Abalia Kerensky |
Actually if a father or mother walks out on a family it is call Marital Abandonment, and while it isn't illegal it does give grounds for divorce. Also if one leaves to live at a distance from the family it doesn't automatically count as Marital Abandonment, the difference is often seen in the person’s refusal to provide necessary support, whether financial or otherwise, with no intention to return, or to fulfill those responsibilities.
It actually only become Criminal Abandonment when they've left a spouse who cannot take care of themselves and minor children. But so long as one of the two remains they aren't considered abandoning children.
Just walking out, which is all we really have them on right now, isn't illegal.
Dengorin Kaltaneos |
Unrelated to this discussion, but something I feel like I should mention, is that Dengorin would have had the Council tent set up in that manner regardless of the outcome of what happened with the deserters. After all, we need some place to have meetings and hear petitioner requests/complaints (and there will be some of both, I'm sure).
Varden Baile Phuir |
It is also illegal to claim a monarchy and have hereditary rule of land in the U.S., my question is very much one of what law structure are we using? Do all the peasants suddenly have the franchise? Are their blasphemy laws in place or could I start a cult of Norborger and Rovagug... and some how stick Chthulhu in there for good measure? Are we an adversarial system of laws, an inquisitorial system, or the ever joy of low justice and high justice? These usually don't matter in a normal game, but we are playing the game of kingdom building, we probably will be forced to make these kinds of decisions for the whole of our country... and what laws apply to each of us as well.
Abalia Kerensky |
I understand the question you're wanting answered, but the statement you made was:
Point of contention, abandoning your spouse and children has been illegal in almost every society including most modern ones. It is still a civil offense in pretty much every single nation that it is not outright legally punished.
I was just informing you that, that is incorrect and in places that is correct it is extremely hard to prove.
But I do agree that our characters need to sit down, or hell just even us here, and hash out some laws that would have been set upon the journey over the ocean.
Varden Baile Phuir |
Hence pretty much was used instead of every single one. Even among western nations, the UK and US are pretty unique in their systems of law, and the west is pretty unique in the world. Some of the countries I have made my home in have gleefully punished a man by caning if he refuses to support his obligations, forced labor is also not unheard of. Now, to be fair, such crimes are rare in countries that do have such harsh punishments in place.
Even with all that said, almost every country in the west will award restitution to a wife in a divorce, and it is the only form of debt that you can be placed in prison for if you can not afford what the courts believe you should pay in the U.S.. See previous comment about civil and legal offense even in western lands. It is marital abandonment law with extra steps.
Samuel Kerensky |
Interesting points all round.
Eragar asked me to clarify. We'll be sending out explorers, do we hire guys costing build points or risk some of the soldiers which is free but they might die and reduce that resource. Qazag was in favor of sending the troops. I was thinking more about holding onto the small number of troops but I can live with sending them. How do other people feel?
Abalia Kerensky |
Could we split it? Allow the troops to do the areas close to home and hire adventurers for the areas further away?
If we cannot then I would go for hiring guys. I'd rather go with that.
Qazag Qoroshúk |
My understanding was that we could do both. The troops are essentially free.
You can actually have multiple exploration edicts if you want. But you pay separately for each one.
In the first month I suggested we could sent a detachment of troops to explore areas nearby, and send the professional explorers further afield.
I think the first priority would be to explore the hill hex to the northwest of the capital. Since the combination of river and mountains make a defensive perimeter for the town, this hex is within that perimeter and is a good place to develop early.
But having the hexes to the south and southeast explored is important too. So I'd prefer two expeditions, one going west and one going southeast.
Samuel Kerensky |
I'm also free to lower the cost of explorations by 2BP, to a minimum of 1, since there's no taxes to be done. I can do for two turns before my penalty for being away kicks in.
I'm not sure I get you, as in Grimjaw goes exploring by himself? I'm not sure if the PCs are able since part of the campaign pitch was us not going adventuring.
Dengorin Kaltaneos |
To discuss some laws we would have figured out on the boat, I think we need to establish the following.
Punishment for major crimes against others (murder, high-value theft (over a certain GP amount), etc.)
Punishment for minor crimes against others (non-deadly assault such as a bar fight, low-value theft, vandalism)
Punishment for crimes against the government (espionage, sedition, treason, etc)
We should also decide if we want to ban any religions.
