Second Darkness

Game Master Tuyena

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Then there is the factor that evil is easy, good is hard.

Want to stay evil, kill a few innocents and the status quo is maintained.

But if you create undead to kill some bandits, if those undead weren't vitally integral to your success it gets bad fast. Because basically you purposefully desecrated a corpse just to make your own life easier, or to make it less dangerous for yourself. If you can do something WITHOUT necromancy, then using it at all is basically the highway to evil.

-Posted with Wayfinder


DM Tuyena wrote:

An example would be I had a Neutral Evil Oracle, and she consecrated a good God's temple that had been desecrated. A pretty ridiculously good act, she did it because it would make her lover happy.

Then a few hours later she suffocated an entire village to death. End result, still very evil.

-Posted with Wayfinder

So i would certainly agree that the oracle in question is evil, she killed alot of people for no reason there. and the concicrating an alter to a good god also a good thing, but those are intent really. I thin that just cuz i cast Infernal healing, to heal someone and help them, should not make me evil. or if i cast (there is a good spell that does tones of AOE damage that i cant find at the moment cuz im at work) to slaughter a whole village im inheritly good. magic really should not have an alignment in my opinion. power sources can, but the casting of and using magics should be based on intent.

I think the recuitment thread is the wrong place to be talking about this though really :p

and i know your arguing the rules Volk, im agruing my opinion of if these ones are really right and should be followed, lovly thing about RPGs is if you dont like some rules, you can change them. like who really rolls HP anymore? or stats? or starting gold? im sure some people do but we dont have to if we dont want too.


To be clear, casting a fireball to fight your enemys is neither bad nor evil. Using fireballs to burn down an orphanage is evil.
In those kind of spells the intent is the deciding factor.
But as soon as part of the spell is doing an evil act, like animating the dead sacrificing a child and much more is very evil. To be simpler.
If you create an undead, you create an unliving pure evil thing, so far haven´t seen a non evil undead to be created, and so it is an evil act, an evil spell and to be honest... I have even killed people in PFS by not healing them or other actions people who had an undead with them, or behaved in an evil manner. (Cannibalism? Please?)


i suppose i also think undead should not automattically be evil, negative energy is destructive certainly, but undead, being mindless, in my opinion, should not have an alignment. inteligent undead often have supernatural hungers and arnt picky about how they fill them typically making them evil.

Im a big proponent that choice detumins alot of things and i get that that is not how the system works and im not running this game so my opinion is just that, an opinion, so long as everyone is clear that i wont freak out if you dont agree with me im cool with however we run things.

Im always super paranoid about getting into arguments on the internet as tone is hard to convey >.>


I actually do agree with you Gramlag, it's just not something I bother houseruling, and since I didn't begin the game with such a house rule, I won't be implementing one.

-Posted with Wayfinder


I tend to fall on the side of "necromancy is evil." It's arguable for the spells that are in the school, but don't have the descriptor, but enslaving another's corpse to do your bidding, particularly when doing so can deny one passage into the afterlife of their choosing, does seem evil to me.


hear you loud and clear Tuyena, i should note that ive been using those house rules for so long that they feel like part of the game to me so please point out anywhere gramlag doesnt react accordingly in game, habits you know

And sabola no where in the spells does it say that you prevent the soul passage to anywhere, nor does it say that in the fluff anywhere, i always understood it more like a marionet, controlled by a soul created from negative energy at the time of casting the spell

Id argue that creating golems are more evil than undead as golems are powered by a labotomized elimental, made midnless and just a source of energy and yet not evil by the rules.


Raise Dead wrote:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell


Speak With Dead wrote:
This spell does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature.


Even True resurrection cannot raise you while you're an undead.

The act of undeadifying someone is clearly messing with them in the afterlife somehow.


perhaps it damages the connection of the body and spirit, which i would agree would be evil in a place where raising someone from the dead was more common place, it would be akin to the murder that happened. but considering the raising of the dead in perspective to the average citizen almost never happens morally i dont think it pulls the same weight. how many people get raise dead cast on them that are not adventurers?


I would find it morally objectionable regardless of the dead person's occupation. Again, somehow their soul is being messed with,

Speak with dead gets used a lot!


I would like to present my character but want the details to be clear. 20pt buy, 2 traits, with one being a campaign trait. Possible one drawback for one trait.

What level? How much wealth? I saw numbers for the recruitment in February but I thought it might have changed some.


Level three, about 800g wealth.

-Posted with Wayfinder


Personally, I think it sounds like you're being pedantic, Volk. Evil isn't just evil because it's evil. It's evil because it harms somebody in some way. The act of actually animating a body does no more harm than animating a construct. I would say that the reason the resurrection spells and such have no effect on undead is because the body is already in use, so the original soul can't go to it.


