats.

Silver Crusade

Updated.

so with mighty, I can get my charm person DC up to-
10+10+1+1+1+2+2+7+1 DC 35. heh,

Mia Rose:

Eidolon points-
(Bipedal)
Blindsight: 3
Pounce: 1
See in Darkness: 3EP
Reach: 1EP
Skilled: 1EP (perception)

Race Points:
Dragon(Half Dragon): 10RP
Arcane Focus: 1RP
Lucky, Greater: 4RP
Hardy: 2RP
Quick Reactions: 2RP
Object of Desire: 1RP
skill focus(perception): 1RP
Seducer: RP2
Fast: 1RP
Beguiling Liar: 2RP
Dual Minded: 1RP
Elven Magic: 3RP

Templates, Fey creature (CR+2), Eldritch (CR+1 1/2)

Eldritch template abilities:
Deflection: -2EP, +1/2 CR, add charsima mod. to AC as deflection
Natural Armor: -2 EP, +1/2 CR, add +6 natural armor bonus to AC
Regeneration: -4EP, +1/4 CR, Gain Regeneration 4
Senses: -2EP, +1/4CR, gain +60 blindsight, +30 Blindsense
healing bypass (regeneration): +1EP, -1/4 CR, Fire ends regeneration
Light Sensitivity: +1EP, -1/4CR, Dazzled in areas of Bright light

Fey Creature Template Abilities:
Long Step: A fey creature can teleport up to 10 feet per Hit Die as a move action. It may use this ability once every 1d4 rounds

Evasive

Spell Like Abilities:
1-2 Dancing lights 3/day, faerie fire
3-4 Entangle, glitterdust
5-6 Deep slumber
7-8 Major image
9-10 Confusion
11-12 Feeblemind
13-14 Mislead

wizard 13(Manipulator sub-school)/ (Fey Creature/Eldritch template)Fighter 10(weapon master)crossblooded sorcerer 1(Orc, Fey)/ /Kensai Magus 9/Mighty Template

Traits: Magical Lineage, fates Favored

Ability Scores:
Str: 10
Dex: 24 (28)
Con: 16 (20)
Int: 24 (30)
Wis: 14 (20)
Cha: 16 (22)

Vitals:
HP: 335
AC: 50 T: 38 FF:24
Saves:
Fort: +25(+27 vs spells, spell like abilities)
Ref: +25(+27 vs spells, spell like abilities)
Will: +28(+30 vs spells, spell like abilities)
Immunity: Fire, sleep, Paralysis, all mind affecting abilities.
Senses: Blindsense 30ft, Blindsight 90ft, darkvision , low light vision,
DR10/ cold Iron, DR4/-
Regeneration 4 (fire)
spell resistance 12+13(25)
Initiative: +30
Move speed: 70ft
Fly speed(Wings): 140ft perfect maneuverability

Offense:

Spell DCs:(+1 for charm/dominate person/monster)
1st- 29 +3 for enchantments, +2 for compulsions +1 for evocations
2nd- 30 +3 for enchantments, +2 for compulsions +1 for evocations
3rd- 31 +3 for enchantments, +2 for compulsions +1 for evocations
4th- 32 +3 for enchantments, +2 for compulsions +1 for evocations
5th- 33 +3 for enchantments, +2 for compulsions +1 for evocations
6th- 34 +3 for enchantments, +2 for compulsions +1 for evocations
7th- 35 +3 for enchantments, +2 for compulsions +1 for evocations

spell penetrations 1d20+20

Dueling Sword:
To hit: +41/+36/+31 (+38/+33/+28)
Damage: 1d8+29/35

Feats:
1: Improved Initiative(race), weapon focus Dueling sword(class), spell focus enchantment, weapon finesse(class) toughness (fixed feat), spell penetration,
2- spell focus evocation, Deadly Agility
3- greater spell penetration
4- weapon specialization dueling sword, spell specialization (shocking Grasp)
5- intensify spell, empower spell
6- Piranha strike ,greater spell focus (enchantment)
7- Iron will
8- Greater Spell specialization (undecided), greater weapon focus
9- Arcane Discovery
10- arcane discovery, arcane discovery,
11- Arcane Discovery,
12- Arcane Discovery, greater weapon specialization
13- Quicken Spell

