The Colony of Varas--A Kingdom Building Game

Game Master Eragar


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Queen Abalia Human Sorceress 3/ Co-Ruler (+6 to Economy)

Actually if a father or mother walks out on a family it is call Marital Abandonment, and while it isn't illegal it does give grounds for divorce. Also if one leaves to live at a distance from the family it doesn't automatically count as Marital Abandonment, the difference is often seen in the person’s refusal to provide necessary support, whether financial or otherwise, with no intention to return, or to fulfill those responsibilities.

It actually only become Criminal Abandonment when they've left a spouse who cannot take care of themselves and minor children. But so long as one of the two remains they aren't considered abandoning children.

Just walking out, which is all we really have them on right now, isn't illegal.


Male Human Cleric (cardinal) 3 | Councilor

Unrelated to this discussion, but something I feel like I should mention, is that Dengorin would have had the Council tent set up in that manner regardless of the outcome of what happened with the deserters. After all, we need some place to have meetings and hear petitioner requests/complaints (and there will be some of both, I'm sure).


empiricism 3. magister and spymaster

It is also illegal to claim a monarchy and have hereditary rule of land in the U.S., my question is very much one of what law structure are we using? Do all the peasants suddenly have the franchise? Are their blasphemy laws in place or could I start a cult of Norborger and Rovagug... and some how stick Chthulhu in there for good measure? Are we an adversarial system of laws, an inquisitorial system, or the ever joy of low justice and high justice? These usually don't matter in a normal game, but we are playing the game of kingdom building, we probably will be forced to make these kinds of decisions for the whole of our country... and what laws apply to each of us as well.


Queen Abalia Human Sorceress 3/ Co-Ruler (+6 to Economy)

I understand the question you're wanting answered, but the statement you made was:

Varden Baile Phuir wrote:
Point of contention, abandoning your spouse and children has been illegal in almost every society including most modern ones. It is still a civil offense in pretty much every single nation that it is not outright legally punished.

I was just informing you that, that is incorrect and in places that is correct it is extremely hard to prove.

But I do agree that our characters need to sit down, or hell just even us here, and hash out some laws that would have been set upon the journey over the ocean.


empiricism 3. magister and spymaster

Hence pretty much was used instead of every single one. Even among western nations, the UK and US are pretty unique in their systems of law, and the west is pretty unique in the world. Some of the countries I have made my home in have gleefully punished a man by caning if he refuses to support his obligations, forced labor is also not unheard of. Now, to be fair, such crimes are rare in countries that do have such harsh punishments in place.

Even with all that said, almost every country in the west will award restitution to a wife in a divorce, and it is the only form of debt that you can be placed in prison for if you can not afford what the courts believe you should pay in the U.S.. See previous comment about civil and legal offense even in western lands. It is marital abandonment law with extra steps.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

Interesting points all round.

Eragar asked me to clarify. We'll be sending out explorers, do we hire guys costing build points or risk some of the soldiers which is free but they might die and reduce that resource. Qazag was in favor of sending the troops. I was thinking more about holding onto the small number of troops but I can live with sending them. How do other people feel?


Queen Abalia Human Sorceress 3/ Co-Ruler (+6 to Economy)

Could we split it? Allow the troops to do the areas close to home and hire adventurers for the areas further away?
If we cannot then I would go for hiring guys. I'd rather go with that.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

I think we could do both not split. The action takes a month either way.


My understanding was that we could do both. The troops are essentially free.

You can actually have multiple exploration edicts if you want. But you pay separately for each one.

In the first month I suggested we could sent a detachment of troops to explore areas nearby, and send the professional explorers further afield.

I think the first priority would be to explore the hill hex to the northwest of the capital. Since the combination of river and mountains make a defensive perimeter for the town, this hex is within that perimeter and is a good place to develop early.

But having the hexes to the south and southeast explored is important too. So I'd prefer two expeditions, one going west and one going southeast.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

Ah ok I get you better now


Treasurer, +7 Economy

I'm also free to lower the cost of explorations by 2BP, to a minimum of 1, since there's no taxes to be done. I can do for two turns before my penalty for being away kicks in.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18
Kurhat Grimjaw wrote:
I'm also free to lower the cost of explorations by 2BP, to a minimum of 1, since there's no taxes to be done. I can do for two turns before my penalty for being away kicks in.