On the religion front, Dengorin would want to abolish the worship of demon lords hands down. Since demons seek to destroy civilization, he would be opposed to allowing their worshippers into the new colony.
Samuel Kerensky |
Major Crimes
-Murder: Execution but only with very solid evidence of course. Life in prison, or an extremely long sentence.
-High Value Theft: 100-1,000gp Flogging or fine, and jail time. 1,000+gp extremely long jail time, fine and flogging.
Minor Crimes
-Non Deadly Assault: Flogging, fine, community service or jail time.
-Low Value Theft: Flogging, community service or Jail time.
-Vandalism: Fine and community service
Crimes against the state and war crimes (make special note of Perfidy)
-Execution but only with very solid evidence of course. Life in prison, or an extremely long sentence.
I always solid evidence of course for executions because even though unlike the real world they can be brought back in fantasy lets face it we wont be able to do that.
On the subject of religions being outlawed I'd lean towards banning worship of demons (obviously including demon lords and Lamashtu), daemons (some worship the four horsemen or just generally want to destroy everything), Rovagug, Droskar and Norgorbor.
He wouldn't be opposed to a ban on Asmodeus, Diabolism, the Internal Dukes, the Infernal Lords all being outlawed but he's not sure if that can be swung so is prioritizing on the bigger problems. Of course this is different if they're almost always outlawed in this world but I am assuming something similar to pathfinder baseline.
Evin Kerensky |
As a new colony, we don't have enough resources for long-term imprisonment to be a feasible option. There's a reason that execution has been the norm for major crimes for most of history: lower sentences are a drain on the state.
A harsh punishment in this case would probably decrease loyalty. Evidence in real life shows that punishment without some sort of effective rehabilitation only leads to continued crimes on the part of the punished. We can't really afford either of those outcomes. I would personally encourage leniency for those who show remorse in our current scenario.
As for laws in general: I think Kevin O'Rourke's suggestions above are pretty on point.
I think when it comes to demon-worship that we can rely on the societal taboos from our parent kingdom for now. It SHOULD go without saying that we're not ok with actions that undermine society. But I really think private worship is one thing, whilst raising an army of the undead to overthrow us is different. We'd take issue with raising any kind of army against us, not just a demon-worshipper doing it.
Abalia Kerensky |
Maybe till we have the resources for long-term imprisonment we could sub it out with hard labor?
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Is it cruel to make them build their own prison? Because hard labor right now would be building things... and we'd need a place for long-term imprisonment, so they could end up building their own prison.
Qazag Qoroshúk |
Qazag's main issue would be whether or not the offender is a danger to others, or to the community as a whole. If it is reasonable to expect that the person is dangerous based on past actions then to Qazag death would seem a reasonable punishment.
Qazag wouldn't really approve of keeping a prison for people. There is some merit to having a jail as a place to store people who have been apprehended or need to "cool off" but he would not like the idea of prison as a long term punishment. It would seem both cruel and wasteful. And he wouldn't approve of selling people into slavery or using them as slaves either.
On the other hand he would have no problem with beatings or public flogging or branding or cutting bits off people. An important part of justice is that the community is satisfied that appropriate punishment has occurred, and if those things satisfy the public then he would consent.
If someone commits a crime against property then they should incur a debt in greater value than the wealth they stole or destroyed. Beyond that though he would see no need for any further punishment unless the behavior is either chronic or life-threatening in some way. Someone who steals food during a famine or steals military supplies is putting lives at risk and that is much more serious.
We ought to also have a system where a family member or other interested party can take responsibility for a criminal's good behavior in the future. This gives the system an "out" if people don't believe the person deserves the indicated punishment.
Samuel Kerensky |
Yeah day one before we have any comfort or a jail built someone pulled this crap. Who's the ringleader, a half orc thats who. We should kill all half orcs am I right? Except Qazag, he's not half bad! *makes gasping noises as Qazag strangles him with his not half bad hand*
Abalia Kerensky |
There isn't really more we can do with them, but making them do the worst part of it. We've nothing to keep them in, but unpaid labor is a punishment, and kinda the only one we have. Outside of removing one of their hands for theft.
Dengorin Kaltaneos |
Ah, but Kurhat, these men clearly don't have the honor of the mighty dwarves, and the branded would just try again. One must make consideration for other cultures, after all.
Unrelated, Samuel, have you read the Wheel of Time series? Because the first punishment you suggested sounded a bit like what a da'tsang would do.