Arcane Discoveries:
2: Knowledge is Power
9: Steward of the Great Beyond
10: Fast Study, Time stutter
11: Infectious Charms
12: True Name

Arcana:
3- Flamboyant Arcana
6- Lingering Pain
9- Accurate Strike

Opposition schools: Necromancy, Divination

Legendary Items:

Blade:
Powers: Returning, Intelligent,

Headband (Superiority):

Gear equivalent powers:

Cloak of Resistance +5 25000g
Belt of Physical Might +4 (Dex/con)40000g
Bracers of Armor +6 36000g
Ring of sustenance 2500g


Holy bejeezus.

I know I'm going to get lynched but I've taken a look at mighty for the first time and can we not have that please?

There are entire classes that don't pack what it's packing. And it ruthlessly goes around stat limits with raw bonuses to a lot of things.

Silver Crusade

bugger off ye codfish! its the only way to have my spells work worth a durn!

I'd be fine with tuning it though. I'd happily throw out half the bonuses for maybe the same CR, or CR+4 instead of 5.

Hell, I just want to be able to rely on my spells to make people my friends like I envisioned hehehe.

another thing, It gives me immunites and some defense that other people are stacking on for cheaper (dread lich, cough cough), without forcing me to play some undead heathen ;)


Well I mean, imagine if this guy had that template.

My Hit points would near about double.

My attacks would be ridiculously ludicrous.

His land speed would be about 160ft. base.

It bumps literally everything much higher.


Mighty is an improved version of Advanced - a simple, easy way of making things MUCH stronger than normal.

Also, I have ten more issues of Pathways to look over, and see if there's anything worth trading out Fortune-Blessed for. XD

Silver Crusade

well you are already getting most of those, for cheaper, with other templates. Save the straight HP and save/to hit boosts. Not to mention the cheeky size increase ;)

I am using Mighty so I can have some good power with sacrificing my RP vision of her, which would be really hard to do otherwise.

that said, even without Mighty I have regeneration 4, that is only stopped by fire, except I am immune to fire. lmao.

besides that, you would only get 30ft land speed increase. It only goes up to double base, so you wouldn't double the double.

I just don't want to give up RP for power, but then be gimped because I don't have all DA POWA


Yeah, I'm gonna have to vote to ban that.
It's way too overpowered, even for four levels worth, and pretty obviously a GM-buff template.

You mention the immunities, Rorek, but we're having to deal with non-ignorable side affects.
Mighty? Has basically none.
It's better than four levels of a full-BAB class, almost better than four levels of caster classes (arguably), and gives you a crap ton of extras.

I need all my class levels in order to realize my image for Azrielan, and not being able to spend the 4 "levels" needed is going to hurt.


I mean what issues do you have with your character Roerk? I think we can find cheaper alternatives to your problems without accidentally triggering armaegeddon.

Silver Crusade

well that's the balance isn't it? you gotta decide between mighty, or those 4 class levels, and as you said, its still a hard choice, even with its benefits.

on that note, give me one non-3pp template that increases my save DCs?

Silver Crusade

TarkXT wrote:
I mean what issues do you have with your character Roerk? I think we can find cheaper alternatives to your problems without accidentally triggering armaegeddon.

well, I wouldn't say Armageddon. just, miniacolypse

Like I said, I'd drop the HP/to hit/damage boosts for just the saves buff, the immunities, and spell DC bumps and make it a CR+4 without much complaint.

and yes, I can find them for cheaper as well, but it requires me shoe-horning myself into, most of the time, becoming undead, which I'd rather not as it doesn't fit her. The reason she fell was mortal pleasures (partly) so being unable to indulge in half of those pleasures...


Oh, no. It's not a hard choice at all.

Take full wizard, pump Int as high as you can, take a full BAB, high HD class (fighter for the bonus feats, monk for more protection/survival, etc.) and stick 9 levels of basically anything else on, then mighty.
Even with mighty and no-3pp stuff, that's one of the most powerful characters you can make.

