Shadows over Westcrown

Game Master chavamana


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Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1
Zszdiirajss Maeettndar wrote:
I have a Ring of Protection +2 I would be happy to sell to another character at a discount if anyone wants it. Half list price would be 4000 gp, or make me an offer.

I'd be interested.


Male Human Mobile Fighter 14 Acrobat 2

I am interested. Or if someone who has a +1 wants to upgrade to the +2, I'm interested in a +1. Either way.


Male Aasimar Ranger Skirmisher 16
Gravlax d'Antonio wrote:
I am interested. Or if someone who has a +1 wants to upgrade to the +2, I'm interested in a +1. Either way.

I have a +1, wouldn't mind upgrading to the +2 and selling the +1 at same terms.

I believe that means buy for 4,000 & sell for 1,000.
objectively though, I think Cassian's benefit for a higher AC slightly outpoints Azhar's.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1
Azhar Mithra Amin wrote:

I have a +1, wouldn't mind upgrading to the +2 and selling the +1 at same terms.

I believe that means buy for 4,000 & sell for 1,000.
objectively though, I think Cassian's benefit for a higher AC slightly outpoints Azhar's.

Cassian has the fewest hit points, although Azhar tends to tank for us more. How should we decide this?


Male Aasimar Ranger Skirmisher 16

Cassian needs to get "up and personal" to deliver his boatloads of damage, Azhar can sometimes be mostly out of harms way.
If you don't want to take advantage, I guess Zsz could just roll a die. ...or choose, of course, since it's her item.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

Cassian will happily take advantage of Azhar's generosity.


Male Aasimar Ranger Skirmisher 16

So be it. I notice Gravlax was just kinda left on the side of the road there. Sorry.

Zsz?


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

Well, we could solve this like every other loot claim -- Gravlax has a lower one than Cassian, so it could be his (plus the 4000 to Zsz, of course). Also, with Gravlax's hit points (second highest) and AC (highest by a pretty large margin) he should be our primary tank, and a better AC helps with that.


Male Aasimar Ranger Skirmisher 16

Accept that I think he's supposed to be "mobile". Not exactly tank sop, no? I don't think any of us exactly fit the tank stereotype.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

None of us fit the stereotype, but it's a vital combat role to keep the bad guys from knocking out our big damage dealers. So we sort of have to do it in some way to keep winning.


female half-elf witch 15

All three of you pretty much tend to get in and mix it up. So my impulse would be to sell it to the person with the lowest AC/hp combo, which would currently be Cassian. But if a majority of the three of you decide that someone else should get it instead, I'll be happy to go with that.


Male Human Mobile Fighter 14 Acrobat 2

Probably it makes the most sense for it to go to Cassian from the HP/AC point of view.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

With Kevin signing off, I'm willing to pay Zsz now.


Once Cassian pays Zsz, ownership will be considered transferred.

LOOT POST - NESSIAN SPIRAL V (Lost workroom)
lyre of building (6,500 gp)

on hold: destroyed black robe of the archmagi


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1
chavamana wrote:

Once Cassian pays Zsz, ownership will be considered transferred.

LOOT POST - NESSIAN SPIRAL V (Lost workroom)
lyre of building (6,500 gp)

on hold: destroyed black robe of the archmagi

No claims

I have deducted 4000 GP from Cassian's sheet.


Male Aasimar Ranger Skirmisher 16

no claims


female half-elf witch 15
Cassian Merro wrote:
I have deducted 4000 GP from Cassian's sheet.

And I have removed the ring from mine.


female half-elf witch 15

Huh. You know, the Lyre of Building seems ridiculously undervalued to me. Someone who puts a bunch of points into Perform String (and maybe Knowledge Engineering?) could use it to build a simple motte-and-bailey castle on a hill (worth about 12,000 gp) in a single day. Or buy a vacant lot in a nice part of town, build a townhouse in a few days, probably about the same value. And then again. And again.

