Seekers of the Grail (Inactive)

Game Master Matt, Garnished Game Designer

Join the ranks of an expedition on their quest to recover the history of their land and to recover the artifact which saved it in times of yore. A home made Play-by-Post Campaign.


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HP 22/25, AC 20, F +4, Ref +2, W +1, Init +1

Honestly, I really don't see what's so overpowered about it. It's still a standard action to activate. Same as casting the spell.

The trade seems pretty straight forward. Someone sacrifices their action so that someone can get a +20 to hit.

It's exactly the same in terms of action economy, it just lets someone other than the wizard do the action trade.

A wizard can already make scrolls of True Strike super cheap and then give them to anyone with UMD. Why not just admit that this is a legitimate tactic and allow the item?


Urban Barbarian 1/Musket Master 2 (HP 31 | AC 20 | T 14 | FF 16 | CMD 18 | F +7 | R +5 | W +1 | Init +3 | Per +7

True strike is a bad example in my book. Since that spell only lasts for one hit, it's basically never 'overpowered' (whatever that means) in my opinion. However an earring of shield 5/day or something might be at lower levels. Yeah, the action costs are the same, but the cost is not the same in terms of character resources.

Taking a level in a casting class, or putting several levels worth of skill points into UMD is much greater price to pay in my opinion than some gold. If you can get access to any spell with an item, why have casters around at all? I mean, I'm exaggerating a bit, but hopefully my point comes across.

Also, if you do have a caster, and they make everyone super-buff items. That frees them up to spend all their actions on casting offensive spells or whatever. I mean, a world like that could certainly exist, but it would be a high-tech world (in the magical sense). Something like Eberron I suppose. I think overpowered in itself is a total fallacy since the enemies can always get stronger with a couple flicks of the DM's pen. It's more an issue of class balance and campaign setting flavor I think.

-------

All that being said, if Matt says I can have a Braclet of Shield 3/Day for 1200, I will be a happy man. Why save money for rings of protection or amulets of natural armor when I can have that? How many days do you get in more than three fights?


hp 26 | AC 17 | T 12 | FF 15 | CMD 16 | F +3 | R +5 | W +3 | Init +4 | Per +4

Truestrike is a personal only spell. Most fighter classes will be hard pressed to get a high enough UMD to make scroll using worth while. Allowing such an item basically bypasses then limits that makes the spell what it is.

Your probably right though. It is probably not that overpowered. If I was a fighter class, I'd probably be able to to find much better things to do with my turn than give myself a +20 to hit on an attack that I will most likely hit with anyway.

just my two cents.


HP 22/25, AC 20, F +4, Ref +2, W +1, Init +1

You don't even need to buy it the Wondrous Item. Like you said, how many fights do you think you'll get into in a day? Now just extend that logic.

Just pick up a wand of Shield (or true strike). Scrolls are DC 25 UMD. Wands are only DC 20.

Take the Extra Traits feat to pick up Dangerously Curious. That gives you a +4 to UMD and gives you another trait to work with on top of that.

Pick up a Masterwork Tool for UMD for an additional +2.

By the time you're 3rd or 4th level you'll be hitting that DC 20 half the time. By 6th or 7th level you'll almost never fail.


Urban Barbarian 1/Musket Master 2 (HP 31 | AC 20 | T 14 | FF 16 | CMD 18 | F +7 | R +5 | W +1 | Init +3 | Per +7

Yeah, and I'm spending 7 of my limited skill points and a precious feat to get there. Admittedly UMD is useful in many other ways, but I could also take dodge as a feat and buy potions of Shield of Faith for a much more reliable, and almost as good bonus to my AC. But both those options (yours and mine) suck because they take two standard actions (drawing item, using item). A worn item only takes a single standard to activate, costs barely more, has no limited amount of charges.

Custom items built using those prices are certainly more powerful than their core rulebook equivalents. 3/Day cure light wounds/shield/true strike/vanish/whatever other nice spell as a worn item that requires no check to activate is superior in every way to any other 1200 GP item I can find on d20PFSRD. That's all I'm saying. Look at something similar priced

Example A) +1 armor enchantment (150 to masterwork, 1000 to enchant)

Example B) Pipes of the Sewers

Example C) Dust of illusion

Example D) Bracelet that gives you whatever 1st level spell, from any class list you want, 3/day

Which one would you buy?

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I'm not saying it's wrong to allow such items, simply that it changes the intended balance of the core Pathfinder rules. If the DM is willing to work with that, then they are totally legitimate. Does that make sense?