And since this seems like a great place for it, I'd really like to put my necromancer into your campaign. I find that the best roleplaying is when there's conflict between the players. If you find that unacceptable, I will find the stats to my old druid and adjust him to level three.


Alynthar42 wrote:
Personally, I think it sounds like you're being pedantic, Volk. Evil isn't just evil because it's evil. It's evil because it harms somebody in some way. The act of actually animating a body does no more harm than animating a construct. I would say that the reason the resurrection spells and such have no effect on undead is because the body is already in use, so the original soul can't go to it.

while the ton here i might not agree with ill agree with the body of it. though i should repeat, constructs are powered by labotmized elementals. far more evil IMO


Alynthar, you'll find as far as Golarion is concerned it exactly is like that. You have to remember that in Golarion, that concept such as good and evil are not abstracts but literal tangible things.

Evil spells, especially necromancy will make your character evil, thems the breaks. While I personally don't agree with this on a few points, much as I also don't agree with antipaladins compared to blackguards.

I did not set up a house rule about how spells and alignment interact.

So your necromancer is either going to end up dead via the party, or turn evil and end up dead via the party. It's just not worth the headache.

-Posted with Wayfinder


That's stupid. At no point does it say anything like that in the rulebooks. But I can't play this campaign anyway- most of the actions of my character would then be percieved as "evil," because of his willingness to torture or murder those who actually are evil, and according to your rules, that would change his alignment.


ummm, i as a good person would say that torture is evil no matter who its done on. especially in a world where one could hire a caster for zone of truth if its really that important, torture is certainly evil, or neutral at best depending on circumstance

edit:being willing to torture is the act of a neutral person, being gleeful in torture is a evil person, good would never do it, or only in the most dire "the whole town will be destroyed" circumstances


See my point? I believe that people deserve to have done to them what they've done to innocents. Usually considerably more than what they did. A rapist, for example, should (in my opinion) be tortured horribly.


Alynthar42 wrote:
See my point? I believe that people deserve to have done to them what they've done to innocents. Usually considerably more than what they did. A rapist, for example, should (in my opinion) be tortured horribly.

If in fact you feel the rapist is "evil" for doing so, then torture them for torturing the one whom was raped. The downside, is that you are just as evil for torturing them. You are condemning yourself and stooping to their level. Im not saying justice shouldn't be served or that in certain cases I wouldnt do so, (depending on the campaign of course), however I must agree with Gramlag on this one. By being okay with the use of torture is extremely evil. If no other alternative is available then so be it, but Being okay with it, or to do so so willingly as a standard procedure seems a bit like jumping the gun.


and that is the mentality of a neutral indevidual. you can play that way, just note that that is not at all how a good person thinks


See, here's the thing. I feel that they deserve it for harming an innocent. I consider myself a highly moral person- I'm actually a devout Christian in real life. But my morals are weird.


that means you are likly lawful neutal, but good people are naturally altruistic and try not to harm anyone ever, even if they deserve it. they will strike down evil but endevor to live above it and never stoop to its level. your willingness to use evil against evil makes you neutral


Well, for the record, I wouldn't actually be willing to torture somebody- not in a million years. I just feel that they deserve it, and hope that somebody else does to them what they deserve. But that's not the point. I feel that it wouldn't be evil, because it would be used on somebody who deserves it. Therefore I wouldn't be using evil against evil, I'd just be using inhumane against evil.


evil is inhumane, youd be using evil agains evil. a good person can feel like the person deserves it no problem, they would never be willing to do the deed themselves, nor even be in its vicinity. they may elect to do nothing about it if they knew it was happening though and still be good in my opinion.


I disagree. If you know that evil is happening, and you do nothing to stop it, that almost always is as bad as doing it yourself.


You're free to do so Alynthar, but perhaps this is a place at this point for the General Discussion rather than this particular recruitment thread :)

-Posted with Wayfinder


Sorry. I actually have a thread about the necromancy thing on my profile. It's a surprisingly popular debate.


Alynthar, I disagreed with you in your thread, and the one before it too.

Evil is evil. It says so right in the descriptor for animate dead.


And I disagreed with you as well. Evil is evil for a reason, and that reason isn't just "it's evil." You can't define a word using the word itself, and you can't base a philosophy on the philosophy.


Back to recruitment...based on the play and mix of the group, what would seem more important, hit points or skills?