I'm following Rednal's attitude, and trying not to break the game too hard.
Yeah, I'll be powerful, but not Mighty.

Silver Crusade

also, domain powers, are we going to use wisdom, or primary casting stat/primary stat?


I think he mentioned using any mental stat.
At least for the extra domain we get, outside of classes.

Silver Crusade

bigrig107 wrote:

Oh, no. It's not a hard choice at all.

Take full wizard, pump Int as high as you can, take a full BAB, high HD class (fighter for the bonus feats, monk for more protection/survival, etc.) and stick 9 levels of basically anything else on, then mighty.
Even with mighty and no-3pp stuff, that's one of the most powerful characters you can make.

I'm following Rednal's attitude, and trying not to break the game too hard.
Yeah, I'll be powerful, but not Mighty.

I'd wager even with my templates I am not as powerful as some, if not most, of the physical stat junkies here. Sure, It's hard to kill me with my huge AC/HP. But I am only immune to 4 things, one of which being elemental damage.

without Mighty, my DCs will be laughed at, I'll lose immunities to everything save fire, and my saves will drop to lower than average again (well, unless a certain power comes through, but then I am sure others have it as well).

Its about getting me some power, without sacrificing character Idea. I don't want to be undead, or clockwork, or an ooze, but immunities are really nice. Hell, half the people here my main focus wouldn't even bother anyway! :P

besides, if I really wanted to break this game, I would play an alchemist(beast morph)+unchained rogue+fighter haha. THAT would break things.


I suspect that if we had a lot of immunities/defenses, the GM would just hit us at our own weak points or give the enemy abilities that bypass defenses (which Mythic is chock-full of, by the way). XD So... having lots of immunities and stuff is probably less valuable in practice than it might look on paper.

Silver Crusade

Electricity, death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Inevitables are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. (sorry for using you as an example)

^

whats left? Sure, elemental damage can work, but HP pools in the upper 250s can take some good hits. I suppose mythic could bypass it, but I've only ever used mythic once before, and I only saw mostly options to make you even tougher vs non-mythic spells/effects rather than beefing up your own.

I won't argue its a strong template, but it is still an expensive one.


Primarily it's the HP and attack bonuses, I think, that are kinda high powered. DR, Speed, DCs, even saves, AC and immunities is honestly whatever. You can get those things from lots of templates.
The DCs is definitely important, and I see why people want to take the template

But the HP and attack are pretty unique in bypassing stat limits, and are very high bonuses. It can make characters only somewhat interested in an ability be better than others that were built for it.
For example Mia can have more HP than my character who has toughness, max allowable constitution (huge, max points into con), and favored class. Also has attack bonuses like 10-15 points higher than most physical characters posted.

Perhaps a new template that boosts some of those, but not all, with a reduced level cost. And make sure to keep in DC boosts so people can make sure they are useful as DC based casters.

Silver Crusade

Tamlakos wrote:

Primarily it's the HP and attack bonuses, I think, that are kinda high powered. DR, Speed, DCs, even saves, AC and immunities is honestly whatever. You can get those things from lots of templates.

But the HP and attack are pretty unique in bypassing stats, and very high bonuses. They can make characters only somewhat interested in an ability be better than others that were built for it.
For example Mia can have more HP than my character who has toughness, max allowable constitution (huge, max points into con), and favored class. Also has attack bonuses like 10-15 points higher than most physical characters.

to be fair, mia is rocking 1d10 HD per level thanks to another template, and has full BaB-1 along with a 20 con and toughnes, but like I said, I'd be happy to drop the HP to 5/HD, or none, and the to hit bonuses and keep it CR+5 or drop it to CR+4 depending on GM. Also rocking max dex as well pre-item/size shenanigans.


Fire, cold, acid, force, sonic, for one.

I assume we'll be challenged, because no matter how powerful we get, they will always get more powerful.

That's one of the reasons I don't like Mighty. It makes those who take it so much more powerful than those who don't.
+10 hp/HD? For most, that's 130.
+10 attack? That makes my first attack +38, and I'm still working things around.
+5 init? Good, but not great.
+5 dodge AC, the best type of bonus to get to AC? That'd make my total dodge bonus +9.

