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Team PVP

Game Master ciretose

Post general discussion and open challenges in the discussion thread.

Challenges should include participant, location (preferably in the form of a link to a google map of where you would like the battle to take place), and any special guidelines


Liberty's Edge

I had an idea for a PvP format that I wanted to throw out there and see if it sticks.

Everyone starts with a team of first level characters built with a 25 point using the standard starting gold for each class and the PFS guidelines for allowed materials and books.

Teams of 4 meet in a series of fixed arenas in premade map environments, (perhaps using battle mats on Google Docs.

Contestants that win gain XP and prize money equal to ¼ of the WBL for the level above you. For example, a fight between 1st level teams would pay 250 gp to each member of the winning team (1/4 of 1000 WBL for 2nd level characters).

If you are rendered unconscious you lose. If a team member dies, the team must either pay to be brought back or recruit a new team mate starting at first level.

Each team member would post as a separate alias, leveling and buying items as they win.

As time passes, teams and individuals on teams will rise in level and power. Factions will likely form, people will create stables of players on various teams, and champions will emerge.

Challenges will be between players and groups. Players can team up with each other, so long as the 4 vs 4 format remains. This format should help prevent "Rock/Paper/Scissors" situations, as you will have to plan to defeat an entire party, not just a single person.

Thoughts? Interest?


This sounds interesting.

Would we be running our own teams or would we be making up 1 of a team of 4?

Liberty's Edge

DM Mathpro wrote:

This sounds interesting.

Would we be running our own teams or would we be making up 1 of a team of 4?

I could see it both ways. I fully expect people to create teams, but then later on as they level find themselves short of team members because of death and recruiting from other teams. Or them just wanting to team up, because they can see a good synergy.

I view it as 4 people come into the room on either side, some walk out with XP and gold, some don't.


I'm willing to give this a try but how will you address the issue of one team possibly constantly winning and advancing far beyond where the others can match them?


any race restrictions for this?

Liberty's Edge

Warsor wrote:
I'm willing to give this a try but how will you address the issue of one team possibly constantly winning and advancing far beyond where the others can match them?

You can only advance as far as you have competition. If a group is levels above another, they will have to wait for others to catch up, as no one is realistically going to challenge a party they think will wipe the floor with them.

The higher group can either wait for others to keep up, or work on leveling a "JV" team of players to fill in when death occurs.

Liberty's Edge

mathpro18 wrote:
any race restrictions for this?

PFS guidelines.


So make 4 character right?

Liberty's Edge

Warsor wrote:
So make 4 character right?

Yup, then post a challenge over on the discussion thread with a link to the location where you want the fight to take place, along with any other ground-rules you want to set and wait for someone to take you up on your challenge.


I'm down for this. I have played in a couple of arenas and liked it pretty well.


I'm interested, as I was in the last thread, but some of my concerns about people only challenging those they feel they could easily beat (and only being challenged by people who feel can beat them) still stand. Is it possible that we could create the teams offline, and then once we have agreed to a combat the team char sheets are sent to the GM who makes sure they're legal? This would help solve the potential nobody-ever-fights-anything-besides-mirror-matches problem.

It also makes sense that in an arena fight you may know the reputation of your opponent but not every aspect of their skill set. This would allow for some cool mid-match surprises (oh my god I didn't know that guy had spells!) and would prevent a good deal of metagaming. You shouldn't know your opponent's AC and saves before combat starts, it doesn't make sense or add to the combat in a positive way.

Players could write up an alias of physical descriptions, including visible gear, obvious animal companions/familiars, and other stuff that an arena combatant would be able to tell with a knowledge (something) check. This would lead to some seriously fun and badass arena fights, in my opinion. The DM (and also people being fair and good sports) is able to make sure that the players don't depart from their sheets, but the full information about an opponent isn't one click away at all times.

I'm willing to offer my services as a DM/arbiter for this sort of game, and I'd also love to play it.

Also, before any of these matches take place we should clarify exactly what parts of the "PFS guidelines" are being used / not used, and establish a list of banned stuff. PvP requires a clear and balanced rule set more than traditional party-based campaigns.

All of my nit-picking aside, let's get some PvP going! I was quite sad when the other thread died.

Liberty's Edge

Jehova wrote:

I'm interested, as I was in the last thread, but some of my concerns about people only challenging those they feel they could easily beat (and only being challenged by people who feel can beat them) still stand. Is it possible that we could create the teams offline, and then once we have agreed to a combat the team char sheets are sent to the GM who makes sure they're legal? This would help solve the potential nobody-ever-fights-anything-besides-mirror-matches problem.

It also makes sense that in an arena fight you may know the reputation of your opponent but not every aspect of their skill set. This would allow for some cool mid-match surprises (oh my god I didn't know that guy had spells!) and would prevent a good deal of metagaming. You shouldn't know your opponent's AC and saves before combat starts, it doesn't make sense or add to the combat in a positive way.