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

Thats the base price for command word activated, IE no UMD check required.
Needing a UMD check makes things cheaper. You would be surprised at how cheap low level stuff is it's the high level stuff that gets expensive fast. Just increasing the caster level by 1 can make things expensive real quick.

Caster level 2 doubles the price of those items.
all items have spell level X caster level X (something else)

Also it's finding someone to make it too.
I can buy an item of reincarnation for cheap, but finding a druid to actually make one for me would be a tad difficult.


Urban Barbarian 1/Musket Master 2 (HP 31 | AC 20 | T 14 | FF 16 | CMD 18 | F +7 | R +5 | W +1 | Init +3 | Per +7

@ Tim - Just out of curiosity, where are you pulling these numbers from?

@ Endrian - Damn you! I've had Amazing Horse stuck in my head for days. Ever since I saw the link you put up. In fact I'm watching it right now...the 10 hour version O_O. "Then it turns back again when you tug on its winky!....mmmmm sweet lemonade yeah sweet lemonade." -goes crazy-


Male Human 3rd Paladin |HP 25/25|AC 15|CMD 16|Fort +7|R: +4|W: +4|Init: +0|Perc: -2|

I'm sorry, but someone had to spread the amazingness of that horse


Male Dwarf Cleric 2, [hp 19][AC 20][CMD 15][Fortitude +5][Reflex +2][Will +7][Initiative +4][Perception +10]

@Aldus, good point on the silent image check, although Ghost sound is automatically saved for if heard, and I'm assuming if Koldir noticed that half of the spectacle was false he'd examine the monster further. I'm pretty sure if one specifically tries to tell whether or not something is an illusion, if they have reason to suspect, that they get a save against it.


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

For the illusion I would say that paying attention to it would count as interacting, but that's just me.(aka wouldnt get a save if it was just in the background or if it blended in with surroundings with nothing drawing attention to it)

For the numbers on item crafting, 549-553 core rulebook.
One of my favorite sections.


HP 22/25, AC 20, F +4, Ref +2, W +1, Init +1

Leylyn, I'm pretty sure the lingering effects of bardsong that last after you finish performing aren't meant to be a magical continuation of the song (though that is pretty cool fluff). Rather I think it's supposed to represent lingering feelings of empowerment allies feel from having heard it.

That being said, I really like your version.


Human Witch 3 | HP 20/20
Tim Deamon wrote:
For the illusion I would say that paying attention to it would count as interacting, but that's just me.(aka wouldnt get a save if it was just in the background or if it blended in with surroundings with nothing drawing attention to it)

Would you consider yourself interacting with a computer if you were looking at it from 30 feet away? I mean there is some room for interpretation with spells but the description is very explicit in saying that no save is allowed unless interacted with. I think Koldir's assumption makes sense however, that if you succeed on the Will Save against the auditory aspect of the illusion it would make you want to take a closer look.


Male Dwarf Cleric 2, [hp 19][AC 20][CMD 15][Fortitude +5][Reflex +2][Will +7][Initiative +4][Perception +10]

Agreeing with Aldus, I'm pretty sure paying attention alone doesn't count as interaction, or there would be little point in the spell at all. If you attack the beast though, you'd get a save.


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

So trying to read whats on the computer screen doesn't count as interacting?

It doesn't matter if I am next to it or across the room paying particular attention to the computer is interacting with it cause you are actively analyzing whatever you perceive about it rather then dismissing it as background.

Regardless of whether those perceptions are visual,auditory,tactile,etc.

So yes I am interacting with a computer from 30' away IF I am actually paying attention to it, but not if I simply take note that it exists.

The point in such a spell is making a rock over your tent, so the goblins run past but don't stop to eat you because it's just a rock and they don't pay any attention to it.

Besides successfully attacking the creature would auto pass your save because you would know you hit but your blade went through with no resistance, no tactile return thus would be proof of it's falseness and auto pass the save.


Human Witch 3 | HP 20/20
Tim Deamon wrote:

So trying to read whats on the computer screen doesn't count as interacting?

It doesn't matter if I am next to it or across the room paying particular attention to the computer is interacting with it cause you are actively analyzing whatever you perceive about it rather then dismissing it as background.

Regardless of whether those perceptions are visual,auditory,tactile,etc.

So yes I am interacting with a computer from 30' away IF I am actually paying attention to it, but not if I simply take note that it exists.

The point in such a spell is making a rock over your tent, so the goblins run past but don't stop to eat you because it's just a rock and they don't pay any attention to it.