This makes it look attractive to everyone, and makes it an almost must-have.


@Rorek: What template is this? Many templates adjust RACIAL hit dice, but don't affect CLASS dice in the slightest. Such a change would actually be quite unusual, so I'm kind of curious here. XD


rorek55 wrote:

Electricity, death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Inevitables are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. (sorry for using you as an example)

Believe it or not none of that are templates. :)


Did you use FP for that, Arkothus?


here are my base ability scores and my race.

str 20
dex 18
con 16
wis 18
int 12
cha 18

EP
quadruped
nat ac +2

bite
legs x2

large 4
arms x2 4
pounce 1
claws (legs) 1

RP
greater defensive training 4
greater SR 3
greater lucky 4
improved natural armor x2 2
haste at will 6
fast x2 3
fast healing 1 6

Silver Crusade

Arkothus The Fallen of Ruin wrote:
rorek55 wrote:

Electricity, death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Inevitables are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. (sorry for using you as an example)

Believe it or not none of that are templates. :)

it's a race I bet, but my point stands. :P speaking of... do we get demon/angel resistances/immunities stock? or are we something different.


I'm jumping on the band wagon and also voting to ban Mighty.

I also have crappy saves, but I'm a blaster so it hardly matters. We already get one free immunity, and more can be picked up easy from EP or FP.

I agree with bigrig that it's practically an auto-include with no real downsides for only a +4 adjustment.

And, speaking earlier to casting stats, I think the hard cap sits at 35 with the current rulers (+6 from an headband, +5 from a manual). Is that right?


Rednal wrote:
@Rorek: What template is this? Many templates adjust RACIAL hit dice, but don't affect CLASS dice in the slightest. Such a change would actually be quite unusual, so I'm kind of curious here. XD

Yeah in no way are templates adjusting your HD right? That's not a thing.

Silver Crusade

eh, I'd still say if you did anything just tweak it.

If people are gonna break the game, they will break it with or without Mighty.


With undead, yeah, you get immunities.

But you also are damaged by positive, can be Commanded or Turned, and can't benefit from morale.
So, no rage, no Heroism, nothing.
Mighty has no such restrictions.

But enough talk on this, it's not our choice to allow it.

@Johnny- no, stat boosting items (at least the enhancement ones) can't boost a stat above 24. We haven't heard if that's staying though, so.

Silver Crusade

Bane88 wrote:
Rednal wrote:
@Rorek: What template is this? Many templates adjust RACIAL hit dice, but don't affect CLASS dice in the slightest. Such a change would actually be quite unusual, so I'm kind of curious here. XD
Yeah in no way are templates adjusting your HD right? That's not a thing.

Clockwork replaces them, Eldritch Template replaces unless I read it wrong, I assumed it did as most others say keep class HD, if not I'll lose 4 hp :P. But one of the clockworks specifically state to replace them with d10s.


In other news, I'm probably going to make my character Gargantuan sized, because why not hahaha. Strike for massive damage if ever actually hit anything, lol. My attack bonuses are not fantastic.
I have my work cut out for me if I'm chosen, because it will make doodling the party very difficult.

I asked the DM for the price of an ability to shrink to large or huge, so I can actually fit in places. Hopefully it's 4 or less so I can afford it.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

I'm jumping on the band wagon and also voting to ban Mighty.

I also have crappy saves, but I'm a blaster so it hardly matters. We already get one free immunity, and more can be picked up easy from EP or FP.

I agree with bigrig that it's practically an auto-include with no real downsides for only a +4 adjustment.

And, speaking earlier to casting stats, I think the hard cap sits at 35 with the current rulers (+6 from an headband, +5 from a manual). Is that right?

Headband/items are limited by the 24 pt.


bigrig107 wrote:
Did you use FP for that, Arkothus?

10fp for constructed trait which the GM suggested since I was looking or a way to go construct and outsider.

Electricity immunity came for free.

Once I get these dishes done I'll finish Akothus up and consider some tweaks then see i we can do something to help our spellcasters.


I encourage people to worry more about damage than hitting. As things currently stand, just fighting near me could give you a +7 accuracy bonus. XD Teamwork, ho!