But since the discussion is there, I think it is insightful to suggest that Alynthar is describing a lawful neutral alignment. I bet he has never thought of that, but he is saying there should be law, there should be pushishment. To hell with mercy, they get what they deserve and we will go on from there. The idea that constructs are even more evil is interesting also. Is that your perspective or your character's?


Hit points or skills.. you have to be more specific. As it will depend on what you do. If you speak of favored class thats a personal decision.


Another question. I have seen suggestions regarding the power of celestial summons. However, it depends on the DM.

"Technically, Sacred Summons cannot be used to summon anything except the few creatures that have an
alignment explicitly printed in the Summon Monster table. While the Celestial/Fiendish animals “always have
an alignment that matches yours”, it doesn't actually give them an alignment subtype."

There are very few creatures that can be summoned by a good cleric with this feat, but if applying a celestial template on them, it works great. I would have no problems with some limitations (for example, you may decide that there cannot be "celestial stirges" - even though they may be the best thing to summon - but I would like some choices. Please let me know what you think.


If it is a bloody campaign, or if you need more people fighting, I would put more into hit points. If it involves more thinking and knowledge checks and the group is already heavy with muscle, I would put more into skill points.


Well like it says any animal is kosher with it. The rest kind of had to be on a case by case basis.

I'd have to look through the lists and create like a celestial approved version, which I suppose I could do if you have a character you're consider that's going to focus on summons.

Let me know what you're planning first though.

Edit: I just went back and read through it again, I misunderstood what you were asking my apologies. Ok, so no, Sacred Summons works on what it says it works on for the purposes of standard action summons. But Summon Good Monster would allow you a much wider list to draw from.

-Posted with Wayfinder


The campaign is both I guess is the best way to say it.


@DM. The advantage of sacred summons is being able to summon as a standard action instead of a full round action. If it must be restricted I will wait until I am at a level high enough to summon those creatures.

@group. I understand the campaign is balanced, but I would shift the build depending on the character of the group.


Hang on just a bloody second. One of your characters has a wand of Infernal Healing. Infernal Healing also has an [Evil] descriptor. By your own statement, using it would make him evil.


ok, alynthar this is no longer a place for these discusions, Tuyena has kindly asked this to move to General discusion if you would like to further the matter. feel free to PM people as well if you want to keep it more private


How do you figure hit points? I am used to full points the first level, then average(for cleric 4 second level, 5 first level.

The wealth seems unusually low. Is that because I would be a new character, the nature of this campaign, or your particular style as a DM. I would love a little bit more, but this is, to my liking, much better super rich characters.


Imenda:

IMENDA (Shoanti)
(Shoanti) Female Cleric 3
NG Medium Human / Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +2
==DEFENSE==
AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +1 dex)
hp 23 (3d8+3)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +5
Armor Breastplate, Medium
==OFFENSE==
Spd 20 ft/x4
Melee Masterwork Glaive +6 (1d10+7) 20/x3 CM +1; reach; [PA]; [FF]
Melee Cold Iron Cestus +5 (1d4+3) 19-20/x2 monk
Melee Club +5 (1d6+7) 20/x2 [2HD]; [PA]; [FF]
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+3) 20/x2
==STATISTICS==
Str 17, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 12
BAB +2, CMB +5, CMD +16
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT / MEDIUM) (PFCR 118), Furious Focus (PFAPG 161), Power Attack (PFCR 131), Scribe Scroll (PFCR 132), Shield Proficiency (PFCR 133)
Skills Bluff +6, Diplomacy +7, Heal +6, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +4, Profession (shopkeeper) +6, Spellcraft +4
SQ Cleric Channel Energy [4 / 2d6] (PFCR 40)
SU Domain Powers (PFCR 40-41), Adoration (PFAPG 93), Wind Blast (PFAPG 97)
MC Cleric Bonus Languages (PFCR 41), Cleric Spontaneous Casting (PFCR 41), Forbidden Spell Alignment (PFCR 41, 49)
Traits Extremely Fashionable (Equipment) (PFCo: AdvAr 30), Fools for Friends (Campaign: Second Darkness) (PFAP: SD Companion 14), Prince/Princess (Social) (PFCo: QGttE)
Drawbacks Naive: Your perception that everyone is innately good does not bode well in the heat of battle, when less scrupulous foes might take advantage of your misguided optimism. You take a -2 penalty to AC against attacks with improvised weapons and a -2 penalty to CMD against dirty trick combat maneuvers. (PFCo:QuCa)
Languages Common, Shoanti, Thassilonian


I am new to this format. I have not yet included gear and back story yet. How does this look so far? My original had luck instead of air, but I did not want to steal the other clerics thunder. The backstory, which I will enter later, is a character that is very different from the others, but should interact very well, add a new dimension to the group, and I cannot think of any problems she would cause.