I realize there are other factors (have to buy the land, need someone with the right skills, Westcrown is a buyer's market rather than a seller's market for new buildings at the moment), but EVEN CONSIDERING that, is there any reason this thing isn't basically a license to print money?


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1
Zszdiirajss Maeettndar wrote:

Huh. You know, the Lyre of Building seems ridiculously undervalued to me. Someone who puts a bunch of points into Perform String (and maybe Knowledge Engineering?) could use it to build a simple motte-and-bailey castle on a hill (worth about 12,000 gp) in a single day. Or buy a vacant lot in a nice part of town, build a townhouse in a few days, probably about the same value. And then again. And again.

I realize there are other factors (have to buy the land, need someone with the right skills, Westcrown is a buyer's market rather than a seller's market for new buildings at the moment), but EVEN CONSIDERING that, is there any reason this thing isn't basically a license to print money?

Assuming we had a player (Amaya, or else someone we rented), we could pretty easily become land barons. We'd need security of course, some way to deal with the local guilds/trade unions, and a secure location for the lyre.


female half-elf witch 15

You know ... having this thing sounds kind of fun.

chavamana wrote:
lyre of building (6,500 gp)

Claim (although if there is a move to make this a group claim instead I would probably renounce the claim)


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1
Zszdiirajss Maeettndar wrote:

You know ... having this thing sounds kind of fun.

chavamana wrote:
lyre of building (6,500 gp)
Claim (although if there is a move to make this a group claim instead I would probably renounce the claim)

I'd be happy to make this a group thing, since it speaks toward Cassian's eventual goals.


Male Aasimar Ranger Skirmisher 16

I would be for it as a group project as well. If you guys would like to take the route with Amaya, we (Azhar and/or others in the party) will need to talk to her, since I do not believe she currently has Perform: String.

If Zsz is going to be the lead with it, so be it.


female half-elf witch 15

Well, it doesn't have to be Amaya, necessarily. Mathalen and Cassian probably both have perform as a class skill (as does Gravlax, now that I think on it.) Heck, Zsz could get her Perform String to +13 next level if she wanted to, which is my likely plan if this ends up being a personal claim. That isn't quite as high as it really should be for ideal use of this item, but spells and other magic items might help close the gap ...

Basically, we need to find someone willing to put the skill points in to play this, but it doesn't definitely have to be Amaya.

Edited to add: Ah, I see your edit to your post makes my post kind of redundant.


female half-elf witch 15

I believe a Lyre of Building has to be a Masterwork instrument, which would grant a +2 bonus on the roll. If so, then the ideal for a Lyre of Building would be for someone to have a Perform:String skill of +15 as soon as is feasible.

At a rough guess, if they were willing to dump most or all of their skill points into it next level:

Amaya could probably get her Perform:String up to around ~15 next level (maybe one or two lower, or maybe with a skill point or two left over, depending on her build.)

Azhar would probably need to dump in all or most skill points for a level and a half but would eventually get it to around 12.

Cassian could probably get his Perform:String up to 15 next level and have a couple of skill points left over.

Gravlax would probably need to dump in all or most skill points for couple of levels but would eventually get it to 15 that way.

Mathalen would probably need to dump in all or most skill points for couple of levels but would eventually get it to around ~12ish(?)

Zsz could probably get her Perform:String up to a max of around 13 next level and have a skill point or two left over.

Other NPCs we know probably could not feasibly get high enough.

A Circlet of Persuasion (4500 gp) would add +3 to Perform and all other Charisma-based skills.

So, that means:

Amaya could probably use it next level if she could be persuaded to dump all of her skill points into it (or most skill points and she purchases or we get her a Circlet of Persuasion.)

Cassian could probably use it next level if he could be persuaded to dump all but a couple of skill points into it (or most skill points and purchase a Circlet of Persuasion.)

Zsz could probably use it next level if she could be persuaded to dump all but a couple of skill points into it, and to purchase a Circlet of Persuasion.