Definition wrote:
Interaction is a kind of action that occurs as two or more objects have an effect upon one another. The idea of a two-way effect is essential in the concept of interaction, as opposed to a one-way causal effect

What effect are you having upon the computer or the illusion?


male human cavalier 3 [hp 26/26] [AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +2 Dex)] [Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1 ] [Init +2] [Perception +2 ] [CMD 18]

The first and fundamental power of the Illusion school of spells is to make people argue about it ;-).


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

So it's one way but certainly not casual.

When would you get a save then? Because interacting in that fashion would simply prove it's falseness and negate the need for a save, the only time time a save would be needed is when you can't be sure of it's falseness which would be before you actually interact with it.

Please note my differentiation between seeing it and paying attention to it.

You can't interact with it in your definition anyway, you could try but you would fail.

By the way the effect I have on the computer is the computer is being analyzed.


Human Witch 3 | HP 20/20
Tim Deamon wrote:

So it's one way but certainly not casual.

When would you get a save then? Because interacting in that fashion would simply prove it's falseness and negate the need for a save, the only time time a save would be needed is when you can't be sure of it's falseness which would be before you actually interact with it.

Please note my differentiation between seeing it and paying attention to it.

You can't interact with it in your definition anyway, you could try but you would fail.

Upon interacting with it and failing your save the illusion/situation reacts (at least to your perception) as if it was real. For instance hitting a creature with a sword you'd recoil not because it has mass and force but because your mind perceives there to be mass and force behind the creature, and so your body reacts accordingly.

Reguardless, the rules clearly define the effect, whether or not it makes sense or not is irrelevant.

Tim Deamon wrote:
By the way the effect I have on the computer is the computer is being analyzed.
Definition wrote:
Effect something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin.

What result are you bringing about in the computer by analyzing it? Pressing the A key results in change, from keycap to keymatrix to the computer producing an A on the screen. Simply looking at a computer is not interacting with it just as looking at an illusion is not interacting with it.


male human cavalier 3 [hp 26/26] [AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +2 Dex)] [Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1 ] [Init +2] [Perception +2 ] [CMD 18]

Thanks for the Fortune Hex, Aldus: I have a feeling I will need it !


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

Your body cannot react properly, the recoil of hitting something cannot be produced by the hand wielding the item. I use weapons I know this, when attacking you move to follow through not to recoil so a blade not hitting something is highly noticeable.

But you can't act upon this kind of illusion in any way or form therefore according to your definition of it, one would never get a save until the point the point they would automatically pass said save. At some point one has to realize that technicalities in the case of game rules need to be taken with a grain of salt.

In this case you are allowed a save therefore it is intended that there be situations in which you might or might not realize the illusion is real, which can not be achieved by way of your technical definitions.


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

I am done with this debate, here anyway. You know my call, and I know yours, lets wait and see what our GM says for this game.


Human Witch 3 | HP 20/20
Tim Deamon wrote:
In this case you are allowed a save therefore it is intended that there be situations in which you might or might not realize the illusion is real
Silent Image wrote:
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with)

You are ONLY allowed a save if you interact with the illusion.

Tim Deamon wrote:
which can not be achieved by way of your technical definitions.

....I touch the illusion, I get a save. How is that unachievable in any sense of the word?

Sorry, last comment on the subject.


Urban Barbarian 1/Musket Master 2 (HP 31 | AC 20 | T 14 | FF 16 | CMD 18 | F +7 | R +5 | W +1 | Init +3 | Per +7

I run them like Aldus is saying. If you are fighting an illusory dragon, you don't get saves on it until it either attacks you or you attack it. If you fail your save, its illusory claw passes through your body but you perceive it as having slashed you open, see the blood, feel the pain though it didn't actually happen. If you swing at it with a sword your sword goes through it effortlessly, but if you fail your save you perceive yourself as having simply missed it as it dodges out of the way. Reality is generated within the brain. There is no computer I'm typing on right now, just a bunch of quantum field fluctuations that my brain is interpreting as a computer. Tweak the chemical content of my brain or apply certain electromagnetic fields to it and I might perceive the computer as something completely different or not there at all.

Arguing strict definitions and/or physics within the realm of D&D is pointless anyway. Photons emitted by a torch don't disappear after 40' but they do in D&D, etc etc etc. In the end it's Matt's call as with everything.

---------

One last comment. If you scrutinize a beautiful woman walking down the opposite side of the street from head to toe as she is walking past, can you then claim you interacted with her? Not unless you're a liar.


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

You touch the illusion there is nothing to feel(this illusion spell does not include tactile effects) therefore you have proof of it's falseness, free pass on will save.

Higher level illusions you are correct (except seeing yourself as hurt, the caster has to control the image, it's not in your head) but silent image is pure visual regardless of save. To believe you hit something requires a higher level spell that includes tactile illusions.