Anyone feel free to give feedback before I finish. She is the third daughter/seventh child of the head of her clan. This was thought to be very auspicious, even more so when her appearance was so striking (white hair, blue eyes, fair skin) and a local witch/hermit came into the camp proclaiming prophecies regarding this child before disappearing, never to be seen again. That is a start, more to follow.


4d10 ⇒ (8, 5, 1, 7) = 21
4d10 ⇒ (6, 6, 3, 6) = 21
4d10 ⇒ (1, 10, 1, 8) = 20
4d10 ⇒ (1, 7, 4, 3) = 15
4d10 ⇒ (9, 6, 4, 1) = 20
4d10 ⇒ (5, 8, 4, 7) = 24
4d10 ⇒ (2, 9, 6, 6) = 23
4d10 ⇒ (2, 2, 10, 2) = 16

1d6 ⇒ 5
1d6 ⇒ 2
1d6 ⇒ 2
1d6 ⇒ 6

1d3 ⇒ 1
1d3 ⇒ 1
1d3 ⇒ 2
1d3 ⇒ 1


I'm at work currently but as soon as I have a moment I'll take a look at it ktari, the wealth is low because the wealth in SD is backloaded to the end of the first book.

-Posted with Wayfinder


1d6 ⇒ 3
1d6 ⇒ 5
1d6 ⇒ 6
1d6 ⇒ 6

1d3 ⇒ 1
1d3 ⇒ 1
1d3 ⇒ 1
1d3 ⇒ 2


I made a character if you're still looking. The only thing not listed here on account of not having the resource via Hero Labs is a drawback. I went with the Pride drawback.

Dilligaff Omak:

Dilligaff Omak
Male dwarf cleric of Cayden Cailean 2/fighter 1
NG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +1 shield)
hp 26 (3 HD; 2d8+1d10+6)
Fort +7, Ref +0, Will +6; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities, +2 Trait bonus vs. mind-affecting effects for 1 hour after drinking alcohol
Defensive Abilities deep warrior; Resist fortified drinker
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk dwarven waraxe +6 (1d10+3/×3)
Ranged throwing axe +2 (1d6+3)
Special Attacks ancient enmity, channel positive energy 4/day (DC 12, 1d6)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 2nd; concentration +4)
5/day—touch of good (+1)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +4)
1st—bless, divine favor, longstrider[D], protection from evil
0 (at will)—create alcohol (ale or wine), detect magic, purify food and drink (DC 12), read magic
D Domain spell; Domains Good, Travel
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 12
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 15 (19 vs. bull rush, 19 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw
Traits fortified drinker, into enemy territory, tunnel fighter
Skills Appraise +0 (+2 to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones), Climb +1, Diplomacy +5, Intimidate +5, Perception +4 (+6 to notice unusual stonework), Spellcraft +5, Survival +2 (+4 to avoid becoming lost when using this), Swim +1; Racial Modifiers +2 Appraise to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones, +2 Perception to notice unusual stonework
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ agile feet (5/day)
Combat Gear alchemist's fire (2), alkali flask (2), holy water; Other Gear breastplate, light steel quickdraw shield, mwk dwarven waraxe, throwing axe (5), backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, compass, crowbar, flint and steel, grappling hook, hemp rope (50 ft.), mug/tankard, pot, snuffbox, tin, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, wooden holy symbol of Cayden Calean, 47 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Agile Feet (5/day) (Su) For 1 rd, you ignore difficult terrain.
Ancient Enmity +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Elves.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 1d6 (4/day, DC 12) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Cleric Domain (Good) Granted Powers: You have pledged your life and soul to goodness and purity.
Cleric Domain (Travel) Granted Powers: You are an explorer and find enlightenment in the simple joy of travel, be it by foot or conveyance or magic. Increase your base speed by 10 feet.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Compass +2 circumstance for Survival or Knowledge (Dungeoneering) to avoid becoming lost.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deep Warrior +2 Gain a bonus to AC and grapple vs. Aberrations.
Fortified Drinker +2 save vs. mind-affecting for 1 hr after drinking alchohol.
Greed +2 to Appraise to determine price of nonmagic goods with precious metals or gemstones.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs. unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Touch of Good +1 (5/day) (Sp) Grant +1 to skill checks, ability checks and saving throws for 1 rd.
Tunnel Fighter +2 Initiative and +1 critical damage while underground.


How long will the recruitment be open?

If it's still open tomorrow:

Character ideas waiting for GM approval:

Spellsage (drider(probably a no) or Skinwalker (Nightsulk))

Swordsaint (tiefling(motherless) (

with a twist:
her mother survived


Here's an updated and edited version of my character sheet.