The other options seem less feasible, as even with a Circlet they'd need to spend a couple of levels getting there. I personally feel that a Circlet is useful enough generally that we shouldn't necessarily spring to buy one for someone unless possibly an NPC - and I include myself in that, I'm assuming I'd buy one if it came to me - but I could perhaps be persuaded otherwise if others disagree.


female half-elf witch 15

Thinking about it, this is something I'd be willing to volunteer Zsz for. She wouldn't mind buying the Circlet -- it's useful for a bunch of her skills -- and I don't mind the idea of her dropping a lot of skill points into this next level. She doesn't have a day job and she needs a hobby. And I can think of at least one plausible in-character reason she could learn it that fast.

Obviously, if someone else wants to volunteer as well, I'd be happy to discuss.


Male Human Mobile Fighter 14 Acrobat 2

I am good with putting a group claim on the lyre. I have no interest in a personal claim on it. If Zsz wants it for herself, I am also good with that.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

If you're cool doing it, then that's fine by me. I'm willing, but it's not something I'm overly keen on since it doesn't really fit the character.


Fire Resist 10 Human Cleric 6,HP 40/40,Init+5F6R4W9,Per10AC18/11/17

Zsz needs her Fortress of Doom/Townhouse.


I'm not entirely sure why someone would need such a high Perform when the DC is only 18.

However, as for NPC current skills - Amaya had not been planning on taking Perform: string, but Mathalen already has a +5 in that skill.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

Cassian will be in charge of negotiating with the various guilds. He has some experience in that regard.


female half-elf witch 15
chavamana wrote:
I'm not entirely sure why someone would need such a high Perform when the DC is only 18.

It's not absolutely necessary, but:

1) Failing the check means stopping for the day, and you can only use the thing to build once a week.

2) A good day's work of building could mean as many as 7 checks.

A failure on one of the first few checks would be extremely annoying if we were building stuff for ourselves or on spec, and even more so if we're doing contract work for someone else. So I thought guaranteed success would be ideal if we're looking to get the best use out of it in the immediate future.

Basically, anyone can use it once a week to do the work of 100 humans laboring for 6 days. Someone with a Perform:String skill of ~+9 can probably, on average, use it once a week to do the work of 100 humans laboring for 18 days. And someone with a Perform:String of +15 can use it once a week to do the work of 100 humans laboring for 48 days.

That was enough of a benefit jump that I thought it was worth it to go all the way; others are free to disagree.


female half-elf witch 15

So ... a Lyre of Building can theoretically produce 38,400 man-hours of labor, once a week. There are pretty solid estimates that this is about what is required to produce the simplest kind of medieval timber fort (a motte and bailey castle - a wooden tower on an artificial hill, with moat.)

However, I'm having a lot of trouble finding estimates for other buildings (a cabin? a house? a mansion? a stone castle?)

Another way to look at it would be to consider the gp value. If we assume the Lyre produces the equivalent work of unskilled laborers, that's a value of 1 sp per 8 man-hours, or 480 gp worth of construction once a week. If it's "skilled" labor, that's harder to estimate, since the value is "3 sp per day and up". Assuming it's 3 sp, that's 1440 gp worth of construction per week.

Guide to Korvosa says a house costs 8,000 gp to 40,000 gp to buy, depending on whether it is a slum house or a mansion. Kingmaker rules are somewhat similar, implying that a tenement costs 4,000 gp to build, a house costs 12,000 gp, a mansion costs 40,000 gp, a watchtower (probably the equivalent of the motte-and-bailey castle) costs 48,000 gp, and a noble villa costs 96,000 gp, and a stone castle costs 216,000 gp. An argument could be made in both cases that these are "list prices" and price to build yourself might be half that (and an argument could be made in both cases against that as well.)

So putting all of those together, we're left somewhere between "it takes a single day to build a timber fort" and "it takes 17 weeks to build a hovel." Gah.