I'm not sure I get you, as in Grimjaw goes exploring by himself? I'm not sure if the PCs are able since part of the campaign pitch was us not going adventuring.


Treasurer, +7 Economy

Earlier in the discussion, GM mentioned the PCs can join a scouting party to reduce the cost. It's not really adventuring per se, more like overseeing an expedition.

Scarab Sages

Sorry folks, slept in and I'm about to walk out the door. I'll post as soon as I get home in the morning


Male Human Cleric (cardinal) 3 | Councilor

To discuss some laws we would have figured out on the boat, I think we need to establish the following.

Punishment for major crimes against others (murder, high-value theft (over a certain GP amount), etc.)
Punishment for minor crimes against others (non-deadly assault such as a bar fight, low-value theft, vandalism)
Punishment for crimes against the government (espionage, sedition, treason, etc)

We should also decide if we want to ban any religions.

On the religion front, Dengorin would want to abolish the worship of demon lords hands down. Since demons seek to destroy civilization, he would be opposed to allowing their worshippers into the new colony.


Female Human Oracle 3 / +16 Stability

Sorry again, I wont be able to post much til monday.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

Major Crimes
-Murder: Execution but only with very solid evidence of course. Life in prison, or an extremely long sentence.
-High Value Theft: 100-1,000gp Flogging or fine, and jail time. 1,000+gp extremely long jail time, fine and flogging.
Minor Crimes
-Non Deadly Assault: Flogging, fine, community service or jail time.
-Low Value Theft: Flogging, community service or Jail time.
-Vandalism: Fine and community service
Crimes against the state and war crimes (make special note of Perfidy)
-Execution but only with very solid evidence of course. Life in prison, or an extremely long sentence.

I always solid evidence of course for executions because even though unlike the real world they can be brought back in fantasy lets face it we wont be able to do that.

On the subject of religions being outlawed I'd lean towards banning worship of demons (obviously including demon lords and Lamashtu), daemons (some worship the four horsemen or just generally want to destroy everything), Rovagug, Droskar and Norgorbor.

He wouldn't be opposed to a ban on Asmodeus, Diabolism, the Internal Dukes, the Infernal Lords all being outlawed but he's not sure if that can be swung so is prioritizing on the bigger problems. Of course this is different if they're almost always outlawed in this world but I am assuming something similar to pathfinder baseline.


Male human Ranger/3

As a new colony, we don't have enough resources for long-term imprisonment to be a feasible option. There's a reason that execution has been the norm for major crimes for most of history: lower sentences are a drain on the state.

A harsh punishment in this case would probably decrease loyalty. Evidence in real life shows that punishment without some sort of effective rehabilitation only leads to continued crimes on the part of the punished. We can't really afford either of those outcomes. I would personally encourage leniency for those who show remorse in our current scenario.

As for laws in general: I think Kevin O'Rourke's suggestions above are pretty on point.

I think when it comes to demon-worship that we can rely on the societal taboos from our parent kingdom for now. It SHOULD go without saying that we're not ok with actions that undermine society. But I really think private worship is one thing, whilst raising an army of the undead to overthrow us is different. We'd take issue with raising any kind of army against us, not just a demon-worshipper doing it.


Queen Abalia Human Sorceress 3/ Co-Ruler (+6 to Economy)

Maybe till we have the resources for long-term imprisonment we could sub it out with hard labor?
>>
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Is it cruel to make them build their own prison? Because hard labor right now would be building things... and we'd need a place for long-term imprisonment, so they could end up building their own prison.

Scarab Sages

Before I forget again, after this fiasco dies down Caspian will reluctantly agree to meet with the Kerensky's. We'll do that conversation in the google doc.

nothing:
1d100 ⇒ 82
1d4 ⇒ 1
1d100 ⇒ 23
1d100 ⇒ 38
1d100 ⇒ 81


Qazag's main issue would be whether or not the offender is a danger to others, or to the community as a whole. If it is reasonable to expect that the person is dangerous based on past actions then to Qazag death would seem a reasonable punishment.

Qazag wouldn't really approve of keeping a prison for people. There is some merit to having a jail as a place to store people who have been apprehended or need to "cool off" but he would not like the idea of prison as a long term punishment. It would seem both cruel and wasteful. And he wouldn't approve of selling people into slavery or using them as slaves either.