Players could write up an alias of physical descriptions, including visible gear, obvious animal companions/familiars, and other stuff that an arena combatant would be able to tell with a knowledge (something) check. This would lead to some seriously fun and badass arena fights, in my opinion. The DM (and also people being fair and good sports) is able to make sure that the players don't depart from their sheets, but the full information about an opponent isn't one click away at all times.

I'm willing to offer my services as a DM/arbiter for this sort of game, and I'd also love to play it.

Also, before any of these matches take place we should clarify exactly what parts of the "PFS guidelines" are being used / not used, and establish a list of banned stuff. PvP requires a clear and balanced rule set more than traditional party-based campaigns.

All of my nit-picking aside, let's get some PvP going! I was quite sad when the other thread died.

My response is pretty much the same as the other thread, only I think you should be designing a party that can deal with anything, so the Rock/Paper/Scissors aspect is hard to pull off.


Ciretose I've made my gladiators but a lot of questions I have will come up, namely specific rulings, who do I show my characters to, and how to handle teams who constantly win and are much more wealthy and powerful then newcomers to the arena.


Is this game open to everyone or is there a selection process similar to normal recruitment? Can people come up with new teams after suffering defeat? My PvP skills are non-existant and I'm interested in training them :) Do I just create an alias for the team and present it in the discussion thread?


I think I am in.

I have never had to make an entire team before. It will be interesting.


A major issue I see happening is that the losers gain nothing, not even a little xp for survivors which could at least mean that grizzled vets could learn from their failures. Making it winner take all will eliminate players who get tpked repeatedly from wanting to play again. Same with money.

Also what xp track is this on?

Liberty's Edge

Warsor wrote:
Ciretose I've made my gladiators but a lot of questions I have will come up, namely specific rulings, who do I show my characters to, and how to handle teams who constantly win and are much more wealthy and powerful then newcomers to the arena.

Post each of them under an alias, and I can assure you anyone who will challenge you is going to check them for accuracy before they step into the ring.

At the bottom of each alias should be a win/loss chart as well as "Gold won" chart.

Teams are going to advance ahead of others, and they will have to wait for others to catch up, as no one is going to accept a challenge they don't think they can win and risk a TPK.

I think party deaths are going to be the great equalizer.

Liberty's Edge

flykiller wrote:
Is this game open to everyone or is there a selection process similar to normal recruitment? Can people come up with new teams after suffering defeat? My PvP skills are non-existant and I'm interested in training them :) Do I just create an alias for the team and present it in the discussion thread?

You can create new teams (or move survivors around) but any new players you add to a team always start at level one, base gold.

This encourages people to create minor as well as major league teams, as well as cross team recruitment.

The goal is to get gold and levels.

Liberty's Edge

Warsor wrote:

A major issue I see happening is that the losers gain nothing, not even a little xp for survivors which could at least mean that grizzled vets could learn from their failures. Making it winner take all will eliminate players who get tpked repeatedly from wanting to play again. Same with money.

Also what xp track is this on?

But even winners could lose team mates (or at least resurrection costs), particularly as damage goes up with levels.

I could see individuals challenging teams later as well.

Medium progression.


Is every fight going to happen on a separate day, i.e. casters always start fully prepared and limited ability uses are recharged?
Are the survivors auto-healed between fights? Only HP or any conditions and ability damage too?
Are pre-buffs allowed? It would make sense for a gladiator to prepare for a fight if he knows in advance when it's going to start, what the arena is and who his opponents are.
Will all the fights happen in a single thread or separate threads?

Liberty's Edge

@flykiller

1. Yes, separate day.
2. Yes, the presumption is that you go off to recover before you come back.
3. No pre-buffs.
4. Separate threads. You can use the game play thread or you can go off on your own with the other player and GM to another thread and have the GM come back and report the results.


I have a question on this...

should I use 1 alias for a whole team or a different alias for each team member?

Liberty's Edge

Different alias for each team member. Team members could die and/or switch teams.

The concept is that you create a stable of characters that can step in when others die, all of which start at 1st level with base gold.


ciretose wrote:

But even winners could lose team mates (or at least resurrection costs), particularly as damage goes up with levels.

I could see individuals challenging teams later as well.

Medium progression.

This may look good on paper but I doubt it'll work out as well if you get no xp for losing and you decide to quit because you've lost 5 times and had to remake new characters repeatedly.

I also can make the character into alias but that brings up a earlier point someone made that basically puts all their stats on display for opponents to look at every Achilles heel. If there was a way to just show them to the DM I would prefer that method which would make it so people didn't always know what they were going up against, just at the DM legitimized both sides.

Liberty's Edge

@Warsor

If you lose 5 times and you need to make better characters, someone else has beaten you 5 times and gained XP to move on their characters to compete with more effective players.

It's a ladder system, which works very effectively. If you get beat, you stay at the same level. If you win you move up to compete with other winners who are competing at the next level.

And yes your opponents will look for an Achilles Heel. So don't have one. You have four players to build a team that can cover each others weaknesses and add to each others strengths.


ciretose wrote:

@Warsor

If you lose 5 times and you need to make better characters, someone else has beaten you 5 times and gained XP to move on their characters to compete with more effective players.