My personal suggestion would be to eyeball it and decide what's fair and not gamebreaking, maybe using the Kingmaker rules as a rough guide to scaling up? So if, for example, a hovel takes a day to build, then a house takes three days (so three weeks), a mansion takes 10 weeks, and a stone castle takes a year or so. Or if a house takes a day, then a mansion takes about 4 weeks, and a stone castle takes 4 months or so.

GM, hast thou a ruling for us?


For the prices of purchasing a property - I took the numbers from Guide to Korvosa and made a list that made sense to me for Westcrown - which is where I got the rents for the various areas of the city.

However, when it comes to purchasing the buildings, I've assumed that the cost is not just the structure but the land.

For the lyre of building I'd say a simple house would be a day, most of the stacked townhouses that are in Westcrown would be a week, a mansion about a month and a caster a few months is reasonable.

Artistry doesn't seem to be a part of it - so I'm willing to take suggestions on that part.

----

DC - I don't see anything that would prevent the person using the lyre from takeing-10 on the skill - just like you would be able to on the swim check to prevent fatigue damage.

I would say attempting to use the lyre for more than 8 hours in one use would call for constitution checks per something similar to forced march rules.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

A couple mysterious fires, or a sudden sharp increase in crime and those land prices drop.

It's a nice town. Shame if something happened to it.


female half-elf witch 15
Cassian Merro wrote:

A couple mysterious fires, or a sudden sharp increase in crime and those land prices drop.

It's a nice town. Shame if something happened to it.

It had occurred to me that, without our needing to take an active hand in it at all, a fairly ritzy area of town just, you know, EXPLODED IN HELLFIRE.

It's probably a great time to pick up some fixer-uppers for a song.

GM wrote:
I don't see anything that would prevent the person using the lyre from takeing-10 on the skill - just like you would be able to on the swim check to prevent fatigue damage.

Oh, that makes sense. Well, that makes it a lot easier, and a lot more people could handle it.

I'm still interested in volunteering, though. It sounds like fun.


Okay - So the lyre is going to be a group claim?


female half-elf witch 15
chavamana wrote:
Artistry doesn't seem to be a part of it - so I'm willing to take suggestions on that part.

Well, rules-wise, appropriate skills would likely be Knowledge:Engineering and Profession:architect (which is the most appropriate common profession listed.) Maybe DC's for whether you want it serviceable, pretty, or stunning?

For the group, which of these are we looking at using this for:

1) A money-making venture? (build or repair houses to sell)
2) Something for personal use? (build a dwelling or dwellings to live in)
3) A practical adventuring tool? (build a defensible redoubt, and/or a set of safe places and hidey-holes)
4) A long term econo-political goal? (gradually become a major force in the city of Westcrown)
5) An individual character goal? (a set of underground railroad stops for escaped halflings, a harem to hold all your spouses, a dungeon to stock with monsters, the largest pile of wood in Cheliax?)
6) Other?

Knowing what we want will help determine A) what we should do, and B) how much time we should devote to group vs. individual projects.

Zsz is mainly looking at, in rough order, a 2/5 combo, followed by a 1/4 combo.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

Cassian is mostly interested in 1 and 4, although 2 is also in there, as long as by "personal" you mean for one's sister.

I would be willing to start putting points into Engineering. Cassian got a bump to it from the book, so it could make sense that he suddenly gets it. Plus, he could be extrapolating from his not insignificant skill with making traps (+14 these days) into things that don't kill people. It's called character growth.


female half-elf witch 15
Cassian Merro wrote:
Plus, he could be extrapolating from his not insignificant skill with making traps (+14 these days) into things that don't kill people. It's called character growth.

When we get this going, could Zsz commission a couple of the ones that do kill people from you?

She likes her privacy.


female half-elf witch 15

(And it sounds like if we go with group claim and it doesn't end up being used by Zsz for whatever reason, the most sensible person to give it to given what Mana said would be Mathalen, who already has the skill.)