Samuel Kerensky |
I think one of the big problems we are having is, what the hell is the baseline from our parent country and more particularly how it is enforced in start up colonies. Is there any presedence for this kind of situation Eragar? I think we're all unsure and could use a bit of a yard stick so we aren't over or under enforcing the law.
Which I know is an awkward question because it's not fun if we end up constantly going asking questions like this but it's early days.
Samuel Kerensky |
I swear to the core Pantheon if his actions are some scheme by Varden to set an example/identify those most likely to try and separate and Kael is working for Varden... grumble grumble
I doubt that though. I don't like any of the angles I have brewed up Varden might be going for with Kael.
Varden Baile Phuir |
What, purposely come on board without a squad of attendants because I had secretly placed a few hand picked men in among the main push of settlers... and a few in the next push coming in a few months.
You think too much, worry over such things will have you jumping at shadows. It isn't like a rabble rouser fomented a revolt below decks on one ship so as to see how the main council would react to an unprecedented issue on the fly, there by giving me all the info I needed on individual councillors and their attitudes. Shame we lost that poor commoner, but now we know we have a large predator in close proximity.
Eragar |
I think one of the big problems we are having is, what the hell is the baseline from our parent country and more particularly how it is enforced in start up colonies. Is there any presedence for this kind of situation Eragar? I think we're all unsure and could use a bit of a yard stick so we aren't over or under enforcing the law.
Where you guys are at is pretty close. 5-10 stripes and/or a small fine for most of them. A couple years in prison and/or a large fine for Kael (you could use one of the ships to hold him for now). Sending Kael far away with minimal supplies would also probably be pretty reasonable.
These would go up significantly if you choose to have a felony murder rule in your kingdom, but it looks like you're leaning away from that.
Dengorin Kaltaneos |
Define a "small fine". Untrained labor makes 1 sp a week. A commoner trained in a Craft or Profession, assuming a level 1 NPC with the NPC array and a 13 in the relevant skill's stat, makes 7.5 gp a week, 9 gp a week with Skill Focus in that Craft or Profession. So, the question would be how long do we want these men to take to pay off the fine? A non-combat trained light horse is 75 gp, which means 10 weeks if the convicted only uses their money to pay the fine. They won't, so likely longer. This takes much longer if any of these guys are untrained laborers.
However, a lesser fine, say 10 gp, will only take 2 weeks to pay for the trained worker. Not a particularly harsh punishment, there.
Eragar |
To answer sooner of the questions in the gameplay thread, my above post is about the level of punishment they would have gotten in Break. Most trials are conducted by a judge (usually a priest of Abadar, but sometimes someone else), who technically has complete discretion with sentencing (so you they could execute someone for petty theft, but that never actually happens). Bail is pretty much nonexistent, same with a right to counsel. No jury.
A small fine would probably be between 3-10 gold.
Finally, at least two of the shops will be staying for a couple of months, mostly to help with housing.
Dengorin Kaltaneos |
We were planning on building a barracks, right? I imagine we could have a section of jail cells as part of that, and lock him up there. It would be temporary, but it's definitely an option. Hold him on one of the ships that's staying until its complete.
Also, strictly speaking, as a priest of Abadar, would I be the one to render judgement, or, in this case, should we have Samuel?
Eragar |
We were planning on building a barracks, right? I imagine we could have a section of jail cells as part of that, and lock him up there. It would be temporary, but it's definitely an option. Hold him on one of the ships that's staying until its complete.
Also, strictly speaking, as a priest of Abadar, would I be the one to render judgement, or, in this case, should we have Samuel?
Samuel would be the one to appoint a judge (or choose to not have a single judge). Usually that would be as priest of Abadar, but it could be whoever he wants.
Qazag Qoroshúk |
From gameplay:
I'm going to move forward. Dengorin, let me know what the verdict(s) are for the trial
Isn't that in the hands of the jury?
Two exploration parties were sent out.
I take it the colored areas on the map are the ones that have been explored? I take it nothing of interest was found (resources, landmarks, ruins, natives, etc.).
Your citizen's have built two Tenements at no cost to you.
Two questions:
1. Do these tenements cause unrest like they normally would? If so our unrest would be at 4, which is really bad.
2. Are you waiving the preparation time for the town site? We didn't build any city improvements turn 1 because the site wasn't ready. Or are these tenements being built in turn 2?