It's a ladder system, which works very effectively. If you get beat, you stay at the same level. If you win you move up to compete with other winners who are competing at the next level.

And yes your opponents will look for an Achilles Heel. So don't have one. You have four players to build a team that can cover each others weaknesses and add to each others strengths.

Your ladder only works if there is a constant inflow of new players. Once you find yourself at the top of the ladder there is no one you can challenge due to either being too powerful or them ignoring your challenge because that will just make you stronger. Basicly your setting up a system where only a few people will make it to the top and then once they have consolidated their position it'll be near impossible for new players to rise through the ranks. The people who get stepped on for others to increase their xp and gold will get nothing in return and probably not choose to remake new characters and start the process all over again.

Liberty's Edge

Warsor wrote:


Your ladder only works if there is a constant inflow of new players. Once you find yourself at the top of the ladder there is no one you can challenge due to either being too powerful or them ignoring your challenge because that will just make you stronger. Basicly your setting up a system where only a few people will make it to the top and then once they have consolidated their position it'll be near impossible for new players to rise through the ranks. The people who get stepped on for others to increase their xp and gold will get nothing in return and probably not choose to remake new characters and start the process all over again.

I'm hoping it becomes popular. Call me an optimist.


I have a challenge hanging out on the disccusion thread. If anyone wants to give their team a shot then lets do this. I assume Ciretose can DM for us.


I am about halfway through with creating a team. I even have a name for them - the 8-ball :) I'll try to finish them within a day or two, unless I get completely sweeped by Diablo 3 ;)


I am putting together a team just need to come up with a good combination that I like


I'll be throwing my team together later tonight once I finish drawing up a level 20 cleric/holy vidicator I'm making for another game.


I don't like making avatars, but then again I can just use old avatars. I have enough abandoned pvp games that I know I have 4.

I will have a team up by tomorrow if I am going to get in.

Liberty's Edge

Mr. Swagger wrote:

I don't like making avatars, but then again I can just use old avatars. I have enough abandoned pvp games that I know I have 4.

I will have a team up by tomorrow if I am going to get in.

Sure.


Keeping this alive. Ciretose how do you plan to handle some class features that require some amount of prep? I.e. the summoner's eidolon usually requires 1 minute to summon. If they do not have their eidolon active at fight start the class will be severely hampered. Also an alchemist with extracts can give them to others for the day, will you allow party members to have objects start off passed between them or do so after combat starts?


I will be setting a team up tonight,and probably be ready for play tomorrow.I also have a few friends who might be willing to play.

A couple quick questions:
*How do you handle stealth? Are players looking at each other before the start of the battle?
*If one of your team is knocked unconscious,does the entire team lose,or can they keep on fighting? It would be really tough if a caster was on your team at the starting levels and he died,causing your whole team to lose.
*If they knock your whole team unconscious,do they have the choice of killing them? Would an 'Arena Master' decide based on their performance?


Actually,I will be going out of town for a couple days to a place with no wi-fi.Sorry.

Liberty's Edge

Warsor wrote:
Keeping this alive. Ciretose how do you plan to handle some class features that require some amount of prep? I.e. the summoner's eidolon usually requires 1 minute to summon. If they do not have their eidolon active at fight start the class will be severely hampered. Also an alchemist with extracts can give them to others for the day, will you allow party members to have objects start off passed between them or do so after combat starts?

Case by case.

Yes you can have your eidolon active and you may decide who as what on them at the start of the fight, but you can't take any potions or cast any buffs prior to the fight.

EDIT: Buffs that are permanent you can have. I may also make exceptions for 24 hour buffs, again case by case.

Liberty's Edge

Durzan wrote:

I will be setting a team up tonight,and probably be ready for play tomorrow.I also have a few friends who might be willing to play.

A couple quick questions:
*How do you handle stealth? Are players looking at each other before the start of the battle?
*If one of your team is knocked unconscious,does the entire team lose,or can they keep on fighting? It would be really tough if a caster was on your team at the starting levels and he died,causing your whole team to lose.
*If they knock your whole team unconscious,do they have the choice of killing them? Would an 'Arena Master' decide based on their performance?

1. The battlefield will determine who and what you see. If you start outside of line of sight (for example in or behind a structure) that will be reflected.

2. Team fights until all or down or they surrender.

3. Killing others will happen. I suspect if you get a reputation for killing on purpose, others won't want to compete with you.


What's up... how did this turn out?


Lotta talk, no real movement. DM seems to be waiting for it to get popular....

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Seems like for something like this to really work, it would need a bit more structure than we currently have here. A dedicated website with a place to submit character builds without them being publicly visible would go a long way. Of course you could do that here just using PMs, too, but having additional structure for build vetting, ranking, and ladders would help.

I'm not a skilled enough web designer to really implement such a thing, but if someone wanted to give it a shot I could provide space to host it.

Liberty's Edge

No players have accepted the challenge that was posted in the other thread, and only one player has posted a challenge to be accepted..

Feel free to set up anything you like, anywhere you like.

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