On the other hand he would have no problem with beatings or public flogging or branding or cutting bits off people. An important part of justice is that the community is satisfied that appropriate punishment has occurred, and if those things satisfy the public then he would consent.

If someone commits a crime against property then they should incur a debt in greater value than the wealth they stole or destroyed. Beyond that though he would see no need for any further punishment unless the behavior is either chronic or life-threatening in some way. Someone who steals food during a famine or steals military supplies is putting lives at risk and that is much more serious.

We ought to also have a system where a family member or other interested party can take responsibility for a criminal's good behavior in the future. This gives the system an "out" if people don't believe the person deserves the indicated punishment.


Male human Ranger/3

The only problem I see with having criminals serve a term of hard labor is that literally everyone in the colony will be doing hard labor for a while. That will end eventually, though.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

Yeah day one before we have any comfort or a jail built someone pulled this crap. Who's the ringleader, a half orc thats who. We should kill all half orcs am I right? Except Qazag, he's not half bad! *makes gasping noises as Qazag strangles him with his not half bad hand*


Queen Abalia Human Sorceress 3/ Co-Ruler (+6 to Economy)

There isn't really more we can do with them, but making them do the worst part of it. We've nothing to keep them in, but unpaid labor is a punishment, and kinda the only one we have. Outside of removing one of their hands for theft.


Male human Ranger/3

And removing their hands would kinda destroy an important part of our workforce.

Scarab Sages

Careful there Samuel, I might not need to send any NPC's to assassinate you; they other players will do it for me.


empiricism 3. magister and spymaster

I have some suggestions on law...

*Looks at other's suggestions.*

Um......

*Quietly puts away his Mishna and Talmud.*

Never mind, you guys got this covered.


Treasurer, +7 Economy

*Grumbles back from a trip* Oi, lookat 'em, all arguin' over this wrong and that wrong. Back in mah day, we just stamp them on a head as caste-less scum and it sets itself roight, it does. Then whatever else the offended want on top. Like a good, solid brew of law enforcement.


Male Human Cleric (cardinal) 3 | Councilor

Ah, but Kurhat, these men clearly don't have the honor of the mighty dwarves, and the branded would just try again. One must make consideration for other cultures, after all.

Unrelated, Samuel, have you read the Wheel of Time series? Because the first punishment you suggested sounded a bit like what a da'tsang would do.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

Yes, though its been years, the final few books have come out since


Male Human Cleric (cardinal) 3 | Councilor

You should see about catching up. Brandon Sanderson did a fairly good job wrapping things up after Robert Jordan passed. Plus the differences in their writing styles are interesting side-by-side.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

Yeah I have some friends who were very happy about the more brisk pacing. Did you ever read the foreword to the RPG by Robert Jordan?


Male Human Cleric (cardinal) 3 | Councilor

I did, as I own a copy of it. I've been working on a personal project on and off for the past couple of years trying to update the rules for it to something more Pathfinder.


Treasurer, +7 Economy

Honorless cur! Filthy N'wahs, the lot of them.

It was in that moment the party realized, Kurhat's secret identity was...a Dunmer!


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

Yeah if this weren't a vassal state to the Kingdom, Samuel would probably be more forgiving.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

I think one of the big problems we are having is, what the hell is the baseline from our parent country and more particularly how it is enforced in start up colonies. Is there any presedence for this kind of situation Eragar? I think we're all unsure and could use a bit of a yard stick so we aren't over or under enforcing the law.

Which I know is an awkward question because it's not fun if we end up constantly going asking questions like this but it's early days.


empiricism 3. magister and spymaster

Figured now was the nest point to drop that bombshell.


Male Lt. Junior Grade. Stress 12/18

I swear to the core Pantheon if his actions are some scheme by Varden to set an example/identify those most likely to try and separate and Kael is working for Varden... grumble grumble

I doubt that though. I don't like any of the angles I have brewed up Varden might be going for with Kael.


empiricism 3. magister and spymaster

What, purposely come on board without a squad of attendants because I had secretly placed a few hand picked men in among the main push of settlers... and a few in the next push coming in a few months.

You think too much, worry over such things will have you jumping at shadows. It isn't like a rabble rouser fomented a revolt below decks on one ship so as to see how the main council would react to an unprecedented issue on the fly, there by giving me all the info I needed on individual councillors and their attitudes. Shame we lost that poor commoner, but now we know we have a large predator in close proximity.