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

Jevon, only phantasms are in the mind, read the section on illusions p210.


HP 22/25, AC 20, F +4, Ref +2, W +1, Init +1
Tim Deamon wrote:

You touch the illusion there is nothing to feel(this illusion spell does not include tactile effects) therefore you have proof of it's falseness, free pass on will save.

Tim, I'm afraid you're incorrect on this issue.

Seeing something is not interacting with it. That's why looking at a trap doesn't set it off. When you see a Silent Image, you believe it. Even if it's something ridiculous you still have no proof that it isn't actually there, so you still see it. It doesn't vanish until your other senses give you conflicting information.

Here's a thread on the subject.

and a good article


Male Human 3rd Paladin |HP 25/25|AC 15|CMD 16|Fort +7|R: +4|W: +4|Init: +0|Perc: -2|
Leon the Landless wrote:

To the soldiers near him he yells "Shield men tip the wagon! Get the wounded beneath it! Archers, spread out and fire. If you're within thirty feet of another man, you're too close. Move!"

Leon leads Ithriel near to Jevon and draws his sword.

All I can think when I read this is the soldiers looking at Leon wandering off and thinking "Didn't he just tell us to spread out?"


HP 22/25, AC 20, F +4, Ref +2, W +1, Init +1

"near" does not mean "next to". :)


Urban Barbarian 1/Musket Master 2 (HP 31 | AC 20 | T 14 | FF 16 | CMD 18 | F +7 | R +5 | W +1 | Init +3 | Per +7

I love how this group argues about rule just as much as any group in real life around a table. That's something that's missing from all the other PBPs I'm in, but this one feels like a real gaming group. Albeit a huge one.


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

First, "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion." aka interaction is not the only way to get a will save. I just happen to think that paying careful attention to something equals analyzing it which equals studying it carefully.

Second, silent image has no tactile ability, only visual, therefore when you try to touch it you don't feel anything so you know it's not real thus not needing a will save to disbelieve.

"A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss"

truthfully, when it's something ridiculous one could argue that you are not convinced it is real for the simple fact that you don't believe in whatever has appeared is actually able to exist(I.E. I don't believe in fairies, etc) though you may not realize it's a spell unless you make your save(this is a grey area though)


HP 22/25, AC 20, F +4, Ref +2, W +1, Init +1

Not believing what you are seeing is different than making a save and negating the effect.

If it was as easy as "I don't believe" *saving throw*, there would be little need for spells like True Seeing.


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

Hence why you may not realize it's a spell till you get a save in the normal fashion. Sorry if I was not clear on that point.

Note that you would still see it even if you disbelieve it or make your save anyway.


Male Dwarf Cleric 2, [hp 19][AC 20][CMD 15][Fortitude +5][Reflex +2][Will +7][Initiative +4][Perception +10]

And here's *another* article on illusions with arguing!

As I understand it you can indeed get a saving throw from sight only, provided you're explicitly "examining" the object or creatures, and using actions / possibly perception checks to do so, but if you don't take that action (which would likely require good reason), then you don't get a save. In the case of the Aldus-headed thing, if someone looked at it and went "Hmm, is this an illusion?" And proceeded examine it for anything illusory, they would receive a saving throw...

All of that said (gosh it's fun to talk about rules!) I don't think there's much point in figuring this out among ourselves, Matt should probably just make a call here, and we should all go with that, regardless of our personal interpretations.


Urban Barbarian 1/Musket Master 2 (HP 31 | AC 20 | T 14 | FF 16 | CMD 18 | F +7 | R +5 | W +1 | Init +3 | Per +7

While dad's away the kiddies can play. Hehehehe. Maybe the dragon is an illusion, quick, someone look at it really closely!

Now that the dirigible is gone, what are Tim and I gonna ride in? :(

By the way Matt, Jevon liked the dirigible ride so much that now he totally wants to be an airship captain/smuggler.


Male Elf Oracle 2 / Fighter 1 (HP 17 | AC 15 | T 12 | FF 13 | CMD 14 | F +2 | R +2 | W +5 | Init +2 | Per +7)
Jevon Ryker wrote:
now he totally wants to be an airship captain/smuggler.

As soon as I read that, this popped into my head.


GM Talk
- The dirigible will be repaired. Fear not.

- I allow only already created items for now. Others must pass through my GM inspection. As such, I do not tolerate True Strike X/day type items... that's what wands are for.