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

I vote for group claim. Alternately, if someone isn't cool with that, we could take the people who are okay with it, divide the claim value of the lyre by that number and add it to our claim totals.

Zszdiirajss Maeettndar wrote:

When we get this going, could Zsz commission a couple of the ones that do kill people from you?

She likes her privacy.

Totally fine. Traps are crazy expensive, though.


Male Aasimar Ranger Skirmisher 16

Azhar would also lean towards 1/4. Though looking to build an expanded Glassworks, should the political control of the area change would not be out of the question.

Profession is a class skill, so I wouldn't mind advancing it. He also has Skill Sage (two rolls, better result), if we are rolling and not taking 10.

also vote group claim.


Male Human Mobile Fighter 14 Acrobat 2

Also, primarily 1/4 (some 5/6 as well). Group claim.


LOOT DISTRIBUTION - NESSIAN SPIRAL V (Lost workroom)
lyre of building (6,500 gp) <- GROUP

on hold: destroyed black robe of the archmagi


female half-elf witch 15

Awesome. Given how people want to use it, I'd like to propose the following:

3/4 of the time, the Lyre will be used as a group business endeavor - repairing or building basically on behalf of an behalf of a partnership of investors. Since part of the goal is to expand our power and holdings in Westcrown, I would suggest that we prioritize maintaining ownership of buildings and lands and leasing them out. Doing contract repair or building work can be considered on a case-by-case basis, but ownership should be kept whenever possible.

1/4 of the time, the Lyre will be used for the personal projects on behalf of an individual investor (a home - for Tarvi - sponsored by Cassian, a dwelling for Zsz, a glassworks sponsored by Azhar, and a ... thing for Gravlax of some kind that he hasn't completely specified.) The quarter time use will continue until this round of individual projects are done, at which point whether it will be continued to be used this way, or shifted entirely to group business use, will be revisited.

Zsz is willing to keep the Lyre on her person for safety, if that is deemed acceptable. If someone else wants to keep it instead, the group can discuss. Any member of the group with sufficient Perform:String (at least +6, it sounds like) can play it for the purpose. To begin with, this will be at least be Zsz, and very likely also Mathalen. Anyone with Knowledge:Engineering, Profession:Architect, or a similar relevant skill can advise and direct.

Sound good? Sound bad?


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1
Zszdiirajss Maeettndar wrote:
Sound good? Sound bad?

Sounds good on all points. Cassian will begin putting points in K: Engineering so we have a foreman should we need it.


LOOT POST - NESSIAN SPIRAL VI (Hellscape Mirrors)
Rod of splendor (12,500 gp)
Type IV bag of holding (5,000 gp)
Staff of swarming insects (11,400 gp) [summon swarm and insect plague]
+2 returning mithral trident (10,007 gp)
minor ring of cold resistance (6,000 gp)
rope of entanglement (10,500 gp)
talisman of the twin (0 gp)
Terran-etched iron ring (guardian ring) (0 gp)

The bag of holding also contained 96,000 sp; 12,500 gp; and 960 pp.


Male Human Rogue 15/Shadowcaster 1

No claims.


Male Aasimar Ranger Skirmisher 16

talisman of the twin (0 gp) 

Claim...unless someone thinks it should be claimed as a party item.


female half-elf witch 15
chavamana wrote:

Rod of splendor (12,500 gp)

Type IV bag of holding (5,000 gp)

Claim

chavamana wrote:
Terran-etched iron ring (guardian ring) (0 gp)

According to the GM, "[This] non-magical iron ring is decorated with Terran runes ... A guardian ring is linked to a specific guardian construct golem - it allows the bearer and everyone within 10-ft to pass unmolested."

I think we'll need this at some point, whether in the Spiral or at some later time, so Zsz will claim, or claim on behalf of someone else, or the group ... I don't think it matters who wears it, but it'd be a good idea for someone to do so, PC or NPC.

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