Treasurer, +7 Economy

Aye, and it's me! Ose is my favorite guy to worship! Turn into Fafnir and take all the gold and ride off into the sunset, that's what we'll do!


Female Human Oracle 3 / +16 Stability

Ok, finally i should be able to post on a regular basis.

Scarab Sages

Samuel Kerensky wrote:
I think one of the big problems we are having is, what the hell is the baseline from our parent country and more particularly how it is enforced in start up colonies. Is there any presedence for this kind of situation Eragar? I think we're all unsure and could use a bit of a yard stick so we aren't over or under enforcing the law.

Where you guys are at is pretty close. 5-10 stripes and/or a small fine for most of them. A couple years in prison and/or a large fine for Kael (you could use one of the ships to hold him for now). Sending Kael far away with minimal supplies would also probably be pretty reasonable.

These would go up significantly if you choose to have a felony murder rule in your kingdom, but it looks like you're leaning away from that.


Male Human Cleric (cardinal) 3 | Councilor

Define a "small fine". Untrained labor makes 1 sp a week. A commoner trained in a Craft or Profession, assuming a level 1 NPC with the NPC array and a 13 in the relevant skill's stat, makes 7.5 gp a week, 9 gp a week with Skill Focus in that Craft or Profession. So, the question would be how long do we want these men to take to pay off the fine? A non-combat trained light horse is 75 gp, which means 10 weeks if the convicted only uses their money to pay the fine. They won't, so likely longer. This takes much longer if any of these guys are untrained laborers.

However, a lesser fine, say 10 gp, will only take 2 weeks to pay for the trained worker. Not a particularly harsh punishment, there.


Treasurer, +7 Economy

Aye, we should fine them more, MORE money! Our taxes will be so low and people will be so happy, but our fines will be soul-crushingly heavy, wrapped around red-tape that no one will escape from.

How to make a very lawful neutral society.

Scarab Sages

To answer sooner of the questions in the gameplay thread, my above post is about the level of punishment they would have gotten in Break. Most trials are conducted by a judge (usually a priest of Abadar, but sometimes someone else), who technically has complete discretion with sentencing (so you they could execute someone for petty theft, but that never actually happens). Bail is pretty much nonexistent, same with a right to counsel. No jury.

A small fine would probably be between 3-10 gold.

Finally, at least two of the shops will be staying for a couple of months, mostly to help with housing.


Male Human Cleric (cardinal) 3 | Councilor

We were planning on building a barracks, right? I imagine we could have a section of jail cells as part of that, and lock him up there. It would be temporary, but it's definitely an option. Hold him on one of the ships that's staying until its complete.

Also, strictly speaking, as a priest of Abadar, would I be the one to render judgement, or, in this case, should we have Samuel?

Scarab Sages

Dengorin Kaltaneos wrote:

We were planning on building a barracks, right? I imagine we could have a section of jail cells as part of that, and lock him up there. It would be temporary, but it's definitely an option. Hold him on one of the ships that's staying until its complete.

Also, strictly speaking, as a priest of Abadar, would I be the one to render judgement, or, in this case, should we have Samuel?

Samuel would be the one to appoint a judge (or choose to not have a single judge). Usually that would be as priest of Abadar, but it could be whoever he wants.


For the record, even as late as the eighteenth century trials rarely lasted more than a day or so. In this case the facts of the case are not in dispute, so I don't imagine that it would take long.


empiricism 3. magister and spymaster

Some trials are still that quick today, outside of most of the first world.


From gameplay:

Eragar wrote:
I'm going to move forward. Dengorin, let me know what the verdict(s) are for the trial

Isn't that in the hands of the jury?

Eragar wrote:
Two exploration parties were sent out.

I take it the colored areas on the map are the ones that have been explored? I take it nothing of interest was found (resources, landmarks, ruins, natives, etc.).

Eragar wrote:
Your citizen's have built two Tenements at no cost to you.

Two questions:

1. Do these tenements cause unrest like they normally would? If so our unrest would be at 4, which is really bad.

2. Are you waiving the preparation time for the town site? We didn't build any city improvements turn 1 because the site wasn't ready. Or are these tenements being built in turn 2?

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