- On the subject of Illusions, the Silent Image, if attacked, scrutinized or shot at would cause disbelief rolls. Simply viewing it wouldn't in my honest opinion. In any case, the ghost sounds immediately grants a will save once heard. Unfortunately, our enemies don't have enormous will and as a collective combat, failed their will saves and freaked out.


Male Elf Oracle 2 / Fighter 1 (HP 17 | AC 15 | T 12 | FF 13 | CMD 14 | F +2 | R +2 | W +5 | Init +2 | Per +7)

I'd say some of them probably need to make a sanity check.


hp 26 | AC 17 | T 12 | FF 15 | CMD 16 | F +3 | R +5 | W +3 | Init +4 | Per +4

Ha! Part 1 of 3 of Leylyn's epic tale!

oh, and I'm back and posting.


Male Elf Oracle 2 / Fighter 1 (HP 17 | AC 15 | T 12 | FF 13 | CMD 14 | F +2 | R +2 | W +5 | Init +2 | Per +7)

Leylyn, that song was hilarious.


hp 26 | AC 17 | T 12 | FF 15 | CMD 16 | F +3 | R +5 | W +3 | Init +4 | Per +4

That is only part 1! wait till next round!


Guys, Koldir is fine! For now...


hp 26 | AC 17 | T 12 | FF 15 | CMD 16 | F +3 | R +5 | W +3 | Init +4 | Per +4

Part 2! Made some changes with the song since she would have seen that before she started singing. It should have been Magma the entire time.

--

I don't remember if there is a rule for missing with an unarmed strike but still getting off the touch spell if the unarmed strike would have hit the touch.

--

Holding the charge is a legal and useful tactic.

Now using it as part of an unarmed strike may not be in the rules, but I would argue the rule of cool on this one. Cross classing a monk sorcerer is rough, and lightning fists is just plan cool. Now the missing but still getting the lightning damage off might not fly, but Tim should be able to hold the charge as long a he wants before punching someone's lights out. Just don't give him a high five until he does!


Male Human 3rd Paladin |HP 25/25|AC 15|CMD 16|Fort +7|R: +4|W: +4|Init: +0|Perc: -2|
Leylyn Rhydoc wrote:


Now using it as part of an unarmed strike may not be in the rules, but I would argue the rule of cool on this one. Cross classing a monk sorcerer is rough, and lightning fists is just plan cool. Now the missing but still getting the lightning damage off might not fly, but Tim should be able to hold the charge as long a he wants before punching someone's lights out. Just don't give him a high five until he does!

This is where I step in and Rules Lawyer... When it is specifically stated that another class (in this case Magus) gets a class based ability (Spellstrike) characters from other classes cannot replicate that.

The same goes for ignoring feat chains./rant


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

I am lost on what those are and why they should have any effect on what I am doing.

I will say that if that "spellstrike" allows it to be done in 1 round that would still be above what I am claiming to be capable of(since I require two rounds of action, 1 to cast and 1 to attack)

Not sure what feat chains I am even encroaching on either.

edit; Spellstrike allows it to be done in 1 round which is an improvement over what I can do therefore I am not able to replicate that ability.


Male Human 3rd Paladin |HP 25/25|AC 15|CMD 16|Fort +7|R: +4|W: +4|Init: +0|Perc: -2|

It also specifically draws attention to the ability to deliver a touch spell through a weapon.

As for feat chains, thats another kettle of fish entirely.


Male Human 3rd Paladin |HP 25/25|AC 15|CMD 16|Fort +7|R: +4|W: +4|Init: +0|Perc: -2|

Sorry my bad. I did some research.

Thats how it should work, but the miss is based off whether the unarmed strike hits or not. If you miss you don't get the touch.

I apologise for my hostility. It was ill placed.


Reread holding the charge to clarify things and Tim wins this one due to the bolded facts below.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

In any case, the Dragon's AC was higher than Tim's attack roll so Tim is still holding the charge. Now I've learned a new tactic.


Male Dwarf Cleric 2, [hp 19][AC 20][CMD 15][Fortitude +5][Reflex +2][Will +7][Initiative +4][Perception +10]

Aye, lightning fists wins due to rule of cool *and* I think RAW on this one. All is good, and it's good that Koldir didn't take 18 damage, and it's also good Jevon yelled out his real name, since I was trying to figure out a way to work that in without telling everybody one at a time...


M Human 1 Mnk 2Sorc [AC 16/20 CMD17] [F3R6W7] [HP16]

Matt, I am curious where you got that text. So I might poke around and point out in the future(always thought the unarmed strike bit was a house rule)


Holding the charge

So yes, awesomeness and RAW wins here meaning that Sorcerer/Monks are definitely going to be part of my IRL campaign soon.

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