Imenda:

IMENDA (Shoanti)
(Shoanti) Female Cleric 3
NG Medium Human / Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +2
==DEFENSE==
AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +1 dex)
hp 23 (3d8+3)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +5
Armor Breastplate, Medium
==OFFENSE==
Spd 20 ft/x4
Melee Cold Iron Masterwork Glaive +6 (1d10+7) 20/x3 CM +1; reach; [PA]; [FF]
Melee Cestus +5 (1d4+3) 19-20/x2 monk
Melee Club +5 (1d6+7) 20/x2 [2HD]; [PA]; [FF]
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+3) 20/x2
==STATISTICS==
Str 17, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 12
BAB +2, CMB +5, CMD +16
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT / MEDIUM) (PFCR 118), Furious Focus (PFAPG 161), Power Attack (PFCR 131), Scribe Scroll (PFCR 132), Shield Proficiency (PFCR 133)
Skills Bluff +6, Diplomacy +7, Heal +6, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +4, Profession (Artist- Visual Arts) +6, Spellcraft +4
SQ Cleric Channel Energy [4 / 2d6] (PFCR 40)
SU Domain Powers (PFCR 40-41), Adoration (PFAPG 93), Wind Blast (PFAPG 97)
MC Cleric Bonus Languages (PFCR 41), Cleric Spontaneous Casting (PFCR 41), Forbidden Spell Alignment (PFCR 41, 49)
Traits Extremely Fashionable (Equipment) (PFCo: AdvAr 30), Fools for Friends (Campaign: Second Darkness) (PFAP: SD Companion 14), Prince/Princess (Social) (PFCo: QGttE)
Drawbacks Naive: Your perception that everyone is innately good does not bode well in the heat of battle, when less scrupulous foes might take advantage of your misguided optimism. You take a -2 penalty to AC against attacks with improvised weapons and a -2 penalty to CMD against dirty trick combat maneuvers. (PFCo:QuCa)
[bLanguages[/b] Common, Shoanti, Thassilonian
Gear
Misc. Jewelry and fancy clothes worth 125 gp
Sling stones

Explorers outfit
Travelers outfit
Backpack
Bedroll
Belt Pouch
Bandoleer
Bandoleer has dagger, 2 scroll cases, bottle of holy water, one days rations, bag of flour, flask acid, bottle of oil(all on this list)
5 Candles
Cheap Holy Text
Flint and steel
Mess kit
Rope
Sacks, 2
Wood burning kit(for art)
Piton 4
Marbles
Iron spike
Bucket
Soap
Spell component pouch
Torches 5
Trail rations 5 days
Waterskin
Silver holy symbol

Weapon Cord
6ft wire
Twine
Signal whistle
Scroll case
Sewing needle

4 0 level scrolls
Purify Food and Drink, Detect Poison, Mending,
Create Water

4 1st level scrolls- Burning Disarm, Abadar's Truthtelling, Magic Stone, Liberating Command

Fishing kit
Fishnet
Earplugs
Chalk
Bag of Flour
1gp
17sp
8cp

backstory:

She is the third daughter/seventh child of the head of her clan. This was thought to be very auspicious, even more so when her appearance was so striking (white hair, blue eyes, fair skin) and a local, well known witch/hermit came into the camp proclaiming prophecies regarding this child. She said the girl would travel to strange places and battle evil alongside fearsome strangers, some not even human. She would have ways different from her people, even while she honored the past. Then the witch left, never to be seen again. She grew up tall and strong, as her people are, but with her shocking white hair she always stood out. As she grew up, she learned Thassilonian to honor her ancestors and learn about the great and amazing monuments from the ages past. She followed Shelyn, unusual for her people. Though a princess, having many older siblings, she was not proud or arrogant. She developed the ability to see beauty nearly anywhere, and where she could not see it, she created it, with small clay sculptures, drawings burnt into wood, and sand paintings. She was often found alone, high on some lonely hill playing her flute as the sun came up.
She had a brother, only three years older and the youngest boy, who chafed at his humble roll in the tribe. He traveled to the south and "lost his way" as his people said. He gambled and drank heavily, returning home on rare occasions. Once he came home having won a great deal and gave her a beautiful and strange weapon, a bladed scarf, which she keeps, though she does not know how to use it well. More often he would come home penniless, often beaten. A year ago he left, excited, talking about a new place where he would make his fortune. It was a city to the west, on the sea, wild and dangerous.
Just recently, she has felt her goddess calling her to go and find him. Her journey took her to the city of Riddleport.

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