Reduce Person at-will?

Costs 16 R/FP.

Here's a question: has anyone taken any weaknesses in the race creator to try and get a few extra points?

Silver Crusade

Tamlakos wrote:

In other news, I'm probably going to make my character Gargantuan sized, because why not hahaha. Strike for massive damage if ever actually hit anything, lol. My attack bonuses are not fantastic.

I have my work cut out for me if I'm chosen, because it will make doodling the party very difficult.

I asked the DM for the price of an ability to shrink to large or huge, so I can actually fit in places. Hopefully it's 4 or less so I can afford it.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

I'm jumping on the band wagon and also voting to ban Mighty.

I also have crappy saves, but I'm a blaster so it hardly matters. We already get one free immunity, and more can be picked up easy from EP or FP.

I agree with bigrig that it's practically an auto-include with no real downsides for only a +4 adjustment.

And, speaking earlier to casting stats, I think the hard cap sits at 35 with the current rulers (+6 from an headband, +5 from a manual). Is that right?

Headband/items are limited by the 24 pt.

where does he state this? I've seen plenty of references that say templates/ability raises etc are capped. But nothing about items not being able to increase them. Well, they aren't Items anyway, just effects that mimic the items :P


Oh, damage isn't a problem.

2d6 (large rhoka) +3d6 acid (graveknight) +1d6 negative (neg-energy infused) +3d6 sneak attack.
9d6 on things that can be flanked, per hit.
And with strength, Power Attack, and studied target, I'll have plenty of damage.


He did say that our innate item bonuses can't put us past 24 points. I forget exactly where, but that's definite.


While the GM hasn't actually posted it here, The Archlich said that he did message him, and did institute the stat-cap on items.


bigrig107 wrote:


@Johnny- no, stat boosting items (at least the enhancement ones) can't boost a stat above 24. We haven't heard if that's staying though, so.

This ruling was overturned, I received word via PM, I had assumed others had as well

GM wrote:
Not a problem! Also, you did read that you can buy stat-enhancing bonuses and those can put you above the cap, right? New ruling of mine.
Quote:
Are you sure? Your post seems to imply the opposite
GM wrote:
This was a recent development as I did number-crunching and I determined that it will not super-break the game.

STAT BOOSTING ITEMS CAN TAKE YOU ABOVE 24

I can provide a screen shot of the messages if anyone needs further proof.


Oh! Okay, cool.

That fixes the issue with casters' DCs, somewhat.
I wanted more Charisma anyway, my saves for abilities were pitiful.


to be clear. I can put my Int at 24 then get a +6 "Item" to make it 30, correct?


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
to be clear. I can put my Int at 24 then get a +6 "Item" to make it 30, correct?

Apparently


Johnnycat93 wrote:

Reduce Person at-will?

Costs 16 R/FP.

Jesus christ, why? It's a 1st level spell.

Johnnycat93 wrote:


STAT BOOSTING ITEMS CAN TAKE YOU ABOVE 24

I can provide a screen shot of the messages if anyone needs further proof.

Oh that's awesome! My build probably won't change much ( MORE CONSTITUTION! ), but this is sure to help the casters out a bit.


That seems to be the case, now.


Are people really going to be using huge sized godlings for Str based casting and things like that? I was going to avoid 3pp stuff to keep from becoming too egregious but now I'm worried that I'll be shooting myself in the foot if I don't completely min/max...


Areniel wrote:
Are people really going to be using huge sized godlings for Str based casting and things like that? I was going to avoid 3pp stuff to keep from becoming too egregious but now I'm worried that I'll be shooting myself in the foot if I don't min/max...

I have the same concern. I'd rather not be a strength based caster, but if that's what i need to do to keep up I guess I'll go that route.

Edit: things tend to get wonky with 3pp stuff. Moreso in a triple gestalt, etc game as this.


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Tamlakos wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:

Reduce Person at-will?

Costs 16 R/FP.

Jesus christ, why? It's a 1st level spell.

Because I mashed my number pad! That's why!

It's actually 2 RP.


Can we just mutually agree not to do that?

Because then everyone will.

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